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View Full Version : FYI - So now California controls commerce in other states?


wayno
08-06-2010, 3:55 PM
I have a second home in rural Arizona. I have a PO box, and a drop ship address in the nearest town. Ordered some 30rd mags for the M4 to be deliverd in AZ. Brownells rejected saying can't deliver to PO box.

OK I respond, use my drop ship address. Brownell's now asks for a Law Enforcement letter head. Sorry, I'm not a LEO, just an increasingly surprised citizen. I send a copy of Property Statement proving I'm a lawful property owner in AZ with a lawful PO and a lawful drop ship address.

Brownell's response:

The main question is what is the billing address for the credit card you are using? If itís the California address, the order will be restricted no matter where it ships per California penal code 12020 section 12079 (a). As long as the billing or shipping address is located in California, we cannot ship any magazines over 10 rounds.

So California now dictates interstate commerce between an out-of-state supplier and an out of state customer???

So changing a billing address is one phone call....but Jeeez. Brownell's is great, not faulting them at all, but I think interstate commerce is taking a hit here.

kaiserworks
08-06-2010, 4:15 PM
Brownells has had that policy for a while. Use 44mag.com for your mag purchases.

safewaysecurity
08-06-2010, 4:21 PM
Brownells has had that policy for a while. Use 44mag.com for your mag purchases.

Doesn't matter though because it's stated in california law. That makes sense actually. GOOD FIND!! YOu could use this to sue but it wouldn't really effect much.

Roadrunner
08-06-2010, 4:28 PM
Just make you billing and shipping address in Arizona. I don't see them verifying addresses with the credit card company.

Fate
08-06-2010, 4:33 PM
Just make you billing and shipping address in Arizona. I don't see them verifying addresses with the credit card company.

Huh wha? Most online retailers match billing address to CC. It's pretty standard anti-fraud policy.

Roadrunner
08-06-2010, 6:03 PM
Huh wha? Most online retailers match billing address to CC. It's pretty standard anti-fraud policy.

Can't you change the address on the CC ? If he has a res in AZ, that shouldn't be a problem.

wayno
08-06-2010, 6:30 PM
I had the address changed in 2 minutes after Brownell's sent me the explanation. Easy to do. A phone call. But why should I have to.

The transport of "illegal" 30 round mags had zero to do with Kalifornia. The product ships direct. The point is that not only is Kalifornia a pain with ill concieved and useless laws, this state now interferes with commerce outside of it's borders....based upon where a CC bills? Sorry for the rant. :(

MikeR
08-06-2010, 6:32 PM
Just call your CC co.and have them add your AZ address to your account. Worked for me.

Ron-Solo
08-06-2010, 6:38 PM
Just call your CC co.and have them add your AZ address to your account. Worked for me.

This is what I did. I often stay long term with my daughter and also have things shipped there.

Since I'm a LEO, I can get some things non-LEO folks can't, but it is a major PITA. These stupid laws do nothing to prevent crime and need to go away.

Many companies verify addresses with the cc company to prevent fraud rather than CA's anti fun laws.

adrenalinemedic
08-06-2010, 6:51 PM
I bought PMAG's in Iraq from Brownells, and had them shipped there.

My billing address was in CA.

They initially froze the order, until I emailed them from my AKO and asked them to look at the SHIPPING address.

My order shipped the next day.

Does the Penal Code have exception for deployed .mil? If not, then Brownell's is selectively/overzealously enforcing policy.

xLusi0n
08-06-2010, 7:06 PM
CheaperThanDirt has the same policy.

pat038536
08-06-2010, 7:44 PM
I don't see where it says 'if the billing address is in CA, retailers can't ship to non-CA addresses'


CA Penal
12020. (a) (2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.

12079. (a) Upon a showing that good cause exists, the Department of Justice may issue permits for the possession, transportation, or sale between a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 and an out-of-state client, of large capacity magazines.
12071. (a) (1) As used in this chapter, the term "licensee," "person licensed pursuant to Section 12071," or "dealer" means a person who has all of the following:
(A) A valid federal firearms license.

Cokebottle
08-06-2010, 7:51 PM
CheaperThanDirt has the same policy.
CtD is over the top.

They won't even ship SB23 featured PARTS into California... pistol grips, VFG, flash hiders...

Sportsman's Guide is just as bad, but different.
SG shipped me a knife that CtD wouldn't, but they won't ship quad rails.

dantodd
08-07-2010, 9:22 AM
Would be interesting to speak with Brownell's legal dept. and find out if they've received a letter from DOJ regarding this. If so it could be a case of underground legislation. If not I wonder if DOJ would respond to a letter of inquiry regarding California residents possessing large cap magazines out of state.

ElCUBANO
08-07-2010, 9:52 AM
Sportsman's Guide has the same policy I tried to get some mags shipped to my home in Florida and they refused as my billing address is in Kalifornia.

Fate
08-07-2010, 11:15 AM
Can't you change the address on the CC ? If he has a res in AZ, that shouldn't be a problem.

Yeah, he can add the AZ address to his CC as previously mentioned, but claiming the AZ residence as the billing address when it's not linked won't (typically) work.

thomasanelson
08-07-2010, 11:26 AM
The Communist/Socialist/anti-American/anit-freedom/totalitarianists running CA will do anything they can to infringe upon your rights including intimidating out of state retailers.

SoCal Gunner
08-07-2010, 11:32 AM
Just throwing this out there: What about "Gift Card" style Visa? There is no billing address on those, you already paid to load it.

packnrat
08-07-2010, 11:38 AM
or just pay up front with a money order.


:TFH:


.

ke6guj
08-07-2010, 12:33 PM
Just throwing this out there: What about "Gift Card" style Visa? There is no billing address on those, you already paid to load it.

and with some/many of those, you can go online and assign a shipping address to the gift card so that any merchant systems can match the shipping address on the order to that of the "gift card".

kalalp
08-07-2010, 5:15 PM
Just throwing this out there: What about "Gift Card" style Visa? There is no billing address on those, you already paid to load it.

I like this idea.:cool:

BigDogatPlay
08-07-2010, 5:42 PM
So California now dictates interstate commerce between an out-of-state supplier and an out of state customer???

Regulation of interstate commerce is the sole and exclusive responsibility of the federal government. There is a mountain of case law to that effect. If retailers are that scared of a law that does not apply outside of California, I'd say there is grounds for a class action in federal court.

My $0.02....

tonelar
08-07-2010, 6:04 PM
This reminds me of the Las Vegas gun stores that won't sell std caps to CA visitors. Nothing to do with CA DOJ, it's just them being d*cks.

I have not ordered from TSG or CTD in years because of their policies.

joedogboy
08-07-2010, 6:33 PM
I'm guessing it has to do with potential for fraud. Not necessarily credit card fraud, but the CA DOJ considering it a "straw man" purchase to have a CA resident (identified as such by billing address) send something banned in CA to an out of state address. The assumption is probably that you will then sneak it into CA.

Of course, it is unreasonable for them to do this, and exceeds their authority.

What if you are simply buying a gift for a friend/family member in a free state?

POLICESTATE
08-07-2010, 6:39 PM
California's jurisdiction extends to all of its residents regardless of where they are. You want to buy a handgun on Mars? Too bad! Want to ship some stuff you can't have to a banana republic in South America? Nope!

And to qualify as a California resident all you need to do is either live here or get paid from a company in California. That's right, you can live and work (let's say you telecommute from your home office to California) in Oregon but if the company you work for is in California guess what, you are a California resident and you'd better file every penny you make with California's Franchise Tax Board or they're going to be coming for their cut of your their money!

Yeah check this out, I was living in Oregon for a time, had a house, moved back to CA (had to go where the work was) and rented an apartment while I rented out my house. Then I sold the house and paid taxes on the sale both to the Feds and to the state of Oregon. 3 years later I get a letter in the mail from CA that they want their money for the sale of the house. I appeal, takes them 6 months to respond and tell me they don't care about Oregon they want their money.

I call up Oregon, guess what, I can't file for a refund on the taxes I paid them because of a 3 year statute of limitations. So I paid taxes to Oregon and now I pay to California. Look up the residency requirements for California, it's a bit shady, and then when it comes to taxes, they don't care where you made the money, they want their cut.

POLICESTATE
08-07-2010, 6:44 PM
I'm guessing it has to do with potential for fraud. Not necessarily credit card fraud, but the CA DOJ considering it a "straw man" purchase to have a CA resident (identified as such by billing address) send something banned in CA to an out of state address. The assumption is probably that you will then sneak it into CA.

Of course, it is unreasonable for them to do this, and exceeds their authority.

What if you are simply buying a gift for a friend/family member in a free state?

Doesn't matter, there is no reason in Sacramento.

BigDogatPlay
08-07-2010, 9:21 PM
California's jurisdiction extends to all of its residents regardless of where they are. You want to buy a handgun on Mars? Too bad! Want to ship some stuff you can't have to a banana republic in South America? Nope!

A firearm, I can see, even though I disagree with it. A magazine, however, is not a firearm and a disassembled magazine is (according to California) parts. California's laws in this respect, not the least of which is the forthcoming AB962, are illegally regulating interstate commerce, IMO.

And it needs to be litigated to put an end to these kinds of abuses... and the taxation hell you put up with.

plan-b
08-07-2010, 11:14 PM
I think Midway & CDNN both ship to free states even if the CC billing address is in CA.

Vectrexer
08-07-2010, 11:21 PM
I know my last CDNN order shipped to another state with no problems related to the mags.