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Donny1
07-30-2010, 12:36 PM
Sorry to did this up again but I did read through this previous post and did not come away with a exact consensus.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=274974&highlight=lock

I want to know as some stated in the thread that if an approved lock is provided when the PPT is initiated, with out a receipt, will that fly?

Also, how do built in locks apply to the law?

Thanks

Cokebottle
07-30-2010, 12:51 PM
Legally, if the seller provides the lock, it is a part of the gun sale and it is GTG.

Whether or not that will fly with the FFL is the issue.
There have been reports of FFLs that make customers buy a new lock when they buy a new gun that has a manufacturer-provided lock.

Donny1
07-30-2010, 12:59 PM
That's what I took from the other thread as well. So the internal lock satisfies it, or not?

Either way I sent an email to Turners to see what their EXACT policy is. I'll post the reply if I get one.

halifax
07-30-2010, 1:04 PM
That's what I took from the other thread as well. So the internal lock satisfies it, or not?

Either way I sent an email to Turners to see what their EXACT policy is. I'll post the reply if I get one.

I posted this about Internal Locks and the DOJ (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=4629449&postcount=7)

Cokebottle
07-30-2010, 1:11 PM
That's what I took from the other thread as well. So the internal lock satisfies it, or not?
I don't believe the internal lock qualifies.
I was referring to the cable/padlock provided by Ruger, Springfield, etc....

Donny1
07-30-2010, 1:13 PM
Thanks

ke6guj
07-30-2010, 1:49 PM
Also, how do built in locks apply to the law?

Thanksdepends on the lock.

That S&W lock mentioned above might not be on the FSD roster, but the Springfield ILS internal lock is on the roster. As such, no additional lock shoudl be required. But that didn't recently stop a SoCal shop from requiring that a PPT buyer buy an new lock:confused:

halifax
07-30-2010, 3:43 PM
depends on the lock.

That S&W lock mentioned above might not be on the FSD roster, but the Springfield ILS internal lock is on the roster. As such, no additional lock shoudl be required. But that didn't recently stop a SoCal shop from requiring that a PPT buyer buy an new lock:confused:

I'll be dipped. There is one in there.

Device Make: Springfield Armory
Device Model: I.L.S. (Integral Locking System)

This device will properly function with firearms that meet the following description:

Text Description: Factory installed on all Springfield Armory 1911 pistols which feature the I.L.S. (Integrated Locking System). The I.L.S. is certified for use when installed on all of the following 1911 models except the CRG Model 1911 and the Ultra Compact High Capacity 1911: Colt, Auto Ordnance, Charles Daly, Para Ordnance, Rock River Armory, Kimber, Les Baer, Wilson, Llama, STI International, SV Strayer Voigt, U.S.G.I., Argentin Manufacturer, Caspian Arms, Valtro, Ed Brown.

and/or the following firearm makes/models:


Device Make: Springfield Armory
Device Model: I.L.S. (Integral Locking System)
Firearm Make: All




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TESTED FIREARMS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No All firearms have been tested for this device.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CERTIFIED FIREARMS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No All firearms have been certified for this device.


I wonder if there are any others buried in that list.

Donny1
07-30-2010, 4:45 PM
I don't see how you found that. The search on the DOJ site is terrible.

halifax
07-30-2010, 5:07 PM
I don't see how you found that. The search on the DOJ site is terrible.

I don't think I would have if Jack hadn't mentioned the manufacturer specifically.

•Search by Firearm Safety Device Model --> Springfield Armory

kemasa
07-30-2010, 5:07 PM
If you listen to what the BATF says, although they have not officially printed it, the FFL is supposed to provide the lock, not the buyer nor the seller. I suspect that is why some FFLs demand that people buy a lock. The Federal law is poorly worded, to say the least. It could also be that they want to make more profit as well.

halifax
07-30-2010, 5:48 PM
If you listen to what the BATF says, although they have not officially printed it, the FFL is supposed to provide the lock, not the buyer nor the seller. I suspect that is why some FFLs demand that people buy a lock. The Federal law is poorly worded, to say the least. It could also be that they want to make more profit as well.

Does the law really say the dealer must be the provider?

18 U.S.C. 922(z), regarding secure gun storage or safety device, states in part that it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person other than any person licensed, unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device for that handgun at the time of the firearm sales transaction.

kemasa
07-30-2010, 7:37 PM
There is more to the law that just what you quoted. One sentence mentions that the FFL must provide, but the sentence you highlighted does not say who and is unclear. If the transferee has a safe, that does mean that "the transferee is provided"?

Remember, I did not say what the law says, just what the BATF says, specifically the BATF lawyer.

I do not think that the law requires the FFL to provide the lock OR the safe, but ...

Remember, it is not what the law says, but how it is enforced. Remember the 2nd Amendment.

halifax
07-30-2010, 8:46 PM
There is more to the law that just what you quoted. One sentence mentions that the FFL must provide, but the sentence you highlighted does not say who and is unclear. If the transferee has a safe, that does mean that "the transferee is provided"?

Remember, I did not say what the law says, just what the BATF says, specifically the BATF lawyer.

I do not think that the law requires the FFL to provide the lock OR the safe, but ...

Remember, it is not what the law says, but how it is enforced. Remember the 2nd Amendment.

I guess I'm too dense for that one.


Which sentence in the law says the dealer must provide it. I must have missed it.

tenpercentfirearms
07-30-2010, 10:42 PM
I want to know as some stated in the thread that if an approved lock is provided when the PPT is initiated, with out a receipt, will that fly?

Also, how do built in locks apply to the law?

Thanks

You need to be more specific. Who is providing the lock? If the lock is in the case with the gun when it comes in the door, then I would accept it as the seller provided it no different than if it was a factory new Glock with a lock provided.

If the buyer brings it in, I would not accept it for that transaction without a dated receipt.

I would however take the DAC CL551 lock from the buyer and throw it in a box of locks. I would then take out a Regal RC15 (or whatever the number is) and then provide the customer with that lock for the transaction.

Nothing prohibits me from giving people locks. Nothing prohibits customers from giving me locks out the kindness of their own hearts. In fact nothing is prohibited at all except for delivering a firearm without an approved FSD or signed affidavit (Federally, all handguns must now come with a lock).

Remember, (e) only gives you an exemption to (a).

As far as internal locks, if they are on the list, they apply. Now would they apply to a handgun for the federal law? That is a tough one. I would consider the internal lock a safety device.

Better yet, if the handgun has a safety device like a 1911 thumb safety or a Glock Safe Action Pistol trigger safety, that would seem to work too!!! :eek:

ke6guj
07-30-2010, 11:13 PM
Now would they apply to a handgun for the federal law? That is a tough one. I would consider the internal lock a safety device.

It appears it would.

(z) SECURE GUN STORAGE OR
SAFTEY DEVICE—
(1) IN GENERAL- Except as
Provided under paragraph (2), it shall
be unlawful for any licensed
importer, licensed manufacturer, or
licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or
transfer any handgun to any person
other than any person licensed under
this chapter, unless the transferee is
provided with a secure gun storage
or safety device (as defined in sec
tion 921(a)(34)) for than handgun.



921(a)(34) The term "secure gun storage
or safety device" means—
(A) a device that, when installed
on a firearm, is designed to prevent
the firearm from being operated without
first deactivating the device;
(B) a device incorporated into the
design of the firearm that is designed
to prevent the operation of the firearm
by anyone not having access to
the device; or
(C) a safe, gun safe, gun case,
lock box, or other device that is designed
to be or can be used to store
a firearm and that is designed to be
unlocked only by means of a key, a
combination, or other similar means.

sure looks like an internal lock would comply with 921(a)(34)(B) but I don't think that "Better yet, if the handgun has a safety device like a 1911 thumb safety or a Glock Safe Action Pistol trigger safety, that would seem to work too!!! " would be acceptable :D

tenpercentfirearms
07-31-2010, 7:57 AM
sure looks like an internal lock would comply with 921(a)(34)(B) but I don't think that "Better yet, if the handgun has a safety device like a 1911 thumb safety or a Glock Safe Action Pistol trigger safety, that would seem to work too!!! " would be acceptable :D

Bummer. Oh well.

kemasa
07-31-2010, 12:25 PM
I guess I'm too dense for that one.

Which sentence in the law says the dealer must provide it. I must have missed it.

Talk to the BATF attorney, not me. I don't think that the dealer has to provide it, but I am not the one who enforces it. The BATF has not done what is required either, but I can't do anything about that either.

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2006/04/042106-openletter-ffl-child-safety-locks.html

Page 2:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2006-03.pdf

Go look at CA PC 12020 and see what the law says and then look to see how it is enforced. That is just another example or many.

ke6guj
07-31-2010, 12:28 PM
The BATF has done what is required either, but I can't do anything about that either.

have they done what is required, or is that a typo?

ATF has prepared the regulation that will implement this statute. At this time, the regulation is pending approval by the Department of Justice and the Office of Management and Budget. The review process most likely will take several more months. Once the regulation is approved, ATF will publish an Interim Rule in the Federal Register regarding the new law. While the Interim Rule will not be published by April 24th, the requirement to “provide” a safety device with the transfer of any handgun is mandated beginning on that date pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 922(z). have the regulations ever been approved and published?

Donny1
07-31-2010, 12:33 PM
Thanks guys for all the info. I did just find out from the seller that a "factory" lock is included in the deal I'm doing this weekend.

Again, thanks for the lesson.

kemasa
07-31-2010, 12:40 PM
have they done what is required, or is that a typo?

have the regulations ever been approved and published?

That is what I am talking about. The answer is NO.

ke6guj
07-31-2010, 12:46 PM
I like how even though the regulations that implement the statute have not been approved and published, you are still required to comply with the statute.:confused:

Rob454
07-31-2010, 3:52 PM
So can you bring in your own lock from a store? Or is the receipt sufficient that you bought a gun lock in the last 30 days? I have a ton of locks a safe and I dont need anymore gun locks. Especially not for 15$ from the gun store for a lock that costs 1.50$

tenpercentfirearms
07-31-2010, 9:41 PM
So can you bring in your own lock from a store? Or is the receipt sufficient that you bought a gun lock in the last 30 days? I have a ton of locks a safe and I dont need anymore gun locks. Especially not for 15$ from the gun store for a lock that costs 1.50$

If you bring in the lock and you want to be exempt from (a), then you need a receipt showing your purchased it within 30 days so you can meet (e).

In my store, if you brought in a gun lock and gave it to me. I would make sure your handgun came with a different model gun lock.

I call it the trade in program.

Many dealers probably won't do that because they actually sell gun locks. I haven't sold one in probably three years.