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View Full Version : Become a Fireman-Get A CCW


Josey Wales
08-05-2010, 2:27 PM
http://www.dailybreeze.com/ci_15677446?source=rss_viewed


Wonder what he put down for good cause on his application.

dantodd
08-05-2010, 2:28 PM
No Application needed, arson investigators are LEOs.

Casual_Shooter
08-05-2010, 2:29 PM
I didn't see where it said he had a CCW permit?

Untamed1972
08-05-2010, 2:32 PM
A citizen reported the firefighter had a gun inside the bar, according to a statement issued by Hermosa Beach Fire Chief David Lantzer.

Orange County sheriff's deputies detained Powers on suspicion of "displaying a weapon in a rude, angry or threatening manner."

How do you get from someone seeing your gun to be investigated for brandishing? Did he actually threaten someone with it? Seems like some info is missing from the story.

SJgunguy24
08-05-2010, 2:36 PM
No Application needed, arson investigators are LEOs.

San Jose is trying to go this route. I was talking to a fire fighter who is an inspector and arson specialist. They are going cross train some of their fire fighter and send then to Evergreen for the 830 PC training to become sworn LEOs.

Shotgun Man
08-05-2010, 4:32 PM
You'd think the reporter would have pressed the police for more details about the so-called brandishing.

I'm surprised the friend who was a cop couldn't just vouch for the firefighter and make this a non-incident.

Doheny
08-05-2010, 4:38 PM
Arson investigators are peace officers under PC 830.37. They get to carry guns, although in a bar isn't too smart.

Re: the brandishing part, we're missing some facts, but obviously the SO figured it was enough to hand him over to a supervisor.

Wherryj
08-05-2010, 4:46 PM
He was charged because he brandished in a rude, angry or threatening manner?

What if he was polite, happy and "disarming" when he brandished his weapon?

IGOTDIRT4U
08-05-2010, 4:58 PM
Good grief, he was in Turcs!! That place has had more shootings over the years, I can tell ya.

Anyhow, that was real stupid. If he did brandish it.

1st5
08-05-2010, 9:28 PM
A little bit of misinfomation forming on this thread here...I'm a Fire Department arson investigator and I don't carry a gun on duty. Just because we are "peace officers" doesn't mean we are allowed to carry. It is agency specific. If I need armed support I call the PD to assist. It is lame, not ideal, but there it is. Mostly it is because I'm in liberal Marin/Sonoma working for a city dept where the politicians/chiefs don't see the need to arm the fire inspector/investigators when there is an armed police dept ready to assist us.

RolinCode3
08-05-2010, 9:44 PM
A little bit of misinfomation forming on this thread here...I'm a Fire Department arson investigator and I don't carry a gun on duty. Just because we are "peace officers" doesn't mean we are allowed to carry. It is agency specific. If I need armed support I call the PD to assist. It is lame, not ideal, but there it is. Mostly it is because I'm in liberal Marin/Sonoma working for a city dept where the politicians/chiefs don't see the need to arm the fire inspector/investigators when there is an armed police dept ready to assist us.

+1

Very few fire departments in CA actually support arming their investigators/inspectors.

I wish the OP didn't make a snap judgement about a "fireman" having a CCW from this article...it puts firefighters and LAW ABIDING CITIZENS in a bad light.

Cokebottle
08-05-2010, 9:49 PM
He was charged because he brandished in a rude, angry or threatening manner?

What if he was polite, happy and "disarming" when he brandished his weapon?
"Brandishing" is defined as display in a rude, angry, or threatening manner.
If he was polite, happy, and disarming while simply showing his gun to a friend, he was not brandishing... he was temporarily open-carrying.

Pointing a gun at someone on the freeway after they cut you off would be brandishing.

Shotgun Man
08-05-2010, 10:05 PM
In Glendale and Long Beach, FD arson investigators carry guns.

tallic68
08-05-2010, 10:41 PM
as do all cal fire investigators or "prevention" officers and most battalion cheifs.

12gauge12
08-06-2010, 12:16 AM
Many fire investigators and inspectors have to go through POST in order to write cites etc. Again, dept policy dictates if they can carry.

SJgunguy24
08-06-2010, 12:18 AM
A little bit of misinfomation forming on this thread here...I'm a Fire Department arson investigator and I don't carry a gun on duty. Just because we are "peace officers" doesn't mean we are allowed to carry. It is agency specific. If I need armed support I call the PD to assist. It is lame, not ideal, but there it is. Mostly it is because I'm in liberal Marin/Sonoma working for a city dept where the politicians/chiefs don't see the need to arm the fire inspector/investigators when there is an armed police dept ready to assist us.

Well with budget cuts and possible layoffs you might just get to carry a gun in the future. That is the exact reason why San Jose is going send thier guys to Evergreen.

I guess it's cheaper in the long run to have dual purpose personel. The City if Sunnyvale has a DPS (fire fighter/LEO) and IIRC every member has to do at least 5 years in each service to qualify for retirement.

IGOTDIRT4U
08-06-2010, 1:06 PM
In Glendale and Long Beach, FD arson investigators carry guns.

Buena Park, too.

locosway
08-07-2010, 12:08 AM
Growing up my friends dad was an arson investigator for HBPD, he carried, and his car was code 3 ready.

rudeboy3
08-07-2010, 12:20 AM
That sucks some of your departments dont allow that. And in CA every sworn FF is a "peace officer" because of citations and all that. When one becomes an investigator most departments allow just PC 832. If remember right when I was getting my arson stuff done I heard that CAL FIRE has an academy for there investigators which they become level 1 post but dont hold me to that.

eric2063
08-07-2010, 1:23 AM
But yes, as it stands right now, CAL FIRE Peace Officers attend the inter-departmental level 1 POST academy and are codified under 830.2 (g) PC. This allows them to enforce any and all laws and ordinances state wide, unlike an investigator operating under 830.37 PC and their department/jurisdictional policies. Of course the main focus is the enforcement of the forest and fire laws, but DUI and other law enforcement duties get done regularly too.

And no they don't automatically get a CCW either while employed or after retirement

In fact some local agencies are beginning to put their 830.37 investigators through full level 1 academies for multiple reasons, reduction in liability being one and to hopefully deter incidents like the one the OP cited from happening

HowardW56
08-07-2010, 7:43 AM
In Glendale and Long Beach, FD arson investigators carry guns.


Los Angeles City arson investigators are armed

FCinCA
08-07-2010, 8:13 AM
A little bit of misinfomation forming on this thread here...I'm a Fire Department arson investigator and I don't carry a gun on duty. Just because we are "peace officers" doesn't mean we are allowed to carry. It is agency specific. If I need armed support I call the PD to assist. It is lame, not ideal, but there it is. Mostly it is because I'm in liberal Marin/Sonoma working for a city dept where the politicians/chiefs don't see the need to arm the fire inspector/investigators when there is an armed police dept ready to assist us.

If you live where you work, you need to get a CCW for off duty.

Malthusian
08-07-2010, 8:14 AM
Sunnyvale

PD and firefighters rotate between firefighter and Police duty

rudeboy3
08-07-2010, 12:10 PM
But yes, as it stands right now, CAL FIRE Peace Officers attend the inter-departmental level 1 POST academy and are codified under 830.2 (g) PC. This allows them to enforce any and all laws and ordinances state wide, unlike an investigator operating under 830.37 PC and their department/jurisdictional policies. Of course the main focus is the enforcement of the forest and fire laws, but DUI and other law enforcement duties get done regularly too.

And no they don't automatically get a CCW either while employed or after retirement

In fact some local agencies are beginning to put their 830.37 investigators through full level 1 academies for multiple reasons, reduction in liability being one and to hopefully deter incidents like the one the OP cited from happening

Haha ill stick with my 832.

firemedic679
08-07-2010, 12:48 PM
im a fire/arson investigator for a career dept in Fresno County and we carry weapons. we had to take PC 832 and do some qualifications with PD. However, we can only carry them during the "performance of our duty" and to and from work. anytime else we have to have a CCW just like anyone else and our duty weapon has to be on that CCW as well as what ever other guns we want to carry. we have the power to arrest and whenever we do a warrant or investigation/interview we have a sworn officer with us.

we had a shooting back in Feb involving some Cal Fire investigators who were serving a search warrant where a FSO deputy and a Reedley PD officer were shot and killed. that event has now changed all the rules for arson investigators in Fresno County. we are probably going to go through a modified POST or reserve type POST academy as well as wear body armor during warrants, more extensive fire arms training, and a better threat analysis with PD when it comes time to serve the warrant.

the OP story sounds like the guy was showing off and someone saw it or he was flashing it around. since he was in bar maybe he had a little alcohol on board. either way what he did was not smart.

oldsmoboat
08-07-2010, 12:54 PM
The statement in the OP is in no way supported by the article and the OP hasn't been back.
Troll?

Josey Wales
08-07-2010, 3:41 PM
The statement in the OP is in no way supported by the article and the OP hasn't been back.
Troll?

I'm here. I didn't write the article nor was there. What jacka#$ walks into a bar open carrying. Obviously, he wasn't. Hence the CCW question. Didn't know investigating fires that are already put out was such a dangerous job requiring you to carry to a bar. My take was this guy didn't go to jail because of his cop buddy. Did I spell that clearer for you?

Josey Wales
08-07-2010, 3:56 PM
+1

Very few fire departments in CA actually support arming their investigators/inspectors.

I wish the OP didn't make a snap judgement about a "fireman" having a CCW from this article...it puts firefighters and LAW ABIDING CITIZENS in a bad light.

I used "fireman" because the article stated that. I was also surmising he was carring concealed then did something stupid by bringing it out.

tonelar
08-07-2010, 4:01 PM
San Francisco is as liberal as a city can be/ our Arson Investigators are either from the Police Dept or from my department (SFFD).
They are all issued .40 cal 229s. When a firefighter joins arson, he is required to carry.
I have no idea about other departments, I also don't know if Arson Personnel (who come in from Fire) retain their FD badges.

ALSO:

Wonder what he put down for good cause on his application.

So I can brandish it in a bar isn't good cause? Seriously though, why do you assume he has a CCW, Mr Greased Lightnin'?

Josey Wales
08-07-2010, 4:18 PM
ALSO:


So I can brandish it in a bar isn't good cause? Seriously though, why do you assume he has a CCW, Mr Greased Lightnin'?[/QUOTE]

It's "Mr. Chain-Blue Lightnin'", get the quote right.:) I assumed because there was no arrest reported and his cop buddy got him out of a jam at the time. The Daily Breeze is not long on investigative reporting. If this had been done by any other ORDINARY CITIZEN, they would be sitting in jail and not being "investigated" by their own dept.

pTa
08-07-2010, 4:36 PM
And all this times I thought it was chained blue lightning?

Anyone with a CCW knows you can't brandish your weapon without huge reperecussions

Josey Wales
08-07-2010, 4:44 PM
And all this times I thought it was chained blue lightning?

Fixed :eek:

CCWFacts
08-07-2010, 4:46 PM
I assume there must be some pension / compensation angle with arson investigators being sworn LEOs. The CCW privilege, along with possible AW and large-cap mag privileges, are probably nice side-benefits as well.

Part of the reason for the layoffs of Oakland PD is because the only other major budget item is the fire department, and their union contract says that there can be no layoffs. I'm grateful for the work firemen do, but non-union private corporations, with competitive prices, could do it for a tenth of the cost.

tonelar
08-07-2010, 5:30 PM
And all this times I thought it was chained blue lightning?
Anyone with a CCW knows you can't brandish your weapon without huge reperecussions
There's knowing something and then there's what you do. Sounds like this guy either shouldn't have been carrying -or- produced his firearm in response to a threat. However, it looks like it's the former (if you give credence to what is in th article).


CCWFacts;
so the two MAJOR expenses in the Oakland City Budget are POLICE and FIRE? That's amazing... in the SF city budget, Police, Sherrif and FIRE are under 8% of the city budget.

RolinCode3
08-07-2010, 7:14 PM
That sucks some of your departments dont allow that. And in CA every sworn FF is a "peace officer" because of citations and all that. When one becomes an investigator most departments allow just PC 832. If remember right when I was getting my arson stuff done I heard that CAL FIRE has an academy for there investigators which they become level 1 post but dont hold me to that.

Wow...I was never given a citation book when I worked as a firefighter. Firefighters are NOT "peace officers" unless they work for a specific agency that has "blessed" them in that role (ie - Sunnyvale, Rohnert Park). Sworn firefighters are considered "public safety" employees...maybe that's what you meant, although it has nothing to do with writing citations.

In fact, investigators in the department I currently work for (which does not allow their investigators to carry on or off duty) can issue code violations to businesses, but that's far from a citation. If an arrest needs to be made for arson or a citation issued for some other FD related matter, the local PD handles it with the FD investigator (usually with one of their investigators who has been working the case with the FD). Arson, after all, is a crime, and it's not called law enforcement for nothing. Our investigators are not much more than expert witnesses if there needs to be a trial.

Large departments do usually promote sworn firefighters to arson investigators, but smaller departments do not. If a smaller department has a full-time investigator position, they will either rotate a firefighter through it on a special assignment (usually 2-3 years), or (more likely) they will hire someone with law enforcement experience as a permanent position. Those are usually the ones that continue to have 830 privileges.

RolinCode3
08-07-2010, 7:34 PM
I assume there must be some pension / compensation angle with arson investigators being sworn LEOs. The CCW privilege, along with possible AW and large-cap mag privileges, are probably nice side-benefits as well.

Part of the reason for the layoffs of Oakland PD is because the only other major budget item is the fire department, and their union contract says that there can be no layoffs. I'm grateful for the work firemen do, but non-union private corporations, with competitive prices, could do it for a tenth of the cost.

There is no pension or retirement compensation with arson investigators being sworn LEO's. Firefighters and sworn LEO's are both "public safety employees" and are subject to being compensated under PERS or whatever local retirement they use. It is usually exactly the same (mostly 3% @ 50 years old) between FD and PD in the same jurisdiction.

Here's a quick education on the fire service dating back to the 1700's in the US...fire companies were private, paid by insurance companies. If you wanted the fire department o put out your house if it caught on fire, you paid the insurance company and they put a marker on your house to indicate that it was to be saved if it was burning. If you did not have a marker, they would watch it burn and perhaps keep the house next door from burning if it had a marker on it. Each fire company was separate from eachother, and only the first house to get water on the fire got paid by the insurance company. There are stories of literal fistfights in front of burning buildings between mobs of firefighters attempting to get the first water on the fire.

Now, I can guarantee you that if legislation were passed tomorrow that made all fire departments private, that money which normally goes to the FD budget would be reassigned to other programs in the city/county. Where would the money come from to pay for the fire department? Are we going back the insurance company model? How much are insurance companies going to charge now?

The highest salary I have ever heard of a firefighter making in a year (with OT and benefits included) was between $250k and $300k (I think it was a captain in Vallejo). That is far and above the norm. Most in the Bay Area average between 100k and $150k, including benefits. How do you propose privatizing the fire department? Don't get me wrong, I think we all pay too much in taxes, but I just don't think that there is any way to make it any cheaper for tax paying citizens by going private.

FCinCA
08-07-2010, 11:36 PM
I'm here. I didn't write the article nor was there. What jacka#$ walks into a bar open carrying. Obviously, he wasn't. Hence the CCW question. Didn't know investigating fires that are already put out was such a dangerous job requiring you to carry to a bar. My take was this guy didn't go to jail because of his cop buddy. Did I spell that clearer for you?

Unfortunately your lack of knowledge on what fire investigation entails caused you to make the statement you did. I am not defending the incident that this individual is in nor do I know if he in fact did something inappropriate. Your initial post should be edited so that you don't appear to be questioning an arson investigators good cause for a CCW. In case you didn't know, Arson is a major felony and parties to the crime can look at doing some serious time in state prison. Last time I checked, bad guys don't like to get caught for the crimes they commit and will do what they can to stay out.

I'm grateful for the work firemen do, but non-union private corporations, with competitive prices, could do it for a tenth of the cost.

Bite your tongue sir. Don't fool yourself, the price for providing this type of service will always fetch a premium. If privatization were to occur the only difference would be that the administrators would be getting the dollars and the folks on the line would be getting the short end of the stick. :chris:


In fact, investigators in the department I currently work for can issue code violations to businesses, but that's far from a citation.


Where do you work? So when they issue a code violation what is that considered in your city or district? I am pretty sure no matter how small your department is they have adopted the State Fire Code and have amended it with local ordinances. You may be surprised when you look into it more that your investigators or inspectors are actually writing citation for violations of the fire code or the CCR.

madjack956
08-08-2010, 11:50 AM
I have two friends that are arson investigators. They both carry a firearm. Some arson investigations involve gangbangers. The kind that threaten your life in court. Darryl Powers is one of those two friends. I can't tell you the details of what happened other than the whole "brandishing in a threatening manner" report was lets say, strongly imbelished.

Mad Scotsman
08-08-2010, 12:47 PM
as do all cal fire investigators or "prevention" officers and most battalion cheifs.

Wrong. Only Prevention officers carry.(Fire Captains and Battalion Chiefs) When a prevention captain covers a station, he cannot carry outside the duties of Prevention. I go round and round with them about my CCW in the station. If it truly is CCW, how can they know I carry.:D

Mad Scotsman
08-08-2010, 12:52 PM
That sucks some of your departments dont allow that. And in CA every sworn FF is a "peace officer" because of citations and all that. When one becomes an investigator most departments allow just PC 832. If remember right when I was getting my arson stuff done I heard that CAL FIRE has an academy for there investigators which they become level 1 post but dont hold me to that.

Wrong. Firefighters in CA are not peace officers. We can enforce PRC. 4210 and some local traffic codes dealing with emergencies. CHP and SO ultimately have override authority over roadways, hence the arrests of Firefighters for not opening the roadways.:eek:

FCinCA
08-08-2010, 3:45 PM
Wrong. Firefighters in CA are not peace officers. We can enforce PRC. 4210 and some local traffic codes dealing with emergencies. CHP and SO ultimately have override authority over roadways, hence the arrests of Firefighters for not opening the roadways.:eek:

What is 4210? The enforcement of traffic codes on incidents how so?

Josey Wales
08-23-2010, 6:26 PM
This guy is just too much! But again, it's the Daily Breeze.
http://www.dailybreeze.com/news/ci_15868726?source=rss

Shiboleth
08-23-2010, 7:02 PM
Making us all look bad...

eric2063
08-23-2010, 11:38 PM
I’m not quite sure where the Mad Scotsman is getting his information from; the enabling section for CAL FIRE Peace Officers is Public Resources Code section 4156 (et al) and Penal Code section 830.2 (g). As far as enforcement of specific laws and saying that the CAL FIRE officers can only enforce traffic laws during emergency incident that is incorrect. The powers of arrest for CAL FIRE Peace Officers are only limited by the departmental policy and the individual Peace Officer’s supervisors unlike an investigator operating under 830.37 PC. Because the direct supervisors are very often not Peace Officers themselves the restrictions can be rather liberal or pretty draconian.

While you may see a CAL FIRE officer performing traffic control at an emergency incident it would only be until a CHP unit showed up. In fact in some of the larger CAL FIRE administrative units it isn’t uncommon to have CAL FIRE officers working DUI check points, performing vehicle stops and calling for CHP to evaluate the driver for driving under the influence of an illegal substance, or even making arrests for domestic violence and burglary.

But I’m way off topic here; the guy that was caught brandishing in the bar is an azz hat for pulling that immature maneuver and as Shiboleth said he is making everyone look bad because they won’t differentiate between him and any other gun enthusiast and use it as a reason to pass more laws to restrict our freedoms!