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View Full Version : If 1934 passes, Will you carry a shotgun? Or????


diginit
08-04-2010, 5:18 PM
For those Non LEOs and folks without a CCW. If UOC is illegal, Will you carry a riot gun or slung rifle to portect yourself?
I see nothing illegal about it. Just kind of heavy....:D

grammaton76
08-04-2010, 5:20 PM
I'll just continue LUCC'ing a handgun every day.

As for a rifle or shotgun... they'll stay in the car where they are right now.

Seriously, AB1934 is only affecting an already-crippled (GFSZ) mode of carry. School zones are EVERYWHERE in urban areas, and many of the folks the typical UOC noob looks up to have had white-faced moments where they realize some of their early outings were in absolutely prosecutable 626.9 territory.

LUCC is largely immune from accidentally blundering into a restricted zone, which is why I would rather see people LUCC'ing - legally safer, which means you're carrying more.

OleCuss
08-04-2010, 5:38 PM
Assuming AB 1934 passes I'll likely do nothing different until Sykes or a similar case is ruled in our favor. That is when the fun and games will really start!!!

And no, I'm not anti-OC.

Don't count on 1934 passing, though. I think there's a decent chance this abomination gets killed in the Assembly or in the Senate. Might even get vetoed but I've some doubts on that.

boxbro
08-04-2010, 5:38 PM
I'll just continue LUCC'ing a handgun every day.

As for a rifle or shotgun... they'll stay in the car where they are right now.

What kind of bag/lock do you use for LUCC ?

diginit
08-04-2010, 5:47 PM
What kind of bag/lock do you use for LUCC ?

I imagine it is a CCW since Grammaton posted before I added "Non LEOs and folks without a CCW."
But I could be wrong. It is quite possible he knows something I don't.

sevensix2x51
08-04-2010, 5:51 PM
nope. locked in a case, as it is with all transport of handguns. no license/permit.

Dead*Reckoned
08-04-2010, 5:52 PM
I imagine it is a CCW since Grammaton posted before I added "Non LEOs and folks without a CCW."
But I could be wrong. It is quite possible he knows something I don't.

LUCC is locked unloaded concealed carry, which could be anything carrying a pistol in something as simple as a backpack, unloaded of course.

POLICESTATE
08-04-2010, 5:56 PM
My method seems to be okay:

Locked pistol case (softcase with the zipper padlocked shut) and that inside a backpack. Gun unloaded. Loaded magazines in a pouch in the backpack. Looks nice and regular :)

This is based on my understanding that the handgun itself must be fully enclosed inside a container that is lockable, in this case with a padlock.

Uxi
08-04-2010, 6:10 PM
Nah, too much of a legal land-mine. I'm totally for Open Carry, though would prefer Loaded. I wish we'd get a case against the GFSZ business. I can understand on the actual property (though would argue armed and trained teachers would be safer).

thevic
08-04-2010, 6:25 PM
ive open carried/open transported around san mateo the past week since i got my holster and it is pretty annoying with the school Zones...hell sometimes you are within 3 schools at once. definately not worth the hassle, but no was seemsed nervous around me and usually gave a smile (probably because i fit a profile of a cop haha)

buut for long trips i think open transport works well because i drive all over the place and there usually isnt a shool on a freeway haha

CitaDeL
08-04-2010, 6:27 PM
If AB1934 becomes law, I will become a member of the OLL/EBR club and carry a rifle bristling with accessories like that "shoulder thing that goes up" and loaded up with an empty 10/30 mag in the well.

With the shrinking number of methods of legal carry, the legislators are responsible for the increase in proportion of my firearms as my reletive need for safety and security is unchanged. If they dont like that, they can stick that in their pipe and try to ban that too.

OleCuss
08-04-2010, 6:38 PM
I'm not an insider, but I honestly think that within a few years or sooner you'll be able to LOC in what would currently be a GFSZ. Don't ask me why or how I think that, but I think the odds are good and that I'm not being overly optimistic.

There are too many things going on in the courts and legislatures for me to think that the antis are going to succeed for long at some of their plans. There is momentum building in certain areas and the antis have spent years crafting their policies into mere caricatures of legality and privilege. In some ways it is a house of cards they have built.

Falstaff
08-04-2010, 6:50 PM
What kind of bag/lock do you use for LUCC ?



http://i44.tinypic.com/13yknih.jpg

No padlock to deal with, just reach inside backpack and fiddle the digits. This thing is the size of a large book, and it holds my sidearm and several (loaded) magazines.

diginit
08-04-2010, 7:05 PM
How long is the combo on that? I like it. Might beat turning one number on one ring on my lock as I could turn it the wrong direction. Removing the lock takes even longer.

Experimentalist
08-04-2010, 7:21 PM
I'm willing to share the plans, schematics, and software for this little gem I put together.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=306925

I've updated the design to include a hard plastic cover over the pistol section. The pistol is now completely enclosed, and the only way to access it (short of breaking the case) is to use the RFID key.

OleCuss
08-04-2010, 7:30 PM
I'm willing to share the plans, schematics, and software for this little gem I put together.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=306925

I've updated the design to include a hard plastic cover over the pistol section. The pistol is now completely enclosed, and the only way to access it (short of breaking the case) is to use the RFID key.

I like this! Inventive and it really should work very nicely.

Falstaff
08-04-2010, 10:12 PM
How long is the combo on that? I like it. Might beat turning one number on one ring on my lock as I could turn it the wrong direction. Removing the lock takes even longer.

you can set it from 3or 4(not sure) to 6 digits

its really quick beep beep beep beep opens in less than a second

safewaysecurity
08-04-2010, 10:19 PM
I heard if this passes a bunch of people will be organizing Long Gun Open Carries through out cali. All I can say is you make it harder for us to defend ourselves your create a ****storm of ****. No CCW? Ok everyone will OC handguns. No OC of handguns? Ok we will OC Long Guns and scary "black-rifles".

RobG
08-04-2010, 10:43 PM
I heard if this passes a bunch of people will be organizing Long Gun Open Carries through out cali. All I can say is you make it harder for us to defend ourselves your create a ****storm of ****. No CCW? Ok everyone will OC handguns. No OC of handguns? Ok we will OC Long Guns and scary "black-rifles".

I wonder if Starbucks will still be as accepting:43:

GuyW
08-04-2010, 10:47 PM
If you think legal UOC of handguns is potentially risky as to potential LEO over-reaction - wait till you UOC a long gun...

.

thevic
08-04-2010, 10:53 PM
^^^

people smile when they see me with a hand gun, but an ar15 will make them think there is something wrong. i would...then procede to insert a loaded mag into the USP

marcusrn
08-04-2010, 10:57 PM
Will you people be wearing condons on your your heads when your carrying your long guns " because its legal"? Where I work it's real popular to not take the medication " because its my right"! but they continue to act like paranoid insane people. If you are sane and need protection then do what you must to protect yourself. Don't act nutty and get histrionic because you have nothing else to do with your time. Some of us have to live in the socialist reb of CA. Don't ruin it for us with your immaturity. IMHO Molon Labe Marcus Aurellius.

thayne
08-04-2010, 10:57 PM
If you think legal UOC of handguns is potentially risky as to potential LEO over-reaction - wait till you UOC a long gun...

.

:popcorn:

thayne
08-04-2010, 10:59 PM
Will you people be wearing condons on your your heads when your carrying your long guns " because its legal"? Where I work it's real popular to not take the medication " because its my right"! but they continue to act like paranoid insane people. If you are sane and need protection then do what you must to protect yourself. Don't act nutty and get histrionic because you have nothing else to do with your time. Some of us have to live in the socialist reb of CA. Don't ruin it for us with your immaturity. IMHO Molon Labe Marcus Aurellius.

In your face protests worked for gays, why not gunnies?

thayne
08-04-2010, 11:00 PM
I heard if this passes a bunch of people will be organizing Long Gun Open Carries through out cali. All I can say is you make it harder for us to defend ourselves your create a ****storm of ****. No CCW? Ok everyone will OC handguns. No OC of handguns? Ok we will OC Long Guns and scary "black-rifles".

With fixed bayonets! :chris:

marcusrn
08-04-2010, 11:11 PM
Hey I don't know you you realize it but black rifles were made illegal in CA. And incidently most folks arn't afraid of queer folks but they are afraid of idle lower middle class white folks who carry SHG or carbines into Starbucks or wherever you people are having your be-ins nowadays. Do something construtive with your time, get off the internet and go to the range. Molon Labe

ETD1010
08-04-2010, 11:11 PM
you forgot "No, I'll continue carrying WITH a CCW". But I push awaiting CCW since we'd all benefit most from that.

Dead*Reckoned
08-04-2010, 11:17 PM
Hey I don't know you you realize it but black rifles were made illegal in CA. And incidently most folks arn't afraid of queer folks but they are afraid of idle lower middle class white folks who carry SHG or carbines into Starbucks or wherever you people are having your be-ins nowadays. Do something construtive with your time, get off the internet and go to the range. Molon Labe

LOL, welcome to Calguns, where anything is possible.

grammaton76
08-04-2010, 11:33 PM
For those who don't know, LUCC is explained here: http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/RefLegalCaLUCC

I have thusly voted "concealed without CCW" - you don't need a CCW permit to LUCC. :)

If it were possible, I'd have added LUCC to avoid confusing unlawful CCW vs lawful LUCC.

What kind of bag/lock do you use for LUCC ?

I use a Blackhawk pouch holster and LUCC my CZ-40P (it was nice when Dad was out of state...). Blackhawk was kind enough to send me a review sample... review is here. Folks rarely ever look twice at it when I'm walking around.

http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/RefBlackhawkBeltPouchHolster

http://gunwiki.net/pub/Gunwiki/RefBlackhawkBeltPouchHolster/d_dsc05392.jpg

thevic
08-04-2010, 11:37 PM
^^ carry a pair of snips and cut the lock in case of emergencies lol

theoutcast32
08-05-2010, 12:06 AM
Hey I don't know you you realize it but black rifles were made illegal in CA. And incidently most folks arn't afraid of queer folks but they are afraid of idle lower middle class white folks who carry SHG or carbines into Starbucks or wherever you people are having your be-ins nowadays. Do something construtive with your time, get off the internet and go to the range. Molon Labe

WTF does this guy get off by telling us what to do with our free time? Get off the high horse you rode in on.

thayne
08-05-2010, 12:10 AM
WTF does this guy get off by telling us what to do with our free time? Get off the high horse you rode in on.

I also like how he refers to OCers as "Lower middle class white folk". Arm chair elitists/racists crack me up :43:

thevic
08-05-2010, 12:12 AM
most of us are white haha

radioburning
08-05-2010, 12:16 AM
Hey I don't know you you realize it but black rifles were made illegal in CA. And incidently most folks arn't afraid of queer folks but they are afraid of idle lower middle class white folks who carry SHG or carbines into Starbucks or wherever you people are having your be-ins nowadays. Do something construtive with your time, get off the internet and go to the range. Molon Labe

:popcorn:

pullnshoot25
08-05-2010, 12:18 AM
What kind of bag/lock do you use for LUCC ?

5.11 Select Carry pack.

pullnshoot25
08-05-2010, 12:19 AM
Hey I don't know you you realize it but black rifles were made illegal in CA. And incidently most folks arn't afraid of queer folks but they are afraid of idle lower middle class white folks who carry SHG or carbines into Starbucks or wherever you people are having your be-ins nowadays. Do something construtive with your time, get off the internet and go to the range. Molon Labe

You are a lost soul.

safewaysecurity
08-05-2010, 12:19 AM
I wonder if Starbucks will still be as accepting:43:

Oh **** I didn't think about that. Wonder if they would still support us... doubt it. Those black rifles look awful black and we all no black color automatically makes something dangerous.

thayne
08-05-2010, 12:36 AM
Oh **** I didn't think about that. Wonder if they would still support us... doubt it. Those black rifles look awful black and we all no black color automatically makes something dangerous.

paint them pink :D
http://www.spareammo.com/posters/hello-kitty-pink-ar-15-ar15-m16-assault-flowers-kitten-m4-car-mag-rifle-pictures-girls-gun.jpg

safewaysecurity
08-05-2010, 1:17 AM
paint them pink :D
http://www.spareammo.com/posters/hello-kitty-pink-ar-15-ar15-m16-assault-flowers-kitten-m4-car-mag-rifle-pictures-girls-gun.jpg

The funny thing is I can GUARANTEE if we did that nobody would feel threatened. It's an image thing. Liberals don't understand function. Hell I drive a 3000 pound car everyday with the potential to kill people in the masses but i don't because I'm good person. Same logic applies to firearms imo. When you walk in front of a car during a stop light you are no safer than if you had a loaded gun pointed at you by a total stranger. It's called blind trust.

NightOwl
08-05-2010, 1:39 AM
Didn't vote.

No, I am here to work my way through school, and plan on moving to another state as soon as I have the education to get me a decent career. I don't expect CA legislature to do anything I'd consider rational, patriotic, or good in the meantime (or after), but I'll vote/write my reps/etc in an effort to make it a better state in the meantime.

My preferred method of carry is already neutered. I have no hope for this state whatsoever, the constitution isn't seen as something beneficial, just something to ignore or work around.

nobody_special
08-05-2010, 2:56 AM
LUCC is largely immune from accidentally blundering into a restricted zone, which is why I would rather see people LUCC'ing - legally safer, which means you're carrying more.

Largely, but not totally. IIRC possession on school or university grounds is still illegal, and the universities around here own parcels of land that are not obviously university property.

sevensix2x51
08-05-2010, 6:27 AM
Hey I don't know you you realize it but black rifles were made illegal in CA. And incidently most folks arn't afraid of queer folks but they are afraid of idle lower middle class white folks who carry SHG or carbines into Starbucks or wherever you people are having your be-ins nowadays. Do something construtive with your time, get off the internet and go to the range. Molon Labe

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQIU0H5yOGK5bTpIQxOTPiz4YDIY0xA4 cG2Y8XyNCRisdIvqak&t=1&usg=__e6i7MpZ8mB3u5vuHiVdgsPCaLT8=

pullnshoot25
08-05-2010, 6:38 AM
Largely, but not totally. IIRC possession on school or university grounds is still illegal, and the universities around here own parcels of land that are not obviously university property.

The whole "largely immune" part of gramm's post covers this statement.

Decoligny
08-05-2010, 8:53 AM
Will you people be wearing condons on your your heads when your carrying your long guns " because its legal"? Where I work it's real popular to not take the medication " because its my right"! but they continue to act like paranoid insane people. If you are sane and need protection then do what you must to protect yourself. Don't act nutty and get histrionic because you have nothing else to do with your time. Some of us have to live in the socialist reb of CA. Don't ruin it for us with your immaturity. IMHO Molon Labe Marcus Aurellius.

It's definitely NOT just because it's legal.

People would probably be carrying a loaded handgun concealed, if they could.

But it is illegal without a CCW and it is nearly impossible to get a CCW, so people protest this infringement on our rights by practicing Unloaded Open Carry (UOC) of a handgun.

If 1934 passes, then that will be illegal to UOC a handgun, so people will continue to protest this continuing infringement on our fundamental rights by practicing UOC of long guns.

When the government continues to take away our rights, we must continue to protest this gross violation by shoving it right back in their faces.

When the founding fathers rebelled against the tyranny of the King, they knew that if they failed, it meant their death as traitors. Today, if someone dare act out in any way that simply makes another person "uncomfortable", they are told they are acting like "paranoid insane" people.

Molon Labe = Come and Take them! In the original Greek it was a challenge, similar to the "from my cold dead hands" used today.

You seem to have changed to context into an invitation; "Go ahead Saldana, come an take them, anytime you like."

Wherryj
08-05-2010, 9:21 AM
paint them pink :D
http://www.spareammo.com/posters/hello-kitty-pink-ar-15-ar15-m16-assault-flowers-kitten-m4-car-mag-rifle-pictures-girls-gun.jpg

Wow, that isn't scary at all. It's not even black.

VW*Mike
08-05-2010, 10:33 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Black Panthers do this in the 60's? unloaded shotgun on a sling with shells in their pockets?

HunterJim
08-05-2010, 10:39 AM
They were carrying loaded, which was not illegal until the Panthers frightened the ruling class in Sacramento.

jim

pullnshoot25
08-05-2010, 11:09 AM
They were carrying loaded, which was not illegal until the Panthers frightened the ruling class in Sacramento.

jim

Remember that the display of arms was because Oakland cops (still as corrupt now as they were back then) were wantonly murdering black people.

xxsleepyxx
08-05-2010, 11:26 AM
LUCC still seems like a loophole which can lead to prosecution. It seems like the law did not intend for folks to practice it everyday. I also see that a court would find it disturbing and would go towards being found guilty for unlawful possessio. I hope I am wrong though.

OlderThanDirt
08-05-2010, 11:50 AM
I'll UOC my 1919a4 with a belt over my shoulder. Maybe I'll mount the 1919a4 on a little red wagon so I don't get tired.

PEBKAC
08-05-2010, 1:32 PM
Probably not...as much as I want to it seems like a good way to lose some expensive guns. :(

Vox
08-05-2010, 2:44 PM
the only way I'm carrying without a CCW should this pass would be Unloaded rifles and/or shotguns at peaceful demonstrations orchestrated well to serve a purpose other than "moron labor"

grammaton76
08-05-2010, 2:55 PM
LUCC still seems like a loophole which can lead to prosecution. It seems like the law did not intend for folks to practice it everyday. I also see that a court would find it disturbing and would go towards being found guilty for unlawful possessio. I hope I am wrong though.

If you're LUCC'ing properly, two points:

1. They have to know you have it. Concealed means generally you're not going to get identified.
2. If you have to take it out and use it, you're already going to be going to court anyway. They typically let justified self-defense shootings with illegally concealed weapons slide. Your threshold of risk is much lower because you were legally concealed.

As for university grounds, I tend to know where I'm going. I would be extremely surprised to discover that I've ever blundered into university-owned property while LUCC'ing. I do know there are plenty of parking lots downtown owned by universities, but ... well, downtown sucks so I don't go there anyway. :)

xxsleepyxx
08-05-2010, 3:54 PM
If you're LUCC'ing properly, two points:

1. They have to know you have it. Concealed means generally you're not going to get identified.
2. If you have to take it out and use it, you're already going to be going to court anyway. They typically let justified self-defense shootings with illegally concealed weapons slide. Your threshold of risk is much lower because you were legally concealed.

As for university grounds, I tend to know where I'm going. I would be extremely surprised to discover that I've ever blundered into university-owned property while LUCC'ing. I do know there are plenty of parking lots downtown owned by universities, but ... well, downtown sucks so I don't go there anyway. :)

Well what about this scenario:

You're walking downtown or at an outdoor shopping center where it is not unusual to see police officers. They spot your suspicious looking pouch on your belt and ask what is inside. You could say a couple of things:
1) it's none of your business
2) private valuables
3) say nothing

However, does the police officer have a "reasonable suspicion" that it could be a firearm and further investigate it (which they most likely would) I don't think they would let you walk by if you say "No! it's none of your business" and walk away or even if you did it in a polite manner wouldn't they have the right to further investigate and possibly force the pouch open or detain you. Because if it was so easy to transport something by just putting a lock on it couldn't somebody transport pure Columbian cocaine in a lockable pouch and cops would never be able to open it because it's violation of rights.

I hope you understand where I'm going here.

grammaton76
08-05-2010, 4:18 PM
Well what about this scenario:

You're walking downtown or at an outdoor shopping center where it is not unusual to see police officers. They spot your suspicious looking pouch on your belt and ask what is inside. You could say a couple of things:
1) it's none of your business
2) private valuables
3) say nothing

However, does the police officer have a "reasonable suspicion" that it could be a firearm and further investigate it (which they most likely would) I don't think they would let you walk by if you say "No! it's none of your business" and walk away or even if you did it in a polite manner wouldn't they have the right to further investigate and possibly force the pouch open or detain you. Because if it was so easy to transport something by just putting a lock on it couldn't somebody transport pure Columbian cocaine in a lockable pouch and cops would never be able to open it because it's violation of rights.

I hope you understand where I'm going here.

This is what one would think before one has actually gone about with a locked pouch on his belt. I know, because I had similar thoughts back when I got started (close to 2 years ago now, I think).

I propose that you try the same experiment I did when I first started LUCC'ing: lock a blue gun (i.e. legally inert) or a detached pistol grip, or some other gun-shaped object into a comparable pouch. Then, walk around for a week or two with it in there, with the padlock and all.

You'll be amazed how no one notices or cares. And I do walk past LEOs on a regular basis while LUCC'ing. Of course, if you dress like a gang banger you might generate more interest than a middle-class guy in business casual.

Side note, as for the question, it's simple - show your business card and state that you're not at liberty to disclose the contents. I personally happen to work for a company where it's entirely plausible that I could be transporting prototype electronics, but I've never so much as had a word about the case to an LEO (or anyone else) while out and about.

On a side note, Columbian cocaine would be easy to transport around other than the fact you're meeting with people who are themselves probably under suspicion. And you're certainly open to search when crossing borders, etc. Out and about, not so much. Also, with cocaine they can always haul out a police dog which could alert to the case and thus generate probable cause.

rero360
08-05-2010, 4:34 PM
One could also get creative with the replies to the police questions

"its my colostomy bag"
"its my insalin pump"


or go with a partial truth "I'm LUCCWing, I have a bazooka inside it"

Although I'm sure with those responses you should be ready for more questions lol.

MasterYong
08-05-2010, 4:35 PM
This is what one would think before one has actually gone about with a locked pouch on his belt. I know, because I had similar thoughts back when I got started (close to 2 years ago now, I think).

I propose that you try the same experiment I did when I first started LUCC'ing: lock a blue gun (i.e. legally inert) or a detached pistol grip, or some other gun-shaped object into a comparable pouch. Then, walk around for a week or two with it in there, with the padlock and all.

You'll be amazed how no one notices or cares. And I do walk past LEOs on a regular basis while LUCC'ing. Of course, if you dress like a gang banger you might generate more interest than a middle-class guy in business casual.

Side note, as for the question, it's simple - show your business card and state that you're not at liberty to disclose the contents. I personally happen to work for a company where it's entirely plausible that I could be transporting prototype electronics, but I've never so much as had a word about the case to an LEO (or anyone else) while out and about.

On a side note, Columbian cocaine would be easy to transport around other than the fact you're meeting with people who are themselves probably under suspicion. And you're certainly open to search when crossing borders, etc. Out and about, not so much. Also, with cocaine they can always haul out a police dog which could alert to the case and thus generate probable cause.

While I agree with you, I think it's only fair to point out that you happen to look like one of the most clean-cut upstanding citizens as possible in your photos... :D

rero360
08-05-2010, 4:55 PM
Additionally, for those who do LUCCW, what containers are you using? I'm kind of thinking about the maxedition packs, and maybe an attache case for when I'm in suit and tie.

grammaton76
08-05-2010, 5:15 PM
While I agree with you, I think it's only fair to point out that you happen to look like one of the most clean-cut upstanding citizens as possible in your photos... :D

This is not by accident - it's called social camouflage, and it's one reason I recommend business casual attire to all and sundry. :)

I'm more likely to get mistaken for Jason Bourne than a gang banger. ;)

Additionally, for those who do LUCCW, what containers are you using? I'm kind of thinking about the maxedition packs, and maybe an attache case for when I'm in suit and tie.

Blackhawk hip pouch for me. Attache cases are nice, but I would do a Dillon Plan B inside one just in case you need to open the case for something.

xxsleepyxx
08-05-2010, 5:22 PM
Okay well how about this grammaton76...

The cop sees you and concludes that so and so must be carrying a gun in that LUCC pouch (whether or not his conclusion is logical or supported). He has that suspicion which grants him access to pat you down on the outside. He says "this feels much like a gun" whether or not that is true maybe it was printing through the pouch or maybe he's just BSing. But he now suspects it is a firearm. Can he then either cut it open or force you to open it?

Basically I'm thinking of a situation where cops will imply things with no evidence (as they often do)

thayne
08-05-2010, 5:24 PM
One could also get creative with the replies to the police questions

"its my colostomy bag"
"its my insalin pump"


or go with a partial truth "I'm LUCCWing, I have a bazooka inside it"

Although I'm sure with those responses you should be ready for more questions lol.
"I dont consent to searches"
"Am I being detained?"
"Am I free to go?"

xxsleepyxx
08-05-2010, 5:28 PM
"I dont consent to searches"
"Am I being detained?"
"Am I free to go?"

Right, that is ideal but sometimes cops will just start putting their hands on you and take that risk on their part.

grammaton76
08-05-2010, 5:49 PM
Okay well how about this grammaton76...

The cop sees you and concludes that so and so must be carrying a gun in that LUCC pouch (whether or not his conclusion is logical or supported). He has that suspicion which grants him access to pat you down on the outside. He says "this feels much like a gun" whether or not that is true maybe it was printing through the pouch or maybe he's just BSing. But he now suspects it is a firearm. Can he then either cut it open or force you to open it?

Basically I'm thinking of a situation where cops will imply things with no evidence (as they often do)

He can't FORCE you to open it under any circumstances. He can order you to and you can be silent while he breaks it open or whatnot. If it's ever opened without your consent, they should have to cut off the lock or cut open the pouch. All the while you calmly assert that this is without your permission and your attorney will be called as soon as he's done on his fishing expedition.

I will simply bring this up: how many times have you been patted down in your life? The only time I've ever been patted down by an LEO was during UOC stops.

BTW, get this: I've worn my LUCC case, LOCKED, during UOC events. I've been stopped many times for 12031(e) checks, and at times it was flat-out "let's screw with him". Care to guess how many times they've checked my LUCC case DURING a weapons check?

Zero times. Didn't even look at it as far as I can tell.

One other point - if an LEO were to stop you, you could always inform him you're on your way to a shooting range... just as long as it's before the ranges close for the night. That's a 12025/12026 (forgot which) exemption right there, and you're never violating 12031 with LUCC anyway.

xxsleepyxx
08-05-2010, 7:09 PM
Thanks for the replies. You're absolutely right. I just didn't have experience so I didn't know how it would play out in my head.

yelohamr
08-05-2010, 7:14 PM
The only time I've been patted down, was by TSA at airports.

Never been "E" checked, even when I've walked in plain view of LEOs. Maybe they never noticed I was Open Carrying, most people don't.

I don't see me changing my daily routine, because of the bed wetters in Sacramento. Since I live in an unincorporated area and live on a private street, I carry loaded when walking the dog.

The way I look at it, they can threaten us with all the legalese they want but finding all of us is another.

Stay tuned, I may be a test case.

hoffmang
08-05-2010, 7:29 PM
If your firearm is unloaded and locked, it's legal. If it's legal, remain silent and CGF will almost always defend you.

-Gene

mosinnagantm9130
08-05-2010, 7:47 PM
Probably not...as much as I want to it seems like a good way to lose some expensive guns. :(

Carry a 91/30:D

diginit
08-05-2010, 9:55 PM
So far. It seems ULCC seems to be the way to go. It just goes to show that most gun owners want to abide by the law, But simply refuse to be rendered defenceless. +10. We MUST relay this point to our legislature! Somehow.
I have mentioned before that I have been jumped twice by 2 assailants each time. The first party wanted to take my girlfriend and dump me over an overpass.The second wanted to do the same in an underpass. (BE AWARE) I thank GOD they did not succeed. I don't care what is legal or not anymore. Does this tell you how I voted? I WILL defend myself and others around me. PERIOD. Am I supposed to ask a criminal to wait until I make a phone call to 911? Then wait 15 minuites for a LEO's arrival? And I could never just ignor and walk away from someone in trouble. Not wanting to get involved. Our laws need serious revision.
Thanks for all your input so far. This has been very informative. Keep it up. James.

SchooBaka
08-05-2010, 10:08 PM
Oh **** I didn't think about that. Wonder if they would still support us... doubt it. Those black rifles look awful black and we all no black color automatically makes something dangerous.

I like my coffee how I like my rifles! :chris:

pullnshoot25
08-05-2010, 10:11 PM
Probably not...as much as I want to it seems like a good way to lose some expensive guns. :(

Carry a 91/30:D

I have plans for that...

pullnshoot25
08-05-2010, 10:16 PM
Like grammaton76, I lucc all the time as well and I have only been questioned once (see blog post about lafayette debate, blog link in sig line). If any cop asks anything about it, just tell them to pound glass, refuse the search, remain otherwise silent and walk on.

Purple K
08-05-2010, 10:25 PM
What kind of bag/lock do you use for LUCC ?

I use a Maxpedition Versipack Jumbo EDC, It has an interior holster and double magazine holder.

grammaton76
08-06-2010, 2:39 AM
If your firearm is unloaded and locked, it's legal. If it's legal, remain silent and CGF will almost always defend you.

-Gene

Folks - this is one of the most key posts in this thread, as to why LUCC is your best bet for everyday carry. And add to it that LUCC does NOT require you to maintain an omniscient awareness of all schools within 1000' of your location at all times. Absolutely impossible unless you're sticking within a well defined area which you know solidly - and even then, it's not 100% clear that an activist home school family couldn't create problems for you were they to post signage on their front door (not that it'd be required, but it might elevate their case to a slam-dunk). I'm far from anti home school - just, it could pose potential problems if just the wrong person knows the law and chooses to be malicious.

Anyway... note that CGF will generally not defend UOC'ers - it's not strategically valuable.

But LUCC is. Connect the dots as to why... and why a smart DA wouldn't really want to WIN a LUCC prosecution, much less file one, in a post-Macdonald world. ;)

pitchbaby
08-06-2010, 3:37 AM
In your face protests worked for gays, why not gunnies?

I'm not much of a fan of UOC, but Thayne may have stumbled onto a valid point here.

I'm just sayin'

xxsleepyxx
08-06-2010, 6:47 AM
Scenario Reverse:

What if you walk by a cop and tell him how nice your Kahr 380 is. Point to your hip and do the robot dance. Keep in mind you are LUCCing. This is fully legal. However, he misinterprets it and arrests you. Can he still make a case against you or is unexcusable under any circumstance. What might also happen is he calls his Lieutenant/Sergeant or whoever and they will show up. Will any amount of explanation from you amount to them letting you go?

Of course it is best to lay low and stay away from attention but since LUCC is legal, it should be okay to be open about it

I just feel like LUCC is a secret when it shouldn't have to be. For example with CCW permits, some folks inform LEOs upon their initial interaction. Until LUCC is that way, I feel it is still risky.

Paladin
08-06-2010, 8:09 AM
In your face protests worked for gays, why not gunnies?Re. gays: (1) A majority of Californians couldn't care one way or another re. "gay rights." A minority were against it, but a larger minority were for it.

(2) In CA, not only was the national entertainment and news MSM for it, but also the state and major local MSM (radio, TV, newspapers, magazines, etc.).

Re. guns: (1) I'd say a majority of Californians also don't care one way or another. (After a mass murder, then they're temporarily against us. After something like the Rodney King riots or the Katrina looting are they temporarily for us.) A minority is for us, but a larger minority is against us -- in the major urban power centers.

(2) The national, state, and major local MSM are all against us. Only some local media is either neutral or in favor of our RKBA.

MossbergMan
08-06-2010, 8:59 AM
Originally Posted by thayne
In your face protests worked for gays, why not gunnies?

Another difference folks is, when the gays demonstrated they carried signs expressing their views, their wants, their concerns and their complaints. We on the other hand are expecting people to be mind readers. We are just carrying guns on our hips in public (where most sheeple are not used to seeing them out of uniform)with no further explaination unless asked.

We get indignant and self rightous demanding everyone recognize our God given (not to mention constitutional) right to bear arms for self defense. Yet we seem unable to do the simplest of things....make a couple of signs explaining our actions (of open carry). "We are protesting opressive anti-gun laws by exercising our constitutional right to bear arms" "Ask us about our movement!"

If you are going to Open Carry Unloaded anything in public as a protest, make it a protest. Be loud, organized and without question clear on your/our demands. Otherwise you are viewed by most of the grass eating tree huggers that fear that they don't understand or agree with as juvenile, miss guided "gun nuts" that maybe shouldn't have guns in the first place.

Personally I think you're all bringing a load of hurt on all gun owners of this state by continuing this individual effort. Why do we remember the Black Panthers? It was a big, organized effort. Gay Pride parades? Why not a Gun Owners Rights parade? Get that 1919A1 in a red wagon on display. Show those military collectables. Demonstrate in a meaningful way, not in individual battles. United we stand, divided we look like a bunch of gun kooks.

FYI: If a peace officer, due to his/her training and experience suspects you may have a weapon (in a little locked pouch), they may legally detain you and conduct a search of your person and possession for weapons for their safety while conducting an interview. It is pursuant to Terry v. Ohio and is known as a "Terry Frisk or Search". Once a weapon is detected futher investigation is warranted and they can keep you until satisfied you are not a bad guy and your actions are legal. Your time, your choice.
I've found some people just liked to meet cops :yes:

Paladin
08-06-2010, 2:38 PM
Another difference folks is, when the gays demonstrated they carried signs expressing their views, their wants, their concerns and their complaints. We on the other hand are expecting people to be mind readers. We are just carrying guns on our hips in public (where most sheeple are not used to seeing them out of uniform)with no further explaination unless asked.

We get indignant and self rightous demanding everyone recognize our God given (not to mention constitutional) right to bear arms for self defense. Yet we seem unable to do the simplest of things....make a couple of signs explaining our actions (of open carry). "We are protesting opressive anti-gun laws by exercising our constitutional right to bear arms" "Ask us about our movement!"

If you are going to Open Carry Unloaded anything in public as a protest, make it a protest. Be loud, organized and without question clear on your/our demands.You make a very good point. I'd love to see a (empty holster?) protest rally at the entry way to SFPD, courthouse, or city hall with a bunch of people holding signs saying, "Californians shouldn't be 2nd class citizens -- stop infringing on our 2nd Amendment Rights!" and showing the map below. I'll bet 99 out of 100 SF residents don't know 40 out of 50 states are Shall Issue or better. Invite the media.

http://www.nraila.org/maps/rtc.jpg

MudCamper
08-06-2010, 2:46 PM
If AB1934 passes, I will become more active, and organize open carry events, and will carry my Remington 870, bristling with 00-buck rounds, in the side-saddle and butt-stock shell carriers. I will also keep a copy of People v Clark with me.

FERGUSON
08-06-2010, 3:02 PM
+100000000 WITH MUDCAMPER

Vox
08-06-2010, 3:07 PM
Right, that is ideal but sometimes cops will just start putting their hands on you and take that risk on their part.

That's what happened to me when I was UOCing a couple months back.

I was stopped, four police cars surrounded us. We were searched thouroughly, our wallets, cellphones, keys were taken out of our pockets, the LEOs took the firearms to their cars, ran serial numbers, harrassed us a bit about having a loaded magazine on the other side of the belt. detained us for about 10 minutes, then gave us our stuff back and told us to go home (we had just left my friends house and were walking to the store. none of use were concealing anything and we were all well dressed.)

rero360
08-06-2010, 3:07 PM
Coming from NY I can say that your map is incorrect Paladin, most of NY is actually a may issues/ shall issue state, only NYC is there only CCWs for the politically connected. Now some counties in the state like Monroe (city of Rochester) are rather limited in issuing permits (gee, pretty much most dangerous city in the state) where as other counties are very easy to get permits. Case in point, I was issued my concealed carry permit in Onondaga county (city of Syracuse) with no issues what so ever, transfered it to Chautauqua (south of Buffalo) then transfered it to Erie county (Buffalo) all with no issues or problems and never once had any additional restrictions, outside of federal ones, placed on my permit.

So at the very least it should be green on the map as the majority of the state falls more in line with that.

Heck, I even drove down to PA once and filled out the paperwork and submitted my application for a non residence permit right then and there and just had to drive back down 2 weeks later to pick up the permit.

safewaysecurity
08-06-2010, 3:09 PM
That's what happened to me when I was UOCing a couple months back.

I was stopped, four police cars surrounded us. We were searched thouroughly, our wallets, cellphones, keys were taken out of our pockets, the LEOs took the firearms to their cars, ran serial numbers, harrassed us a bit about having a loaded magazine on the other side of the belt. detained us for about 10 minutes, then gave us our stuff back and told us to go home (we had just left my friends house and were walking to the store. none of use were concealing anything and we were all well dressed.)

Get their badge numbers/ name? Did you file a complaint? Contemplate charges?

Vox
08-06-2010, 3:10 PM
Get their badge numbers/ name? Did you file a complaint? Contemplate charges?

I filed a complaint but nothing has really come of it yet. I admittedly dropped the ball rather epically on this one I only got one name and didn't have any way to record what was going on.

grammaton76
08-06-2010, 3:44 PM
Scenario Reverse:

What if you walk by a cop and tell him how nice your Kahr 380 is. Point to your hip and do the robot dance. Keep in mind you are LUCCing. This is fully legal. However, he misinterprets it and arrests you. Can he still make a case against you or is unexcusable under any circumstance. What might also happen is he calls his Lieutenant/Sergeant or whoever and they will show up. Will any amount of explanation from you amount to them letting you go?

The answer to this depends on whether or not the LEO minds reading CPC. More importantly, what matters is that they've had someone acting strangely and (probably) obnoxious, which indicates the guy may not be "all there".

Most likely this would result in you being booked on CPC 12025 and released as soon as the DA looks at it. The LEOs will rest happy on qualified immunity and you will have been hassled and inconvenienced. To the LEOs, your hassle and inconvenience will be payback for dancing the robot in front of them and bothering them.

Seriously, try substituting cigarette for gun. It will probably be assumed that the weird attention-getting behavior probably means you're some kind of pot activist and that it's not tobacco.

Macdonald wasn't about the right to go taunting police officers - it was about the 2A. Getting way off on the taunting tangent is counter-productive to the self defense aspect. I'd rather have 1000 people LUCC'ing daily in my city than have one or two guys doing the robot dance with it to annoy LEOs. If a test case ever went in front of a jury, I would sure hope that it wasn't the robot dancer because a jury is unlikely to have much sympathy for that guy.

Of course it is best to lay low and stay away from attention but since LUCC is legal, it should be okay to be open about it

I just feel like LUCC is a secret when it shouldn't have to be. For example with CCW permits, some folks inform LEOs upon their initial interaction. Until LUCC is that way, I feel it is still risky.

It's not a secret, people just tend to chant really loudly about UOC and forget all about LUCC.

pullnshoot25
08-06-2010, 5:13 PM
That's what happened to me when I was UOCing a couple months back.

I was stopped, four police cars surrounded us. We were searched thouroughly, our wallets, cellphones, keys were taken out of our pockets, the LEOs took the firearms to their cars, ran serial numbers, harrassed us a bit about having a loaded magazine on the other side of the belt. detained us for about 10 minutes, then gave us our stuff back and told us to go home (we had just left my friends house and were walking to the store. none of use were concealing anything and we were all well dressed.)

Story link? Have you posted this before? If not, why not?

MudCamper
08-06-2010, 5:14 PM
My problem with LUCC has always been access. Find me a lock that I can open A) with one hand, B) in one second, and C) without looking at it, and make it small enough to go on a tiny box that I wear on my belt, and I'd be an immediate convert to LUCC.

diginit
08-06-2010, 6:50 PM
My problem with LUCC has always been access. Find me a lock that I can open A) with one hand, B) in one second, and C) without looking at it, and make it small enough to go on a tiny box that I wear on my belt, and I'd be an immediate convert to LUCC.

You mean like these?(sorry for the lousy pic) alittle permabond,if you like, on the lower 2 tumblers makes it a snap to open quickly. Available at OSH.
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj107/diginit/Ammo%20Testing/ded9c094.jpg

advocatusdiaboli
08-06-2010, 8:04 PM
In your face protests worked for gays, why not gunnies?

Because being thought a homosexual won't get you swept, "proned", and arrested that's why--at least not in CA.

MudCamper
08-07-2010, 10:55 AM
You mean like these?(sorry for the lousy pic) alittle permabond,if you like, on the lower 2 tumblers makes it a snap to open quickly. Available at OSH.

Well they don't appear to meet my criteria. Can you open them with only one hand, without looking at them, in only a second or two?

diginit
08-07-2010, 11:29 AM
Easily. With two of the tumblers glued to the unlocked combination. The third just takes one click depending on where you set it when locked. Either way, all you do is spin the unglued tumbler and the lock will open when it hits the correct number 1-10.

Vox
08-07-2010, 12:22 PM
Story link? Have you posted this before? If not, why not?

I was looking for it, I thought it was posted on here before but I guess it was posted on the OpenCarry.org forums instead.. Should I start a new thread and post the story? I had a full write-up I sentto the VictorValley Daily Press but they never printed it.