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View Full Version : All this talk about AB962...


LibertyGuy
08-04-2010, 6:36 AM
Is getting me a little anxious. I want to defeat this thing pretty bad but even when that's done I still won't be able to order ammunition online since I live in Los Angeles which has it's own restriction on it. To all you L.A. Calgunners and others concerned, what can we do to wipe this silly city ordinance off the books? I hate seeing all the deals for surplus ammo and not being able to get any!

hoffmang
08-04-2010, 8:16 AM
Though I would have to look more closely, we may be able to end the LA restrictions once we defeat the state wide restrictions.

-Gene

Blackhawk556
08-04-2010, 11:05 AM
^^^^
that would be awesome for the thousands of gunners in the LA area

curtisfong
08-04-2010, 11:07 AM
Please! Please! Please!

Thank you :)

boxbro
08-04-2010, 11:17 AM
Is getting me a little anxious. I want to defeat this thing pretty bad but even when that's done I still won't be able to order ammunition online since I live in Los Angeles which has it's own restriction on it. To all you L.A. Calgunners and others concerned, what can we do to wipe this silly city ordinance off the books? I hate seeing all the deals for surplus ammo and not being able to get any!

Why not have a friend that is not in LA order for you, at least for now ?

383green
08-04-2010, 11:24 AM
A postal mailing box at a Postal Annex (or similar store) in a nearby community without an ammunition restriction may be an option for some folks, too.

boxbro
08-04-2010, 12:03 PM
A postal mailing box at a Postal Annex (or similar store) in a nearby community without an ammunition restriction may be an option for some folks, too.

Yes, but it costs a decent monthly amount which might might end up being more than the money saved by ordering online.

bodger
08-04-2010, 12:49 PM
Though I would have to look more closely, we may be able to end the LA restrictions once we defeat the state wide restrictions.

-Gene


There is a thread about Midway USA refusing to sell ammo to Los Angeles zip codes.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=328197

They claim the USPS sets the destination restriction boundaries based on local ordinances. Sounds like a crock to me.

I live in a Los Angeles zip and get ammunition delivered via UPS frequently from large well established vendors. No Law Dogs weighed into that thread, I've been wondering if the language of Chapter V, Article 5, 55.11 c of the Los Angeles code is even enforceable against a seller that is not in the City of LA.

And it seems inconceivable that they could hang a case on a buyer. That would about the same as trying to prosecute someone because the clerk at a gun shop didn't process the ammo sale correctly. Forgot to ask for ID or 'print or something.

But, in this state and in LA, who knows what they might try.

Chapter V, Article 5, 55.11 c
No vendor shall sell or otherwise transfer ownership of firearm ammunition without at the time of purchase recording the following information on a form to be prescribed by the Board of Police Commissioners: 1. transaction date 2. name, address, date of birth 3. drivers license number 4. brand, type and amount of ammunition 5. signature 6. name of sales person. The vendor shall also at the time of purchase or transfer obtain the right thumb print of the purchaser on the above form.

hoffmang
08-04-2010, 1:43 PM
I know for a fact that Sacramento has specifically said that it's parallel restriction does not and is not intended to stop mail order ammunition shipments to Sac. As such, this may simply be poor interpretation by Midway.

-Gene

navyinrwanda
08-04-2010, 2:53 PM
The City of Oakland has a similar ordinance. Oakland Municipal Code § 9.20 requires that “All ammunition sales must be conducted with the actual purchaser present in a face-to-face transaction.”

It has also been updated to reflect the upcoming implementation of AB 962. Oakland's ordinance covers all types of ammunition – not just handgun ammunition – noting that “The City Council further finds that, despite the passage of AB 962, there will remain the need to maintain a record of ammunition sales involving ammunition not principally used in handguns that is not covered under AB 962.” So while § 9.20.040 specifically exempts handgun ammunition transactions occurring after February 1, 2011, it will remain in effect for all other types of ammunition.

Several vendors will not ship ammo to Oakland addresses (including MidwayUSA). Getting rid of AB 962 will be great, but it won't make much difference for Oakland (or LA) residents if these bad laws are still on the books.

bodger
08-04-2010, 3:28 PM
snip

Getting rid of AB 962 will be great, but it won't make much difference for Oakland (or LA) residents if these bad laws are still on the books.


Which is grotesquely ridiculous since the laws don't apply to internet sales anyway.

Midway and all the others are caving into the antis. They'll be the first to stop all sales to CA if AB 962 actually goes into effect. Which seems implausible at this time considering the work that's being done to stop it.

CEDaytonaRydr
08-04-2010, 3:58 PM
The City of Oakland has a similar ordinance. Oakland Municipal Code § 9.20 requires that “All ammunition sales must be conducted with the actual purchaser present in a face-to-face transaction.”


It would be interesting to see what that has done to crime stats in the area... :confused:

bodger
08-04-2010, 4:39 PM
It would be interesting to see what that has done to crime stats in the area... :confused:


There are hardly any FFLs left in Los Angeles. To my knowledge, that hasn't done a damn thing to reduce crime. I can't imagine these stupid ammo laws do much.
Of course, the LAPD Gun Squad did bust Alfonso's Holsters in North Hollywood for selling holsters that would fit small handguns, the size of which was outlawed for sale and use by the city council.
I'm sure that ordinance prevented a lot of criminals from concealing their pocket rockets.
:rolleyes:

Another fine law brought to you by Mike Feuer. (When he was a councilman)

joedogboy
08-04-2010, 4:55 PM
Getting rid of AB 962 will be great, but it won't make much difference for Oakland (or LA) residents if these bad laws are still on the books.

Getting AB962 thrown out in court gives precedent to challenge other ammunition bans/restrictions.

If it is not legal for the state to do it, it can't be legal for a city or county to do it either.

curtisfong
08-04-2010, 5:14 PM
The problem is, if it doesn't apply to internet/mailorder sales, and only to vendors within the city, and that prevents the law from being repealed.... vendors like Midway are still free to pretend (wrongly) that it still applies to them.

Result: Midway still won't ship into a Los Angeles zip code.

What is the REAL solution?

navyinrwanda
08-04-2010, 5:24 PM
Several vendors will not ship ammo to Oakland addresses (including MidwayUSA). Getting rid of AB 962 will be great, but it won't make much difference for Oakland (or LA) residents if these bad laws are still on the books.

Which is grotesquely ridiculous since the laws don't apply to internet sales anyway.

Midway and all the others are caving into the antis. They'll be the first to stop all sales to CA if AB 962 actually goes into effect. Which seems implausible at this time considering the work that's being done to stop it.
OK, I give up. It's clear that there's no civility here, and apparently no hope for any. Calguns.net (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/index.php) gives credence to the notion that all gun owners are hot-headed reactionaries with no self-control.

“Grotesquely ridiculous” you say? Oakland's municipal ordinance doesn't “apply to Internet sales?” Have you even read the ordinance? Are you an attorney? Do you live in Oakland? Have you tried to have ammo shipped to an Oakland address?

Likely not. But you sure can type fast.

wildhawker
08-04-2010, 5:49 PM
I prepared analysis for and provided testimony at the first Oakland City Council meeting on the ordinance in question, as did many other honorable gun rights advocates from this community.

Bodger, I would suggest you do some due diligence prior to asserting something is "grotesquely ridiculous".

joedogboy
08-04-2010, 6:29 PM
The problem is, if it doesn't apply to internet/mailorder sales, and only to vendors within the city, and that prevents the law from being repealed.... vendors like Midway are still free to pretend (wrongly) that it still applies to them.

Result: Midway still won't ship into a Los Angeles zip code.

What is the REAL solution?

When a court finds that the law doesn't apply to internet/mail order sales, then companies like Midway will not feel that they have to "cya" about other possible interpretations of the law.

joedogboy
08-04-2010, 6:33 PM
Midway and all the others are caving into the antis. They'll be the first to stop all sales to CA if AB 962 actually goes into effect. Which seems implausible at this time considering the work that's being done to stop it.

Midway and other businesses are covering their butts to avoid any legal action being taken against them because the laws - which may not be intended to apply to mail-order and internet sales - have vague enough language that they could be interpreted as such.

They not only have to fear legal action being taken against them by the city (or state, in the case of AB962), but by suits from customers who are unhappy that they got into trouble for purchasing something from the company.

Shotgun Man
08-04-2010, 7:09 PM
A lot of big-time vendors will ship to LA.

LibertyGuy
08-04-2010, 7:23 PM
A lot of big-time vendors will ship to LA.

Which ones?

bodger
08-04-2010, 8:27 PM
OK, I give up. It's clear that there's no civility here, and apparently no hope for any. Calguns.net (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/index.php) gives credence to the notion that all gun owners are hot-headed reactionaries with no self-control.

“Grotesquely ridiculous” you say? Oakland's municipal ordinance doesn't “apply to Internet sales?” Have you even read the ordinance? Are you an attorney? Do you live in Oakland? Have you tried to have ammo shipped to an Oakland address?

Likely not. But you sure can type fast.

I prepared analysis for and provided testimony at the first Oakland City Council meeting on the ordinance in question, as did many other honorable gun rights advocates from this community.

Bodger, I would suggest you do some due diligence prior to asserting something is "grotesquely ridiculous".


I gotta admit I am confused here. I think my post was misconstrued. Probably due to being improperly worded in haste.

My comment was directed at the "bad laws" that are still on the books and might be even after (if) AB962 goes into effect, and it seems questionable that they are actually enforceable on out of state vendors. That's what I meant was grotesquely ridiculous. Oakland, Sacramento, Los Angeles, any of these municipalities that have local ordinances restricting ammo sales.

If that's still pissing you guys off, I apologize and ask for clarification.

I think AB962 is a grotesquely ridiculous law, is that bad and not civil to state?
The only due diligence I've done is reading hundreds of threads and dozens of posts on CalGuns about AB962. And participated in the calls and faxes and e-mails to the Governor urging him to veto.

Navyinrwanda: Don't give up yet, I'm pretty sure this was a misunderstood post, nothing negative was being directed at you or your post.

bodger
08-04-2010, 8:34 PM
Which ones?



Cabela's.

stitchnicklas
08-04-2010, 8:39 PM
Which is grotesquely ridiculous since the laws don't apply to internet sales anyway.

Midway and all the others are caving into the antis. They'll be the first to stop all sales to CA if AB 962 actually goes into effect. Which seems implausible at this time considering the work that's being done to stop it.

actually i have spoken to the people at midway about ab 962 and they understand the section about 03ffl + coe combo being exempt from the bill,so get your ffl and coe now....

boycott stupid laws i say.....:D

bodger
08-04-2010, 8:39 PM
Midway and other businesses are covering their butts to avoid any legal action being taken against them because the laws - which may not be intended to apply to mail-order and internet sales - have vague enough language that they could be interpreted as such.

They not only have to fear legal action being taken against them by the city (or state, in the case of AB962), but by suits from customers who are unhappy that they got into trouble for purchasing something from the company.


I've often wondered about the liabilities as a buyer. If I purchase ammo face to face and the clerk forgets to take my fingerprint, could I get in trouble?
That might be a different situation than ordering over the internet, obviously.
The reason you state above for Midway's policy seems to be the only plausible explanation.

As far as the Los Angeles ordinance goes, there doesn't seem to be any language directed at the buyer, only the sellers.

bodger
08-04-2010, 8:55 PM
actually i have spoken to the people at midway about ab 962 and they understand the section about 03ffl + coe combo being exempt from the bill,so get your ffl and coe now....

boycott stupid laws i say.....:D


That's good to know that Midway understands that, as it was one of the concerns of a lot of the guys who have the 03 if AB962 took effect.

There was a lot of speculation that out of state vendors would just cut off the whole state to cover their arses and not bother to actually learn the laws.

I do wish Midway would offer a better explanation than the Post Office for their reason not to ship to LA though. :D

wildhawker
08-04-2010, 9:04 PM
bodger, it looks like I misread your post as implying some sort of judgment on Navy's previous comments. Thanks for clarifying. -BC

bodger
08-05-2010, 7:26 AM
bodger, it looks like I misread your post as implying some sort of judgment on Navy's previous comments. Thanks for clarifying. -BC



I was commenting on his statement that there's a possibility that when AB962 goes away, it won't make much difference for the residents of municipalities who have their own patchwork laws on ammo purchases.

I believe he is right, and that is a bad situation. It will be a travesty if AB962 goes away and we still have to individually fight these city halls that want to make their own laws.

I'm still not sure what Navy thought I meant, but I think we've cleared it up now.

CMonfort
08-05-2010, 1:18 PM
Cities throughout the state have several versions of this bill. Most do not include a ban on internet sales. Also, most cities do not have a local ammo sales registration scheme at all.

If AB 962 is struck down, some city's ordinances will be impacted. Interestingly, some local ordinances include a sunset provisions which states that if AB 962 is overturned that the local requirements will apply only to long gun ammo. So we could potentially end up with situation where handgun ammo purchases go unregistered while long gun ammo purchases are registered (though this would only be in a few cities that passed this type of ordinance very recently).

Paul S
08-05-2010, 1:31 PM
Which is grotesquely ridiculous since the laws don't apply to internet sales anyway.

Midway and all the others are caving into the antis. They'll be the first to stop all sales to CA if AB 962 actually goes into effect. Which seems implausible at this time considering the work that's being done to stop it.

While you may very well be spot on here...is it possible while we view it as caving...it is really based upon a business decision saying...the company just doesn't need the hassles and potential litigation? Not trying to start an argument..just tossing out another rationale.

Unfortunately for all of us the end result is exactly the same.

Paul S

bodger
08-05-2010, 2:36 PM
Cities throughout the state have several versions of this bill. Most do not include a ban on internet sales. Also, most cities do not have a local ammo sales registration scheme at all.

If AB 962 is struck down, some city's ordinances will be impacted. Interestingly, some local ordinances include a sunset provisions which states that if AB 962 is overturned that the local requirements will apply only to long gun ammo. So we could potentially end up with situation where handgun ammo purchases go unregistered while long gun ammo purchases are registered (though this would only be in a few cities that passed this type of ordinance very recently).

These sunset provisions you speak of are about as absurd as it gets. If the state law gets overturned, they will only require the long gun ammo to be restricted?
Is there any reasoning behind that other than just control for control's sake?

I have confidence that AB962 is going to be struck down. But I also think that I am going to wake up the very same morning when there is no AB962 and find that I still have to give a fingerprint to buy ammo in Los Angeles. Although I haven't bought any ammo in LA for a long time.

It's good to know that most cities don't include a ban on internet sales. I've often felt that was the case with Los Angeles' Chapter V, Article 5, 55.11 c.
but have never been able to get a definitive answer to whether it is illegal for a seller to ship here. Or a buyer to be on the receiving end. LAPD won't answer that question, I can tell you that.

While you may very well be spot on here...is it possible while we view it as caving...it is really based upon a business decision saying...the company just doesn't need the hassles and potential litigation? Not trying to start an argument..just tossing out another rationale.

Unfortunately for all of us the end result is exactly the same.

Paul S

I can see that side of the story, it being a business decision to avoid litigation. And it's Midway's business, so they have the right to do what they want.

I just think that in the case of the Los Angeles ordinance, it's a stretch and an overreaction for Midway to say it's illegal for them to ship ammo to an LA zip code. And when I called them on it, they blamed the postal service of all things.

I recall someone on CalGuns, and I think it was a LEO, stating that Midway does (or did) a lot of business with the LAPD. That may have a bearing on their decision as well if it's true.

It's a sorry state of affairs in any case. I've lived in Los Angeles for a long time (too long) and I really hate to see what has happened to the guns and ammo business here. I have never bought ammunition and given my ID and fingerprint though, and I never will.