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xibunkrlilkidsx
07-30-2010, 10:30 PM
im going camping and plan on taking my handgun with me in yosemite.

now can i keep my handgun loaded while it is in my tent(with me at camp obviously)? Would i need to leave it in a locked container in my tent?


If someone calls rangers about a man with a firearm, IE unloaded open carry or just seeing my case while unloading, and i put my gun in the tent do rangers have the ability to search my tent w/o my permission?

ldivinag
07-30-2010, 10:41 PM
unless yosemite has BIG BOLD signs saying NO FIREARMS anywhere, then you are GTG...

is yosemite BLM/federal or state land?

one of the nice things is that kalif treats where ever you are, as your home. say you are in a motorhome and you are park for the night. that is currently your home. you can carry in a holster, etc.

but as soon as you start moving in the motorhome or RV, then it is treated as a vehicle. as such. all rules regarding transporting a firearm in a vehicle applies.

tents? same thing... it's your home for the mean time.

again, the only deal breaker is it's a state park and they have signs saying so...

heliopolissolutions
07-30-2010, 10:43 PM
Its more complicated then that, just ask Ed Peruta.

Crom
07-31-2010, 7:45 AM
I believe that the tent is your temporary residence. Therefore you may legally posess a loaded firearm while in your campsite and in your tent. According to the law a person may have many residences in the same state or in many states. If you are wealthy you can have many houses all over the country and live part time in any one of them. A person will however have only one domicile, which is where they would vote in a federal election.With regards to Yosemite, be discrete and you should not have any issues. Yosemite is pretty chill and I have been there many times and have never had any problems from people. I did have issues with bears coming into the campsite at Whitewolf. When that happenend I was cursing myself for not having the .44 Mag at the ready. Bears will go site to site to check that the bear boxes are closed correctly, and finding one that is not its party time for them.

Big Jake
07-31-2010, 8:26 AM
FYI, Yosemite is a national park and unless you have a California ccw it is probably not legal!

Crom
07-31-2010, 12:42 PM
FYI, Yosemite is a national park and unless you have a California ccw it is probably not legal!

Jake, The federal law changed in February of this year when the Credit Card Bill of Rights when into effect in February. There was an amendment in the bill which made it so that National Parks must honor the state laws in which the National Park is located.

So it is lawful to open carry in National Parks in California or at least to have a loaded weapon inside the campsite.

The quote below is from Wikipedia. I assume it is correct.

Gun rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_rights) advocates in the Senate, led by Tom Coburn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Coburn) (R-Okla) added an unrelated rider (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rider_%28legislation%29) to the bill to prevent the Secretary of the Interior (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Secretary_of_the_Interior) from enforcing any regulation that would prohibit an individual from possessing a firearm in any unit of the National Park System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Park_System) or the National Wildlife Refuge System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Wildlife_Refuge_System).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_CARD_Act_of_2009#cite_note-3)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_CARD_Act_of_2009#cite_note-4) The Senate passed the amendment 67-29.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_CARD_Act_of_2009#cite_note-5)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_CARD_Act_of_2009#cite_note-NYTguns-6)
This amendment overturns a Reagan-era policy prohibiting firearms from being carried in national parks. The George W. Bush administration had attempted to implement a similar policy through the rulemaking process just before leaving office; however the change was struck down by a federal judge. This provision has been heavily criticized by environmentalists, anti-gun groups, and park supporters including the Coalition of National Park Service Retirees, but applauded by gun rights groups.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_CARD_Act_of_2009#cite_note-NYTguns-6)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_CARD_Act_of_2009#cite_note-7)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_CARD_Act_of_2009

Flopper
07-31-2010, 2:14 PM
You can carry in any manner you like, loaded, while in your residence, which in this case is your tent, but you most likely cannot carry unrestricted outside your tent in the rest of your campsite as it will almost assuredly be considered open to the public.

Keep in mind though that if you OC in the park (and most other areas throughout CA) you will likely be harassed, detained, and even arrested, whether it's legal or not.

FWIW, carrying concealed without a permit is a misdemeanor for a first time offense, and concealed means concealed.

xibunkrlilkidsx
07-31-2010, 3:00 PM
You can carry in any manner you like, loaded, while in your residence, which in this case is your tent, but you most likely cannot carry unrestricted outside your tent in the rest of your campsite as it will almost assuredly be considered open to the public.

Keep in mind though that if you OC in the park (and most other areas throughout CA) you will likely be harassed, detained, and even arrested, whether it's legal or not.

FWIW, carrying concealed without a permit is a misdemeanor for a first time offense, and concealed means concealed.

isnt ther also a statuate that says it is legal to carry a loaded firearm while at a campsite? im sure it doesnt count here becasue it is federal land though.


i was aware of the hole being posted part of not being able to carry into certain buildings. so what i think i will do is make one of my pockets on my backpack where i keep my handgun locked if i do go into a building just to not have any crap started.

i only really plan on carrying it when we are on a trail and i probably wont holster it until we are a ways off the main trail head so less people will see me putting it on.


thanks for the answers thus far.

OleCuss
07-31-2010, 6:11 PM
isnt ther also a statuate that says it is legal to carry a loaded firearm while at a campsite? im sure it doesnt count here becasue it is federal land though.


i was aware of the hole being posted part of not being able to carry into certain buildings. so what i think i will do is make one of my pockets on my backpack where i keep my handgun locked if i do go into a building just to not have any crap started.

i only really plan on carrying it when we are on a trail and i probably wont holster it until we are a ways off the main trail head so less people will see me putting it on.

Edit: You really should go to the relevant Wiki. I did a little searching and found it. It's a great resource and more reliable than I am. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457
thanks for the answers thus far.

Umm. . . If you are planning to lock up your gun in your backpack and then take it into a posted building. . . Major bad news if they catch you. The posted buildings mean that if they catch you with a weapon they're gonna do bad things to you and I don't think they're going to be nice to you even if you've unloaded it and locked it up. Even if you have a CCW license they're not going to be nice to you.

Edit: You really should go to the Wiki. It's probably your best resource. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457

xibunkrlilkidsx
07-31-2010, 10:26 PM
Umm. . . If you are planning to lock up your gun in your backpack and then take it into a posted building. . . Major bad news if they catch you. The posted buildings mean that if they catch you with a weapon they're gonna do bad things to you and I don't think they're going to be nice to you even if you've unloaded it and locked it up. Even if you have a CCW license they're not going to be nice to you.

Edit: You really should go to the Wiki. It's probably your best resource. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457

ah..theyre considering it a federal building arent they, like courts and yadda. that i didnt think of.

OleCuss
08-01-2010, 4:24 AM
ah..theyre considering it a federal building arent they, like courts and yadda. that i didnt think of.

A slight distinction to be made. They are considering it a "federal facility" if it has been posted. There are federal buildings which (at least for the purposes of NPS and firearms) which are not "federal facilities".

No firearms in posted "federal facilities" but you can carry firearms into any "federal building" which is not designated as a "federal facility" within Yosemite National Park. (As long as doing so is legal under California State law.)

jpr9954
08-02-2010, 10:29 AM
im going camping and plan on taking my handgun with me in yosemite.

now can i keep my handgun loaded while it is in my tent(with me at camp obviously)? Would i need to leave it in a locked container in my tent?


If someone calls rangers about a man with a firearm, IE unloaded open carry or just seeing my case while unloading, and i put my gun in the tent do rangers have the ability to search my tent w/o my permission?

That is the part of the premise behind the lawsuit filed by the Mtn States Legal Foundation against Nevada. The case is Baker v. Biaggi et al. They are seeking to have a tent defined as a temporary domicile protected by the 2nd Amendment.

http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.com/2010/07/nevada-state-parks-sued-over-gun.html

GrizzlyGuy
08-02-2010, 12:16 PM
Per 12031 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12031.html), you can have a loaded gun anywhere within your tent or campsite:

(l) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person from having a
loaded weapon, if it is otherwise lawful, at his or her place of
residence, including any temporary residence or campsite.

This includes Yosemite since firearms are only prohibited within the "federal facilities" (basically the buildings).

paul0660
08-02-2010, 12:25 PM
firearms are only prohibited within the "federal facilities" (basically the buildings).

When posted, which has been mentioned before.

Important to note there is a school somewhere in Yosemite, which has to be kept in mind when UOC.

Flopper
08-02-2010, 1:20 PM
Per 12031 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12031.html), you can have a loaded gun anywhere within your tent or campsite:



This includes Yosemite since firearms are only prohibited within the "federal facilities" (basically the buildings).

In light of that, how then does Overturf make any sense?

The PC and case law of Overturf seem to make two separate classes of residences:

1. Permanent residences that must have restricted access to the grounds in order to carry unrestricted, and

2. Temporary residences that specifically say that the entire campsite is an unrestricted carry zone.

I understand that there are plenty of instances where the PC will intentionally make such distinctions, but this is one case where such a distinction doesn't make sense.

It would seem to me that the People would have, if anything, a GREATER right to carry at their permanent residence than at a temporary one.

Any thoughts?

GrizzlyGuy
08-02-2010, 1:23 PM
That's nice. BUT: Imagine you are camping in a county park, in San AntiGun county (hypothetical example). In that county, possession of guns is simply prohibited in county parks, with no exceptions for CCW or locked in a vehicle (only exception is for county park rangers and active-duty LEOs). How can you possibly get your gun from the park entrance to the campsite? In such a situation, the (legal) possession of a gun within your tent is prima facie evidence that you broke the law when transporting the gun there. And once you are in your tent, the only way to get the gun back out of the park legally would be to have a park ranger confiscate it from you, and you pick it up (with a LEGR) a few months later, once your case has been dismissed. Clearly, you can't just take it back out through the park.

Before you laugh about my hypothetical example: AFAIK it exactly describes Santa Clara county parks (many have campgrounds, and obviously the gun prohibition doesn't apply to Metcalf). The situation in California State parks is similar, except that there transportation of guns is allowed, as long as they are cased, locked, and (or?) rendered inoperable.

OP's question was about camping in Yosemite, which is a federal park. It is OK to have a loaded firearm within your campsite at a federal park. Yes, the laws and regulations differ for state parks, county parks (these vary by county and possibly even by park), municipal parks, national forests, BLM land, private campgrounds (e.g., KOA), etc.

For state parks, you actually can't have a loaded gun at your campsite regardless of how you transported it to your campsite or how it is stored since unloaded is one of the transport/storage conditions (http://www.parks.ca.gov/default.asp?page_id=21301):

Firearms not having a cartridge in any portion of the mechanism, traps, nets, bows and arrows, other unloaded weapons or devices may be possessed within temporary lodging or mechanical mode of conveyance when such implements are rendered temporarily inoperable or are packed, cased, or stored in a manner that will prevent their ready use

We've placed much of this info is in the FAQs (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ), such as: Can I have a firearm in a state park? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Can_I_have_a_firearm_in_a_state_park.3F)

fd15k
08-02-2010, 1:29 PM
That's nice. BUT: Imagine you are camping in a county park, in San AntiGun county (hypothetical example). In that county, possession of guns is simply prohibited in county parks, with no exceptions for CCW or locked in a vehicle (only exception is for county park rangers and active-duty LEOs). How can you possibly get your gun from the park entrance to the campsite? In such a situation, the (legal) possession of a gun within your tent is prima facie evidence that you broke the law when transporting the gun there. And once you are in your tent, the only way to get the gun back out of the park legally would be to have a park ranger confiscate it from you, and you pick it up (with a LEGR) a few months later, once your case has been dismissed. Clearly, you can't just take it back out through the park.

Before you laugh about my hypothetical example: AFAIK it exactly describes Santa Clara county parks (many have campgrounds, and obviously the gun prohibition doesn't apply to Metcalf). The situation in California State parks is similar, except that there transportation of guns is allowed, as long as they are cased, locked, and (or?) rendered inoperable.

Well, the way I see it, at the very least federal FOPA should preempt such restrictions while transporting in your vehicle.

GrizzlyGuy
08-02-2010, 1:49 PM
In light of that, how then does Overturf make any sense?

The PC and case law of Overturf seem to make two separate classes of residences:

1. Permanent residences that must have restricted access to the grounds in order to carry unrestricted, and

2. Temporary residences that specifically say that the entire campsite is an unrestricted carry zone.

I understand that there are plenty of instances where the PC will intentionally make such distinctions, but this is one case where such a distinction doesn't make sense.

It would seem to me that the People would have, if anything, a GREATER right to carry at their permanent residence than at a temporary one.

Any thoughts?

People v. Overturf (http://www.calccw.com/Forums/legal/539-people-v-overturf-carrying-private-property-outdoors.html) has never made sense to me since they ended up determining that "having" <> "carrying". :rolleyes:

That said, it was really about restrictions on loaded firearms in semi-public places as Gene points out in his article here (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Unlicensed_Concealed_Carry#Semi_Public_Places_Rest rictions). Thanks to Overturf, your unfenced and privately owned front yard in an incorporated city is really a public place and you'd be in violation of 12031 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12031.html) if you had or carried a loaded weapon in it (other than as allowed for making arrests, self-defense, etc.). I don't see how that relates to camping at Yosemite.

It might be more relevant if camping at a privately owned KOA campground within an incorporated city. For example, let's assume that the campground is empty (other than your site) so you decide that it wouldn't hurt to carry your loaded gun to the restroom with you.

Thanks to Overturf, you would be in violation of 12031 as soon as you stepped across the boundary of your own campsite, even though the entire campground is on private property. The property owners chose to operate a business on their property that is open to the public, and they likely chose to allow people to drive on in without challenge so that they can select their site before paying for it. That would make it a 'public place' per the Overturf logic.

IANAL, YMMV. :)

Flopper
08-02-2010, 2:03 PM
People v. Overturf (http://www.calccw.com/Forums/legal/539-people-v-overturf-carrying-private-property-outdoors.html) has never made sense to me since they ended up determining that "having" <> "carrying". :rolleyes:

That said, it was really about restrictions on loaded firearms in semi-public places as Gene points out in his article here (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Unlicensed_Concealed_Carry#Semi_Public_Places_Rest rictions). Thanks to Overturf, your unfenced and privately owned front yard in an incorporated city is really a public place and you'd be in violation of 12031 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12031.html) if you had or carried a loaded weapon in it (other than as allowed for making arrests, self-defense, etc.). I don't see how that relates to camping at Yosemite.

It might be more relevant if camping at a privately owned KOA campground within an incorporated city. For example, let's assume that the campground is empty (other than your site) so you decide that it wouldn't hurt to carry your loaded gun to the restroom with you.

Thanks to Overturf, you would be in violation of 12031 as soon as you stepped across the boundary of your own campsite, even though the entire campground is on private property. The property owners chose to operate a business on their property that is open to the public, and they likely chose to allow people to drive on in without challenge so that they can select their site before paying for it. That would make it a 'public place' per the Overturf logic.

IANAL, YMMV. :)

OK, so apparently the one part I was missing was that Overturf dealt with this issue in incorporated cities. I always wondered how a landowner in the country would ever be able to carry on his unfenced property.

Still a horrible ruling, but thanks for explaining it.

ETA: I just read the Overturf ruling for the first time in full, and my head hurts.

Wherryj
08-02-2010, 2:53 PM
That's nice. BUT: Imagine you are camping in a county park, in San AntiGun county (hypothetical example). .

Isn't it redundant to state that any county beginning with "San" is anti-gun?

Even San Bernardino isn't exactly "pro-" gun. I think that we've all seen how San Luis Obispo county thinks about guns. Am I missing a "pro-gun" San? (Inside of CA, that is.)

fd15k
08-02-2010, 3:30 PM
And to my knowledge FOPA has nothing to do with any of this. If FOPA made gun transportation restrictions impossible, then how come we still have GFSZ, and even harsher restrictions on the grounds of schools and college campuses?

If you're transporting according to FOPA, GFSZ's don't apply to you. Now when it comes to "on the grounds" that's a different story.

bandook
08-02-2010, 8:50 PM
From the Handgun Safety Certificate Study Guide:

Question: Generally, a person may legally have a loaded handgun, if otherwise lawful, at his or her campsite. (page 37)
True False
Answer: True

(If a person’s campsite is located within an area where possession of a firearm is prohibited by local or federal laws, such laws would prevail.)

Meplat
08-02-2010, 9:46 PM
FYI, Yosemite is a national park and unless you have a California ccw it is probably not legal!

In your tent and at your campste it most certainly is legal.

destro360
08-02-2010, 10:11 PM
stae park equals no gun as far as i know.

Meplat
08-02-2010, 10:23 PM
I rarely disagree with you flopper, but. Your campsite, not just your tent is your temporary home. Admittedly the lines get blurry. But if you are sitting around your camp fire, you are not in a public place. Any community facilities such as bathrooms and the route to them would be a clear no-no.

;)

You can carry in any manner you like, loaded, while in your residence, which in this case is your tent, but you most likely cannot carry unrestricted outside your tent in the rest of your campsite as it will almost assuredly be considered open to the public.

Keep in mind though that if you OC in the park (and most other areas throughout CA) you will likely be harassed, detained, and even arrested, whether it's legal or not.

FWIW, carrying concealed without a permit is a misdemeanor for a first time offense, and concealed means concealed.

Hunt
08-02-2010, 11:10 PM
...

Before you laugh about my hypothetical example: AFAIK it exactly describes Santa Clara county parks (many have campgrounds, and obviously the gun prohibition doesn't apply to Metcalf). The situation in California State parks is similar, except that there transportation of guns is allowed, as long as they are cased, locked, and (or?) rendered inoperable. Same problem w/ San Diego County Parks hopefully in the next few years we can roll back some of the insanity.

Hunt
08-02-2010, 11:13 PM
stae park equals no gun as far as i know.

If they even see a gun in a State Park they will get real crazy. When I drive through the State Parks I keep things locked up and well out of view. Funny thing the Rangers get to carry firearms.

gorblimey
08-03-2010, 2:30 AM
I've been around a while, and have never been patted down, searched, or arrested save for the usual airport indignities.

Do I feel safe carrying however and whenever? Most certainly. Perhaps CA will recognize my out of state CCW at some point, but that does not negate the need for immediate security.

Especially in bear country.. good grief, man, protect whatever you hold dear. No one will ever know if you don't need it, and if you do need, you'll be damn glad you had it. Have some bear spray handy, by all means, but back it up with something real in case that plan goes south.

Meplat
08-03-2010, 6:34 AM
It is perfectly legal to carry open and loaded in 99.999999% of California "bear country". It is interesting how so many people seem to think the whole world has the same rules as the city block they live on.

In CA. it is always legal to carry open and loaded unless there is a specific law that prohibits it in a specific place or circumstance.

I've been around a while, and have never been patted down, searched, or arrested save for the usual airport indignities.

Do I feel safe carrying however and whenever? Most certainly. Perhaps CA will recognize my out of state CCW at some point, but that does not negate the need for immediate security.

Especially in bear country.. good grief, man, protect whatever you hold dear. No one will ever know if you don't need it, and if you do need, you'll be damn glad you had it. Have some bear spray handy, by all means, but back it up with something real in case that plan goes south.

GrizzlyGuy
08-03-2010, 6:49 AM
OK, so apparently the one part I was missing was that Overturf dealt with this issue in incorporated cities. I always wondered how a landowner in the country would ever be able to carry on his unfenced property.

Still a horrible ruling, but thanks for explaining it.

ETA: I just read the Overturf ruling for the first time in full, and my head hurts.

LOL! Exactly, if there were ever a guaranteed head-hurts-to-read case, that would be the one. The tortured logic ends up torturing you!

Just for clarity, your unfenced yard in unincorporated territory would still be a public place. However, 12031 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12031.html) only applies to public places in unincorporated territory when discharge is prohibited:

(a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when
he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a
prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

So if you could legally discharge your firearm in your yard, then you can carry it loaded in your yard.

Most counties have ordinances that prohibit discharge within X yards/feet of someone else's house. If your yard is more than X yards/feet from someone else's house you are generally OK (assuming no other ordinance exists that prohibits discharge). If you are within X yards/feet then it would be just as if you lived in an incorporated town.

abusalim81
08-03-2010, 10:32 AM
I usually go camping in Stanislaus Forest near Lake Alpine and I had contacted the Sheriff out there to ask weather I can have a loaded gun inside the tent and the answer is YES, in California a tent is considered your temp residence. He also gave me a written letter with all the rules/laws when it comes to having firearms in the forest.

LOAD UP and PROTECT your family from Bears!