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Matt C
04-26-2006, 1:02 AM
Just a bit of fabrication. This is a repost of something that happened to me about a week ago. It was on a MP forum before so excuse me if the content is a bit filled with attitude.

The local PD visited me the other day. This occurred about 2 days after I turned in notice to the local PD chief I was applying with the feds for an 03FFL(C&R! ARe they worried about drug dealers with large numbers of unregistered mosin-nagants?) I opened my inside door and not the steel security door when the cop pounded on it, so the cop who is half hiding behind the door (While I am doing pretty much the same thing on my side) yells at me to open it. Well that’s not going to happen so I ask him why. His attitude was very “I’m a cop and you have to do what I say or else”. He says he is responding to a 911 call. Well, I know damn well I did not call 911 so I tell him no, I didn’t call 911 and he has his wires crossed. He says he needs to come in anyway and search. I refuse. So of the cop informs me that if I do not open the door "I will have to get the SWAT team and roll". So I'm pretty mad now, and I reply, calm as can be, "You do what you have to do." I actually expected him to do it, although I would have been on the phone to the watch commander before any nonsense could occur, but instead he changes his tune entirely, and says "I just want to make sure everyone is OK, I don't need to look in any drawers or anything" Interesting. So I say, ok, I will allow a search, but if at any time I feel you should stop.... yada yada. He agrees and I tell him I am armed, place my gun on the table and let him in. Then he says, "I am not here for your guns." Interesting. So he is checks out my Beretta and removes the magazine which he keeps, then places the gun back on the table. This is pretty funny since there is a round in the chamber still, and a full magazine in my pocket. SO he looks in my bedroom and sees my loaded(sidesaddle w/ 3in slugs) Rem 870 next to my bed, he leaves that room real quick. It gets even funnier when he when he enters the second room which is my storage/office area. Inside are all my tactical gear, tac armor, cuffs, ammo, and m14 ect. ect. He also seems to take some interest in all the military and police related pictures on the walls, my SRT stuff, my raid team doing entries ect. and even my plaque from the Secret Service for completing 6 missions w/ them. He asks, are you in Law Enforcement? I had to laugh. I showed him my creds and he replies “Oh.” So after two rooms, not even looking into any closets he seems convinced I am not hiding Jimmy Hoffa under my bed, and asks if I am "growing anything here". I reply "Get out." He starts jawing about how the Supreme Court says he can enter without a warrant and search. I ignore him as he continues w/ his nonsense and start walking out toward the rooms we just left, the one with all my gear. He says "Ok, that’s all then, drops my magazine on my couch, goes to the front door and actually RUNS to his patrol can and leaves. I was expecting the "swat team" to "roll" all night, but I guess they lacked the balls. Probably a good thing.

ridingonfumes
04-26-2006, 1:22 AM
its a shame that they can lie to people like that
:mad:

but thats what they do chances are they had some kid with dope and told him to give some dealers up and he cold go home so he just gave them a few fake addresses and just by chance one of them was yours.

but thats what they do all the time they lie and try and scare you into opening the door and letting them in but if they really had good probable cause or enough evidence to get a search warrant THEY WOULD HAVE JUST BUSTED THE DOOR DOWN AND CAME IN



a security camera with audio set up to record is a good thing to have
you can get them now at harbor freight for $29.00 (or ebay) they are in black & white but for $29 you cant beat it

EBWhite
04-26-2006, 1:24 AM
was this LAPD??

Matt C
04-26-2006, 1:31 AM
a security camera with audio set up to record is a good thing to have
you can get them now at harbor freight for $29.00 (or ebay) they are in black & white but for $29 you cant beat it
I am hesitant to do that based on videos I have seen of shooting which often tend to paint the shooter in a bad light. But I am considering it.

was this LAPD??
No way, Monterey Park PD. I would like to think LAPD officers have a bit more sense, or at least better training.

The real question I have is was it a mistake, or something worse? BTW, I called dispatch later on and they did claim a confirmed 911 call, and that stuff is taped so I doubt the dispatcher would lie. Its a real mystery, but an alarming one. I mean, he only checked 2 out of three bedrooms, and ignored the closets bathrooms kitchen ect. Why would he do that if it was a real 911 call?

socalguns
04-26-2006, 2:12 AM
Sounds like you have paperwork to file :(

CALI-gula
04-26-2006, 2:35 AM
I doubt it was related to your C&R letter notification/submission unless the receiver was a small-town *****. The letter is rather common so most don't get riled up about it; but I would wonder about any other potentially concocted purpose they may have dreamed up just for a "look".

I had my C&R for a long time but let it lapse a few years; I re-submitted for it and sent my C&R notification letter to Chief "Willy" Parks/LAPD a few years ago, in his first year as Chief.

Have never heard "boo" from anyone since.

Henry47
04-26-2006, 3:21 AM
.....what's done is done, but at least if there WAS someone inside taking your family hostage (god forbid), you would've been glad he was so persistant

Omega13device
04-26-2006, 7:53 AM
Could it have been a misdial and you didn't realize it? I have done this before...without thinking I dialed 9 as if I was still at work, then hit 1 to make a long-distance call and accidentally double-tapped it. Even if you hang up right away the call will get completed to the 911 system.

bwiese
04-26-2006, 8:20 AM
You made a mistake letting him into your house.

NEVER let a cop inside your house without warrant. NEVER believe what a cop says to gain entry, and NEVER believe any stated limitations. The 911 thing could well be a pretext. The statement about not looking for anything is BS. 911 wires don't get crossed that badly that often (statistical rarity).

The SWAT threat stuff is BS.

And if they kick down your door, guess who has to pay?

Yes, recording and documenting anything and everything when you have any cops around is always useful. I believe if you'd've informed the cop from the outset that he is being recorded, situation would change. In such a situation inform the cop you are aware of and insist upon your 4th amendment rights, that there is no cause for emergency, that he is being recorded (and carry that threat out).

antarius
04-26-2006, 8:27 AM
You made a mistake letting him into your house.

NEVER let a cop inside your house without warrant. NEVER believe what a cop says to gain entry, and NEVER believe any stated limitations. The 911 thing could well be a pretext. The statement about not looking for anything is BS. 911 wires don't get crossed that badly that often (statistical rarity).

The SWAT threat stuff is BS.

And if they kick down your door, guess who has to pay?

Yes, recording and documenting anything and everything when you have any cops around is always useful. I believe if you'd've informed the cop from the outset that he is being recorded, situation would change. In such a situation inform the cop you are aware of and insist upon your 4th amendment rights, that there is no cause for emergency, that he is being recorded (and carry that threat out).
I'm going to have to disagree with you on the "911 wires don't get crossed that badly that often" comment.

I go to "911 hangup" calls all the time, and most of the time the residents in the household never even touched the phone. More often than not it's a DSL model or fax line causing the problem.

Not saying the way the police officer went about his business was ethical or even right, and I'm not going to debate the rest of what you said; But false 911 calls are quite common, contrary to popular belief.

yiha
04-26-2006, 8:43 AM
i'd be careful letting the cop in on special terms.. I seem to recall hearing something about once you let him in he can pretty much do as he wants and search your entire house.. or maybe it was car.

:confused:

antarius
04-26-2006, 8:53 AM
i'd be careful letting the cop in on special terms.. I seem to recall hearing something about once you let him in he can pretty much do as he wants and search your entire house.. or maybe it was car.

:confused:
That's not true either. If you give him consent to search your house, you can determine the specifications of that consent, and you can retract your consent at anytime.

If he has a reason to search your house, or legal means to enter without consent, then he can ignore your refusal or retraction of consent.

yiha
04-26-2006, 8:56 AM
ops, im sorry i was confusing different laws... this law is from another country.

Rumpled
04-26-2006, 9:27 AM
Bill's advice is wise, once that camel's nose is under the tent, you never know what's gonna happen.
If they've got a warrant, they won't hesitate. If they hesitate, they don't.

Were you just testing him?

Just reread, what was the fabriaction? The whole story to inflame us? Or just the headline to get us to read?

glen avon
04-26-2006, 9:39 AM
...And if they kick down your door, guess who has to pay?...

I don't need to guess, I know. and it ain't the po-lice.

bwiese
04-26-2006, 9:43 AM
Yet another reason to keep a distance from the cops, and to record your each & every interaction:

http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/local_news/text/0,1406,KNS_347_28813,00.html

To note, the ACLU 'bust card' says:


1. If the police knock and ask to enter your home, you don’t have to admit them unless they have a warrant signed by a judge.
2. However, in some emergency situations (like when a person is screaming for help inside, or when the police are chasing someone) officers are allowed to enter and search your home without a warrant.
3. If you are arrested, the police can search you and the area close by. If you are in a building, “close by” usually means just the room you are in.
We all recognize the need for effective law enforcement, but we should also understand our own rights and responsibilities – especially in our relationships with the police. Everyone, including minors, has the right to courteous and
respectful police treatment. If your rights are violated, don’t try to deal with the situation at the scene. You can talk to a lawyer afterwards, or file a complaint with the Internal Affairs or Civilian Complaint Board.

glen avon
04-26-2006, 9:45 AM
I hate the idea of searches as much as the next guy, but if there indeed was a 911 mishap, and you refused, they have every right to force their way in.

otherwise, in a home invasion scenario, the thief need only answer the door and refuse enrty. nobody expects that result.

the proper reaction will depend on many many things, but in an ideal world, one would get on the cell phone and call the PD in front of the officer to verify what is going on. officer can't complain much about that, and you will get a different person explaining what is going on.

think about it - if you aren't a notorious a-hole in your neighborhood, and you can't think of any reason for somebody to make a false accusation - then why indeed would a cop show up? The C&R would have been the first thing I thought of too, but now that we know that prolly wasn't it, it does indeed sound like a 911 mixup. which as bill says are prolly pretty rare, but so is winning the lotto and lots of those tickets are sold.

I think what you did was well within the range of appropriate responses, and I might have done the same myself.

antarius
04-26-2006, 9:50 AM
Yet another reason to keep a distance from the cops, and to record your each & every interaction:

http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/local_news/text/0,1406,KNS_347_28813,00.html

To note, the ACLU 'bust card' says:


1. If the police knock and ask to enter your home, you don’t have to admit them unless they have a warrant signed by a judge.
2. However, in some emergency situations (like when a person is screaming for help inside, or when the police are chasing someone) officers are allowed to enter and search your home without a warrant.
3. If you are arrested, the police can search you and the area close by. If you are in a building, “close by” usually means just the room you are in.
We all recognize the need for effective law enforcement, but we should also understand our own rights and responsibilities – especially in our relationships with the police. Everyone, including minors, has the right to courteous and
respectful police treatment. If your rights are violated, don’t try to deal with the situation at the scene. You can talk to a lawyer afterwards, or file a complaint with the Internal Affairs or Civilian Complaint Board.

Just note, "screaming for help" is an exaggeration of the need to articulate an exigent circumstance allowing entry without a warrant.

A credible report of domestic violence occurring for one; Or frankly, if you can articulate in anyway that you believe someone's personal safety may be in danger, you can enter.

They don't have to be screaming for help.

A neighbor calls in saying she hears her next door neighbors having an argument and a woman screaming and items being thrown in the house. We show up, it's dead quiet. The husband opens the door, says no you can't enter. I could argue, and would be right in doing so, that there was an exigent circumstance to verify the safety of a possible victim, and thus could enter the house without a warrant.

That ACLU card is good to know; And it's important that everyone know their rights to the fullest extent... in fact, in my opinion, it should be everyone's duty as an American citizen to know your rights and case law pertaining to them.

That said, be sure to understand what case law has determined the minimum amount of evidence or probable cause needed to circumvent specific laws or constitutional rights, rather than the maximum.

The ACLU card gives you the super high-end absolute exigent circumstance, and while it's true, you don't need that much to enter under the exigent circumstance clause... keep that in mind.

It's right on as far as a "search incident to arrest." When arrested you and your immediate area can be searched for any and all contraband, in a house this means the room and anywhere you walked through or nearby where you walked through while in the presence of the police officer. Once contraband is found, the scope of the search can be expanded to look for any and all contraband, in any area in the household. If the officers leave the residence, a warrant will have to be issued to search for said specific contraband and in specific locations, before being allowed to reenter.

Note, a "search incident to arrest" allows for the entire vehicle to be searched, including the trunk. To search the trunk of a vehicle with probable cause only, it's a little more difficult. However, incident to arrest gives you access immediately.

And as I said in my previous post, 911-hangup calls are not rare at all. I don't think a shift goes by without having more than one...

Hope this helps...

VeryCoolCat
04-26-2006, 10:02 AM
Well it is up to you at the end.... you can talk to the officer and calm his *** down and let him go.

I mean it is his job, he can't really just say, "Well since you don't want to let me in we'll just ignore the call of the lady on the phone who made muffled sounds". Just let them check the place and he(they) will leave.

Otherwise they can get a search warrant, bring in 3 extra cops and the annoyed cops can search however they wanted as they now think your hiding something for refusing to let them in.

As long as you call the PD to verify that the person is actually an officer. I would let them in. I have nothing to hide, well I hope not. Nor should anyone else, unless your hiding lowers that havn't been "cal-neutered" yet. Then you might as well let him in anyways and hide the lowers so he doesn't have to do a full search.

odysseus
04-26-2006, 10:12 AM
I have had this happen to me. However I kind of knew what might have happened. I had a day before moved into a house and in the next morning plugged in a standard phone into a jack for a call I was planning on making. I didn't make a call yet, but 5 minutes later a police car with two officers was in front and banging on my door.

I answered it calmly asking them about why they are there. They said we called 911. I said no I didn't, however I just plugged a phone into the jack. The officers did not ask to go in, just asked if everyone was fine, I calmly said yes. They said ok, I closed the door and they hung out in front for a minute I guess to see listen if something might happen - and then they left.

So I too find these interesting. However I think you are in every right to say no if they want to come in. If they just insisted, I think I would have told them to wait while I call their PD office and verify who they are and that a call came from my resident - and tell the office to tell them I am fine and to go find something else to look into.:D They can tell if it is just a "hang up". If it is, often these are technical issues or a child's play.

In your example, this officer was just not acting very professional. Sounds like an example of "all speed, no control". :rolleyes:

MrTuffPaws
04-26-2006, 11:28 AM
So I say, ok, I will allow a search, but if at any time I feel you should stop.... yada yada. He agrees and I tell him I am armed, place my gun on the table and let him in.

You gave up any rights you had right there. You should have told him to get a warrent and closed the door in his face.

SC_00_05
04-26-2006, 11:35 AM
Well it is up to you at the end.... you can talk to the officer and calm his *** down and let him go.

I mean it is his job, he can't really just say, "Well since you don't want to let me in we'll just ignore the call of the lady on the phone who made muffled sounds". Just let them check the place and he(they) will leave.

Otherwise they can get a search warrant, bring in 3 extra cops and the annoyed cops can search however they wanted as they now think your hiding something for refusing to let them in.

As long as you call the PD to verify that the person is actually an officer. I would let them in. I have nothing to hide, well I hope not. Nor should anyone else, unless your hiding lowers that havn't been "cal-neutered" yet. Then you might as well let him in anyways and hide the lowers so he doesn't have to do a full search.
No offense, but those are some terrible words to live by. If you want to forgo your civil rights as an American and invite the man into your life every time they please, that's fine, but telling other people that they should too is ridiculous.

edwardm
04-26-2006, 11:36 AM
You made a mistake letting him into your house.

NEVER let a cop inside your house without warrant. NEVER believe what a cop says to gain entry, and NEVER believe any stated limitations. The 911 thing could well be a pretext. The statement about not looking for anything is BS. 911 wires don't get crossed that badly that often (statistical rarity).

The SWAT threat stuff is BS.

And if they kick down your door, guess who has to pay?

Yes, recording and documenting anything and everything when you have any cops around is always useful. I believe if you'd've informed the cop from the outset that he is being recorded, situation would change. In such a situation inform the cop you are aware of and insist upon your 4th amendment rights, that there is no cause for emergency, that he is being recorded (and carry that threat out).


The only ways they get in without a warrant are:

Exigency - i.e. they see or hear reports of a woman screaming out a window that someone is raping/killing her, etc. Something that requires an emergency action to protect life.

and

Hot pursuit of a fleeing felon. If you rob a bank, drive home with the cops in tow, and bail into your house, they can follow you right in, sans warrant. Those are the limited exceptions for warrantless searches of a home.

My advice is when they ask for consent, say no and politely but firmly close the door. If they have probably cause, they'll have a signed warrant there in 20 minutes. If not, they can go back on patrol. I think most cops want to just protect people and do their job. But there are bad apples anywhere.

elsolo
04-26-2006, 11:46 AM
I was sitting at home alone watching TV, no phone calls were made or recived in the previous hour and I didn't even have a computer at the time that could have dialed out.

Knock-knock

Two cops at the door, I answer and they ask if I called 911. I was surprised by that question, old them no as I leaned against the doorframe. Immediately cop #1 unholsters and points it low ready(pointing at my belly), while cop #2 looks surprised by that and put his hand on his pistol and unsnapped ithe holster. (leaning against the doorframe must have spooked cop #1 for some reason)
The cop that's covering me with his muzzle tells me they are going to "search my apartment for hostages", and I am not about to start arguing with a twitchy street cop pointing a gun at me.
Twitchy cop searches my apt for a minute while the other cop stood in front of me as I sit in my easy chair, as I was directed to do. They of course found no hostages or anything and told me to "Have a nice day" as they left.



You gave up any rights you had right there. You should have told him to get a warrent and closed the door in his face.

I wonder if MrTuffPaws would act so tough with guns pointed at him?
I am pretty sure if I tried to close the door it would have been forced open and Twitchy the cop may have shot me.

Arguing with a street cop will get you nowhere, just do what they say; if they are wrong your lawyer will have a field day.

EBWhite
04-26-2006, 11:54 AM
I was sitting at home alone watching TV, no phone calls were made or recived in the previous hour and I didn't even have a computer at the time that could have dialed out.

Knock-knock

Two cops at the door, I answer and they ask if I called 911. I was surprised by that question, old them no as I leaned against the doorframe. Immediately cop #1 unholsters and points it low ready(pointing at my belly), while cop #2 looks surprised by that and put his hand on his pistol and unsnapped ithe holster. (leaning against the doorframe must have spooked cop #1 for some reason)
The cop that's covering me with his muzzle tells me they are going to "search my apartment for hostages", and I am not about to start arguing with a twitchy street cop pointing a gun at me.
Twitchy cop searches my apt for a minute while the other cop stood in front of me as I sit in my easy chair, as I was directed to do. They of course found no hostages or anything and told me to "Have a nice day" as they left.





I wonder if MrTuffPaws would act so tough with guns pointed at him?
I am pretty sure if I tried to close the door it would have been forced open and Twitchy the cop may have shot me.

Arguing with a street cop will get you nowhere, just do what they say; if they are wrong your lawyer will have a field day.


Nope, that cop should not have pulled his weapon on you and you should have slammed the door in his face and put your holster on.

glen avon
04-26-2006, 11:56 AM
The only ways they get in without a warrant are:

... Those are the limited exceptions for warrantless searches of a home....

not true. parolees?

911 calls?

there are others.

this is anything but clear. the po-lice are unique in that discretion decreases with rank. and that is necessarily so. joe street cop on your porch has a lot of discretion, and the law supports that. the solution is all post-incident. the cop generally gets to do what he thinks he needs to do and it later that is found wrong then sometimes remedies are available.

if he does thhat too often, he will be out of a job.

it's the price we pay for having cops bust in to save victims. what's the alternative? I dunno.

odysseus
04-26-2006, 12:00 PM
Two cops at the door, I answer and they ask if I called 911. I was surprised by that question, old them no as I leaned against the doorframe. Immediately cop #1 unholsters and points it low ready(pointing at my belly), while cop #2 looks surprised by that and put his hand on his pistol and unsnapped ithe holster. (leaning against the doorframe must have spooked cop #1 for some reason)
.

PLEASE tell me you lodged an official complaint against this officer and told the Chief you are looking into legal recourse for being assaulted (pointing a gun at you is an assault) since there was no reason from your words here for this action. If the officer drew on you, he should have then cuffed you too to contain you. From what you say here, he didn't. Me thinks you didn't spook him you just pissed him off and he let you know by assaulting you, who was "in charge".

If anything at least your voice would have been heard, recorded, and be somewhat painful for them.

I did this once to an officer who had a reputation of harassing people in a small town I lived in my younger days. He then just left me alone. He continued harassing others until one day when he threw a flashlight at an African American teenager while calling him the N-word, he was removed. That's another story. There is a bad apple in most baskets.

50 Freak
04-26-2006, 12:10 PM
I'm going to have to disagree with you on the "911 wires don't get crossed that badly that often" comment.


Agreed. On one particularly rainy night, I get a call from a 911 operator at 4am. The operator said someone from my home was calling 911 and hung up. I said other my wife sleeping next to me and my dog sleeping on the floor no one lived in this house. She said she was sending out a car to check. I said fine but I'm not getting out of bed to answer any doors....Funny that no cars came by...at least that I know of, course I was happily in dreamland till the morning.

Nope, that cop should not have pulled his weapon on you and you should have slammed the door in his face and put your holster on.

And you should have been on the phone to his Watch commander giving him an earful. Then followed up by lodging a complaint with the Civilian Review board and CCing the Mayor. That sh*t should not be tolerated.

bodyarmorguy27
04-26-2006, 12:15 PM
PLEASE tell me you lodged an official complaint against this officer and told the Chief you are looking into legal recourse for being assaulted (pointing a gun at you is an assault) since there was no reason from your words here for this action. If the officer drew on you, he should have then cuffed you too to contain you. From what you say here, he didn't. Me thinks you didn't spook him you just pissed him off and he let you know by assaulting you, who was "in charge".



This place has officially gone bananas...

bwiese
04-26-2006, 12:18 PM
I too have had a 911 issue, but it did not rise to this level.

My old Sony deskphone had "911" prestored in one of its 3 memories by default. Somehow my cat knocks the phone off my desk and the button gets hit.

A minute later I put the phone back on the desk and reseat the receiver. A call comes back from 911 operator asking if I'm OK. I reply in the affirmative, apologize, and said the cat must've done it. No further questions.

Nevertheless, if cops had showed up at my door I would not have let them in. I would have explained the situation to them and continued to assert my 4th Amend rights.

If they want in, they can kick down the door.

Now that I think of it, I may want to put some mics + remote recording device in my home "just in case".

BTW, It is easy to fake a 911 call, and cops may know how to do this. Many homes' and apt complex phone boxes are readily accessible from the outside. A cheap handset and alligator clips - or, for that matter, a resistor and alligator clips and a decent sense of rhythm to mimic a pulse-dialled phone - and there's you're 911 call - instant pretext 911 raid.

elsolo
04-26-2006, 12:19 PM
Nope, that cop should not have pulled his weapon on you and you should have slammed the door in his face and put your holster on.

"should not have" that's great, too bad he allready did.

Not everything in this world is worth getting in a shootout with cops.



No, I did not file a formal complaint. What was done was done, no going back and undoing that cop's actions. Besides, I figure it would be a
"I said / he said" argument and all the cop needed to do was say he thought I was: reaching for something, acting suspicious, whatever justification he needs to step it up and take immediate control of the situation with (perceived appropriate) force.

I wasn't looking to hire an ambulance chaser and sue the dept for traumatizing or assaulting me.

blacklisted
04-26-2006, 12:20 PM
That's very strange. Something similar happened to my friend. He was talking on the phone, when suddenly he heard a beep or something and then a voice cut in and said "this is 911, there is an emergency call" or something like that. He said nobody called 911, and a cop showed up a while later wanting to search his house (and they did search).

My friend also had guns aimed at him and other by the cops, because some stupid neighbor called the police. When he was in high school, they went to his friend's house (with his friend) at lunch to get some soda, and his friend didn't have the key. So...they went in through the window. When they came out of the house a while later, there were several cops aiming guns at them from across their cars (one shotgun). They made them get on the ground and handcuffed all of them (while the guy was saying that it was his house). Finally they confirmed his identity and left.

odysseus
04-26-2006, 12:22 PM
This place has officially gone bananas...

Please elaborate on "bananas".

bwiese
04-26-2006, 12:24 PM
No, I did not file a formal complaint. What was done was done, no
going back and undoing that cop's actions.

Sure you can't UNDO the actions, but you can have him (or his dept) penalized. When budgets get screwed with, actions change.


Besides, I figure it would be a "I said / he said" argument and all the cop needed to do was say he thought I was: reaching for something, acting suspicious, whatever justification he needs to step it up and take immediate control of the situation with (perceived appropriate) force.

You can't cower to these idiots. I am fortunate I don't have a family, so I am willing to be an a*shole and take risks.

I wasn't looking to hire an ambulance chaser and sue the dept
for traumatizing or assaulting me.

You don't have to take the money. After all is said and done you could have it donated to the NRA, or just tell the attorney to keep the money and help the next guy.

bodyarmorguy27
04-26-2006, 12:48 PM
Please elaborate on "bananas".

If what you are saying is true, I would be have been booked multiple times for assault with a deadly weapon for doing my job.

Now next to all the zombies, illegal aliens, home invasion robbery suspects, and burglars that are coming to get you... there are the boogiemen police who are going to stage a fake 911 SWAT raid at 4am on a random house (that could be you) and discover your evil cache of illegal detachable mag offlist lowers and illegal SBRs, and haul you away.

Some of us need to read this:

http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/

glen avon
04-26-2006, 12:50 PM
it's not cowering. nobody is perfect, even cops.

odysseus
04-26-2006, 12:59 PM
If what you are saying is true, I would be have been booked multiple times for assault with a deadly weapon for doing my job.

Now next to all the zombies, illegal aliens, home invasion robbery suspects, and burglars that are coming to get you... there are the boogiemen police who are going to stage a fake 911 SWAT raid at 4am on a random house (that could be you) and discover your evil cache of illegal detachable mag offlist lowers and illegal SBRs, and haul you away.

Slooooow down bodyarmorguy27. You might need the tin hat. No one knows the "truth", it is one side of an incident a person said in this thread who was at home and got a wrong 911 response to his house, and then got a gun drawn on him for unknown reasons. OBVIOUSLY most times an LE draws it's for good reason, in case you needed to hear that.

Do you hear of people getting guns drawn on them at their home, but the rest of the procedure is not followed (cuffing, containment)? I am not saying who is at fault - I am saying he could claim he was assaulted and should have lodged a complaint. Perhaps in your world, he should never have complained when he felt something wrong happened to him.

You go ahead and keep paying your taxes, nothing for you here - move along. :rolleyes:

antarius
04-26-2006, 1:02 PM
If what you are saying is true, I would be have been booked multiple times for assault with a deadly weapon for doing my job.

Now next to all the zombies, illegal aliens, home invasion robbery suspects, and burglars that are coming to get you... there are the boogiemen police who are going to stage a fake 911 SWAT raid at 4am on a random house (that could be you) and discover your evil cache of illegal detachable mag offlist lowers and illegal SBRs, and haul you away.

Some of us need to read this:

http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/

No kidding huh? I'll go to the box and make the fake call! You stand at the door and knock on my go, ok?!?!

Haha...

bwiese
04-26-2006, 1:14 PM
If what you are saying is true, I would be have been booked multiple times for assault with a deadly weapon for doing my job.


You may well be one of the sensible/balanced ones... but over the years there've been enough raids gone awry that it's reasonable for us to have a general lack of trust or at least strong doubts, and to take rational measures to protect ourselves. Many cops have shown themselves ready to take shortcuts to save their job when something goes sideways - and that shortcut could be to incriminate you somehow or make you look bad.

Once a cop is in your house, lots of protections you have go away. Never answer questions or engage them in anything but the briefest discussion.


there are the boogiemen police who are going to stage a fake 911 SWAT raid at 4am on a random house (that could be you) and discover your evil cache of illegal detachable mag offlist lowers and illegal SBRs, and haul you away.

I know you said that in jest, but the noted gun lawyer I spoke to said that way over 80% of CA AW busts were in homes, as a result of "domestic" issues - not even domestic violence or criminality. (Relatively small fraction was due to transport, surprisingly.) Somehow, some way cops get into premises due to emergency, pretext, etc and unreg'd/illegal AWs were found. Many of these folks, he told me, had completely clean records before (that is, not a 'bad guy' with AWs.)

So those AW-at-home concerns are indeed rational - especially if you live in a bldg where addresses are hard to find. (Numerous raids have been executed on wrong addresses.)

Hell, I'm even concerned that when a legal gun is somehow seized that it becomes illegally configured in the evidence locker - perhaps even by accident. (That is, 'safe storage' concerns in evidence room could force mag removal, with perhaps no record of that occurring. DA examines gun later and finds open magwell + pistol grip -and there's your compound 12280 violations.)

BTW, some LEO visitations might not even be due to YOUR actions, but one of your co-residents. And it could be for medical related reasons. (There's no reason, for example, to let a cop in your home when the ambulance guys can do just fine.) As an example, an acquantaince lost his AR10 (which he thought was reg'd since he'd DROSed it in CA, and he was out of state for much of 1999): somehow emergency personnel arrived due to his unstable elderly dad. Dunno much what transpired beyond this other than he lost his AR10, but was able to keep the scope. (The cops were at least not as severe as they could've been: instead of busting, they arranged a surrender - but never rely on the prospective charity of cops, either.)

phish
04-26-2006, 1:27 PM
No way, Monterey Park PD. I would like to think LAPD officers have a bit more sense, or at least better training.


dude, my in-laws live there! Close to Schur High School?

bodyarmorguy27
04-26-2006, 1:45 PM
Bill,

What I wrote was, in fact, in jest to some of the previous posts.

Yes there are many instances where firearms are discovered/recovered/seized by law enforcement when in your home. I use "your" to describe everyone.

Domestic violence is the main one. The next that I can think of is a 5150 WIC (danger to self, danger to others, gravely disabled unable to care for...). You don't even have to be the person calling, like you said. A neighbor, a family member, friend or scorned ex-girlfriend or wife, husband, whatever.

I don't disagree with you with raids on the wrong address, and rightfully so, those departments and cities have paid for it.

Something to think about to, is that it goes beyond 911 calls and domestic violence. There are burlgar alarms, panic alarms, some kids entering a window of their home and having the neighbors call. Maybe you have a son that lives at home on juvenile formal probation or some bad sheep who is on parole.

Anytime you search a house, you check anywhere a person could reasonably secret themselves. In the attic, closets, cabinets, under beds, etc. Would it be reasonable for a person to hide himself within a locked gun safe, probably not. We can perform a limited search for people when within someone's home while investigating a call involving violence. We would exceed the scope of our search by going into file cabinets, desk drawers, etc.

The faster that I can ask questions and be satisfied, the faster I will leave. It is when a person seems deceptive or is hiding something, I get suspicious. If I come to your house on a 911 call and the whole family is there to greet me and you invite me in, I would be satisfied and leave. But when you poke your head through a crack in the door, and tell me that you don't want me to come in, I then think something is up.

Think about how you would want the police to respond if one of your family members called 911 in an emergency. Do you want them to turn around and leave when some a-hole slams the door in their face? That is how I put it into perspective. Just become someone answers the door, doesn't mean that they are the homeowner or have a right to be there.

[QUOTE=bwiese]
Hell, I'm even concerned that when a legal gun is somehow seized that it becomes illegally configured in the evidence locker - perhaps even by accident. (That is, 'safe storage' concerns in evidence room could force mag removal, with perhaps no record of that occurring. DA examines gun later and finds open magwell + pistol grip -and there's your compound 12280 violations.)
[\QUOTE]

Now that Bill, is plausible.

Henry47
04-26-2006, 1:47 PM
That's very strange. Something similar happened to my friend. He was talking on the phone, when suddenly he heard a beep or something and then a voice cut in and said "this is 911, there is an emergency call" or something like that. He said nobody called 911, and a cop showed up a while later wanting to search his house (and they did search).

My friend also had guns aimed at him and other by the cops, because some stupid neighbor called the police. When he was in high school, they went to his friend's house (with his friend) at lunch to get some soda, and his friend didn't have the key. So...they went in through the window. When they came out of the house a while later, there were several cops aiming guns at them from across their cars (one shotgun). They made them get on the ground and handcuffed all of them (while the guy was saying that it was his house). Finally they confirmed his identity and left.

sounds like they were doing their job.

blacklisted
04-26-2006, 1:48 PM
If what you are saying is true, I would be have been booked multiple times for assault with a deadly weapon for doing my job.

Now next to all the zombies, illegal aliens, home invasion robbery suspects, and burglars that are coming to get you... there are the boogiemen police who are going to stage a fake 911 SWAT raid at 4am on a random house (that could be you) and discover your evil cache of illegal detachable mag offlist lowers and illegal SBRs, and haul you away.

Some of us need to read this:

http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/

My concern is having several twitchy cops aiming guns at me when I'm completely unarmed and present no threat. I see it all the time. I don't understand why officers cant use their best judgement and keep their weapons in a ready position, but not pointed at an unarmed person's head. Despite the "training", cops are people and can still mess up and pull the trigger. Or they could be jump like the one that shot the man that had just returned from Iraq.

383green
04-26-2006, 1:48 PM
When I watch shows like "Cops", it never ceases to amaze me how nearly every bad guy they collar gives consent to search of their person or vehicle, even knowing full well that they have illegal stuff stashed away. Maybe that's because most of the confrontations where the suspect is smart enough to politely decline permission to search end with the officers saying "Ok, have a nice day" and then end up on the cutting room floor?

I also roll my eyes at the folks who claim "It's not my pot, I'm just holding it for that guy". Uh, hello, the law is against possession, not ownership. :rolleyes:

All of the very few times I've been on the receiving end of police enforcement activities were simple traffic violations, I was polite and didn't give off any bad vibes, and it ended with "here's your ticket, now please drive carefully". I figure that if and when I'm ever faced with a police officer who feels the need to take things further, my best bet is to politely decline to offer permission to enter and/or search, and if they have a warrant or feel that they have probable cause they'll just do what they need to do anyway. Just because I have nothing to hide doesn't mean I should stop exercising my rights. Furthermore, a lot of folks in or out of uniform will overreact to the kinds of perfectly legal stuff that folks on this board are interested in... Even though I'm not doing anything illegal or even wrong, it could be very inconvenient for me at best if I invited an officer into my home or vehicle for no good reason, and they got overly concerned with my toys! :eek:

glen avon
04-26-2006, 1:53 PM
[QUOTE=bodyarmorguy27]...Think about how you would want the police to respond if one of your family members called 911 in an emergency. Do you want them to turn around and leave when some a-hole slams the door in their face? That is how I put it into perspective. Just become someone answers the door, doesn't mean that they are the homeowner or have a right to be there. ...[\QUOTE]

my point exactly.

having a cop interrogate you at your house for no good reason sucks, but nowhere nearly as badly as having a cop make a half-hearted attempt at resolving a real problem.

that's why we tolerate cop mistakes. they are only human.

50 Freak
04-26-2006, 1:57 PM
BTW, some LEO visitations might not even be due to YOUR actions, but one of your co-residents.

Ain't that the truth, I had five squad cars show up to my front door one day. I opened it as asked "how can I help you". The LE like a ***** answered "you know why we're here".

Told him I didn't. LE wanted to come in to check the house due to the neighbors calling about someone in my shared back yard running around shooting a silenced machine gun. "OH....you must mean my neighbor (I lived in a duplex) with his airsoft" I said. Things changed after that but I often wondered what he would have found if I consented to his coming in.

I imagine I'd be on some headline news labeled "huge arsenel found, news at 10".

As a side note, my neighbor had properly set up shooting backstops and pellet traps. Apparently shooting an battery powered airsoft is okay as it doesn't use air as a propellent but instead uses a spring. Now if he was shooting an airgun, then that was illegal to shoot in city limits and it would have be taken away.

bodyarmorguy27
04-26-2006, 2:04 PM
Despite the "training", cops are people and can still mess up and pull the trigger. Or they could be jump like the one that shot the man that had just returned from Iraq.

True.

Well, how do I know that you are completely unarmed and present no threat?
Until I safely take you into custody and pat you down, you are a threat.

How do you know they were pointing at your head? Were they at extremely close range? There isn't that much room between your head and torso, when aiming at several yards. If you were looking at a hollowpoint, down a rifled barrel, that is a different story.

Usually police officers will aim center mass (the torso, the ten ring), as it affords them a larger target. Because everyone knows what horrible shots we are. That is why they don't let us shoot people in the arms or legs, because we're probably going to miss.

If someone calls that they some kids entering a house, the calls comes out as possible burglary suspects there now.

When I arrive and see people matching the description, I now have possible burglary suspects. Burglary is section 459 of the Cal Penal Code, a felony.

Felony suspects, especially burglary suspects are often armed with some type of tools or weapons, ie screwdrivers or other sharp instruments, that can be readily concealed on their persons. People store guns in their homes, oftentimes handguns. And they often store them where they are readily available, like in a closet or between a mattress. Burglary suspects will often ransack the master bedrooms and recover these handguns, which are usually stored unlocked and loaded.

Handguns can be readily and easily concealed in the waistband area. In my experience, criminals will carry concealed weapons in the waistband or in their pants pockets, unholstered. This is so that they can easily discard them upon contact with the police and not be found with an empty holster on their person.

That is how I would write some of my report or response to some whiny mom about why the police pointed guns at her kids. When I say kids, I'm referring to teens. Not ten or eleven year olds.

VeryCoolCat
04-26-2006, 2:07 PM
I've learned in my life don't bother with cops or security guards. Either their good, or just want to look tough and boss you around.

If you happen to get the wrong cop, on the wrong day, then your gonna have to put up with hell.

Right or wrong, its gonna be a pain in the ***. Frankly, its just not worth 3 hours of searching just to let a officer into your house to take a look and as long as your cool he might see you one day and let you off a ticket :D

Happened to a friend of mine.

50 Freak
04-26-2006, 2:31 PM
Well, how do I know that you are completely unarmed and present no threat?
Until I safely take you into custody and pat you down, you are a threat.

While I respect you for taking a tough job. I think this is a wrong attitude. It shows me, you think everyone is a threat until you "safely take them in to custody and pat them down". Ever heard "innocent until proven guilty".

Let's take this scenario and turn it around. How do I (the homeowner) know my life is not in danger. You the police are standing at the door with guns drawn and slightly pointed at me. Me, I just finished reading the Sunday paper before answering the door am now being asked to let two complete strangers in the door (strangers with drawn guns, might I add).

That's why I personally will not let any LE in without a warrant. And if you want to come crashing through my door be ready for a full mag of 308 coming at you cause I see you as an intruder dressed up as cops.

Right or wrong, its gonna be a pain in the ***. Frankly, its just not worth 3 hours of searching just to let a officer into your house to take a look and as long as your cool he might see you one day and let you off a ticket
Wrong thinking guy. What's next, Let the cop sleep with your wife so you can get out of a parking ticket? Obey the cop when possible, but know your rights and stand by them. If he wants to bug a judge to get a warrant, then let him articulate to the judge his reasoning. You'll find judges are not to eager to sign a warrant to bust into a law abiding citizen's house simply on the cop's "gut feeling".

Major Miner II
04-26-2006, 2:39 PM
While I respect you for doing a tough job. I think this is a wrong attitude. It shows me, you think everyone is a threat until you "safely take them in to custody and pat them down". Ever heard "innocent until proven guilty".
"Innocent until proven guilty" has nothing to do with it.

That's why I personally will not let any LE in without a warrant. And if you want to come crashing through my door be ready for a full mag of 308 coming at you cause I see you as an intruder dressed up as cops.
Oh FFS.

Some of you people are more paranoid than some of the schitzos I use to contact.

BTW. . .exactly what defense are you going to use for gunning down cops in the legal course of their duty?

blacklisted
04-26-2006, 2:47 PM
BTW. . .exactly what defense are you going to use for gunning down cops in the legal course of their duty?

Self Defense.

EBWhite
04-26-2006, 2:47 PM
"Innocent until proven guilty" has nothing to do with it.


Oh FFS.

Some of you people are more paranoid than some of the schitzos I use to contact.

BTW. . .exactly what defense are you going to use for gunning down cops in the legal course of their duty?

Again, you are allowed to use self defense against someone if they are a deadly threat to you. If the cop did not provide a valid reason for breaking into your home, and you did not give permission and there was no signed warrant- you will be off the hook. I don't care who is breaking into my home- drunk, robber, white guy, black guy, cop- they are all going to have to deal with flying rounds.

blacklisted
04-26-2006, 2:48 PM
sounds like they were doing their job.

They were, but the A-team guns pointed at a bunch of people holding soda cans and nothing else strategy was a little over the top.

glen avon
04-26-2006, 2:54 PM
Again, you are allowed to use self defense against someone if they are a deadly threat to you. If the cop did not provide a valid reason for breaking into your home, and you did not give permission and there was no signed warrant- you will be off the hook.

Not true. you may not resist a cop performing its official duty, even if the cop is making a mistake, no matter how wrong they are, or how wrong you think they are.

if the cop performs a rid on your house because the information is bad, you KNOW you are innocent and you shoot, you are going to jail. no ifs ands or buts about it.

you will go down.

there is a reason for that. otherwise BGs would shoot and say that they didn't know they were guilty, or on the off chance they are not convicted. 3rd striker has nothing else to lose by shooting a cop.

blacklisted
04-26-2006, 2:54 PM
Not true. you may not resist a cop performing its official duty, even if the cop is making a mistake, no matter how wrong they are, or how wrong you think they are.

if the cop performs a rid on your house because the information is bad, you KNOW you are innocent and you shoot, you are going to jail. no ifs ands or buts about it.

you will go down.

What if the cop is not in uniform, and did not say he was a cop? He just busts in and aims a gun at you. Also, you have the whole thing on tape.

paradox
04-26-2006, 2:55 PM
BTW. . .exactly what defense are you going to use for gunning down cops in the legal course of their duty?

"They didn't have a warrent and I haven't done anything wrong, so I figured it was a bunch of gang bangers who bought some SWAT tee-shirts and fake badges off e-bay."

Sadly, in Californa, people have been killed in their own homes by bad guys dressed up as cops.

bodyarmorguy27
04-26-2006, 2:57 PM
What if the cop is not in uniform, and did not say he was a cop? He just busts in and aims a gun at you.

If the department and city are smart, it wouldn't happen. To prevent incidents like you say. That is why "uniforms" are brought to the door during plain clothes warrants.

While I respect you for taking a tough job. I think this is a wrong attitude. It shows me, you think everyone is a threat until you "safely take them in to custody and pat them down". Ever heard "innocent until proven guilty".


I was referring to the poster talking about being detained at gunpoint as possible burglary suspects. There's a US Supreme Court case called Terry v. Ohio. I said that everyone is a threat, until proven otherwise. It had nothing to do with guilt.

One thing I was taught as a young rookie. Whenever respond to ANY call, there is always a gun.

You guys are smart, you can figure it out, I'm sure.

MrTuffPaws
04-26-2006, 2:58 PM
I wonder if MrTuffPaws would act so tough with guns pointed at him?
I am pretty sure if I tried to close the door it would have been forced open and Twitchy the cop may have shot me.

Arguing with a street cop will get you nowhere, just do what they say; if they are wrong your lawyer will have a field day.

You may be right, but if you stated come on in and look, then you just gave up your rights. That statement alone just screwed you out of coverage by you lawyer.

Major Miner II
04-26-2006, 3:09 PM
Again, you are allowed to use self defense against someone if they are a deadly threat to you. If the cop did not provide a valid reason for breaking into your home, and you did not give permission and there was no signed warrant- you will be off the hook. I don't care who is breaking into my home- drunk, robber, white guy, black guy, cop- they are all going to have to deal with flying rounds.
*sigh*

There are certain circumstance where cops don't need a warrant to break down your door.

Look. . .you guys can sit here all day coming up with scenerios trying to validate your shooting them. But the fact is, cops are almost always going to have a warrant, almost all warrants are "knock" warrants, and cops inherently identify themselves.

Sure. You can come up with some off the wall weird conspiracy idea about how cops are going to kick in your door because some guy on a message board had an uncle who's best friend's sister had this happen to them, but the fact is, this kinda thing is so far out there, the word "paranoia" doesn't even cover it.

Major Miner II
04-26-2006, 3:10 PM
Sadly, in Californa, people have been killed in their own homes by bad guys dressed up as cops.
Really?

Link?

50 Freak
04-26-2006, 3:22 PM
I was referring to the poster talking about being detained at gunpoint as possible burglary suspects. There's a US Supreme Court case called Terry v. Ohio. I said that everyone is a threat, until proven otherwise. It had nothing to do with guilt.

One thing I was taught as a young rookie. Whenever respond to ANY call, there is always a gun.

You guys are smart, you can figure it out, I'm sure.

I was referring the the post where two officers appeared at someone's door and one officer drew his weapon and pointed it at the homeowner because the homeowner had leaned on his door. The officers then asked to come in and check.

And there have been a string of home invasions where the bad guys have dressed up as cops. I'm sure someone here can link you to the newspaper articles. Also, wasn't the last big serial killer favorite technique was to dress up in uniform while he abducted women?

Back to what I'm saying. If you come to my door and ask to come in. And I say no, and you force your way in, I'm considering it a home invasion and you are a bad guy dressed up as a cop. Hence I'm returning fire. Now if you come back with a warrant. By all means, come on it.

*sigh*

There are certain circumstance where cops don't need a warrant to break down your door. Agreed. They hear screaming and see blood on the your shirt. A bad guy runs through your house after robbing the local bank. Both very good reasons. A mistaken 911 hang up is not. And that was the case in this example.

50 Freak
04-26-2006, 3:29 PM
http://losangeles.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/pressrel06/la030206usa.htm

http://flyservers.registerfly.com/members5/policecrime.com/policemisconduct2/tenn_police.html

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/gan/press/11-02-02.html

2 minute search on Google.

Wasn't there also a case in Santa Barbra where the Sheriff's department invaded and "accidently" shot a person. Turns out they wanted his property and seized it as part of a "War on Drugs" campaign. Anyone remember that? His widow won millions from the Sheriff's department. Happened about 6 years ago.

thesneakyrussian
04-26-2006, 3:44 PM
it's the price we pay for having cops bust in to save victims. what's the alternative? I dunno.

educate the public to not be terrified by firearms maybe?

glen avon
04-26-2006, 3:49 PM
http://losangeles.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/pressrel06/la030206usa.htm

http://flyservers.registerfly.com/members5/policecrime.com/policemisconduct2/tenn_police.html

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/gan/press/11-02-02.html

2 minute search on Google.

Wasn't there also a case in Santa Barbra where the Sheriff's department invaded and "accidently" shot a person. Turns out they wanted his property and seized it as part of a "War on Drugs" campaign. Anyone remember that? His widow won millions from the Sheriff's department. Happened about 6 years ago.

the scott paper heir.

bwiese
04-26-2006, 3:52 PM
Sadly, in Californa, people have been killed in their own homes by bad guys dressed up as cops.


Really?

Link?

There was the Santa Barbara area (San Berdoo? been awhile) shooting of a guy, last name of Scott, I believe. Supposed drug grower but nothing was found, he was a rich guy, etc. Just a bad raid on bad info.

Scott thought he was being burgled and was ready to defend himself but was shot by cops.

There were allegations that he was being harrassed since his land was wanted by county - or something similar.

This is approximate and dimly remembered, someone I'm sure will put up a link.

Major Miner II
04-26-2006, 3:53 PM
Agreed. They hear screaming and see blood on the your shirt. A bad guy runs through your house after robbing the local bank. Both very good reasons. A mistaken 911 hang up is not. And that was the case in this example.
There are more reasons than that.

Major Miner II
04-26-2006, 3:55 PM
http://losangeles.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/pressrel06/la030206usa.htm

http://flyservers.registerfly.com/members5/policecrime.com/policemisconduct2/tenn_police.html

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/gan/press/11-02-02.html

2 minute search on Google.

Wasn't there also a case in Santa Barbra where the Sheriff's department invaded and "accidently" shot a person. Turns out they wanted his property and seized it as part of a "War on Drugs" campaign. Anyone remember that? His widow won millions from the Sheriff's department. Happened about 6 years ago.
Paradox said "people (plural) have been killed".

Don't see even one person dying here.

50 Freak
04-26-2006, 4:00 PM
Paradox said "people (plural) have been killed".

Don't see even one person dying here.

So the lives and homes of many innocent people being destroyed does not qualify in your book?

Crap dude, who pied in your Cheerios.

blacklisted
04-26-2006, 4:01 PM
There are more reasons than that.

List the reasons please (other than probable cause reasons and warrant).

Major Miner II
04-26-2006, 4:08 PM
So the lives and homes of many innocent people being destroyed does not qualify in your book?

Crap dude, who pied in your Cheerios.
lol

Twist it anyway you want.

Someone said "people had been killed", and I asked for a link.

Still don't have one.

glen avon
04-26-2006, 4:09 PM
What if the cop is not in uniform, and did not say he was a cop? He just busts in and aims a gun at you.

that's not performing any official duty. cops have a duty to identify themselves.

cops don't want to shoot people and *really* don't want to get shot.

Major Miner II
04-26-2006, 4:09 PM
List the reasons please (other than probable cause reasons and warrant). Probable cause and indigent circumstances are what I'm talking about.

Reasons you can enter without a warrant.

You don't need to "see a bloody corpse" to enter as was suggested.

Major Miner II
04-26-2006, 4:09 PM
cops don't want to shoot people and *really* don't want to get shot.
That sentence will never make it through the tin foil.

blacklisted
04-26-2006, 4:11 PM
That sentence will never make it through the tin foil.

I don't see any tinfoil in this thread...

MOST cops may not want to shoot people, and certainly all cops (or all people for that matter) do not want to get shot.

This does not change the fact that there are cops out there that abuse their position of power, and enjoy every bit of it. There are also jumpy cops that are trigger happy or can't control themselves under stress.

It is these cops that I worry about (although not too much, the worry is there).

Major Miner II
04-26-2006, 4:11 PM
I don't see any tinfoil in this thread...
look up! ;)

thesneakyrussian
04-26-2006, 4:32 PM
I was referring to the poster talking about being detained at gunpoint as possible burglary suspects. There's a US Supreme Court case called Terry v. Ohio.


yes, there is, what's your point? that the supreme court in 1968 decided that a cop can search anyone for any reason?


I said that everyone is a threat, until proven otherwise. It had nothing to do with guilt.

One thing I was taught as a young rookie. Whenever respond to ANY call, there is always a gun.

You guys are smart, you can figure it out, I'm sure.

and then you claim we're paranoid. hell yeah we're paranoid and rightly so because of cops like yourself. were you by any chance trained in say russia or mexico? 'cuz that the general attitude over there: shoot first ask questions later.

Matt C
04-26-2006, 4:33 PM
instant pretext 911 raid.
Heheheh, we have a name for it now, I wonder how common this is?

Someone said "people had been killed", and I asked for a link.

Quick search finds MANY, here are a few-

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/817524/posts

http://www.officer.com/news/IBS/kprc/news-2295507.html

http://www.detnews.com/2005/metro/0508/19/B06-285252.htm

Bottom line is a uniform and badge does not make you a cop. If I call and confirm everything that is one thing but point guns at people from the begining on a 911 hangup call is insanely dangerous. If I had pointed the my gun at the cop, or he had pointed his at me, there would have been a shooting. If you are afraid to approach a situation like this without a drawn weapon, find another line of work.

I am not a "tin-foil hat" person, I have 5+ years of LE experience and a US Government Secret clearance. I do however value ALL of my civil rights and I will not give them up, ever. If cops are breaking the law I will ensure they are brought to justice like any other criminal.

If the cop really cared about people in other rooms taken hostage, he would have checked the whole house. Before this incident I had a trust in the local PD which is the only reason I opened the door. That is gone now. I do not open the door for anyone now, be they police or like dressed robbers. Anyone kicking in the door without presenting a warrant gets the full mag of .308.

ohsmily
04-26-2006, 4:43 PM
Probable cause and indigent circumstances are what I'm talking about.

Reasons you can enter without a warrant.

You don't need to "see a bloody corpse" to enter as was suggested.


HAHAHAAHA, indigent circumstances, huh?

Not digging at you in particular, but it is amusing to see everyone contributing what they THINK the law is. Even cops have guidelines that they must follow, but they certainly don't know the finer points of the law nor have they studied the Supreme Court cases that set those guidelines.

thesneakyrussian
04-26-2006, 4:44 PM
That sentence will never make it through the tin foil.

roiiight:

"Carrion was shot three times by a San Bernardino County Sheriff's deputy in late January, even though Carrion, who was unarmed, appeared to be following orders."

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=local&id=4117847

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/10/22/vietnamese.shooting.ap/

and so on.

<censored>i'll keep my views of LE and their activities private, not that anyone gives a damn anyways</censored>

and yes, i do not have any respect for LE and i do not rely on their protection. NO was a perfect example among many other. after all it's called "Law ENFORCEMENT" and not citizen protection services or something along those lines.

50 Freak
04-26-2006, 4:48 PM
full mag of .308.

hehehehe.....ditto.

I didn't survive Vietnam to be shot by some dumb *** fraidy cat cop. I train like I fight and my FAL is always loaded and accessable.

Present me a warrant, you're welcome in..please don't kick my dog, she will rip your leg off.

No warrant. No entry.

Simple as that.

And respect is a two way street. You treat me like an ***, I will be an *** and will be calling your watch commander to rip him a new arse hole. And if nothing is done, I'll go even further. Done it before.

socalguns
04-26-2006, 4:59 PM
i'd be careful letting the cop in on special terms.. I seem to recall hearing something about once you let him in he can pretty much do as he wants and search your entire house.. or maybe it was car.

:confused:

There is no such thing as partial consent.
But apparently there is however "casual consent",



http://www.midnightspecial.net/materials/dealingwithpolice.html

That is, if you are stopped by the cops and you get out of the car but don't close the door, they can search the car and claim that they though you were indicating consent by leaving the door ajar.

paradox
04-26-2006, 5:02 PM
lol

Twist it anyway you want.

Someone said "people had been killed", and I asked for a link.

Still don't have one.


Give a man time to look up the links. I have dial-up and no access to Lexis-Nexis, so it took me a bit, and I still didn't find all the stories I was looking for.

Here is one where someone died. The BGs didn't flash fake badges, but they did give the initial impression that they were conducting a police raid:
http://www.compassionatecoalition.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=8076&sid=46f827fc80a925f39fdcf1e7e247ed1b
Laytonville, CA Nov 19, 2005 -- Les Crane, 39, owner of Mendo Spiritual Remedies in Laytonville and Hemp Plus Ministry in Ukiah, was shot to death at his Laytonville home early Friday morning.

Mendocino County Sheriff's Detective Commander D.J. Miller said Crane was killed about 2:30 a.m. in the home invasion. "The investigation has disclosed it appears to be robbery motivated. An undisclosed amount of currency and processed marijuana was stolen," Miller said.
...
"Les was in bed sleeping. I was sleeping in another bedroom," she said, noting she woke up to the sound of footsteps. "Four to six guys ... they were wearing all black with black masks. ... They busted down the door and all you could hear them saying was This is a raid, this is a raid, this is a raid,'" she said, noting the voices sounded young.

Here is one where thankfully no one died, but the armed home invaders made extensive use of e-bay goods:
http://www.onlinepot.org/grow/riskygrowing.htm
By Ralph Montańo and Niesha Gates -- Bee Staff Writers
Published 2:15 a.m. PDT Tuesday, October 15, 2002
A bold, daytime home-invasion robbery targeting a marijuana garden in
El Dorado County has alarmed law-enforcement officials and highlighted
risks for growers of medicinal pot.

Four gunmen dressed as FBI and ATF agents forced their way into a
family's rural Lotus home last week and took 20 plants -- which the
homeowner told authorities were for medicinal purposes -- and about
$300 in cash.

There was also another medical cannabis paitent that was killed in Lake County (I think) a year or two ago that remains unsolved. I haven't been able to find that one yet.

During my search, I found a few examples of cops gone bad as well:

The Donald Scott case: http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17369

An Op-Ed with several examples: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v98/n725/a01.html

Another wrong address leading to death: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v99/n926/a08.html


Unfortunatly, I think these examples may only be the tip of the iceberg....

elsolo
04-26-2006, 5:15 PM
You may be right, but if you stated come on in and look, then you just gave up your rights. That statement alone just screwed you out of coverage by you lawyer.


I guess you don't understand the difference bewteen consenting to a search when asked by an officer, and complying with the ORDERS being barked at you by a cop pointing a gun at you.

I never consented to a search, I just did what what the officer pointing the gun at me told me to do:

"Sept back, sit down in that chair, keep your hands on your knees..."

That coupled with the knowledge that I had nothing to hide or lose by allowing them to look for a hostage, and potentially everything to lose by "resisting" the commands of a gun weilding twitchy street cop, I choose the easiest path to resolve the issue.

There was no question it was real cops either, two marked squad cars were visable on the street right behind them.

I don't know what fantasy world some of the posters here live in, but when two guys have guns drawn on you, that battle is over; even if what they did just gave you the victory in the war.

When a cop is pointing a gun at you, just do what he says (unless he says "Get up" ;) ), you are no longer acting out of free will but under coersion, you are not consenting you are complying. Being 'right' doesn't much matter to me if I get killed in the process.

socalguns
04-26-2006, 5:16 PM
*sigh*

There are certain circumstance where cops don't need a warrant to break down your door.

Look. . .you guys can sit here all day coming up with scenerios trying to validate your shooting them. But the fact is, cops are almost always going to have a warrant, almost all warrants are "knock" warrants, and cops inherently identify themselves.

Sure. You can come up with some off the wall weird conspiracy idea about how cops are going to kick in your door because some guy on a message board had an uncle who's best friend's sister had this happen to them, but the fact is, this kinda thing is so far out there, the word "paranoia" doesn't even cover it.

Don't be naive.
Just because you go through life without having
bad contact with the police doesn't mean
it doesn't happen every day.


http://www.tgorski.com/Drug%20War/civilian%20casualities%20of%20the%20drug%20war%200 10723.htm
http://stopthedrugwar.org/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10341708/

FreedomIsNotFree
04-26-2006, 5:19 PM
Cannabis Clubs, legal dispensaries of marijuana, have been robbed on numerous occassions.

Prop 215 patients, people that can legally posses and grow marijuana, have had their homes robbed on numerous occassions.

Often times by criminals claiming to be law enforcement.

I know of at least one dispensary that has two armed security guards out front.

I'm curious as to the legal protections these people have when it comes to the ownership of firearms and how they relate to these circumstances. I imagine if someone is legally growing in their home they could protect their marijuana just as they protect their other property....interesting.

socalguns
04-26-2006, 5:27 PM
Yeah, but if your door is locked, you don't open the dang door

paradox
04-26-2006, 5:44 PM
More examples of perps impersonating police in the US.

http://www.local10.com/news/8144644/detail.html
MIAMI -- Police say that they are looking for two men who impersonated FBI agents, shot a driver and carjacked a vehicle.
At about 2:30 p.m. today, a driver was approached in the area of 179th Street and 32nd Avenue by two men wearing FBI jackets. During a scuffle, shots were fired, and the driver was wounded in the hand.
The two men took off in the driver's black, two-door Chevrolet Monte Carlo.
Police are searching for the men and the vehicle. If you have any information, you are asked to call Miami Dade Crime Stoppers at (305) 471-TIPS.

http://www.seacoastonline.com/2002news/2_5_sb2.htm

BOSTON - A man who police say forced his way into an apartment and fatally shot a 3-year-old boy faced charges including murder and home invasion.
...
According to investigators, the boy's father, Ian Percival, was scuffling at the door with the assailant when the youngster was shot in the back while standing in the first-floor apartment's foyer at 79 Barry St. Investigators said Sherrod tired to gain access by impersonating a police officer.


http://transcoder.usablenet.com/tt/http://www.riversideca.gov/rpd/press/2004releases/nov1804.htm

Riverside, Ca- On 11-17-04, members of the Riverside Police Department arrested Jeffery Joseph Lewis at his home on Jane Street, Riverside. Detectives served a search warrant at the residence and recovered metal police style badges and business cards, which represented Lewis as an investigator for the Department of Justice. Several firearms, ammunition, and police related equipment were also recovered.

Lewis was arrested and booked at the Robert Presley Detention Center for allegations of robbery, impersonating a peace officer, and false imprisonment regarding an incident that occurred on about 10-29-04. Lewis, allegedly, entered the Riverside Medical Clinic on Arlington Avenue, Riverside and identified himself as a “Special Investigator.” He detained a doctor and medical assistant in their office after showing them a business card and metal badge. Lewis allegedly took several watches valuing approximately $2,000.00 that the doctor had in his office and left.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/8143001/detail.html
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- A teenager was arrested Saturday night and charged with the murder of a 23-year-old nursing student.

Carjacking Investigation Leads Police To Murder Suspect
Kimothy Simmons, 17, is suspected in last week's slaying of Sarah Whitlock.
Investigators have said that Whitlock was stabbed to death in her Riverside apartment on March 10 by Simmons, who may have been impersonating a police officer at the time.
Authorities said Simmons was arrested during a carjacking and brought in for questioning. His arrest came on the same day that Whitlock's ashes were scattered at sea.
Undersheriff Frank Mackesy said a detective remembered seeing Simmons on a surveillance tape that showed him allegedly shoplifting a shirt with the word "police" on it.
On the night Whitlock was killed, police said they found a narcotics officer's baseball cap, and a price tag from the police T-shirt, plus an unloaded gun and holster.
...
After Whitlock's slaying, police told residents to closely examine officers' identification before letting them into their home.

paradox
04-26-2006, 5:56 PM
I'm curious as to the legal protections these people have when it comes to the ownership of firearms and how they relate to these circumstances. I imagine if someone is legally growing in their home they could protect their marijuana just as they protect their other property....interesting.

So long as they aren't prohibited from owning firearms due to a past felony, mental hospital stay, etc, medical cannabis patients (with proper doctor recommendation) can own weapons and can use them to defend themselves, their home, and their medicine just like any other Californian. According to the State Supreme Court Mower decision, state officers and courts need to treat medical cannabis like they would any other prescription medication.

You can shoot armed home invaders who have come for your husband's liquid morphine. You can shoot armed home invaders who have come for your wife's $30,000 chemo meds. You can shoot armed home invaders who have come for your father's medicinal cannabis.

Sweet home California.

ohsmily
04-26-2006, 6:11 PM
Cannabis Clubs, legal dispensaries of marijuana, have been robbed on numerous occassions.

Prop 215 patients, people that can legally posses and grow marijuana, have had their homes robbed on numerous occassions.

Often times by criminals claiming to be law enforcement.

I know of at least one dispensary that has two armed security guards out front.

I'm curious as to the legal protections these people have when it comes to the ownership of firearms and how they relate to these circumstances. I imagine if someone is legally growing in their home they could protect their marijuana just as they protect their other property....interesting.

You speak as though the legality of these cannabis houses is completely decided. They are not legal under federal law. Only CA law. Federal law preempts the CA law. The DEA can bust them when they feel like it.

thesneakyrussian
04-26-2006, 6:18 PM
You speak as though the legality of these cannabis houses is completely decided. They are not legal under federal law. Only CA law. Federal law preempts the CA law. The DEA can bust them when they feel like it.

yet another reason to question LE and it's entire existence.

disclaimer: i don't smoke pot, don't grow it and don't care for it.

paradox
04-26-2006, 6:28 PM
You speak as though the legality of these cannabis houses is completely decided. They are not legal under federal law. Only CA law. Federal law preempts the CA law. The DEA can bust them when they feel like it.


To properly re-phrase: the legality of cannabis clubs is still a grey area within state law, but state LEOs don't want to touch it with a hundred foot pole. Under state law only patients their "primary caregiver," or a countywide collective can grow, possess, or transport cannabis. Whether a retail storefront is really an example of any of the above is still in question.

The feds have their own law and do their own thing (even though Administrative Law Francis Young told them they should change the law because it rests on factually incorrect assumptions regarding cannabis). Federal law doesn’t really trump State law: both are rather independent from each other.

ohsmily
04-26-2006, 6:35 PM
The feds have their own law and do their own thing (even though Administrative Law Francis Young told them they should change the law because it rests on factually incorrect assumptions regarding cannabis). Federal law doesn’t really trump State law: both are rather independent from each other.

Wrong...How could you make a blanket statement like that? Are you kidding me?

They are NOT independent from each other. Yes, of course there are separate state and federal laws. But you sure can't violate federal law simply because state law says you can. Federal law is supreme. I know this is beyond you, but the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution ensures that there is some uniformity and minimum standards in the areas that Congress and the federal government have sought to regulate.

paradox
04-26-2006, 6:59 PM
Wrong...How could you make a blanket statement like that? Are you kidding me?

They are NOT independent from each other. Yes, of course there are separate state and federal laws. But you sure can't violate federal law simply because state law says you can. Federal law is supreme. I know this is beyond you, but the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution ensures that there is some uniformity and minimum standards in the areas that Congress and the federal government have sought to regulate.

I said that they were rather independent from each other. Some things are illegal under State Law and not under Federal and vice versa. State courts and federal courts look to separate sets of laws and case law even if they do acknowledge each other in passing. Federalism is funny that way. State and Federal courts try to stay on the same page, but often diverge. Hell, even within a certain court there can be extreme differences: look how the 9th circuit and the 5th circuit federal courts interpret the second amendment. Regarding medical cannabis and the feds, not all the legal wrangling has finished. There are still cases working their way through the federal system that are arguing points of law that haven’t been dealt with by the circuit courts or above. By the time this boondoggle has been legally settled, I imagine the law will have changed: it's hard for politicians to diverge from the opinion of >70% of their constituents for too long.


ETA: ug, sorry for such thread drift. Now back to your regularly scheduled thread about police entering homes or derivative topics thereof.

FreedomIsNotFree
04-26-2006, 7:26 PM
You speak as though the legality of these cannabis houses is completely decided. They are not legal under federal law. Only CA law. Federal law preempts the CA law. The DEA can bust them when they feel like it.


It is settled, as you said, on a state level. in terms of the feds.....you have to have over 99 plants to trigger any mandatory minimums therefor unless you go over that amount in the super vast majority of cases they are left to the states to handle as they see fit. You don't see the DEA raiding individuals homes for growing personal amounts of marijuana.

There have been many cases even over the 99 plant limit that were left to the states to prosecute.

CA cops can't just hold you and call one of their fed buddies to come make an arrest either.

As far as CA is concerned the matter is settled. CA LEO must respect all of the states laws....not just the ones they agree with.

ridingonfumes
04-26-2006, 8:00 PM
That is why they don't let us shoot people in the arms or legs, because we're probably going to miss.

maybe but dont forget the REAL REASON they want you guys to do that

a person shot in the torso is less likely to survive. and a dead man cant defend himself in court, sue, or testify against a officer as to weather or not he was in the right to shoot.

as for myself i will not open the door. i have cats that i dont want getting out and dogs that i dont want getting shot.


"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" --- BENJAMIN FRANKLIN



911 is a joke
read this
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11100871/

so they cant have it both ways (even though they would like us to think otherwise) they say if they get a call they HAVE TO COME OUT even if they call back and you say it was a mistake. but we saw right there a example that they DO NOT have to come out EVERY SINGLE time they get a call
or do they? idk but they cant have it both ways EITHER THEY DO OR DONT the only difference is the individual cop or 911 operator that gets the call and THEIR OPINION'S, BELIEFS, AND FEELINGS
but those opinion, beliefs, and feelings can be wrong and quite often are wrong.
thats why we have rights, because the founders of this country knew the system was not perfect.

thats why we cant open the door even if the cops motives are innocent and true. its our right and to give any of our rights up is wrong.
it only makes the cops conditioned to the point where they expect us to
and think we are jerks if we dont, and it also conditions the public into thinking that "we have to let them in"
if it keep going the way it is in another 50 or 100 years they will take those rights away from us and there wont be enough people left who know how it is SUPPOSED to be to do anything about it

or the time i was at this girls house and they came to the door saying they had a 911 call and had to check inside. when we told him she hadnt had a phone turned on yet at that house he had that look on his face like we caught him in a lie and turned real nice fast :D

filefish
04-26-2006, 8:09 PM
This place has officially gone bananas...


if I unholsterd a weppon and / or brandished it without a threat i would go to jail as would any non leo, leo MAY have a note made in his personal file


recently we had an incoding in hollywood where there was a holloween party and a guy dressed as a gangstar was shot and killed through a window by leo's responding to a disturbing the peace at a party.. itchy itchy fingers

ridingonfumes
04-26-2006, 8:15 PM
edit humm those didnt work

bodyarmorguy27
04-26-2006, 8:57 PM
if I unholsterd a weppon and / or brandished it without a threat i would go to jail as would any non leo, leo MAY have a note made in his personal file


recently we had an incoding in hollywood where there was a holloween party and a guy dressed as a gangstar was shot and killed through a window by leo's responding to a disturbing the peace at a party.. itchy itchy fingers

It happened five years ago.

Did you forget the part about the guy pointing a replica pistol at the officer standing in the window?

It was an unfortunate incident for everyone involved. There were mistakes made on both sides.

natrab
04-26-2006, 9:52 PM
To avoid the potential for a gunfight with a cop, I always answer the door with a phone and a holstered gun (and I don't open it at first). If it's a cop, I will tell them that I'm calling 911 to confirm that they are really a cop. If this is confirmed by 911, I will remove and unload my weapon before opening the door. I will then present my ID to prove that I am the resident. This has happened to me once and the cop was quite impressed with my method for handling it. I think he had intended to search my home, but after what I had done he seemed satisfied that there was nothing going on.

If he had asked to search, I would have asked why and without a very good reason I would have politely refused. If he had insisted then I would insist that he get a search warrant and return. If a cop were to draw a gun on me in this situation, I would comply. If my door gets busted down and all I see is a weapon pointed in my general direction, I will take action. There's no way to say exactly what I'd do as each situation involves a different action plan. My goal is to not have to shoot and to not get shot at.

CALI-gula
04-26-2006, 9:58 PM
"I hear ya knockin but ya can't come in" so says Little Richard.

Sorry; nobody gets in, and I don't wear a tin-foil hat. I would no more easily let in a police officer than I would a guy wearing an orange jumper-suit with numbers on the breast, selling magazines door to door.

And for all I know, the cop IS the magazine guy, dressed up like a cop! Home invasions were quite frequent the past 6 years in Los Angeles, being vetted by Ex-cops portraying real cops, even using ex-police cars painted to look like black&whites that they bought at OPG auctions.

I don't have to trust anyone, period. You don't come in unless I say so. I am not breaking any laws - you don't come in. You have a search warrant? If even probable, for what? OK, I check you out first.

If an officer knocks on my door, I ask him to identify himself (which they usually do) and I also ask for his/their car number. I DID exactly this on one occasion where my next door neighbor reported a prowler entering my garage (it was actually me late at night when the garage door opener fried out).

It was about 3:00AM, they come to my door - I was still up cleaning a motorcycle Hitachi set of carburetors while watching a late-night horror movie. They knock, all is congenial, but they seem serious. They identify themselves, asked a couple of questions, but are standing VERY close to my door looking through attempting to see what is in my house - they are there for one thing and looking to see if there is something else that I am doing that might be trouble. I close the inner door further, blocking their view of my abode with me. The outer Hubbard steel screen door is locked. There is nothing they can do to get past it.

We talk, nice words exchanged - but they are not being to the point for some reason. I asked from which station they hailed from. I then closed the door back on them and called the station non-emergency dispatcher to tell them I had so-and-so officers at my door, in car number XX, gave her my address (which she probably already had just by the home-phone call) and would she please confirm their car was at my address. They will not likely give you the address first; you give them the address, and they will confirm that is the location of the car/officers, to determine just where that particular car is at that time. I went back to them and when they fianlly get around to why they are there, I confirm it was me in my garage, shimmying through the side window - my neighbor surely thought I was a burglar as I did this in the dark to prevent the neighbors dog from going crazy - always goes nuts when I turn on my lights or my neighbors motion-lights flick on.

The conversation lead to "Ok Sir, have a nice night". No big deal. But at 3:00AM - forget it - you are nobody at 3:00AM. At 3:00AM you may as well be OJ Simpson or Richard Ramirez knocking on my door, even in your blue suit and shiny badge.

Even WITH a search warrant, you don't get in until I check it out, period. My house, too bad, you can't come in. Search Warrant? Show me. What were your names and car number again?

And believe me - you won't be able to "kick" down my door - it is VERY well made. You try and I call the police; whether you are real or not. You are a further threat? I keep a Minivault bolted close to my door with contents especially catered to unruly Trick-or-Treaters that don't realize Halloween is not in July.

Just for laughs, I did a VERY brief search and here are just a few articles that came up where criminals posed as police officers, sometimes doing so very professionally, sometimes even stating the had "search warrants" and yes, in some cases, people got killed.

http://www.officer.com/article/article.jsp?id=17780&siteSection=5

http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_109115955.html

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=local&id=3857775

http://www.officer.com/article/article.jsp?id=9095&siteSection=1

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/crimestoppers/news-article.aspx?storyid=54185

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12087397/from/RL.2/

http://www.ocregister.com/ocr/2004/08/27/sections/local/crime_courts/article_217711.php

http://www.detnews.com/2005/metro/0508/26/B07-293591.htm


And just how dumb of a twit do you have to be to believe this guy????

http://www.local10.com/news/8830685/detail.html?rss=mia&psp=news


http://images.ibsys.com/2006/0419/8831531.jpg



.

WhiteSands
04-26-2006, 10:36 PM
When dealing with LEO always remember in the back of you mind: "This guy struggled 8 years to get his GED".

LEOs cost their city and counties more than any other single agency because of their lack of legal and constitutional knowledge.

filefish
04-26-2006, 10:51 PM
It happened five years ago.

Did you forget the part about the guy pointing a replica pistol at the officer standing in the window?

It was an unfortunate incident for everyone involved. There were mistakes made on both sides.

yea but it was a haloween party the gangstar probably thought the cops were party gowers, I would have. how about 2 months ago when the vet airman was shot 3 times in the back... lying on the ground... one thing for shure... the leo was not a very good shot. itchy itchy fingers

natrab
04-26-2006, 10:51 PM
I am far from paranoid. I am cautious though. My home is one of the few places where I can generally not have to worry about my safety. That's because it's well defended. Have you ever had the **** kicked out of you? Ever feel like you weren't going to live through a confrontation? I've been there and got off lucky, so don't patronize me and tell me I'm paranoid. It only takes one home invasion to leave you and your family dead, and it DOES happen. Being unprepared can mean life or death - this is true whether you are armed or not.

filefish
04-26-2006, 11:01 PM
no no that story is a fraud, he is a real doctor. he gave me a free prostate exam :eek: :confused: :eek:


[I]

And just how dumb of a twit do you have to be to believe this guy????

http://www.local10.com/news/8830685/detail.html?rss=mia&psp=news


http://images.ibsys.com/2006/0419/8831531.jpg



.

elsolo
04-26-2006, 11:05 PM
With all the time spent Google searching for home invasion robbers posing as cops (rather rare), how about some of you "not without a warrant" types do a little research on "exigent circumstances"(very common)

50 Freak
04-26-2006, 11:37 PM
Seem like to me that to enter a persons house without a warrant and under Exigent Circumstances. A few tests must be met.

1) It must be a situation where people are in imminent danger.
2) evidence faces imminent destruction
3) suspect will escape.

A simple, hell no you can't come in without a warrant simply does not meet those test.

Holy cripes, are you people paranoid or what? How in the hell do you people live your lives in that much fear? How do you go out and get groceries? Seriously.
And I agree with you MREX, some of the people here are a little paranoid. At least I used to think so until a cousin of mine had her home subject to a home invasion.

Parents were tied up along with the maid and other members of the family. Only one that was not was the youngest daughter which the robbers took into another room. No way in hell my family is ever going through that. I answer my door with a glock in hand ever since that little incident.

Funny how it happened in one of the most wealthy suburbs of S. Cal. Just shows you it can happen to you. No matter where.

ridingonfumes
04-26-2006, 11:51 PM
With all the time spent Google searching for home invasion robbers posing as cops (rather rare), how about some of you "not without a warrant" types do a little research on "exigent circumstances"(very common)


you cal take your exigent circumstances and stick .... .... well you get the idea.

you are just trying to keep the myth going that the cops can do what they want.

but the truth is if the cop thinks he has "exigent circumstances" thats fine but only if he is right.

if he forces his way in against your wishes and it turns out he is wrong (like no hostages or nobody was running from him in the first place) THEN ITS GOING TO BE HIS ***** ON THE LINE and most of them wount bust down a door unless they have dam good reason

exigent circumstances dont mean crap in this situation.
we are talking about a person in his own home who KNEW FOR SURE that nothing illegal was going on inside, no 911 call was made, and that no fugitives were hiding in his house.

elsolo
04-27-2006, 12:05 AM
Well, the cop "knows for sure" he was dispatched to a home for a 911 hangup, and there are requirements for them to make sure nobody is being held against their will.

Being told by a 911 operator that somebody called 911 from that location gives the cops reason to believe that somebody at that location is in imminant danger. It's called the "emergency aid exception" and allows an officer to enter without a warrant ONLY to make sure nobody is in danger. They can't start digging through your desk drawers and such like they would if they had a warrant.

The 4th ammendment is a cut and dry as the 2nd, there are a million pages of exceptions and modifications, reading the BoR and assuming that's all there is to it does not make you very well versed in the law.


Go ahead and ask a few cops and lawyers about the legality of this, I sure did after it happened to me a few years ago.

filefish
04-27-2006, 12:19 AM
Holy cripes, are you people paranoid or what? How in the hell do you people live your lives in that much fear? How do you go out and get groceries? Seriously.

This forum is going downhill fast. This place is becoming as nutty as THR and TFL.


Ok here is a story I think I have told it here before. Not too long and worth the read.


This last thanksgiving, my wife and I were packing the trailer for our annual trip to glamice. We were arguing about the food or something inconsequential in the front yard. Coincidentally the police had dispatched on an unrelated incident about a block away. They were done and decided to intrude on our domestic dispute. Mind you we were just arguing, no pushing or anything physical or threatening, just your garden variety husband wife argument. We were not using profanity or raising our voices all that much. Anyways the local LEO’S decided to interview completely unsolicited.

They separated us and upon interviewing my wife discovered I owned a few guns. They told me they wanted to go in my house and take them. I said “no, we are outside, you were not called the house is locked and no you can not go in” The LEO told me that it was just a 72 hr hold and I could just go down to the pd and pick them up at my convenience. I said “no you are not going in my house, you are not taking my guns”



:mad: at this point the “ bad cop” chimed in “well then we will just arrest you and your wife and we will send your 5 month old infant to orangewood children’s facility till we figure this out”:eek:


short story, they got my guns right then.

Long story, I had not been in my gun locker in over a year and misplaced the key so they broke the door off before I found it. They broke my French bedroom door because they were too stupid to open it. They did not have a clue how to handle any of my guns they swept me with several of my own rifles with out checking chambers, :eek: just dumped them in the trunk of the car and banged the crap out of my prized 10/22 my dad gave me when I was 14. It was pristine.


Ok so here is the kicker. The whole 72 hr thing was a lie. Minimum 30 day CADOJ check, ~ $40 fee. Don’t dot an I or cross a T or miscalculate the fee and over pay as I did, and the app gets kicked back for another 30 day merry-go-round. Took me over 70 days to get my guns back

I did not do anything illegal. It is perfectly legal to argue with my wife.:confused:

socalguns
04-27-2006, 12:26 AM
A simple 911-hangup alone is NOT sufficient to enter.
They need more, like hearing screams when they show up.

socalguns
04-27-2006, 12:32 AM
Sic.
Here's a few good tips for you

http://www.nlg-la.org/Dealing_with_Police.pdf
http://www.crimethinc.com/police/when_dealing_with_police.pdf
http://www.midnightspecial.net/files/Dealing_With_Police_11.01.pdf

filefish
04-27-2006, 12:46 AM
Sic.
Here's a few good tips for you

http://www.nlg-la.org/Dealing_with_Police.pdf
http://www.crimethinc.com/police/when_dealing_with_police.pdf
http://www.midnightspecial.net/files/Dealing_With_Police_11.01.pdf


you forgot: if you are ever in a shoot out with them aim for the head they wear body armor

jdberger
04-27-2006, 12:52 AM
So I've been reading this and it's been getting longer while I'm reading....blah blah blah

The advice I'm hearing is when the cop comes to the door, call the police to make sure that he's a real cop and is supposed to be at your house. Is there a listed number for the watch commander? Do you have to call a particular station if you live in a big city? Can you just call 911? Who do you ask to talk to?

You also ask to see a warrant. Anyone here know what a real warrant looks like? How hard are they to fake? (I work in the legal field and I alter documents all the time). How are you to know if the judge's signature is real?

jdberger
04-27-2006, 12:53 AM
Oh, and hooray for me, that was my 500th post!

Matt C
04-27-2006, 12:55 AM
OK, here is what I am going to do if this happens again. I don't want my door kicked in ect. if they ave a right to or not. Honestly I think they do. In will open my door and if they want to come in and check they can, but I am NOT going to disarm. I will be carrying my m14 the whole time, at the ready.

It's my damn house, if the cop does not like it he can leave or not enter. If he has no problem turing his back on a guy with a rifle so he can check my house for "hostages" he is more than welcome.

filefish
04-27-2006, 1:12 AM
OK, here is what I am going to do if this happens again. I don't want my door kicked in ect. if they ave a right to or not. Honestly I think they do. In will open my door and if they want to come in and check they can, but I am NOT going to disarm. I will be carrying my m14 the whole time, at the ready.

It's my damn house, if the cop does not like it he can leave or not enter. If he has no problem turing his back on a guy with a rifle so he can check my house for "hostages" he is more than welcome.


probably a bad idea, i learned a long time ago in traffic court cops lie they do it on a regular basis and with no shame. you will be dead so who is going to tell your side

news at 11 man killed in shoot out with police, the department declined to comment pending an investigation but an inside source is quoted as saying the man just went bezerk. the police were seen removing a large cashe of assult type rifles and handguns fom his house


or


news at 11: after a long standoff and shootout leaving 2 officers dead inside his home, man surrenders peacfully. the department declined to comment pending an investigation but an inside source is quoted as saying the man just went bezerk. the police were seen removing a large cashe of assult type rifles and handguns fom his house


i do not see a good outcome. I have thought about telling them they could not bring guns im my home. proably would not work

call the police to make sure that he's a real cop and is supposed to be at your house. Is there a listed number for the watch commander? Do you have to call a particular station if you live in a big city? Can you just call 911? Who do you ask to talk to?

call 411 and ask for the "non emergency number" if you are on a cell pone 911 routs directly to chp and it will take a while to get to your local P.D. I keep a camcorder by the door redy to go becaus I have a 10 month old boy and an constantly tapeing him. you would better believe I will be tapeing any interactions I have with them in the future

taloft
04-27-2006, 1:48 AM
I would recommend calling your lawyer first thing. You don't have to be arrested to do this. Also, you should have the number to the closest station so you can confirm Police ID, 911 dispatch should be able to confirm as well. If they say they got a 911 call, ask them the nature of the call. Don't open the door in any event.

Don't open the door to read a warrant. You can read it just fine from the front window. If they actually had a search warrant, odds are good that your door is about to have a bad moment. Usually, if they are serving a warrant, they come in a large team with breach equipment. Don't open the door even if they have a search warrant, replacing the door casing is fairly inexpensive. Non-compliance isn't the same as resisting arrest. If you have confirmed the ID of the police and the warrant, don't resist. That is a fabulous way to wind up dead. You might get the few on the porch but, the rest of the department will be looking to put your head on a stick. Besides, they are just doing the job they are paid to do. Let the lawyers deal with them.

1. Be polite. It doesn't benefit you to be a *****.
2. Refuse any search, even if they have a warrant.
3. Keep your mouth shut. Request a lawyer.
4. If you can, record everything. Make sure you get the badge numbers, and names of everyone involved. If they won't give them to you, try and remember the car numbers.

We have had quite a few home invasions in San Diego County. Recently, we have had a couple of kidnappers posing as police abduct local citizens. It is a good idea to confirm Police ID, and most officers won't trip if you tell them that is what you are doing. YMMV

ridingonfumes
04-27-2006, 2:20 AM
If they actually had a search warrant, odds are good that your door is about to have a bad moment. Usually, if they are serving a warrant, they come in a large team with breach equipment.


exactly if they can legaly come in your house they will!
98% of the time they will not ask

the other 2% is other leo's, public officals, actors, news reporters, ect

glen avon
04-27-2006, 8:16 AM
...(I work in the legal field and I alter documents all the time). ...

:eek:

you what?

Major Miner II
04-27-2006, 8:24 AM
HAHAHAAHA, indigent circumstances, huh?

Not digging at you in particular, but it is amusing to see everyone contributing what they THINK the law is. Even cops have guidelines that they must follow, but they certainly don't know the finer points of the law nor have they studied the Supreme Court cases that set those guidelines.
I use to be a cop.

I know how and when I can enter a house.

Even who has to pay for the broken door.

socalguns
04-27-2006, 8:32 AM
indigent
adj : poor enough to need help from others

jdberger
04-27-2006, 8:41 AM
:eek:

you what?

relax....

Lets say I have a bates stamped copy of something that I need to give to a third party or something, I redact it. I've added footers and headers to pleadings using Scotch Tape and a copier...that kind of thing....

oh...and the occasional patent...(JUST KIDDING)

Major Miner II
04-27-2006, 8:47 AM
indigent
adj : poor enough to need help from others
*yawn*

Try another definition.

And remember. Cops only need to suspect there is a felony taking place in order to act.

bwiese
04-27-2006, 8:57 AM
Probable cause and indigent circumstances are what I'm talking about.
Reasons you can enter without a warrant.
You don't need to "see a bloody corpse" to enter as was suggested.



indigent
adj : poor enough to need help from others


*yawn*
Try another definition.
And remember. Cops only need to suspect there is a felony taking place in order to act.


No, you try another definition - or rather, another word.

He was noting that you'd originally stated 'indigent circumstances', instead of 'exigent circumstances' (the latter being the proper term).

If you can't get even the operative word correct, I doubt you have the detailed procedures described by that word down pat, either.

Grasping key concepts seems to be difficult for you. For example, a few months ago you were lecturing me about the "Office of Legislative Intent", something that could only exist in the Three Stooges.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=207179&postcount=6


Talk to the Office of Legislative Intent.
The law was to stop the propagation of new assault weapons.
By doing this, you are taking advantage of a loophole in the law, and creating more AW's.
Just deal with it.
Didn't say it was bad. Just is.


After I stopped laughing after 10 minutes, I realized you just needed a bit more grasp on reality or maybe a few more IQ points.

Major Miner II
04-27-2006, 9:11 AM
You're right.

My bad.

See? Some of us can own up when we're wrong. :D

EDIT: Not referring to the office of legislative intent.

Call you legislator. You'll find out about that one. They simply keep the records of committe hearing and floor ramblings.

odysseus
04-27-2006, 9:33 AM
We were arguing about the food or something inconsequential in the front yard. Coincidentally the police had dispatched on an unrelated incident about a block away. They were done and decided to intrude on our domestic dispute. Mind you we were just arguing, no pushing or anything physical or threatening, just your garden variety husband wife argument. We were not using profanity or raising our voices all that much. Anyways the local LEO’S decided to interview completely unsolicited.

They separated us and upon interviewing my wife discovered I owned a few guns. They told me they wanted to go in my house and take them. I said “no, we are outside, you were not called the house is locked and no you can not go in” The LEO told me that it was just a 72 hr hold and I could just go down to the pd and pick them up at my convenience. I said “no you are not going in my house, you are not taking my guns”

:mad: at this point the “ bad cop” chimed in “well then we will just arrest you and your wife and we will send your 5 month old infant to orangewood children’s facility till we figure this out”:eek:

short story, they got my guns right then.


If true, that is one of the more absolutely upsetting stories I have heard lately. I personally would be angry at my wife for telling cops we have firearms in the house. In this scenario you gave, it was none of their business what you have. Threatening he taking your children is a gestapo technique we hear about sometimes from some LE. That she could be used by the cops so easily is upsetting. Look often LEO have no idea what's going on in a situation like this, and as usual they assume the worst and act as if it is.

That one would have me in the Chief's office with a sit down with a concerned and harmed citizen.

SC_00_05
04-27-2006, 9:41 AM
No, you try another definition - or rather, another word.

He was noting that you'd originally stated 'indigent circumstances', instead of 'exigent circumstances' (the latter being the proper term).

If you can't get even the operative word correct, I doubt you have the detailed procedures described by that word down pat, either.

Grasping key concepts seems to be difficult for you. For example, a few months ago you were lecturing me about the "Office of Legislative Intent", something that could only exist in the Three Stooges.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=207179&postcount=6



After I stopped laughing after 10 minutes, I realized you just needed a bit more grasp on reality or maybe a few more IQ points.
Don't worry BWiese, this is only the guy that said he'd have no problem whatsoever, in going to any private residence and confiscating legal firearms if that's what his superiors told him to do. After all, he'd just be following orders and what's wrong with that?:mad:

SC_00_05
04-27-2006, 9:45 AM
Ok here is a story I think I have told it here before. Not too long and worth the read.


This last thanksgiving, my wife and I were packing the trailer for our annual trip to glamice. We were arguing about the food or something inconsequential in the front yard. Coincidentally the police had dispatched on an unrelated incident about a block away. They were done and decided to intrude on our domestic dispute. Mind you we were just arguing, no pushing or anything physical or threatening, just your garden variety husband wife argument. We were not using profanity or raising our voices all that much. Anyways the local LEO’S decided to interview completely unsolicited.

They separated us and upon interviewing my wife discovered I owned a few guns. They told me they wanted to go in my house and take them. I said “no, we are outside, you were not called the house is locked and no you can not go in” The LEO told me that it was just a 72 hr hold and I could just go down to the pd and pick them up at my convenience. I said “no you are not going in my house, you are not taking my guns”



:mad: at this point the “ bad cop” chimed in “well then we will just arrest you and your wife and we will send your 5 month old infant to orangewood children’s facility till we figure this out”:eek:


short story, they got my guns right then.

Long story, I had not been in my gun locker in over a year and misplaced the key so they broke the door off before I found it. They broke my French bedroom door because they were too stupid to open it. They did not have a clue how to handle any of my guns they swept me with several of my own rifles with out checking chambers, :eek: just dumped them in the trunk of the car and banged the crap out of my prized 10/22 my dad gave me when I was 14. It was pristine.


Ok so here is the kicker. The whole 72 hr thing was a lie. Minimum 30 day CADOJ check, ~ $40 fee. Don’t dot an I or cross a T or miscalculate the fee and over pay as I did, and the app gets kicked back for another 30 day merry-go-round. Took me over 70 days to get my guns back

I did not do anything illegal. It is perfectly legal to argue with my wife.:confused:
WOw, that is just a nightmare scenario. The urge to start choking those cops at that point would have been almost unstoppable. Too bad I'd end up dead, the wife would end up in jail somehow, and the child would get sent to family services.

glen avon
04-27-2006, 10:02 AM
...Grasping key concepts seems to be difficult for you....

...After I stopped laughing after 10 minutes, I realized you just needed a bit more grasp on reality or maybe a few more IQ points....

nice job on the personal insults. :rolleyes:

I am sorry that others are laughable to you and your IQ. It must be such a burden. I hope you can learn to cope like the rest of the superintelligent and just let us ignoramuses stumble about in our ignorant bliss.

thank you in advance for your silent charity.

icormba
04-27-2006, 10:07 AM
I was referring the the post where two officers appeared at someone's door and one officer drew his weapon and pointed it at the homeowner because the homeowner had leaned on his door. The officers then asked to come in and check.

And there have been a string of home invasions where the bad guys have dressed up as cops. I'm sure someone here can link you to the newspaper articles. Also, wasn't the last big serial killer favorite technique was to dress up in uniform while he abducted women?

Back to what I'm saying. If you come to my door and ask to come in. And I say no, and you force your way in, I'm considering it a home invasion and you are a bad guy dressed up as a cop. Hence I'm returning fire. Now if you come back with a warrant. By all means, come on it.

Agreed. They hear screaming and see blood on the your shirt. A bad guy runs through your house after robbing the local bank. Both very good reasons. A mistaken 911 hang up is not. And that was the case in this example.

Actually, about 10 years ago? There where several home invasions in the San Jose Vietnamese community and it turned out the perpetrator WAS uniformed San Jose PD!

bwiese
04-27-2006, 10:20 AM
nice job on the personal insults. :rolleyes:

I am sorry that others are laughable to you and your IQ. It must be such a burden. I hope you can learn to cope like the rest of the superintelligent and just let us ignoramuses stumble about in our ignorant bliss.


Hey, this guy is a cop. And he's conjuring up imaginary gov't offices out of thin air.

Office of Legislative Intent? I guess they hire seers, fortunetellers, and therapists. I can just see a new definition of assault weapon come after an "OLI" seance for Don Perata.

filefish
04-27-2006, 11:18 AM
WOw, that is just a nightmare scenario. The urge to start choking those cops at that point would have been almost unstoppable. Too bad I'd end up dead, the wife would end up in jail somehow, and the child would get sent to family services.

at the time it was a no problem. I realy like my guns but i love my family. the more I think about it thow the madder I get. this 28 year old punk was using my son as a pawn to get what he wanted. until this incodent I was verry pro LEO. now I have changed my tune

bodyarmorguy27
04-27-2006, 11:27 AM
Now you guys are advocating killing cops in the performance of their duties?

A big +1 for so called, law abiding gun owners across America.

filefish
04-27-2006, 11:34 AM
Now, you guys are advocating killing cops in the performance of their duties?

A big +1 for so called law abiding gun owners across America.

I don't recall anyone advocating killing leo's, some said that my experiance would make them want to. and i pointed out that in a shoot out to take head shots to avoid the body armor, but no one advocated anything harsher than noncompliance

50 Freak
04-27-2006, 12:00 PM
You also ask to see a warrant. Anyone here know what a real warrant looks like? How hard are they to fake? (I work in the legal field and I alter documents all the time). How are you to know if the judge's signature is real?

Gee...won't it say "WARRANT" on the top of the page?????

You have a right to demand a copy of the warrants and by law they have to give it to you. And if it turns out to be a fake warrant or fake signature, boy oh boy that police department better start holding bake sales cause the multi-million dollar lawsuit that will surely come afterwards is going to make their head spin. If I remember from my Consitutional Law class there was a case where something like this happened. Boy did the cops get a slap down.

Plus I wouldn't be advertising that you alter legal documents on an open forum. Not good ju ju.

Lastly, Body armor is nice and all, but unless you are wearing the big balistic plates no body armor is going to stop a 308 or even a 223. I typically use a 308 carbine as my home defense gun as I know there has been a trend of bad guys using body armor. And I know, 308's will go through your wall and you're neighbors wall. Well that's why I practice 1-2 times a month and fire hunreds of rounds per practice. I will hit what I shoot at. I'm not a believer in spray and pray.


However I strongly suggest you guys stop talking about shooting any LE's.

Talking about shooting home invaders dressed as an LE is one thing. But shooting an LE because he legally entered your home against your wishes. That's another. Let's get the distinctions straight.

filefish
04-27-2006, 12:20 PM
well for home defence i have a 9mmloaded with hollopoints prety uselss against body armor, my pump shot ggun loaded with slugs would put you down but you would get back up eventualy. keep in mind if all goes well I will NEVER draw a wepon on anyone.

Jeff Rambo
04-27-2006, 12:25 PM
This crap never ends. If you guys prefer to Cop-bash rather than discuss firearms, here is a quick tutorial for you:
#1 - Request that your membership here be removed.
#2 - Goto www.godaddy.com, register a domain name.
#3 - Find a web host.
#4 - Point the domain name to the web host.
#5 - Find someone capable of installing your own bulletin board.
#6 - Start telling your fellow cop-bashing friends about your new site.
#7 - Don't let the door hit you own your way out.

... Thread closed.

blacklisted
04-27-2006, 12:30 PM
In after the lock. :cool:

blacklisted
04-27-2006, 12:32 PM
Now you guys are advocating killing cops in the performance of their duties?

A big +1 for so called, law abiding gun owners across America.

It depends on their so-called "duties". If their "duty" is to rob you in the middle of the night for no reason, then sure. If they are acting on a call from a neighbor or something, no way.

Personally, there is too much to lose and I woudn't do so under any but the most desperate of circumstances.

Jeff Rambo
04-27-2006, 12:33 PM
In after the lock. :cool:

Bah! I knew I forgot to do something. See what happens when you stay up until 0500 fondling your first AR build?

RRangel
04-27-2006, 7:01 PM
I'll tell you what? If people here can't have a civil discussion then there will be no discussion.

Remember that you need to stay on topic. If you don't have anything productive to add don't bother. We're all adults here.

If things get out of hand remember that if you stir the pot you will be held accountable.