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xLusi0n
04-25-2006, 3:52 AM
What is the legallity of owning a 7.5" barrel upper AR-15 reciever if I don't attach it to a lower reciever (but do own lower recievers).

Reason is I have a chance to bring back with me (from overseas) a really nice 7.5" upper...I want to keep it so when I go training out of state, I can slap it on my lower and train with it...but dissasemble it when I come back to CA.

shopkeep
04-25-2006, 4:00 AM
Unlike California AW laws there are "constructive" laws pertaining to NFA items. Because Short Barrel rifles are considered NFA items you may get into trouble simply for possessing the upper and a lower because it can become a complete rifle.

chris
04-25-2006, 4:11 AM
i have a 14 1/2 barrel and i'm bringing it back. but i do believe there is a 16" barrel length rule involved. as for the NFA i have to research it and see what i may have to do. also you can get a longer barrel and use it also. then again this is california it is probably illiegal to put a new barrel on an upper. so if anyone has any insight for this on the NFA rules please chime in.

bwiese
04-25-2006, 7:57 AM
You'd likely have to also get a special import permit, possibly from State Dept (?) to import or reimport the barrel. Barrels are regulated import/export items.

It's probably not worth the hassle given the reasonable price of domestic uppers.

Furthermore, aside from Fed constructive possession issues, CA has codified constructive possession of SBR parts.

Mssr. Eleganté
04-25-2006, 12:29 PM
Reason is I have a chance to bring back with me (from overseas) a really nice 7.5" upper...I want to keep it so when I go training out of state, I can slap it on my lower and train with it...but dissasemble it when I come back to CA.

Constructive possession issues aside, you can't legally assemble a short barrelled rifle to use when you travel out of California and then dissassemble it when you come back to California, because SBR's are regulated by Federal law.
The SBR would have to be registered under the National Firearms Act, and that will only happen if you live in an NFA friendly state. You would then also have to file a form with BATFE every time you wanted to take the SBR across state lines.

grammaton76
04-25-2006, 1:03 PM
What is the legallity of owning a 7.5" barrel upper AR-15 reciever if I don't attach it to a lower reciever (but do own lower recievers).

Reason is I have a chance to bring back with me (from overseas) a really nice 7.5" upper...I want to keep it so when I go training out of state, I can slap it on my lower and train with it...but dissasemble it when I come back to CA.

Well, if I were you, I would go ahead and bring it back, but ship it to a friend or family member without any lowers for storage until you get all the legal issues hashed out. This resolves the constructive possession issues, and it's what I'm doing with the FCGs from all the AK kits I've ordered (and am ordering). If you're not living in CA permanently, just wait 'till you move out, then pick it up from whoever's storing it and SBR it.

sszeto
04-25-2006, 5:09 PM
What if, I mean if he's bring back the 7.5" upper for his AR pistol?

ohsmily
04-25-2006, 5:12 PM
i have a 14 1/2 barrel and i'm bringing it back. but i do believe there is a 16" barrel length rule involved. as for the NFA i have to research it and see what i may have to do. also you can get a longer barrel and use it also. then again this is california it is probably illiegal to put a new barrel on an upper. so if anyone has any insight for this on the NFA rules please chime in.

Man, you are all over the place...no, it is not "illiegal" or illegal to put a new barrel on an upper receiver. It is easy to do and there is no law against it (provided it is over 16" in length by itself or with a permanently attached muzzle device). Second, there is NO WAY you will get a permit for a short barreled rifle in CA. Not allowed.

bwiese
04-25-2006, 5:15 PM
What if, I mean if he's bring back the 7.5" upper for his AR pistol?

There are probably a few AR pistols reg'd as AWs in California. This guy prob doesn't have one.

And we've gone thru, in other threads, the variety of reasons why an AR pistol is hard to build in CA without going thru lotsa hoops (even off-list non-AW).

One key issue is that he likely shouldn't import arms parts into US without a permit. He may be able to get more info from BATF, but some of this stuff is controlled by State Dept too ("ITAR" regulations).

brando
04-25-2006, 5:31 PM
Yeah, you're screwed either way - I'd avoid bringing it back.

EBWhite
04-25-2006, 6:54 PM
I have heard of people shipping uppers and not registered gun parts for friends back in Europe. I do not think their is any problem with it as long as it is not considered a gun (ie. lower receiver)

Parts are parts, barrel is a barrel and unless it is a gun---Remember, we have a free trade economy and it is nobodys business what parts you buy unless they are the part considered to be the gun by the ATF.

Remember they have to prove you made the SBR before you can get it trouble. Last time I checked you were innocent until proven guilty. It is sad how bad this government has gotten.

Mssr. Eleganté
04-25-2006, 7:21 PM
I have heard of people shipping uppers and not registered gun parts for friends back in Europe. I do not think their is any problem with it as long as it is not considered a gun (ie. lower receiver)

True, there is no problem if you don't get caught. It's the same with drugs. You can bring in as much as you like if you don't get caught. It is illegal however.

Parts are parts, barrel is a barrel and unless it is a gun---Remember, we have a free trade economy and it is nobodys business what parts you buy unless they are the part considered to be the gun by the ATF.

When you try to bring items across the border it is the business of US Customs what parts you buy. If you disagree you can try a little experiment. Travel to another country and then come back through Customs. When they ask you if you have anything to declare just tell them "None of your business".


Remember they have to prove you made the SBR before you can get it trouble. Last time I checked you were innocent until proven guilty. It is sad how bad this government has gotten.

Not true! They have to prove that you had dominion or control over both the upper and the lower and had no way to legally use the upper on another lower ( like one manufactured as a pistol ).

You are giving advice to people based on the way the law should be, not on the way it really is.

xLusi0n
04-25-2006, 7:36 PM
I'm not travelling through ordinary means (nothing illegal) but I won't be subject to the same customs issues.

However, it seems it's more hassle than it's worth to use it / register it / etc... so I'm going to scrap the idea.

EBWhite
04-25-2006, 7:53 PM
True, there is no problem if you don't get caught. It's the same with drugs. You can bring in as much as you like if you don't get caught. It is illegal however.

When you try to bring items across the border it is the business of US Customs what parts you buy. If you disagree you can try a little experiment. Travel to another country and then come back through Customs. When they ask you if you have anything to declare just tell them "None of your business".

Not true! They have to prove that you had dominion or control over both the upper and the lower and had no way to legally use the upper on another lower ( like one manufactured as a pistol ).

You are giving advice to people based on the way the law should be, not on the way it really is.

Sure, you can have anything you want just dont get caught(not always a smart choice)- What im talking about it unregulated goods.
I was speaking about buying a barrel, parts kit and such (not regulated) and having it shipped from a person in europe to yourself. I have heard more than a few people doing this and without any problems . I have never read a law calling it illegal.

So you have a pistol lower, you can have as many SBR uppers but without one you cannot have any. Makes no sense, there has been a lot of talk about it around here---anyone ever been prosecuted under this law?

chris
04-25-2006, 9:40 PM
i do have to say the person who originated this thread is where i'am. check the news. i have been on another forum they suggest the same thing. so more research is needed. although what he proposes on doing is much more drastic than some of us that are here. we have done this out of operational needs. ie they do not provide us with what we need. so in closing i think he purchased it. i have my upper and bought from the states with a letter from my command.

i'm just glad to see all this help on a situation that may arise. i have asked about the $200 tax stamp and if it is a pain in the arse to get.

Mssr. Eleganté
04-25-2006, 9:55 PM
What im talking about it unregulated goods.
I was speaking about buying a barrel, parts kit and such (not regulated) and having it shipped from a person in europe to yourself. I have heard more than a few people doing this and without any problems . I have never read a law calling it illegal.

Have you read Title 27 Part 47 Section 41(c) of the Code of Federal Regulations? It says that minor firearm components and parts with a value less than $100 can be imported without a permit. But barrels, cylinders, receivers, frames or complete breech mechanisms require an import permit. The fact that you've never read a law calling something illegal doesn't mean you should be giving out advice on following the law.

So you have a pistol lower, you can have as many SBR uppers but without one you cannot have any. Makes no sense, there has been a lot of talk about it around here---anyone ever been prosecuted under this law?

Check out the US Supreme Court case U.S. v. Thompson/Center Arms for the ruling that says you can have a short barrel if you have a firearm that can be legally configured using it.

And check out U.S. v. Drasen, (7th Cir. 1988) for just one example of somebody being busted for having an unregistered SBR even though they just had unassembled parts.

As you are probably starting to figure out, gun laws don't always make sense. So you can't always use common sense to try and stay out of trouble. If you could, then folks wouldn't need to come here to ask for advice. Although I agree with you that these laws are not "right" and "don't make sense", I don't think it is right to give advice to folks here based on my own personal feelings.

If you want to add your two cents to these legal discussions you could always start your replies with...

"I'm not sure about what the law says on this subject, but this is the way I think it ought to be..."

Most likely everybody here would agree with your thoughts and nobody would be mislead about what is legal or not.

elsolo
04-25-2006, 11:53 PM
Well, if I were you, I would go ahead and bring it back, but ship it to a friend or family member without any lowers for storage until you get all the legal issues hashed out. This resolves the constructive possession issues, and it's what I'm doing with the FCGs from all the AK kits I've ordered (and am ordering). If you're not living in CA permanently, just wait 'till you move out, then pick it up from whoever's storing it and SBR it.

Is there a reason why you advocate illegally importing a (short) barrel?
Please don't encourage others to violate federal law on this forum, thanks.

xenophobe
04-26-2006, 12:26 AM
I have heard of people shipping uppers and not registered gun parts for friends back in Europe. I do not think their is any problem with it as long as it is not considered a gun (ie. lower receiver)


In most of Europe the lower receiver is not the critical part of a firearm, it is usually the barrel that is considered the restricted part. So sending a complete upper to someone in Russia or Germany for example, would be getting them into a LOT of trouble.

MicronuT
04-26-2006, 9:48 PM
There are probably a few AR pistols reg'd as AWs in California. This guy prob doesn't have one.

And we've gone thru, in other threads, the variety of reasons why an AR pistol is hard to build in CA without going thru lotsa hoops (even off-list non-AW).

One key issue is that he likely shouldn't import arms parts into US without a permit. He may be able to get more info from BATF, but some of this stuff is controlled by State Dept too ("ITAR" regulations).

yea but if he does/does not have a registered pistol there still isnt a problem.. all parts like this are ... parts. just not legal to put together on lower here in cali whether registered or not.. (since nfa items do not apply here) but the pistol is something else.. if .. he has it