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blacklisted
04-28-2006, 10:51 PM
History of the 'off-list lower phenomenon'
4/28/06
First Draft


As everyone here knows by now, we are in the midst of a sort of 'craze' caused by the importation of 'off-list' AR-15 style lower receivers. Many of us have been involved or at least 'in the know' since the beginning of this whole thing, but some of the people that came in to this later on may not be aware of the history behind this. This causes some confusion, both regarding the law and what to expect out of the Department of Justice. What follows is my recollection of important events leading up to today. You can draw your own conclusions as to what this means for the future.

I will not cover the legal issues and the court decision that makes this all possible, because Bill's FAQ covers all that. I intend to combine all of our information on off-list lowers in this post.

http://www.calguns.net/a_california_arak.htm

I will be quoting posters here and elsewhere, people from the gun industry, and of course, the Department of Justice in order to back up my points. If anyone objects to this, PM me and I will remove the reference or quote. These references will be included in the next version of this history, because it takes some time to search the archives.

If you have anything to add, please don't hesitate to contribute it.

I know where most of the information is, but it is buried in the ar15.com archives and elsewhere. Does anyone here have an ar15.com team membership, and if so, does the site archive hometown forum archive posts?

-----

August 2005

In August, 'blackrazor' received a response from the Department of Justice on a letter he sent regarding Harrott and the legality of a DSA 'ZM4' receiver. As far as I know, he did not publicize this at the time.

http://static.flickr.com/47/136752378_bf227af38f_o.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/47/136752379_b66d6f79b2_o.jpg

This letter may very well have been the first official acknowledgment from the DoJ that Harrott did allow stripped lower receivers not on the Kasler list to be imported. Note that up until this time, it appears they only allowed receivers with the magazine permanently attached to be sold, regardless of the fact that the law clearly says that a magazine is not detachable if it requires a tool to remove.

November 2005

Calguns member artherd (Ben Cannon) posts his now famous letter regarding the JP 'CTR-02'. Armed with this letter, he tried several FFLs in the area, trying to get them to transfer the rifle. Eventually, he got one to do so. Even with the letter, the rifle had to have the mag fixed out of state.
This is the letter that really started it all:

http://static.flickr.com/48/136752380_de7934c960_o.jpg

This letter, combined with the picture of Ben in a suit holding his rifle, fueled debate and speculation here on calguns, but at the time it was almost all positive. There was some debate about whether or not this was entirely legal (after all, the letter included the “58 DAs” reference). Even though this letter was specifically about the CTR-02 rifle, it was broad enough to cover ANY non-listed lower receiver. In a perfect world, this would have been enough to convince an FFL to transfer such a receiver (especially if they read and understood the applicable law). However, this was not the case.

At this time, I (and others) began to look for FFLs that would be willing to do the transfer (and of course, looking for ways to get money!). I had studied the relevant laws and they all made sense (or as much sense as this State's crazy gun control laws could have). It should be noted that I emailed Stag with a summary of what happened, and they said they would ship no problem. I don't think a manager confirmed this.

In mid-to-late November, many on calguns began to send letters to the Department about the specific lower(s) they wanted, in the hopes that they could use them to convince wary FFLs to do the transfer. This had little effect, because any FFL willing to do so at that time would have only needed to see Ben's letter.

The large quantity of letters being sent likely started a panic in the Department.. Most, if not all, of these letters were sent to Alison Merrilees.

I must confess that I sent out a letter on November 28th, but it turned out to be unnecessary.

It was some time in November that Wes (tenpercentfirearms) found out about this. At Bill's (bwiese) urging, he researched the topic. Soon after, he decided to sell lowers at the San Jose gun show! Needless to say, a lot of people were excited, because he was the first FFL to really sell these.

blacklisted
04-28-2006, 11:01 PM
December 2005

Before and during this time, nobody really thought that we would be able to register these as assault weapons and later configure them the way they are intended to be. We were always careful not to call these 'AR-15 receivers'. They were (and are) .223 self loading rifle receivers. I prefer to call them 'AR-15 style' receivers.

The big thing that happened in December was definitely the San Jose gun show. Wes from Ten Percent Firearms drove all the way to San Jose from Taft, and was at the show for 2-3 days.

He took some pre-orders before the show, and was selling Stag, Sun Devil (billet), Fulton, and possibly DSA receivers. I don't remember exactly what was sold, but his prices were good, and they were selling fast. He even had to move his table to a secluded corner of the building because the line was blocking the view of other tables!

During the show, an agent from the Department of Justice (Ignatius Chinn) showed up and answered some questions. He then exclaimed, “they're going on the list”. When asked how long, he replied “two weeks”. Remember, at this point this was quite a shock. We figured they might list some day, but it would probably take a year or so.

This caused quite a bit of excitement, as it seemed like things were going our way.

It seemed that way, but it was not to be. One after another, Wes' suppliers backed out. He was forced to cancel orders because he could not deliver the product. He eventually did get around 100 Stags in, and the earliest orders were fulfilled (those that paid in full before the show). Also around this time, his new store was audited by the Department of Justice, and some Superior lowers with the “auto” markings (SEMI-AUTO lowers) were seized. Having passed the audit, but being drained physically, Wes decided to cut his losses and pull out of the lower game (for now).

Wes continued to help people find receivers even after he stopped selling them himself.

The reason that manufacturers and suppliers were backing out was that throughout the entire month of December (and later), the Department was calling and intimidating out of state manufacturers, suppliers, and dealers. They were given ominous warnings (over the phone, rarely in writing) about California's 58 district attorneys, and some were allegedly lied to. It is not clear whether it was agents, desk clerks, or attorneys that made these calls. Whether they were lied to or not, the strategy worked. Soon, it seemed that nobody wanted to deal with us. Even some dealers here were convinced that we were all going to jail.

Here is a letter from Fulton Armory, explaining why they canceled Wes' order, and why they requested that he send back the ones they had shipped (or they would report it stolen):


Hi XXX,

We [Fulton Armory] called UPS today and requested that they return back to us the shipment of 100 receivers we sent out last week to you.

If for any reason UPS delivers them in error, Fulton Armory demands that you return all 100 of them back to us. We will credit your credit card the moment the receivers are received by us, as well as reimburse you for standard ground shipping, handling and insurance. If they are not returned, we will call the CADOJ and list them as stolen.

ATF allows that any licensee may refuse to sell to anyone, for any reason. I so now refuse to sell our lowers to you.

The California DOJ called me today and informed me that even though our receivers are technically legal for sale in CA, we __could__ still be prosecuted by any of the over 100 DA's in California. An essential fact that you withheld from me in our communications. Had I been aware of this critical information, and that there was some legal dispute, I would have never shipped these receivers to California.

As mentioned earlier today via our phone con, the second 100 receivers that you ordered will not be shipped.

It seems these days, there is legal, and then there's "legal". Who knew. Who can know these things?

A copy of this email will be faxed/mailed to the CADOJ.

W. Clint McKee
Owner
Fulton Armory
Clint@fulton-armory.com
http://www.fulton-armory.com


After that happened, a lot of people that thought they were getting lowers had to look elsewhere. This was the beginning of the group buys. Because of the DoJ intimidation, these had to be covert. The first group buy in my area was by a user here (Mud), but it was soon integrated with a group buy started by artherd and Scatch Maroo. This first buy was set up in secret.

User 6172crew also set up group buys, and continues to help people out.

Obviously, despite the "two weeks" comment, nothing happened. There was no new list. However, there was internal DoJ activity during this time.

Dale Ferranto, the Assistant Director of the firearms division drafted a provisional list, dated 12/20/05:
http://calgunlaws.com/Docs/ASSAULT%20WEAPONS/Articles/commision%20changes.pdf

For more information on this, and other things that happened in the DoJ during the month of December, visit www.calgunlaws.com.

blacklisted
04-28-2006, 11:01 PM
January 2006

January was mostly a series of organized group buys.

The first group buy that was arranged in late December started in early January. Fulton Armory receivers were sold (the ones that Wes would have received). This was done at an FFL in Milpitas, and it went smoothly. The next three or four group buys also went smoothly; Lauer Custom Weaponry and Ameetech lowers were sold along with others.

Ben did not make any money off of these buys. In fact, he lost money. He merely provided a source for people to get them from and provided a brief personal loan, and they were legally transferred by a willing FFL.

Ben attempted to get some Wilston Tactical WT-15s in, but that did not go well. These are made by the son of the guy that makes Wilson Combat lowers (which are banned), but they are done so under a separate 07 FFL, and are NOT banned. The DoJ said they were banned, and they had to be sent out of state to avoid potential prosecution. Since then, some FFLs have managed to legally sell Wilson Tactical WT-15s..

Also during January: Bill wrote his excellent FAQ (I believe the first draft was in December) in order to help those that were new to understand everything. It has been quite successful (when people notice it).

February 2006

Some time in early February (might have been in late January, I will confirm), the DoJ 'audited' the Milpitas FFL. During their 'audit', the lowers were seized for 'safekeeping'. Their reason was that the FFL's safe was too small to hold all the receivers he had on the premises.

The same day (or the day after), the FFL went out and bought a new safe. The DoJ refused to return the receivers, and still does so. However, firearms seized that were NOT part of the group buys can be returned if you fill out a LEGR (Law Enforcement Gun Release) form (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/awguide.pdf).

The Infamous February 1st memo:
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/ar15notice.pdf

The DoJ released a memo (which was posted on calguns before it even came out!) in which they stated their intention to add these lowers to the list (and AW Identification Guide), and that they will create a new category of assault weapons, which must be registered but still comply with the 'features' restrictions. The first version of this memo contained numerous errors (such as incorrectly citing Harrott, and of course some believe that the whole memo is an error. :D For some reason, they can not provide any criminal charges that you could be charged with by “violating” such a policy, and instead state that they will invalidate your registration in order to charge you. With your registration invalidated, then you could be charged with possessing and transporting an unregistered assault weapon. This memo created a lot of controversy, and continues to this day to be a topic of heated debate.

March 2006

The 'lower craze' really hits the mainstream this month.

A variety of out of state manufacturers and suppliers are shipping to CA direct. Stores such as Cold War Shooters are providing tons of receivers to the state. They realize that they aren't going to jail, and that they can actually make some good money off of this.

More Information:

Changing Language in the DoJ letters:

DSA – ZM4 – 8/4/05 – Alison Merrilees (see above)

“You should be aware that all DSA receivers, including the ZM4, will soon be added to the list of weapons that are considered “assault weapons” under California law. After the list is published, owners will have 90 days to register their firearms, pursuant to PC 12285.”

JP Rifles – CTR-02 - 9/28/05 – Alison Merrilees (http://static.flickr.com/48/136752380_de7934c960_o.jpg)

“You should be aware, however, that the JP rifles CTR-02 is virtually identical to rifles that are now listed as assault weapons by the Department, and may be considered an assault weapon in the near future.”

Stag Arms - Stag 15 - Lisa Strange – 12/5/05 (http://static.flickr.com/51/136764514_a26d32ee26_b.jpg)

“...you should be aware that the Stag-15 lower receiver is virtually identical to rifles that are now listed as assault weapons by the Department, and is likely to be considered an assault weapon in the near future.”

Stag Arms - Stag 15 - Alison Merrilees – 12/28/05 (http://static.flickr.com/52/136764604_a2d02b6f50_o.jpg)

“...you should be aware that the Stag-15 lower receiver is virtually identical to rifles that are now illegal assault weapons. You should also be aware that we intend to add it soon to the DOJ Assault Weapons Identification Guide. Therefore, the Stag-15 will soon be classified as an assault weapon.”

More letters regarding off-list lowers and other assault weapon related matters:

http://calgunlaws.com/Docs/ASSAULT%20WEAPONS/Articles/letters060220.PDF

Possible reasons for the delay in updating the list:

When the Department finishes drafting an updated list, they must submit it to the Attorney General, where he can have it published in the CCR (California Code of Regulations).

When it is updated, you will see it announced in the notice register, located at http://www.oal.ca.gov/reg_notice.htm.

This seems like a simple process, and it probably is. However, there are complications that delay the process. One complication is that every time they think they have everything on the list, something new pops up. It seems that they could just browse ar15.com and look at the list that has just about everything out there, but I believe there is a reason they do not. The reason is that they have to verify the existance of each receiver that is banned, which probably means getting at least one of each for themselves (after all, they do have an FFL), and photographing it.

Besides recordkeeping reasons, the lowers are photographed so that they may be added to the Assault Weapons Identification Guide (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/awguide.pdf), a guide for law Enforcement so that they may know what is banned.

Since this has not been updated since 2001, and since the current version has many problems (it conflicts with the Harrott decision), this is quite a bit of work.

Another possible reason is that they are stalling, desperate for new legislation to support the February 1st memo, or something more sinister. Only time will tell.

---------------------------------------

More coming soon:

List of “good” stores/dealers and manufacturers + socal group buy history

information on fixed mag methods, and how they differ from commercially sold lowers by Vulcan

April

A comprehensive list of receivers that have been sold, along with pictures

nosewitdot
04-28-2006, 11:10 PM
talk about in depth, good job.

EBWhite
04-28-2006, 11:10 PM
dont forget the shirts and mouse pads and cws so cal group buys of Jan 06...

blacklisted
04-28-2006, 11:11 PM
dont forget the shirts and mouse pads and cws so cal group buys of Jan 06...

Don't worry. I don't know much about the socal group buys, but if you or anyone else has any information, please post it and I'll add it when I finish the other sections I'm working on.

Meat
04-28-2006, 11:29 PM
That's a great story. Fascinating reading, nicely written. The only question is...do we get a happy ending?

Meat
04-28-2006, 11:30 PM
That's a great story. Fascinating reading, nicely written. I can't wait to read the rest. The only question is...do we get a happy ending?

shopkeep
04-28-2006, 11:56 PM
All I can say is that I'm so proud to have been a part of all this. It's not every day that one gets to participate in such a historic event... even if it is only really a moment that affects a small audience and not the general population.

blacklisted
04-28-2006, 11:57 PM
All I can say is that I'm so proud to have been a part of all this. It's not every day that one gets to participate in such a historic event... even if it is only really a moment that affects a small audience and not the general population.

Do you want me to mention your interaction with Iggy at the gun show? :D

xenophobe
04-29-2006, 12:07 AM
Excellent rundown. If you like I could get you the date we first started selling receivers... I think we placed our first order in the second week of Jan... in any event, nice history.

blacklisted
04-29-2006, 12:08 AM
Excellent rundown. If you like I could get you the date we first started selling receivers... I think we placed our first order in the second week of Jan... in any event, nice history.

That would be nice, I'm definately including you guys.

I'm also making a list of all stores that are currently willing to transfer / sell receivers, and those that offer accesories.

shopkeep
04-29-2006, 12:15 AM
That would be nice, I'm definately including you guys.

I'm also making a list of all stores that are currently willing to transfer / sell receivers, and those that offer accesories.

It would be a good idea to put together all that information in a sticky for the new folks. Yeah, I used to be paranoid about giving out that kinda information but by now the DOJ already knows who the key players are anyways. Heck I wouldn't be surprised if both you and I had folders on us down there.

blacklisted
04-29-2006, 12:17 AM
Of course, I wont mention any dealers that have not publically stated that they are selling these (basically, nobody that didn't post a for sale thread).

accordingtoome
04-29-2006, 1:30 AM
that was neat.. thanks man i learned a lot :D

Ford8N
04-29-2006, 5:29 AM
Of course, I wont mention any dealers that have not publically stated that they are selling these (basically, nobody that didn't post a for sale thread).


There is a bunch of FFL's that sell and transfer AK/AR's but wish to remain below the radar.

jmlivingston
04-29-2006, 7:50 AM
The first group buy that was arranged in late December started in early January.

There were group buys that were earlier than this, I know of at least one in SoCal that occured with individuals taking possesion of receivers in December.

John

tenpercentfirearms
04-29-2006, 10:30 AM
This has inspired me to type a new chapter in http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=29636. Look for it later today.

blacklisted
04-29-2006, 11:34 AM
This has inspired me to type a new chapter in http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=29636. Look for it later today.

I was looking everywhere for that! Everyone should read it.

blacklisted
04-29-2006, 3:33 PM
There is a bunch of FFL's that sell and transfer AK/AR's but wish to remain below the radar.

I'm sure they are. That's why I'm not creating a "bad" list, just a "good" list. :D

Ryan HBC
04-29-2006, 3:44 PM
April 2005

Calguns user Ryan HBC completes his third, and most potent AR Build. His home commando arsenal has reached an unprecedented high. Balance has once again been restored.

Ford8N
04-29-2006, 3:58 PM
I'm sure they are. That's why I'm not creating a "bad" list, just a "good" list. :D

Yes, they are the good people. Spreading the "faith".:D

kenc9
04-29-2006, 8:02 PM
Very well done! *****This should be a sticky****

That should be required reading before new members are allowed registration.

-ken

Pthfndr
04-29-2006, 8:37 PM
Good write up. You detailed everything quite well.


But you did leave out one thing under this heading.

Possible reasons for the delay in updating the list:

One other reason could be that the DOJ has no legal obligation to update the list since once SB23 went into effect the law made it a crime to configure any rifle as an assault weapon. Therefore rendering the Harrot decision moot. - As far as the law is concerned. Public opinion may dictate other action.

blacklisted
04-29-2006, 8:50 PM
Good write up. You detailed everything quite well.


But you did leave out one thing under this heading.



One other reason could be that the DOJ has no legal obligation to update the list since once SB23 went into effect the law made it a crime to configure any rifle as an assault weapon. Therefore rendering the Harrot decision moot. - As far as the law is concerned. Public opinion may dictate other action.


I actually thought about including that, but I figured that with their constantly saying that they are adding them, it wouldn't make much sense. The problem is that these are already considered to be AR-15 receivers, and unregulated ones at that. If the public knew that people are buying tens of thousands of AR-15 receivers that can be built illegaly, I'm sure they would call for a ban (even though the current law is enough for most of us).

blacklisted
04-29-2006, 11:02 PM
I had had also come to the conclusion that it was POSSIBLE that they would list these some day, and it was my reason for buying them. I didn't think they would do it anytime soon, and I don't remember anyone else thinking so either (at least until Iggy's visit to the gun show). I didn't want a permament fixed mag lower such as the FAB-10 or Vulcan, but I sure did want a few of these. I have to dig through the old discussions and see if anyone thought before the gun show that they would list soon.

I didn't realize that I put "nobody thought they would list them", I'll change that when I update tomorrow. I actually meant to say that nobody thought that they would be banned any time soon (that I remember). Even the letters I posted from August and November say that they would be listed, or might be. I don't think we knew about the blackrazor letter at first though, but he turned up pretty early (much of that is buried on the ar15.com hometown forum).

As for the other buys (and the search for FFLs), I need more information on that. I remember you and others talking about driving all over and frantically searching for willing FFLs, but I am not that clear on the details. Most thought that they would be listing very soon. Perhaps you could give some more information on that? I'm especially interested in the early CWS sales.

I am going to have to add a section on that search for FFLs, because I almost got involved in it before the group buy organized. That was a nervous time.

I disagree. From the very beginning of these discussions (very late November, right around Thanksgiving, or early December, but definitely before the gun show), at least I (and probably many others) had come to the conclusion that it is extremely likely that the DoJ will list them. For me, that was the MAIN reason to buy them: The first time in many years there was a way to purchase something that with high likelyhood will soon become an assault weapon. Now clearly, in the unlikely case that the DoJ did not list, that wouldn't be a desaster either - it was already clear back then that we would end up with fixed-mag (or non-pistol-grip) rifles.

The big thing that happened in December was definitely the San Jose gun show. Wes from Ten Percent Firearms drove all the way to San Jose from Taft, and was at the show for 2-3 days.

(describing the situation in late December, after the infamous San Jose gun show with Iggy's appearance)


What you are writing is indeed true. But it ignores an important aspect: At the same time as the DoJ was intimidating the biggies, many of us were individually cleaning out all remaining stock of lowers that was held by willing dealers. And through a network or referrals, we were able to find those willing dealers, and find FFLs in California willing to do the transfers. For example, I spent much of the time between Christmas and New Years searching for lowers (after much effort, I managed to find 4 Stags and 2 Fultons), and locating the two FFLs within driving distance who were willing to DROS them. One of the first dealers inside California at that time was our own Pirate14, long before he went public (website and posts) about offering lowers.

In your history, you only talk about Wes and the group buys; you ignore the efforts of lots of individuals who got hundreds (or maybe thousands) of lowers into the state, probably depleted the stocks of lowers at nearly all smallers dealers, but probably also convinced many FFLs and out-of-state dealers that participating in importing lowers into California will not immediately cause the sky to fall on your head (to quote Asterix), in spite of the DoJ's empty threats.

Other than these minor nits, the history is wonderful.

tenpercentfirearms
04-30-2006, 1:05 AM
The next chapter is finished. I don't know when I will get the motivation to do another one.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=281967#post281967

Dont Tread on Me
04-30-2006, 6:35 AM
Blacklisted, your original post would make a great Wikipedia artcile!

Forever-A-Soldier
04-30-2006, 8:10 AM
Blacklisted... Great read! After tracking the issue from Iraq in December (returning stateside in late January) I was able to finally locate a local dealer who was willing to do OLL transfers in March. Thanks again to you and all the others who "put it out there" in the early days to help start the movement to regain a bit of Freedom back here in the PRK. Many of my fellow soldiers from our unit who returned with me in January from Baghdad, are buying or looking to buy soon, their own OLLs. We have all of you to thank for that.

F.A.S. Out

QuickOnTheDraw
04-30-2006, 8:24 AM
Very well done! *****This should be a sticky****

That should be required reading before new members are allowed registration.

-ken
I agree, mandatory reading prior to registration. Great write up, thanks to all who helped make this happen.

PIRATE14
05-01-2006, 12:16 PM
I'll have to try and put something together to add to your history files......my favorite was my CODE WORD......SCORPIO.

People had to mention the code word or I wouldn't talk to them about recivers. This was mid Dec time frame.......

Jeff Rambo
05-01-2006, 12:25 PM
Good write-up, but there is no reason to make this mandatory reading for people signing-up. No offense, but this is not offlistlowers.net. This is Calguns and not everyone is here for lowers.

blacklisted
05-01-2006, 12:40 PM
I'll have to try and put something together to add to your history files......my favorite was my CODE WORD......SCORPIO.

People had to mention the code word or I wouldn't talk to them about recivers. This was mid Dec time frame.......

Scorpio? :D

6172crew
05-01-2006, 1:33 PM
We had code words over at our setup also, I remember the first guy I sent over to my CoCo county FFL thought we were going to roll him and take his $$.

I was sure the DOJ had plants that were going to bust my FFL so we had all kinds of hoops to jump through and even now I wont print his name/number on the net.

There was a post not too long ago making fun of the way we had it setup and I still laugh when I think about what was said in response.

.....Good write up BL'd;)

PIRATE14
05-01-2006, 1:37 PM
Good write-up, but there is no reason to make this mandatory reading for people signing-up. No offense, but this is not offlistlowers.net. This is Calguns and not everyone is here for lowers.

They're not here for lowers...........damn!!!!!!!

tenpercentfirearms
05-01-2006, 1:50 PM
LOL. We never had code words. Maybe everyone else had code words because of all the grief I went through. That is so funny. Really the whole thing is pretty funny now that the pressure is off. I don't remember laughing a whole lot back then though.

grammaton76
05-01-2006, 1:50 PM
I'll have to try and put something together to add to your history files......my favorite was my CODE WORD......SCORPIO.

People had to mention the code word or I wouldn't talk to them about recivers. This was mid Dec time frame.......

Blacklisted - you should add into December's entry that Pirate started openly selling lowers out of his back yard after he posted it on Calguns around then. I drove up to Highlands that very night with my roomie to start DROS on my first receiver. :)

Man, that was the coolest thing ever - I took a 1.5-2hr road trip to buy lowers off of a picnic table in a guy's back yard at 9pm at night, and it was all legal!

tenpercentfirearms
05-01-2006, 1:54 PM
Man, that was the coolest thing ever - I took a 1.5-2hr road trip to buy lowers off of a picnic table in a guy's back yard at 9pm at night, and it was all legal!
Same experience here except I bought 25 except he cut me a good deal and let me skip the 10 day wait. Cash and carry, I walked out with a box full!

blacklisted
05-01-2006, 2:00 PM
Blacklisted - you should add into December's entry that Pirate started openly selling lowers out of his back yard after he posted it on Calguns around then. I drove up to Highlands that very night with my roomie to start DROS on my first receiver. :)

Man, that was the coolest thing ever - I took a 1.5-2hr road trip to buy lowers off of a picnic table in a guy's back yard at 9pm at night, and it was all legal!

Give me a little more information about it, and I'll add it when I do the update.

Right now I'm trying to scrape up the money to buy another lower!

bwiese
05-01-2006, 2:02 PM
LOL. We never had code words. Maybe everyone else had code words because of all the grief I went through. That is so funny. Really the whole thing is pretty funny now that the pressure is off. I don't remember laughing a whole lot back then though.

Yeah, Wes, codewords are superfluous when you take out a table at the gunshow and print up flyers about off list lowers and have a line of 25+ people snaking around your table ;)

You brought the most action/interest/etc. to the now-dying SJ gunshow I've ever seen since 2000.

I only wish I were there on that Sunday to see the 'Iggy swoop' there.

On the Sat of that SJ gunshow, the local NRA rep guy (Mike Schrader??) was going apoplectic. I at first had a hard time figuring who he was at first - thought he was just a vocal blowhard - since he was wearing a stained T-shirt, and was not really putting on a 1st-rate "rep" appearance. He kept screaming bloody rape about the off-list lowers thing and clearly didn't know details about 12276.1 'by features' guns. I tried to talk sense into him but it was useless.

However, Mike Schrader MAY have been the guy that called Don Kilmer in, not sure.

On Sunday I kept calling Wes (girlfriend was dragging me around shopping) just to see how he was doing. My buddies - who had a booth there selling odd lots of garage-sale whatnot that'd be banned at any respectable gunshow - kept calling me late Saturday and on Sunday, reporting rumors saying the 'red headed AR guy' was gonna get busted.

I knew otherwise, as Wes and I had got some nice supporting paperwork organized the week before.

PanzerAce
05-01-2006, 9:54 PM
reporting rumors saying the 'red headed AR guy' was gonna get busted.


whoa. Sorry to hijack the thread for a moment, but its good to know that it was another red head that was giving the DOJ so much trouble. I guess we decendents of the Pict tend to do that to people :D

rorschach
08-10-2006, 4:24 PM
Havent seen any updates to the OLL history thread

blacklisted
08-10-2006, 5:41 PM
Havent seen any updates to the OLL history thread

Maybe there will be now that you reminded me...:D

xenophobe
08-10-2006, 7:25 PM
lol... I forgot to get the date. However, I'm pretty certain SJGE was the first retail store to actually stock lowers that weren't preordered or group-buy. Our involvement proceeded in the few weeks after 10% showed at the SJ show... That sure caused a big stir...

tacticalcity
08-11-2006, 1:10 PM
I got charged $100 over retail by the Gun Exchange in San Jose for a Lauer lower. It pissed me off but I just drove 3 hours to get there and they were the only place I could verify actually had lowers for sale.

Is there a list of FFLs in Northern California selling off-list lowers? Anybody near Sacramento?

I don't want to pay $100 extra just because the guy is a greedy (changed the word to be more accomodating to PanzerAce).

ATTN: PANZER ACE...

FIRST: Not liking getting screwed on the price, does not make me a bad person. So take a chill pill.

SECOND: The original poster promised a list of local FFLs selling off-list lowers at the end of his very helpful string of posts. This post, is a reminder that we would greatly appriciate him doing so. That makes this the CORRECT place to post this request.

THIRD: They can still make a profit selling at $139 (the highest price I found online). Hell, I've seen them priced at $89. So my complaining about the fact that they refused to tell me the price over the phone, encouraged me to drive 3 hours (which I told them in advanced I would have to do when asking for their prices) and then over charging me by $100 is more than reasonable for me to do and I do not deserve your getting puffy with me about it. That is called PROFITEERING my freind. Shame on you for defending them for doing it.

FOURTH: The purpose of this forum in to educate people about all things related to guns in California. Relaying a BAD experience fits in nicely. People should know upfront that they will be over charged by shopping there. If they are the only source for lowers, people will still pay it. But making this fact public does not warrant your flaming me.

LASTLY: I appriciate that the Gun Exchange has the courage to sell lowers. They should be applauded for doing so. However, they should be very ashamed of over charging people by such a large amount. It's just plain wrong.

Man, did you tick me off! You just poored salt into an open wound. But I'll drop it if you will!

By the way, I still need that list of FFLs near Sacramento that are willing to transfer or sell lowers if anybody knows of any. There has to be more than one place in Northern California doing it. I am certain the other Forum members will appriciate it.

PanzerAce
08-11-2006, 1:18 PM
tactical, it is clear from the one post you have just made that you will not fit in on this forum. The SJGE is a for profit business, it is not there to give handouts. Further, the SJGE has been great to all of us since the beginning of this OLL situation, and people dont take kindly to insults to good people.


Oh, and was it really that hard to read the thread title and realize that this was not the correct place to post this?

odysseus
08-11-2006, 4:06 PM
Thanks for this, it is really good to have it layed out. I have been a long time lurker and sometime poster on calguns, and it's nice seeing it layed out in this way. For me a lot of the OLL debate has been getting confusing as of lately.

For one: I am still wondering on building out an OLL rifle from a lower and how best to do this. It's so fuzzy on whether it's about using the "gripless" kits or going with some locking of a 10 rnd mag with a pistol grip, their doesn't seem to be sound footing on anything other than they both seem within acceptable DOJ constraints, although no opinion is made. Or am I wrong?

tacticalcity
08-11-2006, 4:15 PM
I agree with the last poster...this is a very helpful posting. I really enjoyed it (UNTIL I GOT FLAMED!)

I also agree that all the confusion over what is and is not a legal grip is very frustrating.

There are a lot of unsettled questions. I'm not sure if that is a good or a bad thing...since more than likely when it does get settled we won't the final answer.

This is a very frustrating place to be a gun enthusiast!

But this forum has been an amazing resource for finding answers to 90% of my questions. And I am grateful!

grammaton76
08-11-2006, 4:21 PM
For one: I am still wondering on building out an OLL rifle from a lower and how best to do this. It's so fuzzy on whether it's about using the "gripless" kits or going with some locking of a 10 rnd mag with a pistol grip, their doesn't seem to be sound footing on anything other than they both seem within acceptable DOJ constraints, although no opinion is made. Or am I wrong?

Well, I would point this out:

The DOJ is trying to redefine definitions, etc, and trying to ensure we can't use fixed mag kits.

However, one of their letters more or less endorsed gripless builds.

So, if you want to be on the totally clean, no paranoia needed side, then buy either an SRB or a Monsterman grip, use no evil features, and shoot it.

odysseus
08-11-2006, 4:38 PM
So, if you want to be on the totally clean, no paranoia needed side, then buy either an SRB or a Monsterman grip, use no evil features, and shoot it.

I see. So "pistol gripless" gets rid of one of the sb23 features so a working mag release is fine. That's the confusing bit, since it seems an interesting card for them to seem to focus on the pistol grip as an issue when a lot of indication before is that the removable magazine really is hard for them to swallow.

ohhh the woes of being a legal gun owner. :rolleyes:

tacticalcity
08-11-2006, 5:33 PM
No...you have to do more than just remove the grip! The grip is just the most inconvient part of making it legal. That's because it is the most functional, and noticable part that has to be removed.

There are tons of articles on this...it would take to long time to explain it all. Here is a short version.

For simplicity sake, lets just talk about an AR-15 style rifle...

1) It cannot be banned by make and model.

2) If the magazine is removable it cannot have...

(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon (nobody knows for sure what is legal and what isn't here).
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.


Here is a link to the exact law...
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/sb23.htm

Here is a link to the law listing what is banned by make and model regardless of its features...
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/aw.htm

There is a lot of debate about which alterations make it Senate Bill 23 Compliant.

Most interpretations say Muzzle Breaks and Compensators are legal alternatives to flash hiders, and there are plenty of examples on other makes of rifles to support this line of thinking. They also make versions with just a straight barrel and nothing on the end.

Very few people would want a thumb hole stock, but almost everyone wants a pistol grip. Frankly, I'm not all that happy with the alternatives people believe are legal...but what are you going to do? The only alternative I've seen anyone infactly claim is legal is "The One Minute Fix" of chopping off the grip inline with the bottom of the trigger guard. But good look getting the DOJ to admit it is legal.

There are plenty of fixed length stocks on the market. Even ones that look like the telescoping ones. However, just to be extra cautious I recomend the standard A2 stock so there is no confusion.

There are lots of kits to bolt on the magazine. The DOJ is having a meeting next week that could result in them changing the language of the law to say that it must have a "PERMENTLY" attached magazine to have all the other "nasty" features that make the rifle fun to own (like I said the grip is the one most people care about). I fear this will make rifles with the bolt on kits illegal. But who knows...maybe it won't. It's tough to know for sure. Maybe they will publicly say the bolt on kit is enough...but I doubt it. Current interpretation says that if it requires a tool to remove it, then it is legal. But this has not, to my knowledge, been openly admitted by the DOJ either. Most of this, is we the people, trying to make sense of a very stupid law and stay out of trouble...while still being able to own a very fun and reliable rifle.

The honest truth is, the DOJ has no clue what is and is not legal. Their policy and opinions change like the wind. Get the right guy on the phone, and you'll hear an answer you like...get the wrong guy on the phone and he'll go as far as to lie to you and tell you all lowers are illegal. They have no clue, and it makes it hard for us to know.

grammaton76
08-12-2006, 1:20 AM
I see. So "pistol gripless" gets rid of one of the sb23 features so a working mag release is fine. That's the confusing bit, since it seems an interesting card for them to seem to focus on the pistol grip as an issue when a lot of indication before is that the removable magazine really is hard for them to swallow.

ohhh the woes of being a legal gun owner. :rolleyes:

Correct. This assumes, as Tacticalcity goes in depth on, that your rifle is already an otherwise compliant OLL make/model, and that you've installed no other evil features (as I'd mentioned earlier).

I don't like hacksawing pistol grips, just due to the precedent that DOJ set back in 2000 or so(?), going after a company that was hacksawing them. There's a bit more to it than that, but they DID approve the original "tumor" stock, which was this abomination attached to an A2 stock. The Monsterman grip appears to be significantly more ergonomic than the Tumor. I won't say it is for sure, because I haven't handled a Tumor - but I do own a Monsterman.

So, like I said... get an OLL, don't build it with evil features, use an SRB or MM grip, and be happy.

artherd
08-12-2006, 12:15 PM
Wait for my book once the SOL runs out :)
(Hi stator)

avidone
11-10-2006, 9:27 PM
This thread needs updating! The history and future continues!!!!

6172crew
11-11-2006, 5:29 AM
This thread needs updating! The history and future continues!!!!

I stickied it for 24 hours if BL wanted to update.

heyjak
11-11-2006, 11:30 AM
Thanks, Blacklisted, for posting this. Very informative!

Dont Tread on Me
11-11-2006, 11:35 AM
Anybody thought of turning this into a Wikipedia article? If you look up AR15 on Wikipedia there is a paragraph about the issue. I think the issue and the DOJ's clumsy handling of it should be documented in detail for all to see.

xenophobe
11-11-2006, 11:42 AM
I got charged $100 over retail by the Gun Exchange in San Jose for a Lauer lower. It pissed me off but I just drove 3 hours to get there and they were the only place I could verify actually had lowers for sale.

You should have saved yourself the trip and you shouldn't have purchased anything if you weren't comfortable with the price.

This isn't a flaming thread.

This isn't a legal discussion thread.

This is a history thread.

IF you wish to do either of the former, please start a new 'rant' thread. If you wish to add 'historical data' to this thread, please continue.

blacklisted
11-11-2006, 3:45 PM
I'll be updating this soon. I'll also provide more detail than I did before.

John S
11-12-2006, 9:38 AM
I'll be updating this soon. I'll also provide more detail than I did before.

February should be interesting. I look forward to your take on the Milpitas fiasco. ;)

HeHateMe
11-12-2006, 9:19 PM
I'm still waiting to see how the Milpitas incident will play out. I guess that will be an open chapter.

grywlfbg
11-13-2006, 1:46 PM
Could someone check the link to Bill's FAQ? It's not working. Maybe it didn't get moved in the site xfer?