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tenpercentfirearms
07-31-2010, 2:40 PM
Ok, so Becky and Gina are all screwed up on what documents work for DROS and what documents work for the 4473 for residency. So here is the cheat sheet I just made for making their life easier. I also see no reason why I can't hand this cheat sheet to a customer too if they are not quite sure how they are going to prove what they need to prove.

Ten Percent Firearms California Proof of Residency Key
Federal 4473 Requirements
If the picture ID address does not match the 4473 address, then you must obtain
• another valid, government-issued document showing the transferee’s residence address. This alternate documentation should be recorded in question 20.b., with issuing authority and type of identification presented.
1. Do not take a copy of the document. Simply write down the document issuing authority and type in 20.b.
2. It must be a government issued document. Non-municipal utility bills and DMV brown change of address cards do not apply. The document should be printed or typed and not handwritten.
3. This is required for any firearm transaction whether long gun, handgun or other firearm.
Common examples are: CA vehicle registration, CA DMV printout, CCW, government utilities, and any printed hunting license documents.
CA DROS Requirements
All handgun DROS must be accompanied by a copy of proof of residency.
• Utility Bill from within the past three months that bears on its face the individual’s name and 4473 address. Utility Bill means a statement of charges for providing service to the individual’s residence by either physical or a telemetric connection to a non-mobile, fixed antenna reception device (satellite cable).
• Residential Lease that bears the individual’s name and 4473 address and is signed and dated.
• Property Deed that bears the individual’s name and 4473 address.
• Current, Government-issued License, Permit, or Registration, other than a CA DL or CA ID (DMV Printout will not work), that has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The document must bear the individual’s name and 4473 address.
1. We must retain a copy of this document.
2. It must be valid and have an expiration date. DOUBLE CHECK THE DATES. No “Over Due Notice” warnings.
3. Make sure you can see the address for the utility provided on the bill.
4. If it is a government issued document, it can apply for both Federal 4473 and CA DROS requirements. (example: CCW, CA Vehicle Registration, Hunting Licenses) If not, then you might need to satisfy both. (Example: a DMV printout would still require a utility bill.)
4473 Legal Alien and Nonimmigrant Alien Requirements
Legal Aliens and Nonimmigrant Aliens are no longer required to have three consecutive months of utility bills.
• Nonimmigrant Aliens must provide a current hunting license or permit.
1. We must retain copies of the hunting license. On the 4473, simply write down the hunting license state of issuance and expiration date in 20.c.


Now this is my document, so if you don't like it, that is fine. However, I would like some proof reading and some possible more examples of documents you might regularly use for the 4473 Requirement. And then please feel free to use it yourself if you want.

Also the reason I don't retain copies for the Federal requirements are two fold. First, if it isn't necessary, then I am not going to do it because every sheet of paper I don't have to store, that is good. Second, my ATF agent told me specifically not to keep copies. I do what Jan White tells me to.

Enjoy!

ke6guj
07-31-2010, 2:56 PM
maybe note that some utility bills are .gov issued, perhaps by a city-owned utility, and they might be acceptable for #2


2. It must be a government issued document. Utility bills, DMV brown change of address cards, and hunting licenses do not apply. The document should be printed or typed and not handwritten.

VegasND
07-31-2010, 6:33 PM
Thanks.

Anything that help clarify the morass of firearms law is appreciated.

Fjold
07-31-2010, 7:27 PM
In the handgun ID issue; I don't see a car registration listed there. Am I just missing it or is it not valid any longer?

tenpercentfirearms
07-31-2010, 10:37 PM
maybe note that some utility bills are .gov issued, perhaps by a city-owned utility, and they might be acceptable for #2

I do state government utilities under "common examples".

In the handgun ID issue; I don't see a car registration listed there. Am I just missing it or is it not valid any longer?

You missed it under #4 there. "CA Vehicle Registration"

Thanks guys.

CenterX
07-31-2010, 10:57 PM
Complicatedly clear. Job Well Done!

What about tho other contention item - gun lock.

I have an email from CA DOJ that told me I can walk in with a CA DOJ cable lock and the FFL can verify applicability, note it in the comments section of the on-line dros form as a manner of affidavit. Yet, this has not been widely accepted across the state, i.e. a receipt within 30 days is the trump card - or it must be purchased at the time of the start of paperwork.

Any ideas on a solution?

tenpercentfirearms
07-31-2010, 11:18 PM
Complicatedly clear. Job Well Done!

What about tho other contention item - gun lock.

I have an email from CA DOJ that told me I can walk in with a CA DOJ cable lock and the FFL can verify applicability, note it in the comments section of the on-line dros form as a manner of affidavit. Yet, this has not been widely accepted across the state, i.e. a receipt within 30 days is the trump card - or it must be purchased at the time of the start of paperwork.

Any ideas on a solution?

The gun lock is not a complicated issue at our shop. Either your gun comes with one or we give you one. It really is that simple. If you want to help make sure our box of locks never dwindles so low we would have to buy some and sell them again, then bring in your locks you aren't using and donate them to us. Preferably don't do it the same day you are buying a gun that needs a lock.

And that is why I don't need a gun lock cheat sheet. It is too simple. If other dealers are having a hard time with it, I would suggest it might be due to the fact they enjoy selling $10 or $20 cable locks.

kemasa
08-01-2010, 11:44 AM
There are a couple of issues in your document.

First, is somewhat questionable as to what is "correct", "DROSes". I think it should just be "DROS".

Property Deed that bears the indvidual's

individual is misspelled.

If you want to be picky, the 4473 requirements should also include "other" firearms instead of just handguns or long guns, or to be clear, for any firearm transaction.

I forgot to mention: thanks Wes for sharing that, it is a nice document.

tenpercentfirearms
08-01-2010, 10:08 PM
There are a couple of issues in your document.

First, is somewhat questionable as to what is "correct", "DROSes". I think it should just be "DROS".

Property Deed that bears the indvidual's

individual is misspelled.

If you want to be picky, the 4473 requirements should also include "other" firearms instead of just handguns or long guns, or to be clear, for any firearm transaction.

I forgot to mention: thanks Wes for sharing that, it is a nice document.

I'll fix those when I get a chance. Thanks. This really is more of internal document that I just wanted to share, but clearly it will help to have it look good since it might get passed around like my A&D Excel sheet.

C.W.M.V.
08-01-2010, 11:26 PM
Looks good but is this really an issue? Ive never had anyone who had a problem with using their vehicle registration.

tenpercentfirearms
08-02-2010, 8:10 AM
Looks good but is this really an issue? Ive never had anyone who had a problem with using their vehicle registration.

Yes it is an issue when you own a gun shop. Not everyone has vehicle registration. When something as easy as vehicle registration is not available, then they will try and bring you all sorts of invalid documents. If you don't train your employees and/or don't have a quick paper you can hand to people, you might end up taking the wrong documents and come audit time, that is not a good thing.

C.W.M.V.
08-02-2010, 8:14 AM
That's what I meant, I've never had or heard of a customer who didn't have registration.
Regardless good stuff.

BANG BANG
08-02-2010, 8:44 AM
I heard that there is no clear PC that states that the actual address on a CA driver's license and the 2nd proof of residency need to match each other?

As long as they both have CA addresses? I heard from a gun shop that they run into this when a person has a P.O. Box as an address on a DL and a residence address on a car registration for example?

kemasa
08-02-2010, 9:20 AM
There are people who are married who their vehicle in only in one person's name, which is the wrong person when it comes to buying a firearm since otherwise I would not know about it :-). Some younger people still have the vehicle in their parents name. The same is true with utility bills. It can be difficult at times to get the needed paperwork.

tenpercentfirearms
08-02-2010, 9:47 AM
I heard that there is no clear PC that states that the actual address on a CA driver's license and the 2nd proof of residency need to match each other?

As long as they both have CA addresses? I heard from a gun shop that they run into this when a person has a P.O. Box as an address on a DL and a residence address on a car registration for example?

There is no state requirement that your DL address match your secondary proof of residency as often they don't match.

Federally, if the DL doesn't match, then you need a government issued document that does match your current address.

BANG BANG
08-02-2010, 11:47 AM
There is no state requirement that your DL address match your secondary proof of residency as often they don't match.

Federally, if the DL doesn't match, then you need a government issued document that does match your current address.

i see thanks. so either way you will need 2 that match

tenpercentfirearms
08-02-2010, 12:06 PM
i see thanks. so either way you will need 2 that match

What you need is an address on your 4473. If that address does not match your ID, then you need something else to prove you actually live there for the feds. That would be a government issued document. If your ID matches your 4473, then you need nothing else.

For buying handgun, no matter what your ID says, you must have proof of residency that matches your 4473 address. A government issued document may not suffice for this requirement, but it is possible. That is where you look at the second set of requirements on my cheat sheet.

This is why I have a cheat sheet. It is not as clear as some people think.

gunshack
08-03-2010, 8:19 AM
Thanks Wes, good stuff. I hope you don't mind, but I edited your original document for clarity, continuity and succinctness for my own use.

I was planning on putting together a cheat sheet with a list of qualifying documents, and whether they satisfy the Feds, the State or both. Has anyone put together a list of qualifying documents they would be willing to share?

kemasa
08-03-2010, 10:03 AM
How about posting what changes you made?

gunshack
08-03-2010, 6:41 PM
If it's ok with Wes I will.

CA Gun Laws Suck
08-06-2010, 9:15 PM
I think you did a good job. There are always issues with customers having an old address on their ID and needing additional document and having what is needed can be confusing for newer people working in shops. NICE WORK!

tenpercentfirearms
08-06-2010, 11:23 PM
If it's ok with Wes I will.

I have zero problems with it. I only posted it to share with you guys to make all of our lives easier.

A&A FIREARMS
08-09-2010, 1:37 PM
Great info Wes.
I was told the same.

Bryan.40
08-12-2010, 6:53 PM
Well if I have an insurance policy for my vehicle does that count?

Bryan.40
08-12-2010, 6:59 PM
And if some of these accounts such as credit cards or bank statements are maintained online? Will a print out suffice or will I have to request statements from my bank?

tenpercentfirearms
08-12-2010, 11:19 PM
Well if I have an insurance policy for my vehicle does that count?

Nope. Not in any of the above situations. Not one.

And if some of these accounts such as credit cards or bank statements are maintained online? Will a print out suffice or will I have to request statements from my bank?

I would accept a print out where it is relevant. Credit cards and bank statements are only valid for proving 90 days of continuous residency if you are legal alien or a nonimmigrant alien. They prove nothing for federal proof of residency or State handgun DROS.

Now a printout of your PG&E bill for State handgun DROS I accept.

psssniper
08-13-2010, 8:07 AM
All handgun DROSes must be accompanied by a copy of a SECONDARY proof of residency.

• Current, Government-issued License, Permit, or Registration, other than a CA DL or CA ID that has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The document must bear the individual’s name and 4473 address.

Would a CCW from another state meet this requirement?

ke6guj
08-13-2010, 9:47 AM
From the actual regulations on the matter, http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/chapter4.pdf

d. "Other evidence of residency as permitted by the Department of Justice" means either of the following:
1. A current, government-issued (city, county, special district, state, or federal) license, permit, or registration, other than a California Driver License or California Identification Card, that has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The license, permit, or registration must bear the individual's name and either of the following:
A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form.
B. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.

I don't see why a CCW issued by another state would not fall under that catagory. The regulations do not appear to limit "state" to "state of California" only, but it would probably fall under the the FFL's perogative.

Colt-45
08-17-2010, 1:31 PM
For a handgun purchase would these pass?

Scenario 1: CA ID, W-2, HSC

Scenario 2: CA ID, rent/lease contract(does it have to be notarized?), HSC

Am I good or what would I be missing?

jtmkinsd
08-17-2010, 5:31 PM
Either one is acceptable, as long as the addresses match (no the rent/lease doesn't have to be notarized). If the address on the rent/lease doesn't match what's on your license then you would have to go with the 1st option, since the W-2 is a government issued document.

Colt-45
08-17-2010, 6:09 PM
:eek::eek:

Thanks, getting a utility bill was going to be a pain in the ***.

tenpercentfirearms
08-17-2010, 9:17 PM
For a handgun purchase would these pass?

Scenario 1: CA ID, W-2, HSC

Scenario 2: CA ID, rent/lease contract(does it have to be notarized?), HSC

Am I good or what would I be missing?

I don't think Scenario 1 would work because the W-2 does not have a period of validity or an expiration date.

Scenario 2 is fine.

Colt-45
08-17-2010, 9:21 PM
does the contract have to be notarized?

tenpercentfirearms
08-18-2010, 6:25 AM
does the contract have to be notarized?

I don't believe the penal code says so, but the CA DOJ BOF website mentions something about it. The website is not law.

Mammoth
08-18-2010, 6:41 AM
You might want to take note that F&G also issues licenses with a printed address directly from state. I bring this up because you mention big game tags, which presumably are acceptable because it's an official government document with a printed address...in contrast to the typical "fill in the blank" license available from license agents.

While these haven't been very common in the past, F&G is working towards a new online license and tag purchase system so they will become more common going forward and it would seem like they would get the same consideration as a big game tag.

tenpercentfirearms
08-18-2010, 9:50 PM
You might want to take note that F&G also issues licenses with a printed address directly from state. I bring this up because you mention big game tags, which presumably are acceptable because it's an official government document with a printed address...in contrast to the typical "fill in the blank" license available from license agents.

While these haven't been very common in the past, F&G is working towards a new online license and tag purchase system so they will become more common going forward and it would seem like they would get the same consideration as a big game tag.

I did think about lifetime tags that seem to be issued by the state. I have never actually seen one in the shop though. And that is interesting with the new automated system coming up. They will be printed out, but I wonder if the customer still has to write in their name.

Mammoth
08-19-2010, 8:28 AM
I sent you an email (adress registered here on Calguns) with a scan of my current year state issued license. This license was purchased via fax from F&G.

I believe that this license format will be the same as that which comes out of the online purchasing system. It's a single sheet of paper with no carbon backup since the state already has everything they need for a re-issue. It's really a much more efficient way than the paper licenses handed out by agents.

Anyway, just trying to help. This seems like it should satisfy the requirement...if so, it's worth having informed employees and it looks like that's your goal.

Look forward to stopping by your shop some time when I'm in the area on business.

xanavi
08-20-2010, 5:29 PM
I got a question to anyone who can answer...
It says that list above that for Legal aliens, We need additional proof for 90 days residency - and listed are the examples.

Earlier today I went to a local gun shop, was trying to buy a AR15 stripped lower, So i brought in my DMV car registration as proof, but was asked if I was a Citizen or not, Of course I said no, coz im a legal alien. Now comes the problem - I needed a document like a valid utility bill that needs to be a electric bill or water, something that needs to be tied up to the property I live at, Which I dont have,
My question is- on that list it says, I can use bank statements, credit card bills etc...witch I do have, to support proof of 90 days continous residency. Is that so? coz the local gun shop said no.

My situation:
Legal Alien here in San Diego, My current driver's license has a different address than my residence - updated address with the DMV, have my car registration with my current address but no utility bill such as water or electric. And yes I have lived here more than 90 days.
Can I still buy the lower and pass the DROS? or do I have to really get some bill under my name and wait 90 days?

Thanks in advance

ke6guj
08-20-2010, 5:39 PM
I got a question to anyone who can answer...
It says that list above that for Legal aliens, We need additional proof for 90 days residency - and listed are the examples.

Earlier today I went to a local gun shop, was trying to buy a AR15 stripped lower, So i brought in my DMV car registration as proof, but was asked if I was a Citizen or not, Of course I said no, coz im a legal alien. Now comes the problem - I needed a document like a valid utility bill that needs to be a electric bill or water, something that needs to be tied up to the property I live at, Which I dont have,
My question is- on that list it says, I can use bank statements, credit card bills etc...witch I do have, to support proof of 90 days continous residency. Is that so? coz the local gun shop said no.
bank statements are acceptable to prove the 90-days continuous. Stated so in this newsletter, http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2008-11.pdf and on the actual 4473, http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2008-11.pdf . The gun shop appears to be incorrect on this. Print ouf the newletter and 4473, highlight the pertinant section and show it to him.



My situation:
Legal Alien here in San Diego, My current driver's license has a different address than my residence - updated address with the DMV, have my car registration with my current address but no utility bill such as water or electric. And yes I have lived here more than 90 days.
Can I still buy the lower and pass the DROS? or do I have to really get some bill under my name and wait 90 days?

Thanks in advancelets see, CA needs just a CA ID/DL to purchase a long gun, so you need to comply with the federal requirements.

CA ID/DL plus a .gov-issued document iwth the current address (car registration would work). but since you are an alien, you also need the 90-days paperwork in which bank/CC statements with your current addres should be acceptable..

xanavi
08-20-2010, 5:45 PM
Thanks a lot ke6guj for clearing that out. I was frustated coz I already got an AR15 complete upper and waiting 90 days is just an eternity. lol

Mark in Eureka
09-20-2010, 12:20 AM
W-2's are not an issued government form. My employees fill out a w-4 when hired and at the end of the year my accountant prepares our W-2's and then I issue them out before the end of January.

tenpercentfirearms
09-20-2010, 6:58 AM
W-2's are not an issued government form. My employees fill out a w-4 when hired and at the end of the year my accountant prepares our W-2's and then I issue them out before the end of January.

Good point. My W-2s are a government issued document though because they come from the County of Kern. So they could or couldn't be a government issued document depending on who you work for.

Also, I guess if you worked for the government your pay stub would also be a government issued document. Nice.

Lead Waster
10-05-2010, 3:28 PM
I've been asked to bring in the 3 months of consecutive utility bills. The problem is that all our utility bills (phone, electric, cell phone, etc) are all ELECTRONICALLY delivered and automatically paid using online bill-pay!! Kind of throws a wrench in the works!

ke6guj
10-05-2010, 3:34 PM
I've been asked to bring in the 3 months of consecutive utility bills. The problem is that all our utility bills (phone, electric, cell phone, etc) are all ELECTRONICALLY delivered and automatically paid using online bill-pay!! Kind of throws a wrench in the works!are you an alien? AFAIK, it is only aliens, and only certain types, that have to do the "3 months" deal. If this does apply to you, you should be able ot go online and print out those utility bills and use the printouts. they don't have to be on "official utility letterhead" to be utility bills.

tenpercentfirearms
10-05-2010, 10:59 PM
are you an alien? AFAIK, it is only aliens, and only certain types, that have to do the "3 months" deal. If this does apply to you, you should be able ot go online and print out those utility bills and use the printouts. they don't have to be on "official utility letterhead" to be utility bills.

What he said.

justhavinfun
10-06-2010, 5:20 PM
So what if your last name does not match on any of the above described documents?

Recently I changed my last name before getting married. My drivers license and Social Security reflect my new last name as does the court order changing it. Would the Social Security card still attached to the mailer or the court order work?

Unfortunately I have not yet changed the registration on my vehicle but every other form of documentation I could use has refused to change my last name on the account except the bank and credit card. How about any of the other documents and the court order?

Thanks.

QQQ
10-06-2010, 6:06 PM
I'm fairly certain that CA DL with different address + stamped brown DMV change of address card + rental agreement is sufficient for handgun purchases- at least at some of the stores I've seen.

Or else someone who's renting a place (no utilities in his/her name) and without a car in his/her name is SOL. That's a good chunk of any urban population.

tenpercentfirearms
10-06-2010, 9:34 PM
I'm fairly certain that CA DL with different address + stamped brown DMV change of address card + rental agreement is sufficient for handgun purchases- at least at some of the stores I've seen.

The stamped brown DMV card does you no good. First, it does nothing for the state. Second, the Feds don't accept it because anyone could write in it. Third, the rental agreement would work for the state for a handgun, but it wouldn't work for the Feds for proof of residency. You would need a government issued document.

Now will some FFLs accept it? Yes. Will some ATF auditors probably accept it? I am not sure. I know mine won't.

Stormtrooperthunder
10-16-2010, 1:10 PM
Would my C&R license count as a secondary proof of residency?

jtmkinsd
10-16-2010, 1:20 PM
Would my C&R license count as a secondary proof of residency?

Yes...we use it often for proof of address

tenpercentfirearms
10-16-2010, 4:16 PM
Would my C&R license count as a secondary proof of residency?

It should count for both federal and state POR since it has an expiration date and is a government issued document.

erikdjs
10-21-2010, 2:30 PM
I haven't used it before but I'd assume a Real Estate license would qualify for the secondary - it's issued by CA dept of Real Estate has address and expiration listed on it.

Yes/no?

ke6guj
10-21-2010, 2:41 PM
I don't see why it wouldn't work.

I've seen people use their Car Salesman license as POR. Funny how an ID or DL issued by DMV is not acceptable as POR, but that same agency can issue a Salesman license (which looks almost identical to the ID/DL) that is acceptable as POR.

erikdjs
10-21-2010, 2:45 PM
I don't see why it wouldn't work.

I've seen people use their Car Salesman license as POR. Funny how an ID or DL issued by DMV is not acceptable as POR, but that same agency can issue a Salesman license (which looks almost identical to the ID/DL) that is acceptable as POR.

Now that I'm actually looking at my license I find I was mistaken. It does NOT have my address - it has my Office address. Guess that's a no go.

oversteerdawg
11-02-2010, 11:40 AM
Hmm...now that I think about it, my next purchase may be problematic. Here's my scenario:

The reg on my car is in someone else's name and I moved in with my gf and I don't have any utilities or rental agreements in my name. I'm not sure what I can do.

How do I prove residency? The only thing I have going to this address are bank statements.

ke6guj
11-02-2010, 11:52 AM
get a rental/lease agreement from your GF to you.

oversteerdawg
11-02-2010, 12:03 PM
get a rental/lease agreement from your GF to you.

So CDL, rental agreement from her to me and a dmv print out with my new address and I'm good?

tenpercentfirearms
11-02-2010, 10:04 PM
So CDL, rental agreement from her to me and a dmv print out with my new address and I'm good?

That sounds good.

EBR Works
04-13-2011, 9:49 AM
Thanks for sharing this Wes

hvengel
04-14-2011, 1:14 PM
Seems like an FCC radio operators license should also work as secondary proof of address/residency. It is an official government issued document that has name, address and issue and expiration date. It can also be quickly verified by going to the FCC web site as well which is something that can not be done with most of these secondary documents.

tenpercentfirearms
05-31-2011, 11:59 AM
As soon as class is out for the day, I am going to make some calls and ask about the new automated Fish and Game system. I know from having the ALS myself that I could change their address no problem, but it will be intersesting to see what the DOJ and ATF say about it.

I mean really during an audit do you think they are going to argue it? I could see where the old licenses and the DMV browncards are hand written, but this is a printed government license with period of validity.

I'll keep you updated.

tenpercentfirearms
05-31-2011, 1:01 PM
I just talked to Rene from CA DOJ and she believes that the printed hunting licenses are acceptable for state handgun proof of residency.

I then called Jan from ATF and she also agree that it is a government issued document for federal 4473 purposes.

I would say start using them boys and girls! Time to edit the cheat sheet.

TestaRossa
07-12-2011, 1:56 PM
Ok so I'm a permanent resident(alien), I have a CA DL with my name and current address, and credit card statements with my name and current address. To fulfill for CA DROS Requirements, I still need another form of proof correct?
The problem is I currently don't have a car registration under my name, nor utility bills. Any suggestions?

tenpercentfirearms
07-12-2011, 6:48 PM
Ok so I'm a permanent resident(alien), I have a CA DL with my name and current address, and credit card statements with my name and current address. To fulfill for CA DROS Requirements, I still need another form of proof correct?
The problem is I currently don't have a car registration under my name, nor utility bills. Any suggestions?

What kind of firearm are you buying? Handgun or long gun?

For long guns, if you have three continuous months of credit card bills, you are good.

For handguns, you would still need a government issued document with expiration date or a hard wire utility bill from the last 90 days. Basically you need something from this list. http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs.php#33G

TestaRossa
07-12-2011, 7:49 PM
What kind of firearm are you buying? Handgun or long gun?

For long guns, if you have three continuous months of credit card bills, you are good.

For handguns, you would still need a government issued document with expiration date or a hard wire utility bill from the last 90 days. Basically you need something from this list. http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs.php#33G


It's a handgun. Would an AAA membership card work?

Sent from my DROID X2

Rudolf the Red
07-12-2011, 9:35 PM
I had a customer use an unusual document for his 4473 requirement.

His California Brand Registration card. As in branding cattle. Gov't issued with address printed on a wallet card.

tenpercentfirearms
07-12-2011, 10:33 PM
It's a handgun. Would an AAA membership card work?

Sent from my DROID X2

Is AAA a hard wired utility company or a government agency?

TestaRossa
07-12-2011, 10:42 PM
Is AAA a hard wired utility company or a government agency?

Don't think so but I've heard other people say it works, maybe I was mistaken. Guess the easiest way is to write up a rental lease agreement with my parents then.

tenpercentfirearms
07-12-2011, 11:40 PM
Don't think so but I've heard other people say it works, maybe I was mistaken. Guess the easiest way is to write up a rental lease agreement with my parents then.

You were probably not mistaken. People probably mistakenly thought AAA would work. I wouldn't accept it.

TestaRossa
07-13-2011, 12:51 AM
You were probably not mistaken. People probably mistakenly thought AAA would work. I wouldn't accept it.

Well all in all thanks for clearing that up man!:thumbsup:

EBR Works
07-14-2011, 3:15 PM
I had a client yesterday for a rifle transfer with a DL that did not have his current address and an auto reg that was expired by 1 day. He gave me an LA city DWP bill for POR. LA DWP is a govt utility right?

kemasa
07-14-2011, 3:20 PM
As far as I know, the LA DWP is a government own utility.

EBR Works
07-14-2011, 3:24 PM
Thanks!

almaster666
07-15-2011, 8:39 AM
Great thread, thanks for all the info!

EBR Works
07-18-2011, 9:58 AM
I received a handgun for a 21 year old buyer. Upon contacting him he stated that his DL does not have his current residence address but he has the updated paper temp DL along with the original. He also does not have any other documentation for POR.

Am I correct that I can accept the original DL along with the paper temp? Is this the "DMV printout" mentioned in the cheat sheet? Am I correct that he can get his auto registration updated with his name and he will be good to go?

Clarify please.

tenpercentfirearms
07-18-2011, 10:29 AM
I received a handgun for a 21 year old buyer. Upon contacting him he stated that his DL does not have his current residence address but he has the updated paper temp DL along with the original. He also does not have any other documentation for POR.

It depends on what the "paper temp" is. If the "paper temp" is the DMV brown card, it isn't good for much. My ATF auditor says not to accept them, so I don't. The brown cards definitely don't have an expiration date, so they won't work for the state for sure.

For the handgun, you need a government issued document with a period of validity or an expiration date for the state. If the "paper temp" is a new temporary license with an expiration date and the address matches, that will work for both. However, you must have a hard copy of his DL that is still valid. Usually the DMV won't issue paper copies and let you keep your hard copy DL, but it is possible.

Am I correct that I can accept the original DL along with the paper temp?It depends on what a "paper temp" is. There is not enough information.

Is this the "DMV printout" mentioned in the cheat sheet?Unlikely. The DMV printout is only good for the feds. It is a printout of your driver's license information. Name, address, and driving record. It has a date it was printed, but not a period of validity or an expiration date. It is only good for the federal requirement and not the state handgun requirement.

Am I correct that he can get his auto registration updated with his name and he will be good to go?

Clarify please.Yes vehicle registration that is valid and has a current address on it is valid for everything. I was told that the DMV will reprint your registration for free on an address change.

EBR Works
07-18-2011, 10:43 AM
Ok, verified that he has the original DL and the "brown" card. I told him to go to the DMV and get a new temporary license with an expiration date and retain the original unexpired one with photo. He plans to get his car moved into his name so he will have registration as POR.

tenpercentfirearms
07-18-2011, 10:49 AM
Ok, verified that he has the original DL and the "brown" card. I told him to go to the DMV and get a new temporary license with an expiration date and retain the original unexpired one with photo.I wouldn't tell people to do this as it might not work. The DMV doesn't just issue new licenses for the heck of it, that is why they do the brown card. Also, if they hole punch his old license or take it, then he cannot purchase the handgun anymore until his new DL comes in. And even then he still doesn't have POR for the handgun.

He plans to get his car moved into his name so he will have registration as POR.This is the easiest and smartest move to make. The registration satisfies both state and federal requirements and then what his hard copy DL says is inconsequential.

EBR Works
07-18-2011, 11:07 AM
I wouldn't tell people to do this as it might not work. The DMV doesn't just issue new licenses for the heck of it, that is why they do the brown card. Also, if they hole punch his old license or take it, then he cannot purchase the handgun anymore until his new DL comes in. And even then he still doesn't have POR for the handgun.

This is the easiest and smartest move to make. The registration satisfies both state and federal requirements and then what his hard copy DL says is inconsequential.

So, let me understand. If he comes in with the the original DL with old address, brown card with current address and auto reg with current address, he is GTG for the handgun purchase?

tenpercentfirearms
07-18-2011, 11:10 AM
So, let me understand. If he comes in with the the original DL with old address, brown card with current address and auto reg with current address, he is GTG for the handgun purchase?

Almost. Completely ignore all brown cards. They are good for nothing.

All he needs is a valid vehicle registration with current address on it. That is a government issued document for the feds and it is a government issued document with expiration date for the state (handgun). With the registration, what his DL says is irrelevant because the registration trumps the DL for all residency requirements.

He still needs a valid, hard copy DL though.

This one is kind of simple, are you reading the cheat sheet?

EBR Works
07-18-2011, 11:12 AM
This one is kind of simple, are you reading the cheat sheet?

Yes, not simple enough for me I guess. :D

Thanks!

tenpercentfirearms
07-18-2011, 11:23 AM
Yes, not simple enough for me I guess. :D

Thanks!

This has motivated me to update the original cheat sheet though. I will work on it in the next few days.

EBR Works
07-18-2011, 11:26 AM
You always have to design something for the stupidest person in the crowd.. :D

Glad to be of service!

NDFMF
07-22-2011, 2:31 PM
Here's an interesting scenario I'm encountering. My customer (and friend) wants to buy a handgun and she has a valid DL with PO Box on it, valid vehicle registration with same PO box on it, and valid CA ID with 4473 residence address on it. Is she good to go? Does CADOJ care if the address you submit for the DROS is a PO Box? If so, then the way I see it is:

CA ID with 4473 Address = ATF satisfied

CA DL with PO Box + CA Vehicle Reg with PO Box = CA DOJ Satisfied

NDFMF
07-22-2011, 2:35 PM
Nevermind. Answered my own question when I re-read the cheat sheet for the nine-thousandth time. Secondary proof of residency MUST match 4473 address. Curses.

BTW, Wes, thanks for sharing this. It's been really helpful, and I refer to it all the time. I'm looking forward to the updated version.

EBR Works, you are not alone!

EBR Works
07-22-2011, 3:08 PM
when I re-read the cheat sheet for the nine-thousandth time.

Got you beat. I'm up to 10,793 times now. :D

tenpercentfirearms
07-22-2011, 6:15 PM
Nevermind. Answered my own question when I re-read the cheat sheet for the nine-thousandth time. Secondary proof of residency MUST match 4473 address. Curses.

BTW, Wes, thanks for sharing this. It's been really helpful, and I refer to it all the time. I'm looking forward to the updated version.

EBR Works, you are not alone!

Yes! Finally, the cheat sheet works! :D

kemasa
07-22-2011, 6:20 PM
Yes, it works, but I have a question. If the address on the ID does not match the current address, are two forms of residency required? It is unclear from the CA DOJ website and the cheat sheet does not say.

Amilcar
07-23-2011, 2:42 AM
Hello, I'm looking to make my first handgun purchase soon. I see that satellite cable is listed as second proof. Can a regular cable bill(time warner) also be used? And if it is, I would only need to show a bill for one month from the most recent 3 months? I am a citizen. Thank you.

tenpercentfirearms
07-23-2011, 10:29 AM
Yes, it works, but I have a question. If the address on the ID does not match the current address, are two forms of residency required? It is unclear from the CA DOJ website and the cheat sheet does not say.

I never really looked for that answer. I always assumed one proof satisfied as many as it possibly could and that is how I do it. I do not believe the state requires proof when your DL and address do not match. They only require proof for handguns. The feds only require proof for address mismatch. I know of no law that says you can't use one document for both.

Hello, I'm looking to make my first handgun purchase soon. I see that satellite cable is listed as second proof. Can a regular cable bill(time warner) also be used? And if it is, I would only need to show a bill for one month from the most recent 3 months? I am a citizen. Thank you.

Regular cable bill is a hard wired utility. Yes. You only need one bill within the last 90 days as a US citizen.

Amilcar
07-23-2011, 1:39 PM
Regular cable bill is a hard wired utility. Yes. You only need one bill within the last 90 days as a US citizen.

Thank you.

mrwilson99
09-15-2011, 9:44 PM
Okay, here's my situation.

I am a legal alien (greencard holder), I have the following:

1. CA DL with matching address to my car registration

2. Handgun safety card

I will be going through a PPT, what else do I need seeing that I don't pay my utilities bills (I live with my inlaws and don't pay the mortgage or util bills).

I do have my bank and credit card statements going to the same address, would that work?

Driver license + Car Registration + HSC + Bank Statement = Works? All this is under the same address.

EDIT: I also have my tax forms for the last 3-4 years if that can be used.

Let me know if the above is an acceptable form for doing a PPT (I am buying from a member here).

Thanks!

tenpercentfirearms
09-15-2011, 9:49 PM
Okay, here's my situation.

I am a legal alien (greencard holder), I have the following:

1. CA DL with matching address to my car registration

2. Handgun safety card

I will be going through a PPT, what else do I need seeing that I don't pay my utilities bills (I live with my inlaws and don't pay the mortgage or util bills).

I do have my bank and credit card statements going to the same address, would that work?

Driver license + Car Registration + HSC + Bank Statement = Works? All this is under the same address.

EDIT: I also have my tax forms for the last 3-4 years if that can be used.

Let me know if the above is an acceptable form for doing a PPT (I am buying from a member here).

Thanks!

Ten Percent Firearms California Proof of Residency Key
• Acceptable documentation to prove 90-day continuous residency must be original documentation (e.g. utility bills, current bank statements, rent receipts, mortgage payments, lease agreements, personal property tax bills, documents issued by Federal, State, or local government agencies, first-class mail issued by government agency, insurance policies, or bill with current address or major credit card bill).
Also don't forget your resident alien card.

mrwilson99
09-15-2011, 9:54 PM
Thanks Wes! I am ALLLLL set then!

I have my online printed statements, good enough? I went paperless to save the environment, I hope I don't get punished for that :(

tenpercentfirearms
09-16-2011, 6:45 AM
Thanks Wes! I am ALLLLL set then!

I have my online printed statements, good enough? I went paperless to save the environment, I hope I don't get punished for that :(

They would be good enough for me. Just remember to bring your last three consecutive.

MadRiverArms
10-09-2011, 10:03 AM
If you are accepting a W-2 for the 4473 requirements what do you use for the issuing authority? The business that the person is employed by?

-MRA

ETA: I skipped page 2 before asking that. Having read page 2 I see your inclusion of a W-2 as meeting the 4473 requirements is limited to a W-2 from a government agency. You should note that limiting factor in the cheat sheet in the next revision.

kemasa
10-20-2011, 3:56 PM
With respect to the CA requirements, I had an interesting question come up. You need to second document, but what if the person has a CA ID, in addition to their CA DL. Both are basically the same, but are different documents as one is ID only and the other is a driver license.

tenpercentfirearms
10-20-2011, 5:12 PM
With respect to the CA requirements, I had an interesting question come up. You need to second document, but what if the person has a CA ID, in addition to their CA DL. Both are basically the same, but are different documents as one is ID only and the other is a driver license.

We addressed this somewhere recently. The PC specifically states a second document other than a ID or DL. So no you could not use your ID to prove your residency for your DL for a handgun. Yes, it would work for the Federal requirements, but not state handgun. Go look up the PC on what is acceptable and you will see it.

kemasa
10-21-2011, 12:13 PM
Thanks, what I saw it seems to be a bit unclear since it is a different document (ID vs. DL).

oddjob
10-21-2011, 9:34 PM
How exact must the address be on the secondary proof?? In my case my car registration had the street misspelled by a letter. The FFL wanted additional proof. I had another car registration, but was wondering about others having the same issue?? I even noticed my name not being spelled correctly on the car registration....just didn't pay attention to it. Is this a problem too??

thanks

tenpercentfirearms
10-21-2011, 10:03 PM
How exact must the address be on the secondary proof?? In my case my car registration had the street misspelled by a letter. The FFL wanted additional proof. I had another car registration, but was wondering about others having the same issue?? I even noticed my name not being spelled correctly on the car registration....just didn't pay attention to it. Is this a problem too??

thanks

It could be. If they don't match, they don't match. I might overlook such things, but might get hit in an audit. If a dealer wants you to get specific, just try to comply. It is a gray area that would be handled wisely as better safe than sorry.

lagann
11-01-2011, 7:44 PM
So, everything like car registration, bills, etc are under my mother's name.

The only thing i can get is the "Residential Lease that bears the individual’s name and 4473 address and is signed and dated."

By 4473 form...i am assuming that is the form that i fill out before buying a firearm. Correct?

The person that helped me at Golden Gate Guns, told me that i needed the residential lease notarized. Is that correct?

Couldnt pick up my lower today :(

tenpercentfirearms
11-02-2011, 7:11 AM
So, everything like car registration, bills, etc are under my mother's name.

The only thing i can get is the "Residential Lease that bears the individual’s name and 4473 address and is signed and dated."

By 4473 form...i am assuming that is the form that i fill out before buying a firearm. Correct?

The person that helped me at Golden Gate Guns, told me that i needed the residential lease notarized. Is that correct?

Couldnt pick up my lower today :(

A residential lease does not have to be notarized, but the CA DOJ website states it does. The PC does not.

Further, a residential lease would not be sufficient proof of residency for a AR15 lower receiver unless you DROSed it as a handgun. A regular AR15 receiver that is listed as a long gun on the DROS only needs a government issued document if your current ID/DL address does not match the address you put on the 4473.

Go get a one day fishing license and you are good, but I am sure the shop will look at the CA DOJ FAQ and say "nope that doesn't work either" even though by phone they say it does.

kemasa
11-02-2011, 9:47 AM
Get a HAM license. It costs $0-$15 for the test and is good for 10 years, plus it is a government document. Other licenses and permits would also be possible.

lagann
11-02-2011, 3:33 PM
A residential lease does not have to be notarized, but the CA DOJ website states it does. The PC does not.

Further, a residential lease would not be sufficient proof of residency for a AR15 lower receiver unless you DROSed it as a handgun. A regular AR15 receiver that is listed as a long gun on the DROS only needs a government issued document if your current ID/DL address does not match the address you put on the 4473.

Go get a one day fishing license and you are good, but I am sure the shop will look at the CA DOJ FAQ and say "nope that doesn't work either" even though by phone they say it does.

I never DROsed the Ar lower as a handgun. I dont even qualify as i have not taken the handgun test....

Golden Gate Guns insists that i get a secondary proof of residency....thats where i got nothing besides my driver's license.

Golden Gate wants me to get a residential lease, which i just got and go notarize it, which is still a pain in the butt.

I wish someone would go educate them! Not only is California a pain in the butt with stupid laws....now california shops are making their own "laws".....:facepalm:

tenpercentfirearms
11-02-2011, 10:32 PM
I never DROsed the Ar lower as a handgun. I dont even qualify as i have not taken the handgun test....

Golden Gate Guns insists that i get a secondary proof of residency....thats where i got nothing besides my driver's license.

Golden Gate wants me to get a residential lease, which i just got and go notarize it, which is still a pain in the butt.

I wish someone would go educate them! Not only is California a pain in the butt with stupid laws....now california shops are making their own "laws".....:facepalm:

Does your DL/ID address match your 4473 address? If so, no additional proof of residency is required. Demand they show you where it states you are required to provide additional proof of residency or request them to pay for the notarization of your rental agreement that in no way satisfies Federal law whether you actually need to provide it because your address is different or in this case where you address is the same and nothing is required.

If all else fails, stop using shops that don't know what they are doing.

lagann
11-03-2011, 7:59 AM
You are correct in all your assumptions. My 4473 does match my D/L's address. I have never had a problem before in this matter.

I wish i could take your advice in using shops that DO know what they are doing...but i live in SF and its hard to find a good shop to do ppt's. At the time jackson arms system was down and city arms was not doing any ppts due to space issues....both which have been great near my area. Tabor's would have refused to ppt anything that has to do with black rifle...so the only shop was golden gate guns unless i wanted to drive an hr away....

In want to cry at the sad state of SF gun stores...

TXDARKHORSE361
11-23-2011, 5:17 AM
Hi there this is my first post even though I have been a member for a little bit, first off a big thank you to CGN for helping to keep my butt out of trouble as I am not a CA resident (active military). I am however a responsible gun owner so I want to make sure I am in full compliance and know the laws for where I reside so I was referred here by another CGN member who is a friend of mine.

I just wanted to add my $.02 on my experience DROS'ing a pistol here in CA.

I am a Texas resident stationed here in CA and what they required from me was my TX issued DL, my military ID, a copy of my orders stating that I was in fact stationed here in CA, and since my car is registered here in CA that made it pretty simple.

However two friends of mine also out of state residents stationed here had a bit more trouble due to the fact that their vehicles were registered in their home state and were at the time living in the barracks so they did not have any utility bills. The shop we DROS'd them at told them that if they got a fishing license that would suffice, however were not specific at the time they told them and would not accept the day pass so they had to go back and get a yearly fishing license and that did the trick.

If this helps at least one person then it makes it worth it and thank you again for all the help you've all contributed to myself.

Infantry H2
11-23-2011, 6:37 AM
I didn't see military permanent change of station orders bringing an individual to CA and I believe TDY for over 90 days, I was in Georgia for 91 days so I bought a LC9 at the PX for 368 no tax and Govt Top Secret clearance is all I needed for background check.

mej16489
11-23-2011, 10:54 AM
I didn't see military permanent change of station orders bringing an individual to CA and I believe TDY for over 90 days, I was in Georgia for 91 days so I bought a LC9 at the PX for 368 no tax and Govt Top Secret clearance is all I needed for background check.

.gov clearances won't show on a NICS check.

tenpercentfirearms
08-30-2012, 2:04 PM
I finally found the time and updated my cheat sheet. Let me know if there need to be any new fixes. (see post #1)

Note the only controversial item I can think of is there is no apparent requirement to keep a copy of the non-immigrant alien's hunting license. However, after consulting with my auditor, she thought it was a good idea and I agreed.

Sakiri
09-01-2012, 2:26 PM
I finally found the time and updated my cheat sheet. Let me know if there need to be any new fixes. (see post #1)

Note the only controversial item I can think of is there is no apparent requirement to keep a copy of the non-immigrant alien's hunting license. However, after consulting with my auditor, she thought it was a good idea and I agreed.

Not a bad list. Though it still makes me angry that I basically have to go to the DMV and wait about 6 weeks to get a brand new state ID card because I literally have 0 government documents that have my current address on it outside stuff from social security.

I cannot legally drive, never will be able to legally drive, and therefore will never have a vehicle registration. Noticed a guy on page 1 says he's never seen a customer without one. Well, I'm a customer without one.

No utilities are in my name. Never will be either. Since my residential address is NOT the same as the one on my lease(because I don't feel I should have to replace something that's only ever used to verify age when I've had it about 1 year before moving again and I expect to move next summer as well) I'm pretty much forced to pony up another 25 bucks.

Because for some reason I don't live in this state. -_-

tenpercentfirearms
09-02-2012, 8:28 AM
Not a bad list. Though it still makes me angry that I basically have to go to the DMV and wait about 6 weeks to get a brand new state ID card because I literally have 0 government documents that have my current address on it outside stuff from social security.

I cannot legally drive, never will be able to legally drive, and therefore will never have a vehicle registration. Noticed a guy on page 1 says he's never seen a customer without one. Well, I'm a customer without one.

No utilities are in my name. Never will be either. Since my residential address is NOT the same as the one on my lease(because I don't feel I should have to replace something that's only ever used to verify age when I've had it about 1 year before moving again and I expect to move next summer as well) I'm pretty much forced to pony up another 25 bucks.

Because for some reason I don't live in this state. -_-

Your ID gets you started, but weren't you wanting a handgun? You still need a second document. I would recommend a fishing license.

Sakiri
09-02-2012, 1:47 PM
Your ID gets you started, but weren't you wanting a handgun? You still need a second document. I would recommend a fishing license.

If the ID matches that on the form, I shouldn't need a second document.

Hence, would have to have my ID reissued.

I'm also trying to track down how to get a replacement for my voter registration card because that *does* match my residential address. I also have a bicycle license that was issued by Arcata PD, but I don't think that works. -_-

All because I can't drive. -_-

kemasa
09-02-2012, 2:25 PM
CA, for stupid reasons, based on what I was told by the CA DOJ, does not accept a CA ID/DL as proof of residency. I was told it is because some people live in NV, but work in CA and need a CA DL (driver), so that does not prove CA residency. The ID/DL should have their NV address, which then of course would not prove a CA residence, but I don't think that they get that.

So, it is not a matter of a second document for handguns, it is a primary document for residency. If your ID address does not match your residency, then for the Feds you need a government document, otherwise CA accepts various documents.

A bicycle license which expires and which is issued by a government agency (police) should be fine.

Sakiri
09-02-2012, 7:16 PM
CA, for stupid reasons, based on what I was told by the CA DOJ, does not accept a CA ID/DL as proof of residency. I was told it is because some people live in NV, but work in CA and need a CA DL (driver), so that does not prove CA residency. The ID/DL should have their NV address, which then of course would not prove a CA residence, but I don't think that they get that.

So, it is not a matter of a second document for handguns, it is a primary document for residency. If your ID address does not match your residency, then for the Feds you need a government document, otherwise CA accepts various documents.

A bicycle license which expires and which is issued by a government agency (police) should be fine.


I'm not entirely sure how the <censored> that's possible, for a license to not be proof of residency.

When I moved here I was told I could not get an ID card until I established residency. I was told to wait 6 months after I move here. I got my ID card 1/31/2011. I was registered to vote 3 days later. I was probably told that because of voter registration. Think the voter registration required 6 months of residency. Been a while. In my last two states, a state ID card or DL is proof of residency.

I don't see why anyone from out of state would need a DL from here.

Fun fact: until this past Feb I had 3 state ID cards that hadn't expired yet. When I'd move to a new state, they never took the old one when I applied for a new one. As a result, I had Pennsylvania, Washington and California. The PA one has expired, and the Washington one doesn't until 2014.

><

ke6guj
09-02-2012, 8:28 PM
I'm not entirely sure how the <censored> that's possible, for a license to not be proof of residency.<because when the legislature passed this law,

26845. (a) No handgun may be delivered unless the purchaser,
transferee, or person being loaned the firearm presents documentation
indicating that the person is a California resident.
(b) Satisfactory documentation shall include a utility bill from
within the last three months, a residential lease, a property deed,
or military permanent duty station orders indicating assignment
within this state, or other evidence of residency as permitted by the
Department of Justice.
(c) The firearms dealer shall retain a photocopy of the
documentation as proof of compliance with this requirement.

they did not list CA DL/ID as acceptable documentation. They did allow CADOJ to permit other forms of residency proof.

For that purpose, CADOJ promulgated the following regulations to deal with PoR.

11 CCR § 4045

Cal. Admin. Code tit. 11, § 4045

Barclays Official California Code of Regulations Currentness
Title 11. Law
Division 5. Firearms Regulations
Chapter 4. Evidence of Residency Documentation
§ 4045. Definitions and Requirements.


The following definitions and requirements apply to documents intended to serve as evidence of residency for the acquisition of a handgun pursuant to Penal Code section 26845:

a.1. “Utility bill” means a statement of charges for providing direct service to the individual's residence by either a physical connection (i.e., hard wired telephone or cable connection, or a water or gas pipeline connection), or a telemetric connection (i.e., satellite television or radio broadcast service) to a non-mobile, fixed antenna reception device.

2. The utility bill statement date must be within three months of the current date.

3. The utility bill must bear on its face the individual's name and either of the following:

A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form.

B. The individual's residential address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.

b.1. “Residential lease” means either of the following:

A. A signed and dated contract by which the individual (tenant) agrees to pay a specified monetary sum or provide other consideration for the right to occupy an abode for a specified period of time.

B. A signed and dated rental agreement by which the individual (tenant) agrees to pay a specified monetary sum or provide other consideration at fixed intervals for the right to occupy an abode.

2. The residential lease must bear the individual's name and either of the following:

A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the DROS form.

B. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.

c.1. “Property deed” means either of the following:

A. A valid deed of trust for the individual's property of current residence that identifies the individual as a grantee of the trust.

B. A valid Certificate of Title issued by a licensed title insurance company that identifies the individual as a title holder to his or her property of current residence.

2. The property deed must bear the individual's name and either of the following:

A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the DROS form.

B. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.

d. “Other evidence of residency as permitted by the Department of Justice” means either of the following:

1. A current, government-issued (city, county, special district, state, or federal) license, permit, or registration, other than a California Driver License or California Identification Card, that has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The license, permit, or registration must bear the individual's name and either of the following:

A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the DROS form.

B. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.

2. A valid peace officer credential issued by a California law enforcement agency to an active, reserve, or retired peace officer.

Note: Authority cited: Section 26845, Penal Code. Reference: Sections 26845 and 27550, Penal Code.

In the bolded section, you can see that they specifically excluded CA DL/ID as being acceptable as PoR.

Sakiri
09-02-2012, 10:26 PM
Ke6, I understand that's how the law is written.

I just don't understand how the bloody hell it *wouldn't* be. You have to live here to get one, no? I'm trying to figure out why they wanted a document that *wasn't* the DL/ID. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Then again, this is California. They're probably just doing it that way to screw with us. "HEY let's make it more annoying to deter them!!"

-_-

kemasa
09-03-2012, 11:42 AM
I'm not entirely sure how the <censored> that's possible, for a license to not be proof of residency.


That is the government.


I don't see why anyone from out of state would need a DL from here.


As i said, if you work as a driver in CA, but live in NV, you might need a CA DL.


Fun fact: until this past Feb I had 3 state ID cards that hadn't expired yet. When I'd move to a new state, they never took the old one when I applied for a new one. As a result, I had Pennsylvania, Washington and California. The PA one has expired, and the Washington one doesn't until 2014.


There is nothing wrong with having multiple IDs, unless you are doing it for illegal purposes. Are the addresses correct?

If you have a house in two different states, you might want to have an ID for both addresses, especially if you are a resident of both states.

Ke6, I understand that's how the law is written.

I just don't understand how the bloody hell it *wouldn't* be. You have to live here to get one, no? I'm trying to figure out why they wanted a document that *wasn't* the DL/ID. It just doesn't make sense to me.


The first mistake that you are making is in thinking that it should make sense. People have have multiple addresses in multiple states, so why shouldn't they be able to show that by means of an ID?

They assume, incorrectly, that if you have a recent utility bill that means that you live there, but you could actually be renting out the place and want to keep the utilities in your own name.

bishop2queen's6
09-04-2012, 6:37 PM
SO I went to Turners today to purchase a RIA 1911, and they wouldn't take a fishing license, credit card statement, or 3 months worth of bank statements along with my DL and HSC as proof of residency.

Manager told me it was corporate police that they can only take a house deed or a rental lease agreement.

kemasa
09-04-2012, 7:31 PM
The fishing license, assuming it was issued by the state, should have been ok. The Credit card statements and bank statements not so much.

bishop2queen's6
09-04-2012, 7:54 PM
The fishing license, assuming it was issued by the state, should have been ok. The Credit card statements and bank statements not so much.

It is a CA state annual license. It has my current address and issue and expiration date. It should have been OK. I went to Staples and paid $10 for a Residential Lease agreement and had my parents sign it. Hopefully that should work.

curvejunkie
09-08-2012, 9:54 PM
Kemasa, I called the DOJ on the state issued fish license and was told that it was not acceptable form. I argued it was issued by the state, had address, dl and all that on it but no go..... I am going to try again and call and ask and see what answer I get.

tenpercentfirearms
09-09-2012, 7:14 AM
Kemasa, I called the DOJ on the state issued fish license and was told that it was not acceptable form. I argued it was issued by the state, had address, dl and all that on it but no go..... I am going to try again and call and ask and see what answer I get.

I talked to an agent who said it was. ATF also told me it was. So I am using it.

kemasa
09-09-2012, 8:40 AM
Kemasa, I called the DOJ on the state issued fish license and was told that it was not acceptable form. I argued it was issued by the state, had address, dl and all that on it but no go..... I am going to try again and call and ask and see what answer I get.

Did they say why? It is a government document and has an expiration date on it. It might be that they are taking that view since it is actually based on the the CA ID/DL, as many documents are.

To be honest, it seems like they are making things up more and more recently.

ShootinXs
09-09-2012, 1:27 PM
To be honest, it seems like they are making things up more and more recently.[/QUOTE]


I have to agree , a recent call to them , with a simple question got me transferred twice and no answer to my question , seems it would be more efficient to return the call after clarification of said question. But instead make it up, to get you off the phone, and get back to the conversation you interupted of the shoe sale at the mall this past weekend. I'm ok with someone not being able to answer everything , but being rude and not willing to follow up with answers to Q's is uacceptable. As FFL's we are held to standards they need to be as well. Either the hunting license is part of the standard or not , it should not be so difficult , and as 10% put it he got it from his agent and I put much more weight in what the agent has to tell me than some De De De , behind a desk . Rant over .

EBR Works
10-17-2012, 4:30 PM
Would a voter registration card be acceptable if the client's DL does not match his home address?

tenpercentfirearms
10-18-2012, 8:31 AM
Would a voter registration card be acceptable if the client's DL does not match his home address?

Voter registration as a government issued document for the Federal requirement would work as long as it has their current address on it.

EBR Works
10-18-2012, 9:29 AM
Thanks Wes.

AmericasFirstFreedom
12-20-2013, 12:06 PM
From the actual regulations on the matter, http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/chapter4.pdf



I don't see why a CCW issued by another state would not fall under that catagory. The regulations do not appear to limit "state" to "state of California" only, but it would probably fall under the the FFL's perogative.

I had E-Mailed CA DOJ and asked for clarification. About a week later, I received a voicemail from DOJ, interetingly he did not leave a name but said he was from the Department of Justice, confirming that an out-of-state permit was acceptable as PoR, as long as it contained my current residence address; he did leave a call-back number. So, my CA DL containing my mailing address will be sufficient with an AZ or CT permit to purchase a pistol, after all.

tenpercentfirearms
12-21-2013, 6:21 AM
I had E-Mailed CA DOJ and asked for clarification. About a week later, I received a voicemail from DOJ, interetingly he did not leave a name but said he was from the Department of Justice, confirming that an out-of-state permit was acceptable as PoR, as long as it contained my current residence address; he did leave a call-back number. So, my CA DL containing my mailing address will be sufficient with an AZ or CT permit to purchase a pistol, after all.

If it is a current government document with an expiration date or a period of validity and it has your address on it, it satisfies the State for Handguns. No need to call them. It says it right there.

However, the only thing it does in California is verify proof of residency. It does not give you any other benefits like HSC exemption or CCW status.

gw74r
12-22-2013, 7:37 PM
Going back to the original checklist that Ten Percent posted (nice checklist by the way!) and the statement under the DOJ heading that the POR must be retained, I have been searching for the Penal Code or DOJ Dealer FAQ section that states what documents, other than the purchaser signed computer printed DROS, that must be retained by a Dealer. The way I read and interpret both the Dealer General FAQ #21 and PC 28215, is that the printed DROS is the only document to be retained for 3 years. Please let me know if I missed it somewhere.

gw74r
12-28-2013, 2:13 PM
Still wondering if anyone can provide some clarification on my question above?? Thanks for any input.

EBR Works
12-28-2013, 2:34 PM
If DOJ audits you, they are going to want to see the supporting copies of ID, POR, HSC affidavit, etc.

gw74r
12-29-2013, 8:05 AM
EBR, thanks for the reply. I have heard differing opinions on what DOJ wants, and what is legally required, which is why I am hoping someone can point out the Dealer FAQ or PC that clearly states a copy of the POR is required to be kept by the Dealer. I have searched for it but cannot find anything.

kemasa
12-29-2013, 10:30 AM
Here is the CA PC:


CA PC 26845. (a) No handgun may be delivered unless the purchaser,
transferee, or person being loaned the firearm presents documentation
indicating that the person is a California resident.
(b) Satisfactory documentation shall include a utility bill from
within the last three months, a residential lease, a property deed,
or military permanent duty station orders indicating assignment
within this state, or other evidence of residency as permitted by the
Department of Justice.
(c) The firearms dealer shall retain a photocopy of the
documentation as proof of compliance with this requirement.

gw74r
12-29-2013, 10:47 AM
Thank you Kemasa! I don't know how I missed that.

ke6guj
12-29-2013, 11:29 AM
Here is the CA PC:funny how the PC just says that they must retain a copy of the documentation but many dealers require you to bring the original documentation for them to copy, but will not allow you to bring a copy of your documentation to give to them.

I even had one FFL that would not accept a copy of my 03 for my POR, but wanted me to bring the original license. I was willing to give him my copy and sign it on the spot, but nope, he "needed" to copy the original and then have me sign his copy.:confused:

DVSmith
12-29-2013, 11:41 AM
What about an FCC license like an amateur radio license? They expire and have your address on them and are issued by the FCC.

kemasa
12-29-2013, 11:46 AM
I even had one FFL that would not accept a copy of my 03 for my POR, but wanted me to bring the original license. I was willing to give him my copy and sign it on the spot, but nope, he "needed" to copy the original and then have me sign his copy.:confused:

I wonder if they do that for other FFLs :-).

Unfortunately some people like to make things up to make it more difficult. I have some of my own rules, but it is to avoid problems, not just to give people a hard time.

tenpercentfirearms
12-31-2013, 10:12 AM
funny how the PC just says that they must retain a copy of the documentation but many dealers require you to bring the original documentation for them to copy, but will not allow you to bring a copy of your documentation to give to them.

I even had one FFL that would not accept a copy of my 03 for my POR, but wanted me to bring the original license. I was willing to give him my copy and sign it on the spot, but nope, he "needed" to copy the original and then have me sign his copy.:confused:

A copy is a copy. I am not about to bust someone's balls over something so stupid. Let's get this paperwork done and get a gun in your hands!

ugimports
01-01-2014, 9:43 AM
What about an FCC license like an amateur radio license? They expire and have your address on them and are issued by the FCC.

Should be good to go.

ontargetrange
01-01-2014, 11:25 AM
I talked to an agent who said it was. ATF also told me it was. So I am using it.

Wes,

I was audited by both agencies in July and they on multiple days said that the Hunting/Fishing license was not to be used at any time. One of the agents for ATF called their LA legal eagle and he made a "ruling" that it was not to be used.

DOJ said that since the ID was issued by someone other than a State agency it was not to be used --- forget the part that the terminal and paper is supplied by the State (dept of Wildlife, DFW) and can ONLY be done after registering with the State to be an "acting" agent for the State.

Kinda like Auto Club doing your Auto registration and licensing. But the DFW apparently does not count.

I would love for a bunch of us to push back hard on this issue. Calling Jason D. about it.

ECG_88
01-06-2014, 4:48 PM
How about a speeding ticket. Not the pink slip the cop hands you, but the thing thats mailed to you?

ugimports
01-06-2014, 5:18 PM
How about a speeding ticket. Not the pink slip the cop hands you, but the thing thats mailed to you?

Probably ok for ATF not DOJ. I don't think there's an expiration date on it.. there may be a due date, but not a period of validity...

Also will depend what it looks like .. I don't recall how the last speeding ticket I got looked. As long as it's from a court, e.g., county/state agency you're good to go with Feds.. no period of validity or expiration date then State no go..

that's the basic criteria if you're trying to meet both requirements.

kyo216
01-17-2014, 11:51 AM
From this link

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/resprf

It says hunting and fishing licenses are no longer accepted.

ugimports
01-17-2014, 2:16 PM
From this link

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/resprf

It says hunting and fishing licenses are no longer accepted.

FYI - that's the old link. Notice it says "Archive" above it:
Firearms > Archive > Proof of Residency

Current link is:
http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs#13G

wazafuzz
04-14-2014, 11:20 AM
I recently purchased a handgun at a local store. When I went to pick it up they denied me because they would not accept my retired Peace Officer Identification card as proof of residency.

I had previously purchased handguns from other dealers using my I.D. as proof, so I went to the CALDOJ website and found this:

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs#11G



14. What proof of residency are peace officers required to provide?
Peace officers, including reserve and retired peace officers, may present valid credentials issued by a California law enforcement agency in lieu of the other required residency documentation. This consideration is given to peace officers who do not want to provide documentation of their residence address for security reasons and who otherwise do not object to having their credentials copied by the firearms dealer for inclusion with the DROS record.

Apparently this is not very well known.
I have been unable to get this particular store to even acknowledge my emails regarding this.

I know a lot of people on this forum get their hackles up when it comes to law enforcement officers and what they perceive as "special treatment" but it is what it is.

mkasda
04-18-2014, 9:53 PM
If the buyer's CA drivers license address is not current, could they provide a DMV printout (H6 ?) to complete a rifle purchase?

Tyke8319
04-20-2014, 10:54 AM
Here is the CA PC:

Is there an implication here that a dealer must retain a "photocopy" of a D/L longer than 3 years?

I have been informed (during an audit) that the all supporting documents may be discarded after 3 years! Except, of course, for the 4473........

kemasa
04-20-2014, 11:10 AM
There are CA and Federal requirements, which are different.

The DROS only needs to be retained for 3 years

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs


7) ...
All correspondence and documentation must be retained for three years for inspection purposes.


A completed 4473 has to be retained for 20 years, non-completed for 5 years.

Tyke8319
04-20-2014, 3:11 PM
Let me break my question down more simply:

There are a variety of documents that go into any one particular completed DROS "package". (Copy of D/L, Proof Of Res., 4473, etc)
I have been told by DOJ that ALL documents except the 4473 can be destroyed at the end of the 3rd year.
There appears to be an inference in your post above that a copy of the D/L with the buyers residence address must be retained indefinitely??!! See below:
(c) The firearms dealer shall retain a photocopy of the
documentation as proof of compliance with this requirement.

kemasa
04-20-2014, 3:23 PM
There in no inference that anything has to be retained indefinitely. It would make no sense to keep copies of things related to a DROS once you can get rid of the DROS.

There is no Federal requirement that you copy other documents.

The CA DROS is separate from the 4473 and they don't have to be kept together and there are reasons to keep them separate. The is also the Federal multiple purchase forms, which must be retained with the 4473. You need to split the documents between CA and Federal. While all are required for a transfer, the documents are separate and really are not related.

The CA DOJ has no say and you should not listen to them with respect to Federal documents or Federal law BTW.

Ghost31415
05-22-2014, 12:22 AM
4. If it is a government issued document, it can apply for both Federal 4473 and CA DROS requirements. (example: CCW, CA Vehicle Registration, Hunting Licenses) If not, then you might need to satisfy both. (Example: a DMV printout would still require a utility bill.)
4473 Legal Alien and Nonimmigrant Alien Requirements

Thank you for this list! For some reason I was under the impression I couldn't "double dip" documents. Good thing CA DMV vehicle registration covers both! :thumbsup:

mntgirl
06-17-2014, 12:55 PM
what about Obama care healthcare documents? its government issued right? it has name and address, and it definatly expires? just a thaught

1LL1
04-17-2015, 9:01 AM
After reading through 4 pages, I think I'm more confused than when I started :confused:
What is the requirement for an AR Lower
I have a CADL with current address, a current active registration in my name but address is POBOX, I"m a citizen.......I appreciate all input/replies :cheers2:

kemasa
04-17-2015, 12:15 PM
The address has to be your residence address, not a PO Box. If it is a PO Box, then you need a government document with your residence address on it.

ugimports
04-17-2015, 6:55 PM
If the CADL address is your non PO Box current residential address that is all you need to DROS a lower.

XxWoodsHunterxX
12-07-2015, 9:00 PM
So public utilities are government correct? I have a customer with out of state hunting license and a pge bill with 4473 addres. Could he use his city water bill to satisfy federal for long gun purchase? His DL is po box.

kemasa
12-07-2015, 9:03 PM
If the water bill is a government organization, then it works for proof of residency for the Feds. Without knowing what it is, it is impossible to say though. LA DWP is government, for example. PGE, SCE are not government.

XxWoodsHunterxX
12-07-2015, 9:09 PM
It local county water department calaveras county water department.

kemasa
12-07-2015, 9:19 PM
sounds like government.

XxWoodsHunterxX
12-08-2015, 7:39 PM
sounds like government.


So I took a photo copy of the pge bill also since state asks for copy but he showed me the water bill also. What is confusing is fed says don't photocopy gov document just write down but then state says photocopy so I took photocopy of pge. What's is the proper way or is there?

kemasa
12-08-2015, 7:47 PM
The state requires a copy, so you make a copy. The Feds do not, so you just write down the info on the 4473. You have to follow the laws of both, except when it violates the law, like when the state says to copy Federal IDs. They told me that if the customer objects, then you don't have to do it, but then I asked what if I object because the Federal law says not to do it. They said that had never been asked before.

Josh3239
12-09-2015, 6:57 PM
Now this is my document, so if you don't like it, that is fine. However, I would like some proof reading and some possible more examples of documents you might regularly use for the 4473 Requirement.

Off the top of my head, documents I've used:

Vehicle reg (car, boat, motorcycle), handicap placard, dmv information request form, government owned utility bill such as LA DWP or City Of Oxnard Water, guard guard/firearms permit, ccw, medical examiners card, medical certification for pilots, cosmetology license, tattooing license, FFL (typically type 03), and Im sure I've accepted more.

The fishing license, assuming it was issued by the state, should have been ok. The Credit card statements and bank statements not so much.

The Fishing/Hunting License does not work and hasn't worked in a long long time. It is a government license, yes. It is NOT issued by the government. It is issued by a store on their DFG machine and the salesperson can put whatever address they want on there. The DOJ's position has been public and clear, here is one example (scroll to the bottom of the answer): https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs#13G

kemasa
12-10-2015, 3:46 PM
The Fishing/Hunting License does not work and hasn't worked in a long long time. It is a government license, yes. It is NOT issued by the government. It is issued by a store on their DFG machine and the salesperson can put whatever address they want on there. The DOJ's position has been public and clear, here is one example (scroll to the bottom of the answer): https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs#13G

I said if it is issued by the state.

Any government document could have any address on it. Your vehicle registration could be sent to a friend. It is all a joke.

0mannon0
12-10-2015, 4:20 PM
This:

Any government document could have any address on it. Your vehicle registration could be sent to a friend. It is all a joke.

...and the number of hoops increases.

>Muh energy depletion 8(

0mannon0