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bodger
08-03-2010, 1:57 PM
I got a "happy anniversary" e-mail from Midway USA congratulating me on it being a year since I created an account with them.

I replied to that e-mail informing Midway that I will no longer do business with them because they refuse to ship ammunition to my zip code in the City of Los Angeles, while many other vendors will send an order here. I created my "account" with Midway, and then was denied the ammunition I was trying to order. Nothing to celebrate there.

I can get ammunition shipped here from a dozen other vendors, and do so regularly.

They cite the "postal regulations" as one reason for their restriction. I didn't know it was still legal to ship ammo via USPS anyway, and in any case, UPS will accept ammo shipments all day so what's the difference.

Here's their reply:



Dear Mr. ,

At MidwayUSA, we do our best to comply with all local, state and federal laws regarding restrictions on certain products that we sell. Please understand that the destination restriction boundaries are controlled by the United States Postal Service, based off of township addresses and not regulated by MidwayUSA. We are able to send the majority of our products to all 50 states, and are constantly reviewing these restrictions since it is in our customers' best interest to be able to receive our full line of products. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause. I've included below a section of the law that MidwayUSA used to make the decision to restrict shipments of ammunition to Los Angeles.

Los Angeles: no ammunition, Chapter V, Article 5, 55.11 c No vendor shall sell or otherwise transfer ownership of firearm ammunition without at the time of purchase recording the following information on a form to be prescribed by the Board of Police Commissioners: 1. transaction date 2. name, address, date of birth 3. drivers license number 4. brand, type and amount of ammunition 5. signature 6. name of sales person. The vendor shall also at the time of purchase or transfer obtain the right thumb print of the purchaser on the above form.

If you have any additional questions or comments, please feel free to contact us at 1-800-243-3220. Our hours of operation are Monday through Friday 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. CT; Saturday and Sunday 9 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. CT. You may also email us at customerservice@midwayusa.com.

Thanks for Your Business!

Cathey
MidwayUSA Customer Service

vincewarde
08-03-2010, 2:10 PM
Re: USPS I think they simply are the most reliable source of info as to what can be shipped to what address. In addition I believe that at least some postal regs (i.e. mail fraud and possibly others) apply even if the mail is not used.

I seriously doubt that you will find any vendor willing to ship ammo in violation of a state or local law. If they are doing so, it is a big mistake on their part.

The good news is that if the suit against AB962 prevails on the grounds of federal preemption, the similar laws in L.A., Sacramento County and elsewhere should be nullified as well.

Now if AB962 goes into effect and they won't ship to someone exempt via a C&R and COE - then they would loose my business.

stitchnicklas
08-03-2010, 2:10 PM
seems you live in the wrong zip code,and if other vendors are shipping then keep it quiet ...

curtisfong
08-03-2010, 2:13 PM
Unfortunately, I don't anybody stepping up to the plate to challenge Chapter V, Article 5, 55.11 c.

Perhaps this will have to wait until after the AB962 suit.

CGF hasn't said anything about it, but obviously that doesn't mean it isn't already in the pipeline.

bodger
08-03-2010, 2:16 PM
Re: USPS I think they simply are the most reliable source of info as to what can be shipped to what address. In addition I believe that at least some postal regs (i.e. mail fraud and possibly others) apply even if the mail is not used.

I seriously doubt that you will find any vendor willing to ship ammo in violation of a state or local law. If they are doing so, it is a big mistake on their part.


This is why I am confused by how many vendors will ship to Los Angeles via UPS. Cabela's is a pretty big outfit and they'll do it.
Does the LA city code not have teeth on restricting internet sales and they know it, or is Cabela's just ignorant?
Seems like Cabela's would have a legal department the same as Midway must.

Dirk Tungsten
08-03-2010, 2:16 PM
The good news is that if the suit against AB962 prevails on the grounds of federal preemption, the similar laws in L.A., Sacramento County and elsewhere should be nullified as well.

.

Emphasis Mine; There is no law, regulation etc, forbidding shipping ammo to Sacramento county OR city. I don't know why certain vendors (Palmetto State Armory, looking at you) continue to propogate this myth.

Also, Midway has been a pain in the *** to deal with re: shipping. I posted a thread a while back because they wouldn't allow UPS to leave my RCBS press at my door, nor would they allow me to pick it up at the depot. The calimed it was due to federal regulations. WTF?

thayne
08-03-2010, 2:31 PM
Since when do they ship ammo USPS? I thought ammo had to go UPS?

bigstick61
08-03-2010, 2:39 PM
Since when do they ship ammo USPS? I thought ammo had to go UPS?

I have heard, but could well have heard wrong, that shipping ammo via USPS is not illegal, but that it goes against their regs and they generally will not accept packages known to contain ammo. That being said I have in the past had vendors ship ammo to me from out of state via USPS marked ORM-D Cartridges, Small Arms, so some post office somewhere must be accepting these packages, since they are clearly marked as containing ammo.

I think being able to ship ammo via USPS would be great, since their flat rate boxes are perfect for it and cost less, for lower quantities considerably so, than either UPS or FEDEX.

383green
08-03-2010, 2:41 PM
I've had zero problems ordering anything from Midway, including ammo, primers and powder. But then, I'm not in LA city/county, and my shipping address is a postal mailing box (not a P.O. Box), so there's always somebody there to sign for orders (and also to kid me about the boxes I receive with all of the big hazmat warnings on the outside ;)).

bodger
08-03-2010, 3:12 PM
Here is some info from the USPS. See the link for App A to USPS Pub 52 which lists DOT hazardous materials and if they are mailable or not. If you look up Cartridges, Small Arms; you will see that they are prohibited in the mail.


http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52apxa.htm


I think Midway in just caving in to the antis and covering their arses. I know of no instance where anyone, buyer or seller, has run afoul of any legal problems over an internet ammo shipment to the City of LA.

The law dogs may know better, but I think the sale doesn't occur in Los Angeles, so they don't have a leg to stand on.
I also find it hard to believe that the USPS would be the source for information regarding what can or can't be shipped into a municipality based on LOCAL ordinances.

Sacramento has a similar ordinance, anyone ever hear of someone catching a case up there from an ammo delivery?

MasterYong
08-03-2010, 3:14 PM
Why buy ammo form MidWay anyways? It's one of the most expensive of the "big guys" to order from online anyway.

Cabela's is way cheaper. MidWay also loses points on ammo for not allowing me to order more than a few boxes at a time ("due to limited quantities"...). If you're going to order form one of the big guys, order form Cabela's- you can always find a free shipping coupon somewhere for them too.

bodger
08-03-2010, 3:31 PM
Why buy ammo form MidWay anyways? It's one of the most expensive of the "big guys" to order from online anyway.

Cabela's is way cheaper. MidWay also loses points on ammo for not allowing me to order more than a few boxes at a time ("due to limited quantities"...). If you're going to order form one of the big guys, order form Cabela's- you can always find a free shipping coupon somewhere for them too.

I agree. I use Cabela's a lot and they ship right to my door.

I can't remember what ammo it was that Midway had at the time. But I added a couple of boxes to my order of other non-ammo related stuff. A part for my S&W revolver if I recall. They rejected the ammo portion, so I cancelled the whole thing and never ordered anything from them again.

Then today I get an anniversary greeting.
How nice.

383green
08-03-2010, 3:32 PM
Here is some info from the USPS. See the link for App A to USPS Pub 52 which lists DOT hazardous materials and if they are mailable or not. If you look up Cartridges, Small Arms; you will see that they are prohibited in the mail.

I don't think that publication is part of the story about Midway not shipping ammo to LA. They're well-aware of the general (non-LA-specific) shipping requirements for ammo, powder and primers, and they do ship them to other parts of CA using the shipping services and package markings that are required for such shipments. Also, since unloaded bullets aren't treated as hazardous materials, they're quite happy to stuff a USPS flat-rate box full of them to save you money on shipping a bunch of lead. ;)

I've experienced paranoia and lack of cooperation from the likes of Cheaper than Dirt and Sportsman's Guide, but I haven't seen the same from Midway so far (with the possible exception of their policy for LA; I hope somebody with a legal background can chime in about whether Midway's interpretation of LA's laws is correct).

stitchnicklas
08-03-2010, 3:35 PM
midway has good prices for dealer accounts,maybe look at that??

your zip code is the problem and if you are receiving ammo from other vendors do not name them,it could screw you or them...

JJE
08-03-2010, 3:36 PM
Midway is a private company and they have the right to ship or refuse to ship anything to anybody. On the other hand, I can choose to spend my $$ anywhere I want, and I choose to support companies that will sell me the products that I want instead of making excuses.

For the record, Midway will not ship ammo, bullets, primers or BRASS to San Francisco, which is why I can't remember the last time I placed a Midway order.

TempleKnight
08-03-2010, 3:42 PM
Emphasis Mine; There is no law, regulation etc, forbidding shipping ammo to Sacramento county OR city. I don't know why certain vendors (Palmetto State Armory, looking at you) continue to propogate this myth.


I believed that AB962 was modeled on the Sac ordinance, also. So I did a search on Calguns and you are correct. There is no reason for ammo vendors not to ship to Sac.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=246494

dbldblu
08-03-2010, 3:47 PM
A few years back Midway would not ship ammo to me in Reno, NV! They claimed that some Reno municipal code prevented them from doing so. They were not persuaded by my argument that the City of Reno could not regulate interstate commerce. I bought ammo from their competitors during the time it took them to figure it out.

bodger
08-03-2010, 4:06 PM
midway has good prices for dealer accounts,maybe look at that??

your zip code is the problem and if you are receiving ammo from other vendors do not name them,it could screw you or them...


Los Angeles: no ammunition, Chapter V, Article 5, 55.11 c No vendor shall sell or otherwise transfer ownership of firearm ammunition without at the time of purchase recording the following information on a form to be prescribed by the Board of Police Commissioners: 1. transaction date 2. name, address, date of birth 3. drivers license number 4. brand, type and amount of ammunition 5. signature 6. name of sales person. The vendor shall also at the time of purchase or transfer obtain the right thumb print of the purchaser on the above form.

No mention of any responsibility on the part of the buyer in an ammo transaction in Los Angeles City. I'm not at all worried about getting screwed on that one.

Maybe the out of state vendor could have a problem, but I think it's a stretch to believe that. I question whether Cabela's or any others who ship here would be taking the risk if the LA ordinance had any real teeth.

When the Law Dogs get AB962 struck down, I wonder if any of these local ordinances will have any relevancy at all when it comes to internet sales. Probably have to challenge them with a lawsuit though.

bodger
08-03-2010, 4:12 PM
I don't think that publication is part of the story about Midway not shipping ammo to LA.

This why I find Midway's reference to the USPS's destination restriction boundaries as the basis for their shipping policies to be questionable. I believe the USPS follows their own guidelines and federal law, but I don't believe they are restricting anything solely on the basis of a local ordinance.

At MidwayUSA, we do our best to comply with all local, state and federal laws regarding restrictions on certain products that we sell. Please understand that the destination restriction boundaries are controlled by the United States Postal Service, based off of township addresses and not regulated by MidwayUSA.

383green
08-03-2010, 4:18 PM
This why I find Midway's reference to the USPS's destination restriction boundaries as the basis for their shipping policies to be questionable.

Yeah, that part of their comment doesn't make sense to me, either.

Somehow, we need to find a way to take down the local ordinances that trigger these shipping restrictions in the first place. Whether a shipper has a legitimate legal reason to refuse shipment or they're just being paranoid, the ordinances in question have a chilling effect upon commerce and the exercise of a fundamental, protected, natural right.

dfletcher
08-03-2010, 4:27 PM
Now if AB962 goes into effect and they won't ship to someone exempt via a C&R and COE - then they would loose my business.

I would be rather surprised if Midway honors the C & R/COE exemption. Midway takes the approach that SF law precludes them from shipping ammo to me, the SF law has requirements that ammo & components sold in SF must meet ID requirements - Midway has interpreted that to apply to them. Midway is generally OK on other items so I do buy from them. But last week they screwed me out of my birthday discount .....:chris:

bodger
08-03-2010, 4:31 PM
If AB962 goes into effect, we'll no doubt see a lot of vendors who just won't ship to CA regardless of whether it's legal or not due to a C&R/COE.

Just like Midway won't ship brass to San Francisco. They don't want to bother with the antis. Covering themselves, whatever.
Caving in to the antis if you ask me. Exactly what they want.

raycm2
08-03-2010, 4:37 PM
Emphasis Mine; There is no law, regulation etc, forbidding shipping ammo to Sacramento county OR city. I don't know why certain vendors (Palmetto State Armory, looking at you) continue to propogate this myth.
Not so.
5.66.020 Ammunition sales log required.

An ammunition vendor shall maintain an ammunition sales log which records all firearm ammunition sales as required by this chapter. The transferee shall provide, and the ammunition vendor shall record on the ammunition sales log, at the time of sale, the following information for each sale of firearms ammunition:

A. The name, address, and date of birth of the transferee;

B. The date of the sale;

C. The transferee’s driver’s license number, state identification card number, passport number, or other valid government-issued photographic identification;

D. The brand, type, and quantity of firearms ammunition transferred;

E. The identity of the person transferring the firearms ammunition on behalf of the ammunition vendor;

F. The transferee’s signature and right thumbprint. (Ord. 2007-065 § 1)

10fcp
08-03-2010, 4:57 PM
Midway definately is on my s... list. On my shipping notes I always write "please require signature". If I'm not home or my neighbor I'm SOL. I can't even go to the depot and get them where I have to show ID and sign for them. After a long phone conversation with them explaining how rediculous this was all I got was we'll try 3 times and if nobody is there to sign they will ship it back to Midway. I also noticed Midsouth is doing this too if you require a signature. The lady at the shipping department at Midsouth told me to just have it shipped to the depot and hold it for pickup. I'm not taking a day off work to wait for UPS.

383green
08-03-2010, 5:04 PM
Midway definately is on my s... list. On my shipping notes I always write "please require signature". If I'm not home or my neighbor I'm SOL. I can't even go to the depot and get them where I have to show ID and sign for them. After a long phone conversation with them explaining how rediculous this was all I got was we'll try 3 times and if nobody is there to sign they will ship it back to Midway. I also noticed Midsouth is doing this too if you require a signature. The lady at the shipping department at Midsouth told me to just have it shipped to the depot and hold it for pickup. I'm not taking a day off work to wait for UPS.

I don't understand. What you describe (trying three times and then returning the package to the sender; not allowing depot pickup of the package) sounds to me like UPS's normal policy for packages that require a signature. So, how is it Midway's or Midsouth's fault if you ask them to require a signature, but you don't like the way that UPS handles packages that require a signature? Why is Midway on your **** list for doing exactly what you asked them to? :confused:

Silverlake223
08-03-2010, 6:01 PM
This is EXACTLY what happened to me with Midway less than a month ago! Same issue, so I then bought from Cabelas ;)

bodger
08-03-2010, 6:29 PM
This is EXACTLY what happened to me with Midway less than a month ago! Same issue, so I then bought from Cabelas ;)


Same here, which is exactly why I don't believe the City of Los Angeles can do a damn thing about it when we order online and get it delivered here.

It obviously applies to ammo sellers and face to face sales at an FFL within the city limits.

Any legal eagles know the score on this?

motorhead
08-04-2010, 11:26 AM
midway has so-so prices, even on sale. their customer service, to me at least, has always been A1. but i'm not in l.a.. try aimsurplus. don't know their shipping regs but they have killer prices.

wheels
08-04-2010, 11:44 AM
WHy don't you guys send midway a copy of your invoices from Cabela's for a month or two. If they are really losing business for no valid reason they might re-think their position.

Wherryj
08-04-2010, 12:34 PM
Why buy ammo form MidWay anyways? It's one of the most expensive of the "big guys" to order from online anyway.

Cabela's is way cheaper. MidWay also loses points on ammo for not allowing me to order more than a few boxes at a time ("due to limited quantities"...). If you're going to order form one of the big guys, order form Cabela's- you can always find a free shipping coupon somewhere for them too.

I've used both and I find it a toss up as to which one has the best price. It sort of depends upon whether one has a sale or not.

As for the limited quantities, I've had issues with Cabela's as well. I believe that it has to do with a lot of people "stocking up" in case these mail order ammo laws actually go "live" and from people worrying that the standing administration might be anti-gun.

It isn't strictly a MidWay issue.

phil conrad
08-04-2010, 12:35 PM
To me it seems midway just doesn't cut it anymore. During the primer shortage they would not accept backorders. I would get these notifications they were in. By the time I ordered they were out. Graffs would take backorders. I only use midway when no one else has what I need.

bodger
08-04-2010, 12:40 PM
midway has so-so prices, even on sale. their customer service, to me at least, has always been A1. but i'm not in l.a.. try aimsurplus. don't know their shipping regs but they have killer prices.


Good to know, thanks. I'll check them out.

WHy don't you guys send midway a copy of your invoices from Cabela's for a month or two. If they are really losing business for no valid reason they might re-think their position.

That's not a bad idea. I sent Midway USA a reply stating that they would be well served to delve further into the Los Angeles ordinance to ascertain whether or not they would actually be in violation of law by sending ammunition shipments to Los Angeles zip codes.

I also stated that Cabela's and other vendors that are significant in size don't have a problem with it. And if Midway is caving in to anti gun organizations such as the Los Angeles City Council when such appeasement is not necessary to be in compliance with the law, then Midway will be losing business and making themselves unpopular with folks who have an interest in keeping our 2A rights intact.

For whatever good that will do. I'm sure it will fall on deaf ears.
I would like to hear a lawyer's opinion of whether or not Chapter V, Article 5, 55.11c applies to vendors that are not within the city limits of LA. And when AB962 gets struck down, how that will affect a municipality's ability to enforce their ordinances, if indeed they were enforceable against internet sales to begin with.

curtisfong
08-04-2010, 1:09 PM
I would like to hear a lawyer's opinion of whether or not Chapter V, Article 5, 55.11c applies to vendors that are not within the city limits of LA. And when AB962 gets struck down, how that will affect a municipality's ability to enforce their ordinances, if indeed they were enforceable against internet sales to begin with.

This.

bodger
08-04-2010, 3:33 PM
This.

Gene talks about it a bit here in post #9:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=328423