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View Full Version : Revolver speedloader legalities


Donkeypunch0420
08-01-2010, 10:43 AM
Hi Guys,

I was wondering if carrying speedloaders in a car (loaded) is the same as carrying a loaded pistol magazine? Thanks in advance.

paul0660
08-01-2010, 10:51 AM
Yes, and nothing wrong with either.

MasterYong
08-01-2010, 11:04 AM
I don't understand the question.

I carry loaded mags in my car all the time... There are laws regarding this now? I don't think so...

kermit315
08-01-2010, 11:08 AM
It is a rider to a gang enforcement law. If engaged in gang activity loaded mag equals loaded gun. Otherwise, its not a problem

Donkeypunch0420
08-01-2010, 11:14 AM
Wow, so I can carry a gun a loaded magazines/speedloaders as long as the gun itself isn't loaded? Sorry, this is news to me (albeit very good news). Guess I heard some FUD. Thanks

paul0660
08-01-2010, 11:17 AM
Wow, so I can carry a gun a loaded magazines/speedloaders as long as the gun itself isn't loaded?

Please be more clear about your scenario.

Donkeypunch0420
08-01-2010, 11:23 AM
I apologize for the misunderstanding. I guess my question should have been: Is it legal to have a pistol/revolver in the trunk of your car. And in a separate container, loaded magazines/speedloaders?

CSACANNONEER
08-01-2010, 11:26 AM
I apologize for the misunderstanding. I guess my question should have been: Is it legal to have a pistol/revolver in the trunk of your car. And in a separate container, loaded magazines/speedloaders?

Sure. It's also legal to have them in the same container. It's also perfectly legal but, not adviseable, to have an unloaded handgun in plain sight on the seat next to you with a loaded mag or speedloader next to it. This is legal in Ca. But again, it is not advisable. Also, it would not be legal on a Federal level when passing through GFSZs.

paul0660
08-01-2010, 11:26 AM
You don't have to separate the ammo from the gun. They can both be in a locked trunk, or a locked container (lockbox) in the passenger compartment. The glove compartment or utility box are not ok to lock them in.

There is an urban legend opinion which is no doubt true in some cases that some cops are not aware that this is legal, and can give you a hard time for it.

paul0660
08-01-2010, 11:28 AM
Also, it would not be legal on a Federal level when passing through GFSZs.

Pistols have to be locked up in a GFSZ on a state level as well.

CSACANNONEER
08-01-2010, 11:34 AM
Pistols have to be locked up in a GFSZ on a state level as well.

I realize that but, I like to stress that this is a Federal law. I get tired of people thinking that all of the gun laws which we have to follow are only California laws. People need to remember that many gun laws are Federal laws and apply no matter what state you are in.

paul0660
08-01-2010, 11:35 AM
True, true.

pullnshoot25
08-01-2010, 11:57 AM
See the FAQ in my sig line

MasterYong
08-01-2010, 12:23 PM
Man, this site REALLY needs a search feature!

Better yet, someone should make one of those Google search tools in case the forum's search feature turns out to be unsatisfactory for some. Ooooooh! I know! We could have FAQs!!!

:)

OleCuss
08-01-2010, 2:58 PM
Relatively new to the forum. Best way to encourage the use of FAQ's and the Wiki is to give them links when they ask questions which are well addressed by the Wiki and the FAQ's.

And seriously, if you are mostly interested in the fora and set your favorites/bookmarks optimally for that - you'll never see the Wiki and/or the FAQs again. It'd be nice if there were links at the top of the page like there are for the AW and related charts.

The search function is not worth all that much because there are so many threads which relate to the most popular questions that it is easy to get lost and not to find the information which is sought. The other day I tried for about 45 minutes to find a particular thread I remembered as nicely addressing a newbie question but despite quite a number of searches I never did find that thread.

Rossi357
08-01-2010, 3:58 PM
You can conceal a speedy loader, because it isn't part of your weapon. A full mag is considered part of a weapon, so it's not a good idea to conceal it.

CalNRA
08-01-2010, 4:07 PM
A full mag is considered part of a weapon, so it's not a good idea to conceal it.

doesn't that only apply when UOCing?

nn3453
08-01-2010, 4:23 PM
You can conceal a speedy loader, because it isn't part of your weapon. A full mag is considered part of a weapon, so it's not a good idea to conceal it.

There is no difference between a speed loader and a full mag that is not inserted into the gun as far as the OPs original question goes.

paul0660
08-01-2010, 4:33 PM
A full mag is considered part of a weapon, so it's not a good idea to conceal it.

Give us some case law or a PC on that Rossi. Or at least that a gunstore counter guy said it.

Decoligny
08-01-2010, 5:10 PM
There is no difference between a speed loader and a full mag that is not inserted into the gun as far as the OPs original question goes.

There is a definite difference. And it depends upon how the mag/speed loader is carried.

Speed Loader may be carried concealed with a firearm that is exposed, no repurcussions.

Magazine carried concealed in the presense of an exposed firearm = 12025 violation per "People v. Hale".

Decoligny
08-01-2010, 5:14 PM
Give us some case law or a PC on that Rossi. Or at least that a gunstore counter guy said it.

THE PEOPLE, PLAINTIFF AND RESPONDENT,
v.
CHARLES ANDREW HALE, DEFENDANT AND APPELLANT

Superior Court of Los Angeles County, No. A516323, August J. Goebel, Judge.

Paul A. Doyle, Jr., under appointment by the Court of Appeal, for Defendant and Appellant.

Evelle J. Younger, Attorney General, Jack R. Winkler, Chief Assistant Attorney General, S. Clark Moore, Assistant Attorney General, and Edward T. Fogel, Jr., Deputy Attorney General, for Plaintiff and Respondent.

Opinion by Fleming, J., with Roth, P. J., and Compton, J., concurring.

Fleming

[43 CalApp3d Page 355]

Charles Andrew Hale appeals the judgment (order granting probation) entered on his plea of guilty to possession of amphetamine. (Health & Saf. Code, ? 11350.) Hale contends an illegal search of his automobile tainted the evidence on which his conviction was based.

The facts, viewed in the light most favorable to the judgment, show that on the afternoon of 12 March 1973 Los Angeles County Deputy Sheriff Price, on patrol in San Dimas, stopped an automobile driven by Hale to warn him of a defective brake light. As Price approached the automobile he saw Hale's hand resting on the center console between the front bucket seats. An automatic pistol lay on the front seat only a few inches from Hale's hand. Fearing that Hale might use the pistol, Price drew his service revolver and ordered Hale to take his hand away from the pistol and get out of the automobile. He then gave Hale a pat-down search, which revealed no weapons. At about that time Deputy Sheriff Brown arrived on the scene and spoke with Hale, and Price understood Brown to say that Hale had previously been arrested for possession of a weapon.*fn1

While Brown detained Hale, Price entered Hale's automobile to examine the pistol, and in so doing he discovered the pistol lacked an ammunition clip. Inside the automobile Price saw a hunting knife with a 6-inch blade wedged between the driver's seat and the center console, a bayonet with a 12-inch blade protruding beneath the seat, and a dagger-like letter opener above the sun visor. Suspecting that an ammunition clip might be readily available nearby for use with the pistol, and desiring to make certain the pistol could not be used as a weapon when he returned it, Price searched the immediate area of the front seat. Underneath the ashtray of the center console he found one .380 caliber cartridge of the type used in the pistol as well as a vial containing white double-scored tablets which Price recognized as "mini-bennies" (the amphetamine that provided the basis for the prosecution). This is the search challenged here as illegal and unconstitutional.

On the facts of the case we conclude that Officer Price had reasonable cause to search the front seat of Hale's automobile and that consequently his discovery of contraband was an incident of a lawful search.

[43 CalApp3d Page 356]

The facts known to the officer at the time of the search gave him reasonable cause to suspect Hale was committing a crime, viz. unlicensed carrying of a firearm concealed in a vehicle (Pen. Code, ? 12025*fn2). Only partial concealment of a firearm is required. (People v. Koehn, 25 Cal. App. 3d 799, 802 [102 Cal. Rptr. 102]; People v. Tarkington, 273 Cal. App. 2d 466, 469 [78 Cal. Rptr. 149]; People v. Linden, 185 Cal. App. 2d 752, 757 [8 Cal. Rptr. 640].) One portion of the automatic pistol, the housing and barrel, was visible, and it was reasonable for the officer to suspect concealment nearby of the remaining portion of the firearm, the automatic clip and ammunition. (See Green v. State (Okla.Crim.) 489 P.2d 768.) A firearm disassembled into two or more parts, can nevertheless constitute an operable weapon within the meaning of the Dangerous Weapons Control Law. (People v. Ekberg, 94 Cal. App. 2d 613, 616-617 [211 P.2d 316]; see also, State v. Ware (Fla.App.) 253 So.2d 145.)

"The carrying of concealed firearms is prohibited as a means of preventing physical harm to persons other than the offender." (People v. Jurado, 25 Cal. App. 3d 1027, 1032 [102 Cal. Rptr. 498].) In our opinion concealment of an essential component of a visible weapon, when done in such a fashion as to make the weapon readily available for use as a firearm, presents a threat to public order comparable to concealment of the entire firearm and falls within the prohibition of section 12025. In the light of the bizarre arsenal of weaponry Hale had installed around the driver's seat of his automobile, Officer Price had reasonable cause to suspect that a clip and ammunition for the automatic pistol might be hidden close at hand and to make a search for them.

Apart from any specific Penal Code violation, the search was justified as a natural incident of the officer's right to search for weapons when he has reasonable grounds to believe a criminal suspect is "armed and presently dangerous." (Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 24, 27, 30 [20 L.Ed.2d 889, 907-908, 909, 911, 88 S.Ct. 1868]; People v. Superior Court (Simon), 7 Cal. 3d 186, 203 [101 Cal. Rptr. 837, 496 P.2d 1205].) The totality of the circumstances, the array of odd and deadly weapons stored about the driver's seat of an automobile by one reported to have been previously arrested on a weapons charge, warranted Officer Price in concluding that during his confrontation with Hale, his safety and the safety of others required a
[43 CalApp3d Page 357]
search of the area within the immediate reach of the driver to assure that an automatic clip and ammunition were not readily available for use with the pistol.

The judgment is affirmed.

Disposition

The judgment is affirmed.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opinion Footnotes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*fn1 Price later learned that Brown had actually said he once arrested Hale on some type of traffic warrant when Hale came to the station to inquire about serial numbers on a gun. However, we must accept the facts as Price reasonably and in good faith understood them at the time of search. (Burke v. Superior Court, 39 Cal. App. 3d 28, 32-33 [113 Cal. Rptr. 801].)

*fn2 Section 12025: "Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, any person who carries concealed upon his person or concealed within any vehicle which is under his control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person without having a license to carry such firearm as provided in this chapter is guilty of a misdemeanor, and if he has been convicted previously of any felony or of any crime made punishable by this chapter, is guilty of a felony."

Cokebottle
08-01-2010, 5:21 PM
I apologize for the misunderstanding. I guess my question should have been: Is it legal to have a pistol/revolver in the trunk of your car. And in a separate container, loaded magazines/speedloaders?
It is legal to have an unloaded pistol in a locked container sitting in your lap, with loaded mags/speedloaders in the same locked container, or resting on the seat next to you.

There is NO requirement that the gun be locked in the trunk, and there is no requirement that the ammo be physically separated from the gun's location, as long as it is not loaded.

Rossi357
08-01-2010, 5:21 PM
There is no difference between a speed loader and a full mag that is not inserted into the gun as far as the OPs original question goes.

https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AZRgaEwQBTArZGM5ajdzNWtfMTM3Z3B4OWdrZ2Q&hl=en

California Penal Code 12025

Can I conceal the magazine if the gun is openly in a holster?

No, the magazine is an integral part of the gun and can not be concealed when openly carrying a firearm.

This is the difference.

Rossi357
08-01-2010, 5:54 PM
Give us some case law or a PC on that Rossi. Or at least that a gunstore counter guy said it.

LOL, I never quote gun store owners. I educate them.
See post #23

smallshot13
08-02-2010, 4:01 PM
"The carrying of concealed firearms is prohibited as a means of preventing physical harm to persons other than the offender." (People v. Jurado, 25 Cal. App. 3d 1027, 1032 [102 Cal. Rptr. 498].) In our opinion concealment of an essential component of a visible weapon, when done in such a fashion as to make the weapon readily available for use as a firearm, presents a threat to public order comparable to concealment of the entire firearm and falls within the prohibition of section 12025. In the light of the bizarre arsenal of weaponry Hale had installed around the driver's seat of his automobile, Officer Price had reasonable cause to suspect that a clip and ammunition for the automatic pistol might be hidden close at hand and to make a search for them.

This is absolutely freightening information, that seems to fly in the face of those extoling the legality of posessing an unconcealed, unloade weapon in a car, with a detached loaded magazine. If this ruling still stands, then it is clearly not legal to do so. Is there an official opinion on having an unloaded magazine in the gun to thwart the impact of this decision?

stix213
08-02-2010, 4:34 PM
One problem with transporting a handgun openly in a vehicle outside a locked container is the CA attorney general's website implies you can only transport in a locked container. I would expect harassment and arrest by any LEO who has read the official state attorney general's website regarding legal firearms transportation if you transport a handgun openly in a vehicle regardless of legality.

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/travel.php


Traveling with Firearms in California

HANDGUNS

California Penal Code section 12025 does not prevent a citizen of the United States over 18 years of age who is not lawfully prohibited from firearm possession, and who resides or is temporarily in California, from transporting by motor vehicle any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person provided the firearm is unloaded and stored in a locked container.