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View Full Version : 80% build, how do we prove that it isn't anything illegal?


pacrimguru
07-31-2010, 10:28 AM
let's say an LEO wants to inspect your 80% build for one reason or another. how do you prove to them that it is something that you built yourself and that it isn't something else? no markings at all or even home made etchings on it... i can see an uninformed officer might see it as something to be alarmed about.

from my understanding if an 80% is not going to be sold or transferred, then it does not have to have any markings on it. this is what i want to do but i need clarification before i move forward. thanks in advance.

eaglemike
07-31-2010, 10:44 AM
Well, in theory, there's supposed to be suspicion that a crime has actually been committed. Unfortunately, these day the LE can pretty much get away with "seizing for investigation." Then you have to dance through the hoops, fill out the forms, likely call our friends at CGF, and get you firearm back after some time. Hopefully with too much handling damage. Even that will likely be a pain w/o some sort of identifying marks.....
all the best,
Mike

CSACANNONEER
07-31-2010, 10:57 AM
I keep an ATF memo on home builds and a DOJ memo about fixed magazines in the grip of my AK pistol. I should really do the same for the rest on my home builds but, I'm lazy.

ironman5669
07-31-2010, 10:58 AM
This is exactly what is wrong with us. We dont need to prove our
innocence.The police have the burden of proof but we still allow them to make us feel like we need to prove something. WE DONT HAVE TO PROVE ANYTHING! and we shouldn't be afraid of law enforcement when we re doing nothing wrong. (gets down off of soap box and shakes head) That said,I can see where you are coming from,it could be a huge hassle, but if we let that stop us from exercising our rights then they have won without a fight.

gunsmith
07-31-2010, 11:03 AM
I keep an ATF memo on home builds and a DOJ memo about fixed magazines in the grip of my AK pistol. I should really do the same for the rest on my home builds but, I'm lazy.
unfortunately innocent till proven guilty means you still get hassled by "The Man" so off the top of my head - CSACANNONEER advice sounds good.

.... Of course screaming "molon labe you rotten fascist" always works too, cops always just back off when you scream that at them.
;-)

ke6guj
07-31-2010, 12:30 PM
This is exactly what is wrong with us. We dont need to prove our
innocence.The police have the burden of proof but we still allow them to make us feel like we need to prove something. WE DONT HAVE TO PROVE ANYTHING! and we shouldn't be afraid of law enforcement when we re doing nothing wrong. (gets down off of soap box and shakes head) That said,I can see where you are coming from,it could be a huge hassle, but if we let that stop us from exercising our rights then they have won without a fight.

no, but the old saying, "you may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride" is always in the mix. If you can avoid the ride in the first place by educating the officer, better for you.

ironman5669
07-31-2010, 12:43 PM
Im not advocating violence, or even "attitude" toward law enforcement, I have huge respect for what they do. I am simply stating that we should not let concern over wrongfull persecution (or prosecution) cause us to give up our rights, it is our duty to preserve what few freedoms we have left for future generations.
I agree that educating the LE would be the best aproach, that is if he or she will listen to a non LE which I find doubtfull, even if you do have photocopies of doj memos in hand.

Code7inOaktown
07-31-2010, 2:43 PM
I keep an ATF memo on home builds and a DOJ memo about fixed magazines in the grip of my AK pistol. I should really do the same for the rest on my home builds but, I'm lazy.

That's a great idea. Care to share which memo's you think we should carry? Perhaps it could reduced in sized and laminated.

Hmm. Maybe a CG approved set of memo's and guidance laid out in an easy to digest format to help educate LEO who aren't quite up on what is legal today. Maybe it should even include department memo's/guidance from other California departments/Sheriff's Offices that have already gone over this.

Personally, I'm with you. I know a lot of people feel that they should not have to go through the hoops to defend a right, but we can all admit that it's not exactly easy to understand even for those closely trying to follow it. So, for some beat cop who isn't a gun guy or even is a gun guy but has not followed the changes in the law these documents can be helpful.

From a cop's perspective, all he knows is what the P.C. is condensed into a Qwik Code book. These are cops -- not lawyers. And as far he knows, AW are banned in California. So, is he going to let you slide or is it easier for him to seize and figure it out later?

CSACANNONEER
07-31-2010, 7:07 PM
I'm not even sure which one's I reduced and stuck in the PG but, here are a couple that would work:

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p43/csacannoneer/IMG_0001.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p43/csacannoneer/IMG_0002.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p43/csacannoneer/IMG_0003.jpg

Code7inOaktown
08-01-2010, 12:13 AM
I'm not even sure which one's I reduced and stuck in the PG but, here are a couple that would work:

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p43/csacannoneer/IMG_0001.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p43/csacannoneer/IMG_0002.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p43/csacannoneer/IMG_0003.jpg

The Sacto PD memo would probably be good to have as well:

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Sacramento-PD-OLL_Training_Bulletin-2008-11-18.pdf

Ford8N
08-01-2010, 6:17 AM
Well, in theory, there's supposed to be suspicion that a crime has actually been committed. Unfortunately, these day the LE can pretty much get away with "seizing for investigation." Then you have to dance through the hoops, fill out the forms, likely call our friends at CGF, and get you firearm back after some time. Hopefully with too much handling damage. Even that will likely be a pain w/o some sort of identifying marks.....
all the best,
Mike

And a lawyer will cost big dollar$$$$$$$$$. LEO's and D.A.'s know this. Who is going to drop 1K in legal fees on a $400 AK that the cop knows is legal? Call me cynical but this happens all the time. Until we get something in the P.C. that lets us have a pistol grip avoid "The Man".

craneman
08-01-2010, 8:50 AM
And a lawyer will cost big dollar$$$$$$$$$. LEO's and D.A.'s know this. Who is going to drop 1K in legal fees on a $400 AK that the cop knows is legal? Call me cynical but this happens all the time. Until we get something in the P.C. that lets us have a pistol grip avoid "The Man".

I will. I will do it on principal alone. The hell with the money. I am not a criminal in any way, I am an upstanding United States Citizen. I will not cower to LE or DA's when I am right, and have broken no laws. The range I frequent has many LEO in it ant any given time. No one has ever even looked at me weird, yet. I carry a copy of the DOJ letter, and the flowchart, just in case. If I have to spend money to defend myself from wrongful persecution, so be it. If I ever have to do it twice, with the same deptartments, stand by. Someones gonna get sued. That is one of the many reasons I am a contributing member of CGN and CGF. I think Mr. Hoffman said something about CGF "when you absolutly, positively, have to sue every MF'er in the room". I refuse to be intimidated, and I refuse to have my rights trampled, when I have done nothing wrong.

N6ATF
08-01-2010, 9:36 AM
.... Of course screaming "molon labe you rotten fascist" always works too, cops always just back off when you scream that at them.
;-)

LMFAO

HotRails
08-01-2010, 1:15 PM
To the OP:

Hoffmang did a great thread about this. Its a sticky in the gunsmithing section. Here is the link:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=86627

I believe that buried in there somewhere is the link to the ATF letter that CSA posted as well. This should be kept with all builds. ATF letterhead will go alot further than a stumbling verbal explanation under duress. Another suggestion in the link above is to engrave your own serial number to avoid being accused of obliterating one by an uninformed LEO.

wash
08-02-2010, 10:20 AM
#1, avoid the situation as much as possible.

If you have done nothing illegal, there is no reason for a police officer to look at your gun, so why give them the opportunity?

#2, If something like that happens to me, I'll spend a few grand to get that $400 rifle back.

It's the principal of the matter and I think it would be funny as hell to watch the officer get *****-slapped in court and then get my gun back.

nick
08-03-2010, 10:31 AM
#1, avoid the situation as much as possible.

If you have done nothing illegal, there is no reason for a police officer to look at your gun, so why give them the opportunity?

#2, If something like that happens to me, I'll spend a few grand to get that $400 rifle back.

It's the principal of the matter and I think it would be funny as hell to watch the officer get *****-slapped in court and then get my gun back.

Except for the officer won't be "*****-slapped" in court. Nothing is likely to happen to him, to the person who started the whole thing. Until there're VERY negative consequences to the offending officer in question (as well as to the DAs who press the matter knowing (or when they should've known) that no crime was committed), this will continue.

wash
08-03-2010, 11:06 AM
Oh, it could be a *****-slap.

A few creative motions could cause a lot of embarrassment.

I would have fun with it.

It might seem like a lot of money for a few lols so it's not for everyone but I would do it.

drs2714
08-03-2010, 11:45 AM
I always told my drivers
"Don't go and whip your noodle out while driving thru the truck scales"
The same goes with DIY guns!
Its not for everyone.
It is easier to buy already made.Sometimes cheaper too!
But For those who like the challenge of the path least traveled.
CARRY ON!
P.S.I VOTE:willy_nilly: VADERSPADE for GOVERNOR

Seesm
08-03-2010, 12:15 PM
I have one of these and I hope to not run into LEO with them but I would hope I could explain what the deal was good enough he would at least take the gun that is pointing to my head off his point of aim. THEN have him call into a superior and figure out what is what.
Or do a voluntary reg with DOJ and carry the paperwork with you..

Or just dros and do not do home brews...