PDA

View Full Version : Since when is a laundromat a US Federally Sensitive Place?


nhanson
07-30-2010, 7:08 PM
I'm sitting here in Yellowstone NP and went to the laundromat. a "No Firearms" sign was posted on the door. The facility is run by a contractor and no US Federal personnel are in attendance. The sign did not look like an official US poster and had no reference to US code!

Who is controlling the firearms postings in our national parks?

CSACANNONEER
07-30-2010, 7:21 PM
If a private contractor is running the bussiness, then it's his/her call. You need to respect the sign. Of course, you do not need to spend any money there. Instead, leave a polite note explaining why you decided not to let them make a profit off of you.

OleCuss
07-30-2010, 8:00 PM
If a private contractor is running the bussiness, then it's his/her call. You need to respect the sign. Of course, you do not need to spend any money there. Instead, leave a polite note explaining why you decided not to let them make a profit off of you.

You're likely correct, but it leaves me curious about the contracting. Since the vendor/business is inside a National Park and does business there by virtue of a contract with an element of the federal government, shouldn't they have to follow the same guidelines regarding CCW that the National Park must follow?

Is there actually a carve-out in the amendment which allows them to invalidate the provision in law by simply contracting it away?

I could understand this much better if it were a business sitting on privately owned land and operating under the usual form of business license rather than as a concessionaire in a National Park.

Anyway, I'm sure I'm saying stupid stuff, but it seems like a stupid situation.

rromeo
07-30-2010, 8:08 PM
If it was a federal building you couldn't go in there either.

OleCuss
07-30-2010, 8:15 PM
If it was a federal building you couldn't go in there either.

I'm not sure that's correct in this case. The rules that came out specified that in order to prohibit CCW and such the building typically had to be occupied by federal personnel (I need to find the regulation/letter which was posted months ago). So if there is a building typically not occupied by the covered personnel - you can carry in it in a National Park whether or not it is officially a federal building. The distinction is at least one reason why the prohibited facilities have to be posted.

WokMaster1
07-30-2010, 8:30 PM
I was at Lassen Volcanic NP today & they too had No guns sign on a lot of buildings. Visitor center, gift shop/cafe & bathroom.

OleCuss
07-30-2010, 9:02 PM
Here is a link to a thread with some very good and relevant links.

The guidance on firearms seems to indicate that the buildings with a federal prohibition on firearms would mostly be those in which federal employees are "regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties."

The example list (not all-inclusive) is "visitor centers, park administrative office buildings, park maintenance offices and workshops, backcountry offices, ranger stations, lifeguard kiosks, and fee collection stations."

I do not think that a gift shop, a cafe, or a bathroom would fit within the guidance for federally prohibited buildings unless they were a part of something like a visitor center or other facilities on the above list.

There might be fodder for additional lawsuits?

Purple K
07-30-2010, 10:46 PM
Since the building is being rented/leased by a contractor the sign is just a polite request, not a legal requirement. If you ignore the sign and enter with a firearm all the proprieter can do is ask you to leave. If you don't leave you can be charged with trespassing.

gazzavc
07-30-2010, 11:20 PM
If a private contractor is running the bussiness, then it's his/her call. You need to respect the sign. Of course, you do not need to spend any money there. Instead, leave a polite note explaining why you decided not to let them make a profit off of you.


Or on the other hand leave a turd in the dryer...................:43:

pitchbaby
07-30-2010, 11:34 PM
Here is a link to a thread with some very good and relevant links.

The guidance on firearms seems to indicate that the buildings with a federal prohibition on firearms would mostly be those in which federal employees are "regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties."

The example list (not all-inclusive) is "visitor centers, park administrative office buildings, park maintenance offices and workshops, backcountry offices, ranger stations, lifeguard kiosks, and fee collection stations."

I do not think that a gift shop, a cafe, or a bathroom would fit within the guidance for federally prohibited buildings unless they were a part of something like a visitor center or other facilities on the above list.

There might be fodder for additional lawsuits?

I am gonna have to 2nd this answer... I believe it is correct.

xibunkrlilkidsx
07-30-2010, 11:35 PM
how is the weather up there. going up there this monday.



Probably a private contractors decision. just be respectful if you forget and they say something.

7222 Hawker
07-30-2010, 11:48 PM
Since the building is being rented/leased by a contractor the sign is just a polite request, not a legal requirement. If you ignore the sign and enter with a firearm all the proprieter can do is ask you to leave. If you don't leave you can be charged with trespassing.

And, worse case scenario, if you had to use your gun for self defense, you'd be fine. Unless of course you were in San Francisco County where they are more interested in prosecting conservatives (including most cops) than they are in prosecuting criminals.

POLICESTATE
07-31-2010, 12:06 AM
Or on the other hand leave a turd in the dryer...................:43:

eeeeewwwwwwwww :eek:

CSACANNONEER
07-31-2010, 7:37 AM
Or on the other hand leave a turd in the dryer...................:43:

Fortunately, we are all more mature and responsible enough not to do something like that. But, I had to smile when I read your suggestion. Years ago, a friend of mine bought a laundromat in Grover City (now Grover Beach) and every day, we would find a big turd in the middle of the floor. The bathroom was unlocked but a homeless guy, who was commonly known as "Diaper Man", would not use a toilet. He did like the laudromat's floor though.

GM4spd
07-31-2010, 7:43 AM
I'm sitting here in Yellowstone NP and went to the laundromat. a "No Firearms" sign was posted on the door. The facility is run by a contractor and no US Federal personnel are in attendance. The sign did not look like an official US poster and had no reference to US code!

Who is controlling the firearms postings in our national parks?

Was the laundromat near a school? Pete

Oshiat
07-31-2010, 7:58 AM
I have the pdfs available that were issued in January 2010 that outline the federal guidelines and required signage. If someone wants to post them ( I can't), I would be happy to email them to you.

choprzrul
07-31-2010, 12:39 PM
Post McDonald, I don't think that SC would say that a fundamental right stops at a doorway of a govt building in a NP. Maybe at the door of a public school, but not in Jellystone. Just my $.02; and no I don't want to be the test case.

nhanson
07-31-2010, 12:57 PM
Checked the Visitor Centers, Backwoods offices and they have official federal stickers about 4x6 inches. Not overly visible but, with federal references. the laundry was printed on a piece of printer paper with no federal referencing. The gift shops, bathrooms, restaurants are not marked. The folks have put this up on their own initiative and I don't believe there is provisions in the law for leased concerns to make such decisions. I may be wrong however, the ranger staff is low keying the issue here in Yellowstone with the size of the markings and no verbal comments. Otherwise, had a 2500 pound Bull Bison stare me down on the road this morning in a very pissed of attitude. They are big guy's and I'm driving a Chevy 2500 Crew Cab. Don't think a .45 would have been much use!

OleCuss
07-31-2010, 1:04 PM
Post McDonald, I don't think that SC would say that a fundamental right stops at a doorway of a govt building in a NP. Maybe at the door of a public school, but not in Jellystone. Just my $.02; and no I don't want to be the test case.

SCOTUS provided that there could still be sensitive areas in which firearms could be prohibited. This could easily include some federal buildings - and I'd sorta bet that the definition of a "federal facility" which was used in the NPS guidance on firearms will substantially hold up in court - at least for a while.

Note that not all federally-owned buildings fit that NPS definition of a "federal facility".

In any case, I'm sure that now is not the time for a lawsuit regarding the prohibition on firearms in a "federal facility" as promulgated in the NPS guidance issued in January of this year. Where a suit might be indicated is where the implementation of that guidance goes much too far or where the guidance was effectively ignored and there is close to a blanket prohibition on carry in NPS associated buildings.

The other area where a suit might make sense is where the NPS evades the guidance by contracting services to a concessionaire and then allow them to prohibit in a fashion inconsistent with the spirit of the previously mentioned guidance.

But then, IANAL.

dustoff31
07-31-2010, 1:08 PM
The folks have put this up on their own initiative and I don't believe there is provisions in the law for leased concerns to make such decisions. I may be wrong however, the ranger staff is low keying the issue here in Yellowstone with the size of the markings and no verbal comments.

Maybe reading this wrong, but have you directly asked the Rangers about the sign on the laundromat? What do they say about it?

socal2310
07-31-2010, 2:06 PM
Maybe reading this wrong, but have you directly asked the Rangers about the sign on the laundromat? What do they say about it?

That's assuming they would know. Not very likely.

Ryan

cr250chevy
07-31-2010, 8:51 PM
WOW, ridiculous; but hey at least criminals wont bring their guns into the store when they decide to rob it right? right?..... :rolleyes:

Curtis
07-31-2010, 10:46 PM
I'm also at Yellowstone. I haven't seen anything related to firearms in the park. I was at Mount Rushmoore last week and they quoted the law and the date it went into effect. Was actually very clear and accurate. I was impressed.


how is the weather up there?

It's been very warm (around 90) with thunder storms daily. They are typically hit and miss. But when they hit they are heavy and quick. Tonight the down pour lasted about 30 mins.

gunsmith
07-31-2010, 11:45 PM
If it was a federal building you couldn't go in there either.

it has to be posted at both entrance and exit afaik

gunsmith
08-01-2010, 12:27 AM
it has to be posted at both entrance and exit afaik

Q: What about information stations and concession stands?
A: Any restricted federal buildings must be clearly posted as such.

The interior of a federal building (this includes any rest stops, information centers, and concession stands bearing the National Park Service logo) falls under Title 18, Sec 930 “Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities” ( http://tinyurl.com/yg2zhwb )
However, Title 18, Sec 930 does stipulate the following
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each
public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility.

So there shouldn’t be any confusion as restricted buildings MUST BY LAW be “posted conspicuously” that weapons are not permitted. If it’s not posted, it’s not restricted (Unless you have been notified by an authorized person and asked to leave because then you've had "actual notice" under subsection H...<sigh>).