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View Full Version : Once and For All: Curio & Relic FFL in CA?


Kynoch
07-29-2010, 1:01 PM
If I apply for a Curio & Relic FFL (03 FFL) would there be any problem in being approved because I live in CA?

Can I expect any other difficulty or downside? Does holding a 03 FFL give law enforcement any special rights about entering my home?

Can I purchase a bona-fide C&R firearm (directly from ATF's list) and have it delivered to my door here in CA?

croc4
07-29-2010, 1:14 PM
no problems what so ever,


Yes you can have them delivered to your door if they are indeed deemed C&R, just need someone their to sign for them b(ased on my experience).

You have the option of being audited either in your home or at the agents office, audits are very very rare overall. Just keep good records as required and you'll be fine. But they cannot enter your home any easier if you were not a 03 holder.

I believe being an 03 will skirt around ab962 (I think) but based on on going cases this may shortly be moot.

one word of caution, buy another or a bigger safe, these damn C&R's are worse than rabbits


croc4

D-Man
07-29-2010, 1:27 PM
03 FFL + COE will skirt AB962. Also skirts the one handgun every 30 days as well. In addition Brownells, Midway USA, and other sites give you dealer pricing. Well worth the $30 for 3 years.

paul0660
07-29-2010, 1:35 PM
Can I purchase a bona-fide C&R firearm (directly from ATF's list) and have it delivered to my door here in CA?

If it is a fifty year old longgun, yes. Younger, no. Handgun, no.

wildhawker
07-29-2010, 1:39 PM
Why skirt it (AB962) when you can destroy it (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=326231)?

RomanDad
07-29-2010, 2:02 PM
I have my 03 and my COE....

I really am going to have to try two handguns in 30 days.

fd15k
07-29-2010, 2:07 PM
If it is a fifty year old longgun, yes. Younger, no. Handgun, no.

Could you remind me where does it say C&R holder can't mailorder any C&R (by age or per ATF list) long gun from out of state ?

mtptwo
07-29-2010, 2:12 PM
Excuse my ignorance, but what does COE stand for?

fd15k
07-29-2010, 2:18 PM
Excuse my ignorance, but what does COE stand for?

Certificate of Eligibility

www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/coeapp.pdf

hoffmang
07-29-2010, 4:27 PM
I have my 03 and my COE....

I really am going to have to try two handguns in 30 days.

Done it once. Feels good sticking it to LCAV. Thanks Irwin!

-Gene

M. D. Van Norman
07-29-2010, 4:39 PM
Could you remind me where does it say C&R holder can’t mailorder any C&R (by age or per ATF list) long gun from out of state?

It doesn’t … at least not without a little stretch of the imagination. Then again, a DA could indict a ham sandwich …

Mssr. Eleganté
07-29-2010, 8:27 PM
Could you remind me where does it say C&R holder can't mailorder any C&R (by age or per ATF list) long gun from out of state ?

It's California Penal Code Section 12072(d)...

12072(d) Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's license issued pursuant to Section 12071, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer of that firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Section 12082.

hoffmang
07-29-2010, 8:48 PM
It's California Penal Code Section 12072(d)...

Doesn't Penal Code 12078(t)(2) allow 03 FFL's to acquire 50 year old or older long arms interstate without DROS since they are exempt from Federal interstate transfer restrictions?


(2) Subdivision (d) and paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of
Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or
transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun, which is a curio
or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date,
but not including replicas thereof, as defined in Section 478.11
of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.


-Gene

Mssr. Eleganté
07-29-2010, 8:57 PM
Doesn't Penal Code 12078(t)(2) allow 03 FFL's to acquire 50 year old or older long arms interstate without DROS since they are exempt from Federal interstate transfer restrictions?

Yes. If it wasn't for 12078(t)(2) then California C&R FFLs would have to have all of their mail order purchases shipped to a California licensed dealer for transfer. 12078(t)(2) is what allows California 03FFLs receive 50+ year old C&R long guns directly from out of state. The 03FFL exempts us from the Federal restriction on interstate transfers and 12078(t)(2) exempts us from the California restriction on all firearms transfers.

While outside of California, a California C&R FFL is not bound by California law at all. That's why they can buy C&R handguns and C&R long guns of any age while traveling outside of California. And California has no prohibition on residents traveling into California with firearms that they own, as long as the firearms are in California-legal configuration and as long as handguns brought in are registered in a timely manner. That's why C&R FFLs can bring the guns they purchased outside of California back home with them.

ke6guj
07-29-2010, 8:58 PM
Doesn't Penal Code 12078(t)(2) allow 03 FFL's to acquire 50 year old or older long arms interstate without DROS since they are exempt from Federal interstate transfer restrictions?



-Geneyup, but only those 50+ year-old long guns are exempt from 12072(d). All C&R handguns and those C&R long guns <50-years old don't fall under the 12072(d) exemption, and must go through a CA dealer.

-hanko
07-29-2010, 8:58 PM
Doesn't Penal Code 12078(t)(2) allow 03 FFL's to acquire 50 year old or older long arms interstate without DROS since they are exempt from Federal interstate transfer restrictions?

-Gene
That is the correct interpretation of the law;).

-hanko

M. D. Van Norman
07-30-2010, 9:56 AM
Just don’t forget to pay any applicable use taxes. ;)

mzimmers
07-30-2010, 10:20 AM
03 FFL + COE will skirt AB962. Also skirts the one handgun every 30 days as well. In addition Brownells, Midway USA, and other sites give you dealer pricing. Well worth the $30 for 3 years.

I assume you're talking about the C&R FFL. The COE is $22/year, plus the initial cost of fingerprinting. Still probably worth it, though.

vandal
07-30-2010, 2:38 PM
C&R audits are on the upswing because there are fewer FFLs in ca and the ATF needs to keep their people busy.

If you think c&r + coe exemption to AB962 is going to be recognized by out of state vendors you're kidding yourself.

Kynoch
08-07-2010, 9:11 AM
Why do the feds want me to send a copy of my C&R FFL application to the chief law enforcement officer in my local county?

I hate to sound paranoid but this bothers me. Am I going to go on some sorta hit list if I apply for a C&R FFL?

Kynoch
08-07-2010, 9:29 AM
Yes. If it wasn't for 12078(t)(2) then California C&R FFLs would have to have all of their mail order purchases shipped to a California licensed dealer for transfer. 12078(t)(2) is what allows California 03FFLs receive 50+ year old C&R long guns directly from out of state. The 03FFL exempts us from the Federal restriction on interstate transfers and 12078(t)(2) exempts us from the California restriction on all firearms transfers.

While outside of California, a California C&R FFL is not bound by California law at all. That's why they can buy C&R handguns and C&R long guns of any age while traveling outside of California. And California has no prohibition on residents traveling into California with firearms that they own, as long as the firearms are in California-legal configuration and as long as handguns brought in are registered in a timely manner. That's why C&R FFLs can bring the guns they purchased outside of California back home with them.

What registration is that? :confused:

56Chevy
08-07-2010, 10:38 AM
Why do the feds want me to send a copy of my C&R FFL application to the chief law enforcement officer in my local county?

I hate to sound paranoid but this bothers me. Am I going to go on some sorta hit list if I apply for a C&R FFL?
I just mailed mine to the sheriff of my county (found his name and address on the internet). They probably tossed it into the trash without even looking at it.

ke6guj
08-07-2010, 12:27 PM
Why do the feds want me to send a copy of my C&R FFL application to the chief law enforcement officer in my local county?that is part of the check&balances process so that if your CLEO knew of something that would prohibit you, but might not show up when the feds do a NCIS check on you, the CLEO can contact ATF about it.

I hate to sound paranoid but this bothers me. Am I going to go on some sorta hit list if I apply for a C&R FFL?yup, you'll be added to the "gun nut" list like the rest of us:TFH:


What registration is that? :confused:
new residents must register any handguns they bring into the state, http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/ab991frm.pdf
CA 03FFLs that aquire C&R handguns out of state and bring them back to CA must register those handguns, http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/curioapp.pdf

chiefcrash
08-07-2010, 12:28 PM
Why do the feds want me to send a copy of my C&R FFL application to the chief law enforcement officer in my local county?

I hate to sound paranoid but this bothers me. Am I going to go on some sorta hit list if I apply for a C&R FFL?

The general idea is if the CLEO knows something (like you're under investigation for murder), they will call up the ATF and tell them.

When I sent my CLEO copy, the sheriff called me up and asked what he was supposed to do with it. After I explained he really didn't have to do anything, the response was along the lines of "sweet, less work for me. catch ya later"


Other stuff to note:
ATF can inspect your C&R collection. ATF can NOT inspect your non-C&R guns. Other LEOs (including the CA DOJ) can't just swing by and inspect. Even the ATF can't just swing by, they have to call and set up an appointment.

Also: if you buy a C&R handgun while out of state, remember to send in the stupid little form and fee to the CA DOJ within 5 days of your return to CA. (nothing required for long guns)

stitchnicklas
08-07-2010, 4:07 PM
c&r handguns can be purchased out of state in person by you ,brought back and fill out the doj form mail 19 dollar check with it,mail order and internet handguns must be shipped to a 01ffl dealer then you can go pick them up and go home same day<03ffl+coe> only.

Kynoch
08-07-2010, 4:08 PM
The general idea is if the CLEO knows something (like you're under investigation for murder), they will call up the ATF and tell them.
That actually makes some sense, thanks...

When I sent my CLEO copy, the sheriff called me up and asked what he was supposed to do with it. After I explained he really didn't have to do anything, the response was along the lines of "sweet, less work for me. catch ya later"


Other stuff to note:
ATF can inspect your C&R collection. ATF can NOT inspect your non-C&R guns. Other LEOs (including the CA DOJ) can't just swing by and inspect. Even the ATF can't just swing by, they have to call and set up an appointment.

I have no problem with that. I was told one can also request the meeting take place in THEIR office? Do you just drag your guns and paperwork to them?

ke6guj
08-07-2010, 4:13 PM
I have no problem with that. I was told one can also request the meeting take place in THEIR office? Do you just drag your guns and paperwork to them?

yes.

Paul S
08-07-2010, 9:15 PM
Why do the feds want me to send a copy of my C&R FFL application to the chief law enforcement officer in my local county?

I hate to sound paranoid but this bothers me. Am I going to go on some sorta hit list if I apply for a C&R FFL?

As I have learned here on CGN...while the sheriff is the chief law enforcement officer of each county in California...for 03FFL application purposes the chief law enforcement officer who gets copy 2 is the head of the law enforcement agency which responds to your home when you call the 'cops'.
Now of course if you live in the county rather than within the city limits (where the police respond) then yes indeed mail the copy to the sheriff.

If you already knew this..sorry to have used up bandwidth needlessly. :p

Paul S

ke6guj
08-07-2010, 9:20 PM
I have never heard of a problem if a person who lives in a city (with a Chief of Police) sends the CLEO copy to the Sheriff instead.

Paul S
08-07-2010, 10:55 PM
I have never heard of a problem if a person who lives in a city (with a Chief of Police) sends the CLEO copy to the Sheriff instead.

Don't know that there is a problem with doing that. Just relayed the info that was passed along to me here on CGN. FWIW when I applied for my 03FFL I used the Fresno Police Chief as the "Chief Law Enforcement Officer" and received my 03FFL in 23 days. :D ( Yes..I live i n the city :(

So I guess the bottom line is...its all good!

Paul S

Mssr. Eleganté
08-08-2010, 4:02 AM
When it all comes down to it, realize that your application is going to be processed by some lady sitting in an office in Martinsburg, West Virginia. What are the chances she is going to look at the bottom of your application and say, "Wait a minute! The Chief Law Enforcement Officer of Bakersfield is Chief of Police Greg Williamson, not Sheriff Youngblood." :p

Since the implementation of the NICS system, I doubt that the BATF pays much attention to the CLEO section of the application.

Kynoch
08-08-2010, 9:26 AM
As I have learned here on CGN...while the sheriff is the chief law enforcement officer of each county in California...for 03FFL application purposes the chief law enforcement officer who gets copy 2 is the head of the law enforcement agency which responds to your home when you call the 'cops'.
Now of course if you live in the county rather than within the city limits (where the police respond) then yes indeed mail the copy to the sheriff.

If you already knew this..sorry to have used up bandwidth needlessly. :p

Paul S

Well, which is it? The county sheriff is the CLEO where I live but I call the city PD with any problems. The city PD is not the CLEO. Where does the application say to call the city PD if you live in their jurisdiction?

devilinblack
08-08-2010, 12:24 PM
If you live in a city that's served by its own PD, then the Chief of that department is your CLEO and that's who gets the copy of your application. Most likely it will go directly into the trash.