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barrym66
07-29-2010, 10:59 PM
So much for the positive results of the UK gun ban(s)...finally, some common sense from he other side of the pond!

from http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-gun-owners-can-now-shoot-intruders--98813794.html

Irish gun owners can now shoot intruders
New bill is welcomed by police, rural groups
By
JAMES O'BRIEN IrishCentral.com Staff Writer

Irish homeowners can now legally use guns to defend themselves if their homes are attacked under new legislation.

The new home defense bill has moved the balance of rights back to the house owner if his home is broken into "where it should always have been", say top Irish police.

The police association of superintendents and inspectors, the AGSI, stated that “the current situation, which legally demands a house owner retreat from an intruder, was intolerable".

The new bill was published by Justice Minister Dermot Ahern yesterday. Under the bill homeowners will be allowed to use "reasonable" force against intruders to defend themselves, others or their property. This includes lethal force, depending on the circumstances.

Justice Minister Dermot Ahern stated that house owners could use guns in self-defense, especially if the intruders were armed but said it would ultimately be a matter for the courts to resolve.

The bill also clarifies that a house owner will not be required to retreat from an intruder. and that intruders injured as a result of reasonable force won’t be able to sue the house owner.

"The bill is welcomed because it aims to clarify the entitlements of a homeowner when faced with the situation where an uninvited intruder has entered the home," AGSI vice-president Dan Hanley told the Irish Examiner.

"The bill aims to shift the balance of rights back to the homeowner where it should always have been. It is intolerable a homeowner should be compelled to retreat in front of an intruder who has entered the home and who may have malign intentions towards the homeowner, the family or the home owner’s property."

Hanley added: "It is ridiculous to suggest the bill, which attempts to redress a serious legal imbalance, would provide a license to kill or a ‘have-a-go’ charter for homeowners, the vast majority of whom will continue to act with good sense and in a peaceful way."

Minister Ahern also dismissed the suggestion the bill was a "license to kill". He stated it merely allowed for lethal force provided it was justifiable.

Rural Link, the national network of community groups in rural Ireland welcomed the bill, saying it was "sensible legislation giving much needed clarity to homeowners on their rights when confronted by intruders".

The Irish Council for Civil Liberties however, stated it would inspect the bill to establish that it was "human-rights compliant".

The need for new legislation became evident after an intruder, John Ward, was shot dead while on the land and dwelling area of Mayo farmer, Pádraig Nally.

Nally was convicted of manslaughter, but his conviction was later overturned after a public outcry.

Burglaries in Ireland increased from 23,600 in 2007 to 26,800 in 2009. Violent burglaries rose from 255 to 363 in the same period.

Gray Peterson
07-29-2010, 11:02 PM
The effects of Heller are being felt worldwide.

Foulball
07-29-2010, 11:06 PM
I love this part:

"The police association of superintendents and inspectors, the AGSI, stated that “the current situation, which legally demands a house owner retreat from an intruder, was intolerable."

Awesome to see the police standing up for the homeowners.

adrenalinemedic
07-30-2010, 12:05 AM
Ireland isn't part of the UK, and has different (for better or worse) firearms laws.

ETA: Northern Ireland also has different laws than the rest of the UK (which, unlike the Republic of Ireland, it's part of) in that it's the only part of the UK where pistols aren't banned.

Pont
07-30-2010, 12:14 AM
Yes, but it's one thing to scoff at the former-colonials across the pond and quite another to maintain an untenable position when your nextdoor neighbors are showing the right way.

nick
07-30-2010, 12:17 AM
Looks like Ireland passed castle doctrine before CA. How ironic :)

CCWFacts
07-30-2010, 12:42 AM
The effects of Heller are being felt worldwide.

Wow, yes, I guess that's a factor in it. That's cool! Good for them. Once they establish that self-defense is a justification for owning firearms, then it's pretty easy to make the next step that non-sporting firearms (pump shotguns, handguns) should be available for that purpose.

jl123
07-30-2010, 12:49 AM
Looks like Ireland passed castle doctrine before CA. How ironic :)
:confused:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine#States_with_a_Castle_Law
# California (California Penal Code § 198.5 sets forth that unlawful, forcible entry into one's residence by someone not a member of the household creates the presumption that the resident held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury should he or she use deadly force against the intruder. This would make the homicide justifiable under CPC § 197 [4]. CALCRIM 506 gives the instruction, "A defendant is not required to retreat. He or she is entitled to stand his or her ground and defend himself or herself and, if reasonably necessary, to pursue an assailant until the danger ... has passed. This is so even if safety could have been achieved by retreating." However, it also states that "[People v. Ceballos] specifically held that burglaries which 'do not reasonably create a fear of great bodily harm' are not sufficient 'cause for exaction of human life.'” The court held that because a "trap-gun" was used, the doctrine did not apply. [5]

N6ATF
07-30-2010, 1:05 AM
I thought I read in another thread here that in the Republic of Ireland you can jump through a bunch of hoops to own a gun for specific reasons, but not one of those is personal protection?

jshoebot
07-30-2010, 1:16 AM
Sounds like they're getting some "reasonable" deregulation :)

"Sensible" gun laws :)

jl123
07-30-2010, 1:21 AM
I read a couple things that makes it look like they're basically may issue with handguns. Some areas allow citizens to own handguns much more liberally than other areas.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1120/1227026442631.html

Of course politicians are trying to use the actions of criminals to try to restrict legal ownership. Notice that guy Ahern above is also quoted in this article......and it isn't good. Sigh.

kcbrown
07-30-2010, 1:40 AM
The bill also clarifies that a house owner will not be required to retreat from an intruder. and that intruders injured as a result of reasonable force won’t be able to sue the house owner.
I'd bet the assessment of "reasonable force" is going to be done by the courts and in the general case, "reasonable force" is going to be assessed in such a way that the average homeowner is going to be screwed. E.g., "shooting him was excessive force since you could have just used pepper spray on him!" or some bullsh*t like that.

You know, kinda like how it would be done here in California if we had the same law with the same provisions.

But maybe Ireland's courts are more sensible than I'm expecting...

jl123
07-30-2010, 3:07 AM
I'd bet the assessment of "reasonable force" is going to be done by the courts and in the general case, "reasonable force" is going to be assessed in such a way that the average homeowner is going to be screwed. E.g., "shooting him was excessive force since you could have just used pepper spray on him!" or some bullsh*t like that.

You know, kinda like how it would be done here in California if we had the same law with the same provisions.

But maybe Ireland's courts are more sensible than I'm expecting...

Ummm....read my first post in this thread.

outland
07-30-2010, 3:18 AM
Israel??? did i miss something?

AYEAREFIFTEEN
07-30-2010, 9:30 AM
The bill also clarifies that a house owner will not be required to retreat from an intruder. and that intruders injured as a result of reasonable force won’t be able to sue the house owner.

I think I like that part the most.

gose
07-30-2010, 9:40 AM
I read a couple things that makes it look like they're basically may issue with handguns. Some areas allow citizens to own handguns much more liberally than other areas.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1120/1227026442631.html
Of course politicians are trying to use the actions of criminals to try to restrict legal ownership. Notice that guy Ahern above is also quoted in this article......and it isn't good. Sigh.

On paper they're "May issue", but in reality, no handgun permits are issued and no permits are renewed since sometime last year.

Notice that this is a permit to buy and keep a handgun, not to carry and it's now pretty much impossible for anyone to buy a handgun in Ireland.

nick
07-30-2010, 9:43 AM
:confused:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine#States_with_a_Castle_Law

A big part of castle doctrine is the immunity from civil lawsuits, if the shoot is found to be justified. That is one of those things lacking in CA. Also, while CA PC states that you can defend your property, case law says the opposite. I won't even go into why property rights, including defending one's property, are important. So, based on CA law lacking those two provisions, I'd say that CA has about 50% of the castle doctrine.

From the article, both of those provisions were included in the Irish law.

gose
07-30-2010, 9:43 AM
I read a couple things that makes it look like they're basically may issue with handguns. Some areas allow citizens to own handguns much more liberally than other areas.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1120/1227026442631.html
Of course politicians are trying to use the actions of criminals to try to restrict legal ownership. Notice that guy Ahern above is also quoted in this article......and it isn't good. Sigh.

On paper they're "May issue", but in reality, no handgun permits are issued and no permits are renewed since sometime last year.

Notice that this is a permit to buy and keep a handgun, not to carry and it's now pretty much impossible for anyone to buy a handgun in Ireland.

Btw, here's the updated law that was passed, in case someone actually cares about facts ;)

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/bills/2009/2909/document1.htm

VictorFranko
07-30-2010, 9:49 AM
Irish gun owners can now shoot intruders

Do Englishman count as intruders?

cmth
07-30-2010, 11:30 AM
I have some Irish acquaintances who immigrated here back during the troubles. Their family back home own plenty of guns which they didn't ask permission to own, nor will they ever give them over willingly. Lots of handguns and freedom defense rifles like Armalite AR-18s. They aren't the only ones, either.

Wherryj
07-30-2010, 11:39 AM
So much for the positive results of the UK gun ban(s)...finally, some common sense from he other side of the pond!

from http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-gun-owners-can-now-shoot-intruders--98813794.html

The police association of superintendents and inspectors, the AGSI, stated that “the current situation, which legally demands a house owner retreat from an intruder, was intolerable".

I know that this was the intention of the law, but I'm actually a bit surprised that politicians and law enforcement would openly state it as such. You are legally required to "retreat" from an intruder? What if the intruder intends serious harm and you aren't able to "retreat" enough to avoid injury? Is that still YOUR fault?

Wherryj
07-30-2010, 11:41 AM
Do Englishman count as intruders?

I know a doc that is originally from Ireland and I know for a fact that HE would consider it so.

I remember getting an earful for suggesting that Ireland was GEOGRAPHICALLY part of the islands that are politically known as the UK. LOL

Colt
07-30-2010, 11:53 AM
Do Englishman count as intruders?

I know they absolutely count as intruders in Scotland, and from those I know, I assume they count that way in Ireland as well...

7x57
07-30-2010, 12:18 PM
I know nothing about the obstacles to actually exercising this privilege (and it clearly is a privilege in Ireland). I do recall an article from a few years ago, however, banning realistic self-defense practice. No two in the body and one in the head of man-shaped targets, IIRC.

Perhaps Ireland thinks untrained self-defense is more socially desirable than putting the bullets where they should go? :rolleyes:

7x57

kcbrown
07-30-2010, 2:12 PM
Ummm....read my first post in this thread.

The one about California castle doctrine? :D

I did say "if we had the same law with the same provisions".

VictorFranko
07-30-2010, 3:49 PM
I know a doc that is originally from Ireland and I know for a fact that HE would consider it so.

I remember getting an earful for suggesting that Ireland was GEOGRAPHICALLY part of the islands that are politically known as the UK. LOL

I know they absolutely count as intruders in Scotland, and from those I know, I assume they count that way in Ireland as well...

I actually had a distant cousin who was a big wheel in the IRA.
He was in an English prison and they boys rescued him by flying in with a helicopter while he was in the exercise yard.
Hollywood made a movie about it with Charles Bronson called "Breakout", but they made it a Mexican prison and changed the whole story.
Probably not to embarrass the freaking Limeys.

Manic Moran
07-30-2010, 4:19 PM
paper they're "May issue", but in reality, no handgun permits are issued and no permits are renewed since sometime last year

Actually, there have been some renewals. Check out the Shooting forum on Boards.ie.

The police association of superintendents and inspectors, the AGSI, stated that “the current situation, which legally demands a house owner retreat from an intruder, was intolerable".

This is utterly incorrect, and indeed, the entire article is incorrect from the very first line.

Irish homeowners can now legally use guns to defend themselves

In actuality, the new law says very little which wasn't already the law of the land in the country. It simply codeifies it into legislation. The immunity bit may be new.

The controlling caselaw is DPP vs Barnes (http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/09859e7a3f34669680256ef3004a27de/aded5c6b04f391478025725d00516c14?OpenDocument). (DPP = Dept. of Public Prosecution, Irish version of the DA) From Dec 2006.

Allow me to offer some choice quotes from the Judge's opinion in this case.

Considering the heinous and inherently aggressive nature of the crime of burglary in a dwellinghouse...

This is that a person’s dwellinghouse is far more than bricks and mortar; it is the home of a person and his or her family, dependents or guests (if any) and is entitled to a very high degree of protection at law for this reason. Most of the cases on the topic relate to the restrictions which this puts on the State itself (most obviously the police force) in entering a person’s home. But the home is, of course, also entitled to protection from criminals.

It may be important to note that this constituted him not merely a trespasser but a trespasser in a dwellinghouse which he had entered forcibly with intent to steal from it.

In acting in this way, Barnes was not merely committing a crime but was invading Mr. Forrestal’s constitutional rights. Article 40.5 of the Constitution, under the heading “Inviobility of the dwelling” provides as follows:
“The dwelling of every citizen is invioble and shall not be forcibly entered save in accordance with law”.

An occupier in the presence of a burglar (whether the burglar knows that he is there or not), is in a position of very acute difficulty. Firstly, his dwellinghouse has been violated and this is not merely a crime at law but an invasion of his personal rights. Such a thing, especially if repeated, may in itself gravely undermine the wellbeing even of a strong and healthy occupant, and still more that of an older or feeble one. The offence of burglary committed in a dwellinghouse is in every instance an act of aggression, an attack on the personal rights of the citizen as well as a public crime and is a violation of him or her.

But it is also necessary to say, in the words of an English academic authority:
“When the householder finds himself in the presences of a burglar in the still of the night, his position is exactly the same as it was for his nineteenth eighteenth or even sixteenth century ancestors. The police force is of no service. If he has a telephone, the noise made in operating it will probably alert the burglar, who may well be of a violent disposition. The householder knows that he must make the choice between attempting to arrest or scare off the burglar in which case he may find himself in serious danger, if the burglar turns out to be violent, and attacking the burglar first without a warning and possibly by inflicting death thus ensuring the safety of himself and his family”. (See Lanham Defence of Property in the Criminal Law [1966] Crim. L.R. 368

Every burglary in a dwellinghouse is an act of aggression. The circumstances may make this element of aggression more or less patent but the violation of a citizen’s dwellinghouse is just that, a violation and an act of aggression no matter what the other circumstances.

A person who commits such a violation exposes himself to various legal penalties, if he is detected and convicted. But that is not the limit of his exposure. Although he is not liable to be killed by the householder simply for being a burglar, he is an aggressor and may expect to be lawfully met with retaliatory force to drive him off or to immobilise or detain him and end the threat which he offers to the personal rights of the householder and his or her family or guests

As noted above, the special protection afforded to the dwellinghouse dates back to time immemorial. It has been expressed in various ways, none perhaps so well known, even outside legal circles as that in Semaynes case (1604) 5 Co. Rep. 91a:
“That the house of everyone is to him as his castle and fortress, as well for his defence against injury and violence as for his repose…”.
This is the origin of the “castle doctrine” prominent especially in U.S. law.

It is of course common experience that there will be occasions when a person might well be advised to flee, but that is a matter for his own discretion and he can never be under a legal obligation to do so. Equally, there will be other occasions when a person might be ill advised to flee, perhaps because of exterior conditions or perhaps because of the fear of meeting an accomplice of the known aggressor, or being pursued by the latter, and attacked when he is outside his dwellinghouse and to that extent in a worse or more dubious position.

It is, in our view, quite inconsistent with the constitutional doctrine of the inviolability of a dwellinghouse that a householder or other lawful occupant could be ever be under a legal obligation to flee the dwellinghouse or, as it might be put in more contemporary language, to retreat from it. It follows from this, in turn, that such a person can never be in a worse position in point of law because he has decided to stand his ground in his house.


But even apart from that it would be observed that the statutory formula itself partakes of both a subjective element - force “such as is reasonable in the circumstances as her or she perceives them to be…” and an objective element - the provisions of s.1(2) of the 1997 Act which require a court or jury to have regard to the presence or absence of reasonable grounds for the belief that the level of force used was no more than was reasonably necessary in the circumstances. But it must always be borne in mind that the burglar must take the occupant as he finds him and that in many cases it will in practice take the deployment of grossly disproportionate force, or evidence of actual malice (as in the well known Martin case in Great Britain) to fix the householder with liability. He or she has, after all, been deliberately subjected to an experience which will shock even the most robust and might make many irrational with terror.


NTM

a1c
07-30-2010, 5:38 PM
A lot of European countries, including many where gun control is very strict, actually have laws similar to the castle doctrine - which, after all, is named after a European concept.

andalusi
07-30-2010, 6:45 PM
I remember getting an earful for suggesting that Ireland was GEOGRAPHICALLY part of the islands that are politically known as the UK. LOL

And well you should have. The islands are the British Isles. The United Kingdom refers only to the polities, not any geographical features, and in fact the full official name is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The UK does not in any way refer to the island of Ireland.

Wherryj
07-30-2010, 7:34 PM
And well you should have. The islands are the British Isles. The United Kingdom refers only to the polities, not any geographical features, and in fact the full official name is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The UK does not in any way refer to the island of Ireland.

I just mentioned that Ireland was geographically close to England actually. That seemed to be a not exactly wise thing to say to an Irishman...LOL

It was a discussion about the global conveyor and the theories proposed by some that if there is enough ocean warming, the lack of temperature gradients could shut down the global conveyor and cause a min-ice age for the islands in that geographic portion of the globe.

Somehow, Ireland being included in the freeze along with England was unpalatable. I believe that the exact idea was that Ireland had nothing to do with England, so it wouldn't be involved with England's iceage.

They are all still islands in the area called the UK. Politics carves up domains, but the land is the same.

cmth
07-30-2010, 10:34 PM
On the subject of what the Irish think of their insular neighbors, don't ever order a black & tan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_and_Tans) in an Irish bar. You may not leave with all of your teeth intact. Ask for a half & half instead.

gunsmith
07-30-2010, 11:25 PM
I lived in Cork for two years, except for a few private remarks Irish & English got along fine.
( edited to add) in rural west cork there was common ownership of .22's and shotties but in cork city every single person was for gun control and thought "yanks" were "mad" fer guns.

psssniper
07-31-2010, 1:38 AM
Potato guns I assume?? :D

Mulay El Raisuli
07-31-2010, 7:58 AM
I read a couple things that makes it look like they're basically may issue with handguns. Some areas allow citizens to own handguns much more liberally than other areas.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1120/1227026442631.html

Of course politicians are trying to use the actions of criminals to try to restrict legal ownership. Notice that guy Ahern above is also quoted in this article......and it isn't good. Sigh.


I don't know about that. From the dates of the articles, it looks like maybe Mr. Ahern is among the converted.


The effects of Heller are being felt worldwide.


Good! Maybe the Supreme Courts overseas can start quoting ours instead of the other way around.


Do Englishman count as intruders?


LOL!


Potato guns I assume?? :D


Also, LOL!


The Raisuli

Buckeye Dan
08-08-2010, 6:45 PM
Irish homeowners can now legally use guns to defend themselves if their homes are attacked under new legislation.

Quote:
Irish gun owners can now shoot intruders
New bill is welcomed by police, rural groups
By
JAMES O'BRIEN IrishCentral.com Staff Writer

Irish homeowners can now legally use guns to defend themselves if their homes are attacked under new legislation.

The new home defense bill has moved the balance of rights back to the house owner if his home is broken into "where it should always have been", say top Irish police.

The police association of superintendents and inspectors, the AGSI, stated that “the current situation, which legally demands a house owner retreat from an intruder, was intolerable".

The new bill was published by Justice Minister Dermot Ahern yesterday. Under the bill homeowners will be allowed to use "reasonable" force against intruders to defend themselves, others or their property. This includes lethal force, depending on the circumstances.

Justice Minister Dermot Ahern stated that house owners could use guns in self-defense, especially if the intruders were armed but said it would ultimately be a matter for the courts to resolve.

The bill also clarifies that a house owner will not be required to retreat from an intruder. and that intruders injured as a result of reasonable force won’t be able to sue the house owner.

"The bill is welcomed because it aims to clarify the entitlements of a homeowner when faced with the situation where an uninvited intruder has entered the home," AGSI vice-president Dan Hanley told the Irish Examiner.

"The bill aims to shift the balance of rights back to the homeowner where it should always have been. It is intolerable a homeowner should be compelled to retreat in front of an intruder who has entered the home and who may have malign intentions towards the homeowner, the family or the home owner’s property."

Hanley added: "It is ridiculous to suggest the bill, which attempts to redress a serious legal imbalance, would provide a license to kill or a ‘have-a-go’ charter for homeowners, the vast majority of whom will continue to act with good sense and in a peaceful way."

Minister Ahern also dismissed the suggestion the bill was a "license to kill". He stated it merely allowed for lethal force provided it was justifiable.

Rural Link, the national network of community groups in rural Ireland welcomed the bill, saying it was "sensible legislation giving much needed clarity to homeowners on their rights when confronted by intruders".

The Irish Council for Civil Liberties however, stated it would inspect the bill to establish that it was "human-rights compliant".

The need for new legislation became evident after an intruder, John Ward, was shot dead while on the land and dwelling area of Mayo farmer, Pádraig Nally.

Nally was convicted of manslaughter, but his conviction was later overturned after a public outcry.

Burglaries in Ireland increased from 23,600 in 2007 to 26,800 in 2009. Violent burglaries rose from 255 to 363 in the same period.

Source: http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-gun-owners-can-now-shoot-intruders--98813794.html

Big Jake
08-08-2010, 6:49 PM
I would be curious to see how 2A in Ireland pans out!

JBird33
08-08-2010, 7:10 PM
Good for them. Hope to see more of this the whole world over.

diginit
08-08-2010, 8:34 PM
2 points! If any thug or lawmaker that thinks a homeowner will run and leave their family upstairs to the mercy of the intruder because the law says they must, Has a FK'N screw loose. Forgive them, Lord, For they know not what they do.
They are STUPID!

stag1500
08-08-2010, 9:04 PM
Doesn't Ireland have a gun ban like the UK?

U2BassAce
08-09-2010, 6:33 AM
I have some Irish acquaintances who immigrated here back during the troubles. Their family back home own plenty of guns which they didn't ask permission to own, nor will they ever give them over willingly. Lots of handguns and freedom defense rifles like Armalite AR-18s. They aren't the only ones, either.

Northern Ireland.

Manic Moran
08-09-2010, 8:46 PM
Good for them. Hope to see more of this the whole world over.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4645228.stm

NTM

Manic Moran
08-09-2010, 8:49 PM
Northern Ireland.

The entire country is only 250 miles long. Plenty of strongholds down South for people to commute up and do their violence.

Doesn't Ireland have a gun ban like the UK?

No. It used to be stricter than the UK, now it's looser.

NTM