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Charlie50
07-29-2010, 7:57 AM
I am not clear regarding CA assault weapon laws regarding an off list rifle that is not complete (missing some critical component) such a bolt, firing pin is it in violation of the law to possess? For example if I had a AK variant with a folding stock, without a bullet button, stock not "fixed" but no bolt installed, in my home is it legal? How about transporting same incomplete, non-firing example in my car? What about transporting (same rifle) in normal cleaning take down mode with no bolt or fiing pin in possesion? :confused:

choprzrul
07-29-2010, 8:15 AM
I have been wondering the same thing. Kinda like in the movie "Shooter" where short firing pins are used. If a gun is incapable of firing a round, does it not fall outside the laws definition of a firearm, i.e. wording such as "...capable of firing..."?

**EDIT**

Now this really has me thinking. My Taurus has a lock. When locked, that gun is NOT capable of firing anything.
12001. (a) (1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol,"
"revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person"
shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a
weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any
explosion, or other form of combustion,...

When in the locked position, the handgun is specifically 'designed' NOT to expell a projectile. Hence, would it be perfectly legal to carry it in any fashion you decide?

.

tuolumnejim
07-29-2010, 8:15 AM
If what you have is a "named" reciever its a no-no here in the peoples republic, and it doesn't matter if its complete or not.
Above is unless you have a registered AW.

dieselpower
07-29-2010, 8:40 AM
Firearms banned by name. There is some debate on if a stripped named lower is banned, some say yes since its still a firearm, some say no since its not capable to fire.

After you clear the name and model laws, your firearm falls to the next set of laws which state:
Semi-automatic, centerfire rifle with detachable magazine.
If the firearm can not be placed in to this catagory when disassembled, it can not be identified as an AW.

The reverse can also be used against you. A complete lower with a bullet button, no upper and a 30rd magazine installed. Your arguement rests on "semi-automatic" lacking from the weapon.

Now, if a 29" rifle is missing the firing pin, you still have a
"A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches. "

Do not look past a DAs ability to overlook a simple missing firing pin. The farther you place the firearm outside of "working" the harder it would be for a DA to over look it.

The fact is you should go as far as your wallet and life allows. For me, I keep my firearms assembled and within the law. I avoid transporting in pieces..it might be FUD, but its what my wallet tell me to do. While cleaning, it can not be avioded. I will take my chances, No DA is going to push that as long as no other violations are noted by the arresting officer.

Scarecrow Repair
07-29-2010, 9:05 AM
If what you have is a "named" reciever its a no-no here in the peoples republic, and it doesn't matter if its complete or not.
Above is unless you have a registered AW.

He said it's off-list.

bwiese
07-29-2010, 9:51 AM
An off-list semiauto rifle missing one or more operational components (such as a bolt carrier, hammer, trigger, etc.)
and which are not 12276.1PC 'characteristic feature' (pistol grip, folder stock, flash hider, etc.) will likely be regarded
as a "broken AW' and not as a 'non-AW'.

[There was an LA-area case involving an Imbel FAL awhile back where the dude tried to remove the bolt carrier to
take it out of AW status; aside from other 'coloring' issues, he was found possessing/mporting an unregistered AW.]
.
An off-list rifle 30" or longer and missing enough 12276.1PC 'characterstic features' (pistol grip, flash hider, telestock,
etc.) - or with characteristic feature count obviated by nondetachable magazine usage - will not be considerable as
an AW - this is why we can have OLL rifles!
. .
An off-list rifle that is clearly and intentionally configured as rimfire (i.e, 22LR conversion kit installed) is not an AW.
[Note this applies to rifles only; there's no rimfire exemption for semiauto *pistols*.]
.
An off-list rifle that is clearly & intentionally nonsemiauto (gas tube removed, gas port blocked/closed) is not an AW:
regardless of features and isn't required to be 30" long (just 26" long). Rifles such as FAL clones that have grenade
launcher gas valves that can be closed should not rely on a valve 'setting' to remove AW status: the owner should
remove the gas piston as well. Rifles such as ARs equipped w/adjustable gas valves would be regarded as AWs if
just the gas valve is closed.
.
It'd be most difficult to have a blowback piston-caliber carbine regarded as nonsemiauto - as there's no parts removals/
changes really possible to keep the rifle in demonstrably manual-cycled nonsemiauto operation (except perhaps using
an ultraheavy bolt carrier made from a mix of lead & depleted uranium!)
.
An otherwise-AW split in half in the case of ARs does remove AW status. However, I feel that this is "defendable but
edgy' if transported together; you're walking/driving "DA bait" requiring a defense with vigor and are easily poppable.

Those getting OLL ARs shipped into CA in 'split configuration' to avoid AW status should have the upper & lower shipped
separately to the CA FFL. The CA FFL should install the BB or remove features ASAP.
.
Semiauto OLL rifles that are NOT ARs and which can be split into upper/lower halves MAY or MAY NOT be considerable
AWs without a legal fight. One or more transmutations above may still be required (characteristic feature removal
and/or getting rid of semiauto status, etc.)
.
You're always better off with specifically added parts and/or changes that clearly demonstrate non-AW status than relying
on lack of constructive possession for travelling around with an almost-AW just split apart. Remember, there's legal and
then there's practical: you don't wanna be driving around with cop/DA bait; even if you're right it can cost CGF funds & time.

socal2310
07-29-2010, 10:31 AM
You're always better off with specifically added parts and/or changes that clearly demonstrate non-AW status than relying on lack of constructive possession for travelling around with an almost-AW just split apart. Remember, there's legal and then there's practical: you don't wanna be driving around with cop/DA bait; even if you're right, it can cost CGF funds & time.



In other words, the CGF would feel obligated to step in to save your sorry hide because of the risk that bad legal precedent might otherwise be established but don't expect to be invited out for a victory dinner afterward unless you want to pay for it while being admonished to never do anything that stupid again. I think I'll play it safe :).

Ryan

bwiese
07-29-2010, 10:36 AM
In other words, the CGF would feel obligated to step in to save your sorry hide because of the risk that bad legal precedent might otherwise be established but don't expect to be invited out for a victory dinner afterward...

Unless it happened to help take down the CA AWB due to nonclarity ;)

Remember we got there part way in the Contos case - Alison was driving the local DA (she wasn't allowed to file an AG case herself!) and the judge was talking about voiding for nonclarity :)

But yes, don't attempt this at home kiddies, we don't need martyrs.

The above outline I wrote keeps one on the bright side of the line.


.. unless you want to pay for it while being admonished to
never do anything that stupid again. I think I'll play it safe :).


Bingo!

Ron-Solo
07-29-2010, 10:50 AM
It is so easy to be in compliance with bullet buttons and such that it is not worth the potential legal hassles to play games with it. Play with fire, you might get burned. The are some great legal minds working on this, and they don't need any distractions right now.

tuolumnejim
07-29-2010, 10:54 AM
He said it's off-list.

My bad I skipped that part.

OleCuss
07-29-2010, 11:22 AM
bwiese:

You put out some of the best darned information!

Now I have to bookmark another (this) thread because of the excellent summary you put into this one.

gewgaw
07-29-2010, 11:37 AM
Semiauto OLL rifles that are NOT ARs and which can be split into upper/lower halves MAY or MAY NOT be considerable
AWs without a legal fight. One or more transmutations above may still be required (characteristic feature removal
and/or getting rid of semiauto status, etc.)

Do you mean in the case where the upper and lower are transported together in the same vehicle? Or do you think a serialized OLL semiauto (non-AR) rifle part MAY be considered an AW even if just that one part (without the rest of the rifle) is being transported?

dantodd
07-29-2010, 11:40 AM
But yes, don't attempt this at home kiddies, we don't need martyrs.

The above outline I wrote keeps one on the bright side of the line.


Well, you might eventually need martyrs but it's much better if CGF gets to pick them if/when the time is right.

bwiese
07-29-2010, 11:53 AM
Semiauto OLL rifles that are NOT ARs and which can be split into upper/lower
halves MAY or MAY NOT be considerable as AWs without a legal fight. One or
more transmutations above may still be required (like characteristic feature
removal and/or getting rid of semiauto status, etc.)




Do you mean in the case where the upper and lower are transported together in the same vehicle? Or do you think a serialized OLL semiauto (non-AR) rifle part MAY be considered an AW even if just that one part (without the rest of the rifle) is being transported?

These edge situations are generally DEFENDABLE but generally UNWISE.

Most cops don't understand constructive possession or lack thereof that well. And separation distance - 10 inch or 10 miles - is irrelevant, but driving around w/a split-apart AW is just a baiting situation, esp when it's so easy to install a BB maglock (features) or MonsterMan grip (featureless).

Yes, I think a separated AR upper and lower being transported without BB is unwise - note that that's why I said FFLs importing split ARs otherwise considered as AWs should have the halves shipped separately.

Non-AR OLL rifles with a split upper/lower architecgure and serialized upper receiver (say, FAL clones and Sig 556) have semiauto and centerfire status and often one evil feature (flash hider) and are edge conditions. These are readily defendable as nonrifles, but we've never gone there (we've always defended plain receivers, serialized lowers with evil features, and full-house rifles with BB maglocks or featureless+wedge grip) - and and I hope we don't need to waste time/funds on this.

Charlie50
07-29-2010, 5:45 PM
Wow! just got home and quickly scanned the responses. I will re-read carefully, but clearly the gist of the informed opinions is "don't try it". Just for clarification the reason I asked these is I sometimes have rifles in various states of repair, in my safe. Also some of the aks just look wrong, for display in my safe, when fitted with a muzzle extension or other calibastion. I've seen non-functional fully auto weapons on public display and got to thinking... maybe me thinks too much. Thanks for the great input.