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View Full Version : Saiga 7.62x39 bullet guide and 922r


frankm
08-05-2010, 7:10 PM
Ok, I'm reading 922r and if you don't convert your firearm to a non-sporting configuration, it seems to me that you can use a bullet guide as long as you only use 10 round magazines. Tell me how I'm wrong?

CSACANNONEER
08-05-2010, 7:13 PM
The thought is that once a bullet guide is installed, the gun would no longer be for "sporting purposes" since, it would BE CAPABLE of accepting +10 round mags.

JeffM
08-05-2010, 7:15 PM
Installing a bullet guide modifies the rifle to accept and function with military magazines, a feature deemed "non-sporting" in/around 1994.

frankm
08-05-2010, 8:13 PM
Are u sure? That would be like saying I "could" put a pistol grip stock on it, but you don't know if I will. MY question is, if I only use 10 round clips, and never insert a bigger one, am I not in compliance? In the section below, if I only use 10 round clips, it looks like I meet the bolded definition.

Section 922(r), of Title 18, U.S.C. prohibits assembly of certain semiautomatic rifles from imported parts. The implementing regulations in Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) section 178.39(a), provide that no person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d) (3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.

rrr70
08-05-2010, 8:15 PM
The thought is that once a bullet guide is installed, the gun would no longer be for "sporting purposes" since, it would BE CAPABLE of accepting +10 round mags.

Saiga 5.45 capable to accept and use mil magazines without any mods.:eek:

frankm
08-05-2010, 10:01 PM
Is there any case law, or ATF letters, or something that states how this works? Everyone says you can't do it, but I'm wondering "why" everyone says that since the 922r section is not clear.

JeffM
08-05-2010, 10:59 PM
Saiga 5.45 capable to accept and use mil magazines without any mods.:eek:

They do not feed 100% reliably.

Saigas may be able to accept a pistol-grip, but only modification, ie drilling out rivets and removing the plate covering the area.

Adding features deemed non-sporting (including inserting a large-capacity magazine designed for the Saiga) violates the current interpretation of 922r.

Unlike the CA DOJ, the ATF is actually quite helpful if you have the chance to talk with them (under benign circumstances). Unfortunately due to the thousands of questions they are asked (and asked again and again and again) they may not answer your particular question, but refer you back to the relevant US Code.

gun toting monkeyboy
08-06-2010, 7:53 AM
I don't know guys. There is nothing in 922(r) that says high cap mags are non-sporting. This debate has been going on for some time, and last I checked, there was no clear ruling. Just a lot of FUD on both sides. Here in CA, it is perfectly legal to use high cap mags for hunting rifles. So by our own state's definition, a saiga with a 30 round mag would still be a sporting rifle. In all truth, I wouldn't stress about it. There has been what? One prosecution of a 922(r) case? If it stresses you out, go ahead and swap out enough parts to comply. I swapped out the Op rod and use a US made magazine to get mine officially legal. But I don't know if it was really needed.

frankm
08-06-2010, 8:06 AM
From what I'm hearing, it's not certain that putting in a bullet guide will violate 922r if I only have 10 round clips. Everyone refers to 922r but keeps saying "if you insert a high cap mag". Which I have no intention of doing. But it also sounds like the ATF "could" play hardball if they catch me with a bullet guide. I wish there was one definitive answer to say "it's illegal because of xxx".

SJgunguy24
08-06-2010, 9:56 AM
From what I'm hearing, it's not certain that putting in a bullet guide will violate 922r if I only have 10 round clips. Everyone refers to 922r but keeps saying "if you insert a high cap mag". Which I have no intention of doing. But it also sounds like the ATF "could" play hardball if they catch me with a bullet guide. I wish there was one definitive answer to say "it's illegal because of xxx".

I hashed this out with another guy a couple days ago.

The "Sporting/Unsporting" term is like "Assault Weapon". It's way to put a label on something they want to restrict.
The way 922r works is that rifle is imported in that particular configuration for a reason. That reason being the US government (in the Clinton era) Didn't want any EBR's to be brought into the US. So to effectively ban them from import they came up with this "Unsporting" B.S.
If that rifle is taken out of the configuration it was imported in, it then needs to comply with 922r.
The factory Saiga skeleton stock doesn't trigger 922r because they are imported with those installed. They are also imported so AK mags will not lock or feed reliably. When you alter the mag catch and or install a bullet guide, you have now taken that rifle out of the imported configuration. Same goes for mags holding more then 10 rounds. It is imported with 10 round mags and using any mag holding more then 10 rounds triggers 922r.

I got one for you guy's, the WASR 10 is imported as a single stack semi auto that has 10 round mags. Century cuts the mag well to accept standard AK mags, but guess what, they install enough US parts to comply with 922r, that same way we do. The simple act of opening up the magwell will trigger compliance issues, the same as installing a bullet guide.


Here is the law for you to read. Remember "Unsporting" is B.S., it's to keep the cool stuff out of the country.

(r) It shall be unlawful for any person to
assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic
rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited
from importation under section 925(d)(3)
of this chapter as not being particularly
suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting
purposes B.S. except that this subsection
shall not apply toŚ
(1) the assembly of any such rifle or
shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed
manufacturer to the United
States or any department or agency
thereof or to any State or any department,
agency, or political subdivision
thereof; or
(2) the assembly of any such rifle or
shotgun for the purposes of testing or
experimentation authorized by the Attorney
General

SJgunguy24
08-06-2010, 9:58 AM
I don't know guys. There is nothing in 922(r) that says high cap mags are non-sporting. This debate has been going on for some time, and last I checked, there was no clear ruling. Just a lot of FUD on both sides. Here in CA, it is perfectly legal to use high cap mags for hunting rifles. So by our own state's definition, a saiga with a 30 round mag would still be a sporting rifle. In all truth, I wouldn't stress about it. There has been what? One prosecution of a 922(r) case? If it stresses you out, go ahead and swap out enough parts to comply. I swapped out the Op rod and use a US made magazine to get mine officially legal. But I don't know if it was really needed.

In bold, is that hunting rifle a foreign made semi auto that would be illegal to import with a hi cap mag?

motorhead
08-06-2010, 10:04 AM
sporting config for a particular weapon is determined when import license is issued. any deviation from this brings 922r. it varies considerably from gun to gun or even time to time or phases of the moon. the standard atf will use is how the gun was configured for legal import.

SJgunguy24
08-06-2010, 10:15 AM
sporting config for a particular weapon is determined when import license is issued. any deviation from this brings 922r. it varies considerably from gun to gun or even time to time or phases of the moon. the standard atf will use is how the gun was configured for legal import.

You know this, I know this. I have to give examples so others can get the jist of the law. "Unsporting/ sporting" whatever, it's a word to CONTROL what we can and can't play with.
If it's been changed from the way it sat in the box when it arrived in the US, 922r kicks in.

frankm
08-06-2010, 10:39 AM
<< the standard atf will use is how the gun was configured for legal import.>>

So this seems like the real problem.

SJgunguy24
08-06-2010, 10:45 AM
<< the standard atf will use is how the gun was configured for legal import.>>

So this seems like the real problem.

IMO the problem is a government for the people doesn't mean the government to control the people.

They work for us, we grant them their power and yet they all seem to forget that. We need to remind them.

Shotgun Man
08-06-2010, 12:54 PM
[...]
Same goes for mags holding more then 10 rounds. It is imported with 10 round mags and using any mag holding more then 10 rounds triggers 922r.

[...]


So if I put a 30-rd Saiga 7.62 x 39 magazine into my otherwise stock Saiga, I'm violating 922(r)?

I'm surprised they even sell them then.

bwiese
08-06-2010, 1:31 PM
Should be easy enough to drop in enough US-mfgd FCG parts and at worst add some US mag floorplates & followers.

No more 922(r) issues.

SJgunguy24
08-06-2010, 1:37 PM
So if I put a 30-rd Saiga 7.62 x 39 magazine into my otherwise stock Saiga, I'm violating 922(r)?

I'm surprised they even sell them then.

The surefire 30's are 3 us made parts. You slap on a Tapco hand guard and your good.

IMO it's not a good idea to rely on mag parts for 922r. I always mod the rifle so any mags may be used.

SJgunguy24
08-06-2010, 1:47 PM
Should be easy enough to drop in enough US-mfgd FCG parts and at worst add some US mag floorplates & followers.

No more 922(r) issues.

Yes and no, if your moving the FCG back to where nature intended it to be then it's easy.
Many would rather keep the FCG in the OE location. That is a bit more tricky. The only parts that can swap are the hammer and dis connector. The 2 axis pins need to be removed for the swap. The hammer needs to be narrowed on the left side and the rest of the factory FCG has to be left intact and nothing can be knocked out of place. Also getting the BHO back in is a PITA if you've never done that before. Keeping the factory FCG location is more trouble then it's worth and it's faster to just move the thing. You do that and add a US made butt stock and there you have it, 4 parts and 922r compliant.

rrr70
08-06-2010, 8:41 PM
The surefire 30's are 3 us made parts. You slap on a Tapco hand guard and your good.

IMO it's not a good idea to rely on mag parts for 922r. I always mod the rifle so any mags may be used.

But how can one use 30 rounds Surefire if one not a cop?

CSACANNONEER
08-07-2010, 6:29 AM
But how can one use 30 rounds Surefire if one not a cop?

Well, I have some old 30 round AK mags which were modified to work in stock Saigas a long time ago. (High school shop classes used to be a place that one could work on real projects!) Anyway, I could legally rebuild my mags using my old spring and a Surefire body, fllorplate and follower. So, that's one way. Also, since 922(r) is a Federal law, many people can go the Surefire route if they live or shoot out of state.

motorhead
08-07-2010, 11:30 AM
trew! hell, you can change the springs too. one of my preban national paperweights morphed into an izzy bakelite.
to play devil's advocate here (purely for discussion), no one has ever been busted solely for 922r. the parts lists vary so much from weapon system to weapon system and us parts ARE NOT required to be marked. and, the black zepplins have been grounded by budget cuts.

CSACANNONEER
08-07-2010, 11:34 AM
. and, the black zepplins have been grounded by budget cuts.

That's just what "they" want you to think.:TFH:

comblock
08-18-2010, 4:29 PM
How about just using US Mags(3) and changing the handguard to a US part would bring your stock saiga rifle to 10 foreign parts.

frankm
08-18-2010, 9:37 PM
Prefer not to use US mags cause I got a boatload of AK mags. :)