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spaceburger
04-22-2006, 7:53 PM
We went to MP range in Concord today to shoot the Kalifornicated AR. Everything went well till the end of the day. My son had just loaded all ten rounds, closed the rifle, loaded a round when cease fire was called. He was shooting sitting position with the sling on his arm and didn’t have good leverage pulling the bolt carrier back. Another round stripped off and jammed the tip into the round still in the chamber. What a mess. You can’t split the rifle because the bolt is halfway into the buffer tube and you have a round in the chamber with another jammed into the receiver lugs. After I screwed it up more, he got out of position and came to my rescue while 8 guys waited behind the line. He managed to clear all rounds without having to fire.

I was told later that the range masters were complaining that they run into this allot at the public range. I had just finished reading Harrott vs. County of Kings in its entirety yesterday. One notable quote:
“The questions raised by Court of Appeal in Kasler are not questions ordinary citizens must answer at their own peril. Rather they are questions the AG must address…”

So later I was thinking what options Lockyer has. If he chooses to list all the new lowers then we get to register them and remove the mag lock feature. Bad PR for Lockyer because that means the state now has another 35,000 legal Assault Weapons with associated proud and law abiding citizens behind all of them. Now that solves the safety problem at the range.
If he chooses to not list but requires an approved mag lock feature then we have the rare but potential safety issue still. I used to think this was a better option but after today I would rather have him list.
Thoughts on other options?

Glasshat
04-22-2006, 9:09 PM
Anytime you take a perfectly good design like the AR-15 and bastardize it to suit ignorant law makers, you're going to have problems.

I think registering any firearm is a really bad idea for citizens and I think rifles designed to have detachable magazines should not be redesigned by people who are not expert firearm designers.

The situation you described is dangerous and will lead to a ND sooner or later. I also don't have any good ideas to overcome the problem given the current political climate in CA.

6172crew
04-22-2006, 9:58 PM
Anytime you take a perfectly good design like the AR-15 and bastardize it to suit ignorant law makers, you're going to have problems.

I think registering any firearm is a really bad idea for citizens and I think rifles designed to have detachable magazines should not be redesigned by people who are not expert firearm designers.

The situation you described is dangerous and will lead to a ND sooner or later. I also don't have any good ideas to overcome the problem given the current political climate in CA.

:cool: Couldnt have said it better myself. But you cant tell a lib anything they dont want to hear...just look at the contra costa times front page last Friday...:rolleyes:

Henry47
04-23-2006, 12:37 AM
i had the same exact malfunction when I was on BLM land a few weeks ago. I thought to myself "(#*&, if I could only detach this mag!). I spent about 15 minutes trying to clear a jam that could've taken less than 5 seconds to clear. :mad:

hitnrun
04-23-2006, 2:01 AM
I have had one jam that was only cleared by removing the front and rear pins so I could get the lower and upper halves seperated. That was only done after 45mins of trying other things!:mad:

CTT2
04-23-2006, 3:44 AM
On the Commifornia AR make sure you use the forward assist everytime after you pull back the charging handle or release the bolt. Otherwise if the bolt doesn't catch the round and you pull the charging handle back you will essentially jam your rifle. Once it is jamed the only way you can unjam it is removing the stock, and then pull the bolt carrier back.

Ford8N
04-23-2006, 6:22 AM
Anytime you take a perfectly good design like the AR-15 and bastardize it to suit ignorant law makers, you're going to have problems.

I think registering any firearm is a really bad idea for citizens and I think rifles designed to have detachable magazines should not be redesigned by people who are not expert firearm designers.

The situation you described is dangerous and will lead to a ND sooner or later. I also don't have any good ideas to overcome the problem given the current political climate in CA.


Excellent and right to the problem.

Don't worry, some lawyer will sue if they don't list or require a kind of modified AW.

spaceburger
04-23-2006, 9:21 AM
Kudo's to all of you guys. This post is actually going well. I do not care for the notion of having to register my rifles.
Just curious does anyone have a legal product liability twist to this Kali AR thing? In other words the design and function of the rifle has been modified substantially by law and thereby creates the potential for a chain of events that could lead to injury or death. This chain of events is a direct result of compliance to a sic law that would otherwise not exist.
thoughts?

NoTime2Shoot
04-23-2006, 9:41 AM
I have had one jam that was only cleared by removing the front and rear pins so I could get the lower and upper halves seperated. That was only done after 45mins of trying other things!:mad:


I am planning on using quick release pins front and rear on my build, (well, whenever the manufacturer finishes my upper). The front one will need some milling to keep the front detent in. It's good to hear I am on the right track with safety. Although, by the time my upper gets here, the list will be out, and all my work will be for naught.

Mesa Tactical
04-23-2006, 11:48 AM
In other words the design and function of the rifle has been modified substantially by law and thereby creates the potential for a chain of events that could lead to injury or death.

No it hasn't. The design of the rifle is being modified by shooters attempting to circumvent the intent of the law, which was to ban ALL AR-15s (just ask the authors).

There's nothing in the law that says people have to have fixed magazine ARs.

maxicon
04-23-2006, 12:06 PM
I've had this problem a number of times, and it always seems to happen when cease-fire is called. Yes, it's embarassing to have to fumble with your rifle while everyone waits and watches.

I suppose you could practice this kind of clearing exercise with some high-quality snap caps or dummy rounds at home.

I've found that a small screwdriver can be used to lever the various rounds as required - pushing them back into the mag, loosening them up so one can be dropped out, getting the jammed round loose from the chamber, whatever.

It's easy to mess up your upper, so it takes caution, and I'm thinking about dipping one in plastic coating to help avoid marring the parts.

max

mef223
04-23-2006, 3:30 PM
Same thing happened to me. I dropped the mag, cleared it, re-fixed the mag. That's the safest thing to do. I know the problems about not having a mag in the magwell, but I personally think that this is the safest thing to do, and I'm willing to take the chance. .02

Glasshat
04-23-2006, 5:52 PM
I'm with you on this one because that is how the manual of arms issued with the rifle says the rifle should be cleared. None of us has the right to create an unsafe condition at the range just because we choose to modify our rifles. The intent of the law is to protect the children, isn't it? Removing the mag to clear the rifle is the safest way to go.

Same thing happened to me. I dropped the mag, cleared it, re-fixed the mag. That's the safest thing to do. I know the problems about not having a mag in the magwell, but I personally think that this is the safest thing to do, and I'm willing to take the chance. .02

Richie Rich
04-23-2006, 6:03 PM
If I were in that situation I would drop the mag... Using "tools and time" and only removing it to render weapon safe it seems that this would fall into a "sort of ok" gray area.

One question that I have....

When the DOJ uses the phrase "non detachable magazine", what are they saying?

That it cannot be removed from the magwell?

Or physically detached or disconnected from the firearm itself?

The reason I am asking is it has dawned on me that if they are not specific, couldn't one just attach a retainer connecting the magazine and the rifle, a leash of sorts.

That would allow the magazine to be lowered from the magwell (but not physically detached from the rifle) to clear jams, make weapon safe during cease fire and such... It would also allow for safer travel with off listers, seeing as many LEOs are unfamiliar with the whole "off list" concept and might assume that any rifle with a magazine inserted is loaded and act accordingly. Seeing a rifle with mag out of mag well and obviously unloaded might prevent someone from getting "subdued" by an overanxious LEO....

Might be a crazy idea, as well as a gray area but who knows, it might save someones life...

jdberger
04-23-2006, 6:52 PM
In this case Sporting Conversion's kit might also appear less benign than the set screw method which uses standard mag catch button.

You can loosen the nut on the Sporting Conversions setup to operate the mag release, too. Of course, you'd then have to reapply Loc-Tite.:p

artherd
04-24-2006, 12:11 AM
The AG and CA DOJ do not care about gun safety! If they did, there would be a riflemanship course in every high school.

They like to cater to soccer moms and to them 'gun safety' means 'locked up, buried, and taken apart' or 'outright banned.'

artherd
04-24-2006, 12:13 AM
PS: Guys, sheesh, just pull the PG off (er assuming you don't have other 'features... If you have other features pull the entire upper off then pull the PG off). It's not that hard.

blkA4alb
04-24-2006, 12:16 AM
And for all you tackdrivers out there just single load it. Thats what I found myself doing. Just pop a round in the port and close the bolt. I also plan on loading the 10 rounds that way instead of breaking the upper open, its really not that difficult.

jp.cherokee
04-24-2006, 7:32 AM
PS: Guys, sheesh, just pull the PG off (er assuming you don't have other 'features... If you have other features pull the entire upper off then pull the PG off). It's not that hard.

Hi Artherd, A little more info please, "PG?", "features?". Thanks, this is an important topic.
Thanks,

WRENCHHEAD
04-24-2006, 8:12 AM
Hi Artherd, A little more info please, "PG?", "features?". Thanks, this is an important topic.
Thanks,

"pistol grip"

jp.cherokee
04-24-2006, 8:39 AM
"pistol grip"

Duh, Thanks, Its too early...:o

LOW2000
04-24-2006, 10:45 AM
a leash of sorts.


:eek:
Holy Crap!! If the mag were somehow leashed to the weapon in a means that needed tools + time to remove either the mag from the leash, or the leash from the mag, then at all times, the magazine would be attached to the weapon.

That would be a helluva good solution I would think, granted, you still would only get 10 round capacity, but you could still pull the mag out to reload and clear jams.

spaceburger
04-24-2006, 12:28 PM
I was thinking about Richie's idea of putting a leash on it. Good Idea but somehow it needs to preclude you from inserting a truly "detachable" magazine. Damn Good thought still...
Put a Leash on it!

blacklisted
04-24-2006, 12:43 PM
:eek:
Holy Crap!! If the mag were somehow leashed to the weapon in a means that needed tools + time to remove either the mag from the leash, or the leash from the mag, then at all times, the magazine would be attached to the weapon.

That would be a helluva good solution I would think, granted, you still would only get 10 round capacity, but you could still pull the mag out to reload and clear jams.

But you could have a box of "non-leashed" magazines and use them to reload while the "leashed" mag is out.

spaceburger
04-24-2006, 1:13 PM
Per DOJ:
Each user is allowed to wear one neck leash thereby binding to the user an assemblage of three magazines capable of holding ten rounds each and an AR15 type rifle. The leash shall attach to the user these four items such that neither is detachable from the user without the use of a tool. Each of three 10 round magazines shall be painted orange with pink letters outlined in .5mm black line to read:
WELKOME TO KALI

The user shall be allowed to wear up to five leashes simultaneously such that a total of 150 rounds are available to the user with a selection of five AR15 type rifles. The user is allowed to expend all 150 rounds from a single AR15 while wearing the other four AR-15's across the back. Some users (*****) shall be allowed to don one of the extra AR-15 within the confines of the user’s rectal area.

LOW2000
04-24-2006, 2:47 PM
Damn, foiled again!! I'll get you next time DOJ Gadget, next time...