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View Full Version : San Jose FFL, UPDATE: Question on DROSing parts


qtrxist
08-07-2010, 5:08 PM
I did try search but came up nada.

Anybody recommending anybody? or has tried any?

thanks in advance.

PS. its gonna be from FFL or non-FFL if possible, firearm is on CA DOJ roster.

mariodesmo
08-07-2010, 7:31 PM
Roger's Relics
645 Clara Vista Avenue
Santa Clara, CA 95050-5150
(408) 247-5379

Very nice people, call first!
It's a home business.

qtrxist
08-09-2010, 1:41 PM
Thanks!

I called and spoke with Roger. Really nice guy. Straight forward, gave me tips on how to do things the right way.

Would highly recommend them to anybody too.

EDITED.

tenpercentfirearms
08-09-2010, 1:52 PM
Thanks!

I called and spoke with Roger. Really nice guy. Straight forward, gave me tips on how to do things the right way.

Would highly recommend them to anybody too.

You are officially the worst searcher in history if you looked and didn't find Roger's Relics right off. :p

I believe he is the best transfer dealer in the state.

qtrxist
08-09-2010, 3:25 PM
give some slack to newb man:surrender:o:)

other than that, i should be transferring all my business to him, not that i do much but anything to help. does he do only transfers? he said its a residential place so im not sure. i didnt ask either. i should.

qtrxist
08-12-2010, 9:38 AM
UPDATE:

so im getting a CZ SP01 9mm out of state with .22 conversion kit (Kadet). i was told by my dealer she can DROS the SP01 but not the Kadet because its not on the DOJ list.

my side: AFAIK, Kadet is a conversion kit, its only a part. not a firearm.
dealer side: if i change the topend to .22, it will render it illegal because it is registered as 9mm. Also the Kadet has a serial number, needs to DROS.

i called DOJ, they said it is fine but they need the dealer to call. if this wont work, i have to pay the shipping back to now an FFL, not the seller. and the seller may have to pay FFL fees to get the item. plus i paid for that item already.

any help will be greatly appreciated.

thanks!

tenpercentfirearms
08-12-2010, 10:26 PM
UPDATE:

so im getting a CZ SP01 9mm out of state with .22 conversion kit (Kadet). i was told by my dealer she can DROS the SP01 but not the Kadet because its not on the DOJ list.

my side: AFAIK, Kadet is a conversion kit, its only a part. not a firearm.
dealer side: if i change the topend to .22, it will render it illegal because it is registered as 9mm. Also the Kadet has a serial number, needs to DROS.

i called DOJ, they said it is fine but they need the dealer to call. if this wont work, i have to pay the shipping back to now an FFL, not the seller. and the seller may have to pay FFL fees to get the item. plus i paid for that item already.

any help will be greatly appreciated.

thanks!

You need to be a little more clear. Did you order the complete CZ SP01 as a 9mm? If so, then yes it is rostered.

If the .22 kit comes separate, then you are fine. If the .22 kit comes with the gun and it has a different SKU with the kit than one without the kit, that is kind of gray and your dealer might not be off base.

If the 9mm is just a 9mm and the kit is sold separately and you just happened to order it at the same time, then that is fine. Even if the kit has a serial number on it, that does not necessarily make it a firearm.

Next, you can legally put the .22 conversion kit on it all you want once you take possession of it. It does not matter that it was registered as a 9mm.

Finally, the dealer should not have to send the firearm back to another FFL if the firearm is sent directly to the person who sent it. Or did we have this discussion before and technically you are supposed to send it to a dealer. Me personally, I would just say the guy sent it to me to gunsmith and I am sending it back. If someone asked, "Wasn't that gun for qtrxist?" I would tell them no comment and talk to my lawyer.

Who is this transfer dealer you are talking about? If this she is Lisa from Roger's Relics and you are having a hard time with them, let me know and I will call and talk it over with them dealer to dealer. I am not promising anything, but we have a good working relationship and we can weigh the pros and cons and I can get some more details.

qtrxist
08-13-2010, 8:06 AM
Thanks for the reply 10%FA,

Yes, i bought the CZ SP01 as a whole firearm, in 9mm and it came with the Kadet kit as a package. This item is used and it was sent by the seller himself (non-FFL). I do not think the Serial number on the Kadet Kit has to be identical to the SP01 right? because it is only a part.

I was thinking i should've just paid extra for shipping so the Kadet would just be sent to me and the SP01 to the dealer.

And yes, it was Lisa who I spoke to. She admitted it was her first time handling conversion kits. Last time i spoke to her was yesterday morning, i wonder if she got a hold of somebody from DOJ, but i would appreciate it if you have time and give her a ring to clarify things about this. If she isn't comfortable doing this transaction i was PM'ed by a fellow CG (FFL) that he can do it for me.

Thanks tenpercentFA.

EDIT: i did try to PM you but i guess you had it disabled.

kemasa
08-13-2010, 10:15 AM
Wes, even if the conversion was part of a package with a different sku, it does not matter as it is the model of the firearm that matters, not whether it was sold with additional items. If the firearm is a different model, then it would be an issue.

The serial numbers of non-firearms do not matter at all. The conversion kit is not a firearm unless it replaces the receiver, in which case the receiver is a separate firearm.

qtrxist
08-13-2010, 11:40 AM
So i called Lisa again and she is very insistent that the Kadet is illegal to use with the CZ SP01 9mm BECAUSE of different serial numbers. She advised me that if i change the top-end to the .22 conversion kit, being with different serial number, that makes it illegal here in CA since it is not on the LIST.

I cant argue with her because she seems to know more than i know, but the frustrating part is i know for one that conversion is LEGAL and i dont have any proof. Her point is even if the conversion is NON-dros'able, once the top-end goes in, its no longer on the LIST and it is illegal and she doesn't want to be responsible for releasing it.

well, that left me no choice but to transfer it to a different FFL, Dachan, fellow CGner. Nice guy, very informative. thank you all for the reply and help.

kemasa
08-13-2010, 11:57 AM
What is her phone number? I am willing to call her and see if I can talk some sense into her.

Clearly, she does not know what a firearm is. The Sig P250 would have serious issues if what she thought was true, as well as the .22LR conversions that Sig sells. Also, any firearm, like the P229, would be an issue since the caliber would not match what it was sold as.

paul0660
08-13-2010, 12:00 PM
I was thinking i should've just paid extra for shipping so the Kadet would just be sent to me and the SP01 to the dealer.

YEs.

kemasa
08-13-2010, 12:04 PM
Separate shipping would have been easier, but in this case there is really no real issue. If the FFL would call the CA DOJ and/or the BATF, they should get the right answer. They should know the answer in advance as it is a simple issue with what a firearm is and the transfer process. Under the concept, it would be illegal to put any item on a firearm which has a serial number since it would not match the firearm.

There are some firearms which have the serial number on the slide and the barrel. You can replace those without an issue, other then perhaps value.

qtrxist
08-13-2010, 12:08 PM
Kemasa, thank you for the offer. Her phone number is on the 2nd post. I prefer you NOT to call now since i have talked to a different FFL and he is willing to pick up the item and transfer it to his book. When i mentioned about using a different FFL she was very okay with it actually.

Thank you for the help.

kemasa
08-13-2010, 12:16 PM
No problem, but she should be educated. BTW, even if he picks up the item, he needs to get the letter from the DOJ.

qtrxist
08-13-2010, 12:20 PM
No problem, but she should be educated. BTW, even if he picks up the item, he needs to get the letter from the DOJ.

What letter? Is this additional requirement?

kemasa
08-13-2010, 12:30 PM
The CFLC, required when "shipping" a firearm.

qtrxist
08-13-2010, 12:59 PM
The CFLC, required when "shipping" a firearm.

oh ok. i guess David/Dachan (the other FFL) knows about this already. He only mentioned picking it up from the other FFL.

thanks!

tenpercentfirearms
08-13-2010, 9:47 PM
If you haven't changed your dealers yet, give me until tomorrow to call and talk to them. I think I can get this cleared up for you and educate them at the same time.

Even dealers have to learn somewhere. The laws of this state aren't easy.

TripleT
08-14-2010, 7:17 AM
As has been posted, the easier thing to do all the way around would have been to have the conversion sent directly to the op. Another reason to do this is the dealer is going to have to charge sales tax on the conversion as well as the CZ.

I guess I need to get rid of the .40 (wrong serial #) barrel I have for my P229 .357 sig. Oh and I recently sold a P225 that had a barrel with the wrong serial so that would be a problem also.... Obviously what Lisa is telling you is wrong on a number of different levels but if it's store policy then getting it to another FFL was the right move.

jtmkinsd
08-14-2010, 10:45 PM
Some FFL's operate under the assumption that ANYTHING with a serial number needs to have a DROS done on it. It's a CYA thing...lol

When you confront them with the hypothetical of a complete handgun with different serial numbers on the frame and slide for instance and ask them which number they DROS, after they get the hazy look in their eyes and you snap your fingers to bring them back, they should answer the number on the frame...because that is the ONLY number that truly matters on a handgun. All other numbers are simply for the "matching serial number" nuts out there.

tenpercentfirearms
08-15-2010, 6:32 AM
If you haven't changed your dealers yet, give me until tomorrow to call and talk to them. I think I can get this cleared up for you and educate them at the same time.

Even dealers have to learn somewhere. The laws of this state aren't easy.

I got busy with IDPA and didn't get a change to call them. I will call them today and just sent them an e-mail.

tenpercentfirearms
08-15-2010, 6:40 AM
Wes, even if the conversion was part of a package with a different sku, it does not matter as it is the model of the firearm that matters, not whether it was sold with additional items. If the firearm is a different model, then it would be an issue.

I would like to agree with you kemasa, but you and I know that not all guns come with a model number on them that matches the CA list even though that has to be the gun they mean. Ruger revolvers, FNH FiveseveNs, and a few other handguns can only be identified by the numbers on the box, not the gun.

We know that in the grand scheme of things unless the DOJ is right there setting you up, they would never have a clue what you DROSed is what it was. I can still understand why it gives some dealers pause and until it goes through court, it could be a gray area.

kemasa
08-15-2010, 7:58 AM
Wes, I agree with the issue of KNOWING what the model number is and it is much easier if you have the box to confirm the model, but that is not a requirement and could get you in trouble since unless you know that the firearm in the box is actually the firearm that was originally shipped in the box, you could accidentally transfer a firearm that is not on the list.

You can always identify the firearm by itself, it is just not easy. You can call the manufacturer and get the specific model number based on the serial number.

Based on the serial number, the DOJ could confirm what was transferred by calling the manufacturer. I doubt that they would do that unless they had a reason to, but it certainly can be done.

Hopefully the court cases will clear things up by removing it all.

qtrxist
08-15-2010, 10:27 AM
Thanks to all who have volunteered to call Roger's Relics, but as of last night it was transferred to Dachan/David, fellow CGner, and FFL. So I'm waiting for my 10-day req't now.

I know each one of you wants to inform them that it is legal to process it, dealer to dealer go right ahead and make my experience an example, but in all means I'm not saying anything against Roger/Lisa. They are still a great FFL, this is just one of those things.

Thanks for all your help.

tenpercentfirearms
08-15-2010, 1:18 PM
I talked to them today and Lisa's main concern is she had no way to prove in a he said/she said that the gun DROSed was in CA Approved condition when it was DROSed. She knows conversion kits are legal, she just doesn't want something to come back and bite her later. Really, that could be said of all the handguns we DROS unless you take a photo of it or some other such thing.

My solution was to add something on the bottom of the sales receipt that customers sign stating that in the case of a handgun, the customer certifies that they are taking delivery of the handgun listed on the receipt and that they confirm it was on the CA List of Approved Handguns for Sale or exempt at the time of DROS start and delivery.

I think the OP summed it up best at the top somewhere where he said that the less the receiving FFL knows and receives, the better.

This state has everyone gun shy. Pardon the pun.

kemasa
08-16-2010, 9:59 AM
The DROS is submitted with the serial number AND caliber of the firearm, which is proof that is what is being transferred. One way to deal with it is to have the person pick up the conversion part at the start, then it is clear that the only thing delivered is the firearm as specified.

If that is not good enough, then nothing is. You can sign all you want, but the person could claim that was done to make it look good.

tenpercentfirearms
08-16-2010, 5:00 PM
The DROS is submitted with the serial number AND caliber of the firearm, which is proof that is what is being transferred. One way to deal with it is to have the person pick up the conversion part at the start, then it is clear that the only thing delivered is the firearm as specified.

If that is not good enough, then nothing is. You can sign all you want, but the person could claim that was done to make it look good.

True, but it would be one more piece of paper to back up your claim.