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frankm
07-26-2010, 6:12 PM
Can law enforcement force you to open a safe? For what reasons? I know if they have a warrant, but anything else? What if I'm not there, can they force my wife or kid to open it? I haven't done anything, just wondering cause of the other thread where the cops did bad things.

POLICESTATE
07-26-2010, 6:14 PM
I don't think they can FORCE you, they can make demands and all that but when it comes down to it I believe they have to resort to breaking into the safe themselves?

Besides how is your wife or KID going to open it for them? My wife has no access to my safe and you can bet my kids don't for sure!

Dr Rockso
07-26-2010, 6:14 PM
As a general rule, never. If they have a warrant they won't need your help getting into the safe.

loather
07-26-2010, 6:45 PM
... and if they don't have a warrant, under no circumstance should they be in your safe, ever.

77bawls
07-26-2010, 6:50 PM
I thought warrents had to list safes specifically if they want inside them.

POLICESTATE
07-26-2010, 6:52 PM
Warrants are supposed to name places to be searched and items to be searched for, but then there is the so-called piggy back warrant so if they see something else they want to get into they just get that added on.
It was a great thing when you're going after real bad guys, but when they decide you are a bad guy and you're not...

snobord99
07-26-2010, 7:53 PM
It can happen without a warrant, but it would be one hell of a factual scenario. I'd say "almost never without a warrant" is the best short answer.

postal
07-26-2010, 8:31 PM
^^^^^ while this may be true.....


I would hold my ground- and tell wife/kids same.

No you're not getting in there without a warrant.... rinse.... repeat.... If they dont accept that line.... my lines would get a lot more creative... and a lot more colorful than Kestryll allows on this forum.... but the message would be the same. "No- you are NOT getting a peek in there without a VALID search warrant."

I will not accept your "buddy" falsifying a "phone warrant" either. You will show me a VALID WRITTEN warrant that includes locked containers on that warrant... or pound sand.. or pound another object of MY choosing, up one of your orifices of MY choosing....

Crom
07-26-2010, 8:44 PM
Don't open the door for the police. If you don't open the door they'll never ever see your safe.

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tyrist
07-26-2010, 8:45 PM
You need to be much more specific with your question. Can they physically make you open the safe? No. When would they just break into it without a warrant? Well if you locked a human being inside of it I would imagine they would go ahead and bust it open. When it comes to matters of law you can't just ask a general question since even relatively small details can change what would happen. What is specifically inside the safe or what they reasonably believe is inside the safe can make a big difference.

Shotgun Man
07-26-2010, 8:47 PM
As a general rule, never. If they have a warrant they won't need your help getting into the safe.

I agree with this answer.

You have the right not to incriminate yourself. By opening the safe, you are incriminating yourself. Just invoke your fifth amendment rights and pray that you aren't beaten and/or tortured.

Foulball
07-26-2010, 8:54 PM
No one knows my safe combo but me.
No warrant, no entry (unless forced entry)
With warrant, maybe/maybe not (without forced entry).

--

EWILKE
07-26-2010, 8:54 PM
NEVER I made that mistake ONCE and will never do it again They will lie and once there in they do what they want to they ran all the number on my guns and still took my roommate to jail. They made me feel like the criminal when he was the one in trouble and on probation. was not to be around guns OOPS. he knew I had them.

dantodd
07-26-2010, 9:14 PM
No one knows my safe combo but me.
No warrant, no entry (unless forced entry)
With warrant, maybe/maybe not (without forced entry).

--

Yep. My safe is not worth less than the evidence that I didn't consent to a search. If the police have a valid reason to get into my safe they will get into it without any assistance.

jptsr1
07-26-2010, 9:24 PM
If they have no warrant the conversation starts at my front door and ends after a short walk to the edge of my property. No way to see my safe from the edge of my lawn.

Cpl. Haas
07-26-2010, 9:25 PM
Besides a warrant, the only other way I can think of would be through exigent circumstances or if there was a public safety issue. Whether either of those could apply would depend on the specifics of the incident.

Falstaff
07-26-2010, 9:29 PM
Yep. My safe is not worth less than the evidence that I didn't consent to a search. If the police have a valid reason to get into my safe they will get into it without any assistance.

How will they get in? Are they trained in safe cracking or will they bring in a locksmith?

BTW- those Barry Cooper videos are hilarious! For those that don't know, Barry was a Narcotics officer in TX who's conscious got to him and he decided he could no longer pursue the drug war- he has some very disturbing things to say about police behaviour he witnessed and participated in in TX (FAR worse than the SLO Sherrifs dust up).

dantodd
07-26-2010, 9:32 PM
How will they get in? Are they trained in safe cracking or will they bring in a locksmith?

That's not my problem. Locksmith, sledgehammer, torch, they can pick their favorite. (I don't have a $20,000 safe, it's easy to stand on principles when it only costs $1000)

Ron Burgundy
07-26-2010, 9:46 PM
I agree with this answer.

You have the right not to incriminate yourself. By opening the safe, you are incriminating yourself. Just invoke your fifth amendment rights and pray that you aren't beaten and/or tortured.

Beaten and/or tortured...Really??? I didn't know we were in Russia or China.
You don't have to let anyone look in your safe. If there is a warrant, and the safe is listed on that warrant or the item(s) being sought after could fit in the safe it will either be opened by you or them. And if it is damaged in the process, oh well.
Now if they are looking for a stolen car or motorcycle tell them to piss off.

Falstaff
07-26-2010, 10:01 PM
Beaten and/or tortured...Really??? I didn't know we were in Russia or China.
.

Umm, been on youtube much? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

STOP RESISTING!

NightOwl
07-27-2010, 1:17 AM
Beaten and/or tortured...Really??? I didn't know we were in Russia or China.

What rock do you live under? Seriously, police overstep their authority every day in this country. More and more these days we're getting video of it, thanks to every cell phone having a camera, and many having video recording.

This would derail any other topic, merely trying to discuss it. Try google. Police Brutality, as a search, comes up with 1,730,000 hits, for starters. Pick a city, county, state, or country, and you can find all you need out there without needing to start a bashing thread here.

I'm done with that, just had to express my utter shock that someone would seriously think that doesn't happen here, under color of law.

IrishPirate
07-27-2010, 1:24 AM
if you're in San Luis Obispo County, they'll just take your keys and search your whole house, then cahrge you with trumped up, fabricated crimes and catch themselves in the act on audio and video tape. Outside of SLO, warrants are necessary (but still not always procured.....hey who needs a 4th amendment anyways right? :rolleyes: )

Munk
07-27-2010, 1:40 AM
Ahh, a portable hydraulic press with a couple of hard steel prybars built into it. Combine that with a couple of good torch cuts to the corners and a safe is open in under a minute, and with plenty of easily visible damage to show off in court when your lawyer does his thing.


Nice little video, i like the end bit there.
"Here are my hands, go ahead and kick the door in"

Kharn
07-27-2010, 3:00 AM
If the warrant says they're looking for an elephant they would not be able to legally open your safe. If the warrant says they're looking for 50 ctw of loose diamonds then they'll pop your safe in a heartbeat.

BigDogatPlay
07-27-2010, 3:16 AM
Aside from a warrant, and they'll bring a locksmith with them if necessary to open it, there would need to be some very exigent circumstances to compel the opening of your safe in your home.

Destruction of evidence? If the safe is locked, where is the evidence going to go? Post a guard and phone for a warrant.

Someone locked inside? That might be exigent, assuming there isn't a hole for the power cord to serve a dehumidifer which could let some air in.

If the police are browbeating family members for a combination, and there is no warrant, that's almost certainly going to be a problem for them at trial. The SLO thing... that was just plain wrong. There is no way anything those deputies did should have ever stood up to a suppression hearing.

mlatino
07-27-2010, 4:11 AM
From 12028.5 PC - LEO authority to seize firearms at DV situations

(b) A sheriff, undersheriff, deputy sheriff, marshal, deputy
marshal, or police officer of a city, as defined in subdivision (a)
of Section 830.1, a peace officer of the Department of the California
Highway Patrol, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 830.2, a
member of the University of California Police Department, as defined
in subdivision (b) of Section 830.2, an officer listed in Section
830.6 while acting in the course and scope of his or her employment
as a peace officer, a member of a California State University Police
Department, as defined in subdivision (c) of Section 830.2, a peace
officer of the Department of Parks and Recreation, as defined in
subdivision (f) of Section 830.2, a peace officer, as defined in
subdivision (d) of Section 830.31, a peace officer, as defined in
subdivisions (a) and (b) of Section 830.32, and a peace officer, as
defined in Section 830.5, who is at the scene of a domestic violence
incident involving a threat to human life or a physical assault,
shall take temporary custody of any firearm or other deadly weapon in
plain sight or discovered pursuant to a consensual or other lawful
search as necessary for the protection of the peace officer or other
persons present. Upon taking custody of a firearm or other deadly
weapon, the officer shall give the owner or person who possessed the
firearm a receipt. The receipt shall describe the firearm or other
deadly weapon and list any identification or serial number on the
firearm. The receipt shall indicate where the firearm or other deadly
weapon can be recovered, the time limit for recovery as required by
this section, and the date after which the owner or possessor can
recover the firearm or other deadly weapon. No firearm or other
deadly weapon shall be held less than 48 hours. Except as provided in
subdivision (f), if a firearm or other deadly weapon is not retained
for use as evidence related to criminal charges brought as a result
of the domestic violence incident or is not retained because it was
illegally possessed, the firearm or other deadly weapon shall be made
available to the owner or person who was in lawful possession 48
hours after the seizure or as soon thereafter as possible, but no
later than five business days after the owner or person who was in
lawful possession demonstrates compliance with Section 12021.3. In
any civil action or proceeding for the return of firearms or
ammunition or other deadly weapon seized by any state or local law
enforcement agency and not returned within five business days
following the initial seizure, except as provided in subdivision (d),
the court shall allow reasonable attorney's fees to the prevailing
party.

IWc
07-27-2010, 5:04 AM
PC - ...defined in Section 830.5, who is at the scene of a domestic violence
incident involving a threat to human life or a physical assault,
shall take temporary custody of any firearm or other deadly weapon in
plain sight or discovered pursuant to a consensual or other lawful
search as necessary for the protection of the peace officer or other
persons present.

Sinixstar
07-27-2010, 5:34 AM
Before they can even get to the safe, they have to have a reason to get in the house.

That means warrant - or extremely unique circumstances.
Even with circumstances, before they get in a safe - gun or otherwise - they're going to have to show me a piece of paper signed by a judge.

Stealth
07-27-2010, 7:43 AM
You must be this tall and have a Warrant to Ride the "Open Safe" attraction in my home.

Josey Wales
07-27-2010, 8:21 AM
After being cuffed and placed in the car, my Sig was taken from its' place of availability in a cabinet. Once the officer put it in his car, he came to me and asked if I had the combo to my safe. My reply was "Yes and no one else will have it." Nuff said.

frankm
07-27-2010, 8:54 AM
<<who is at the scene of a domestic violence
incident involving a threat to human life or a physical assault,
shall take temporary custody of any firearm or other deadly weapon in
plain sight or discovered pursuant to a consensual or other lawful
search as necessary for the protection of the peace officer or other
persons present. >>

Let's say I was fighting in my house with someone, like God Forbid, my daughter brings home some scumbag and he won't leave, I pull a gun and order him out. The cops come, is trying to get into my safe covered here or must they have my permission or a warrant.

VictorFranko
07-27-2010, 9:17 AM
When can you be forced to open gun safe?

When they can pry the combination from my cold, dead brain.

Whiskey_Sauer
07-27-2010, 11:06 AM
If Jack Bauer is holding a gun to your head, demanding you open the safe containing the nuclear codes, or he's going to blow your head off, and he means it, then I suggest you open it. Otherwise, never.

norcal01
07-27-2010, 11:28 AM
Without a warrant, nobody is getting into either of my safes. With a warrant, I'd open it only because refusing to do so isn't going to get me anywhere and I'd rather not have my safe damaged. Going to court with pictures of a safe that was damaged because you refused to open it is going to portray you in a worse light than the officers if they had a warrant. That being said, there's nothing illegal in my safe to begin with but I agree with standing up for yourself and not giving up your rights.

winnre
07-27-2010, 11:38 AM
Hypothetical question here. Let's say cops have a warrant because they heard from a credible source that you have a machine gun in your safe. They (or you) open it, and there are no machine guns. BUT... there are other illegal items. What then?

frankm
07-27-2010, 11:41 AM
Hypothetical question here. Let's say cops have a warrant because they heard from a credible source that you have a machine gun in your safe. They (or you) open it, and there are no machine guns. BUT... there are other illegal items. What then?

I know this one, you're hosed. What I'm not sure of, is when they can take your locked and stored weapons because of altercations or what they view as a "threat" to persons.

eta34
07-27-2010, 11:46 AM
Hypothetical question here. Let's say cops have a warrant because they heard from a credible source that you have a machine gun in your safe. They (or you) open it, and there are no machine guns. BUT... there are other illegal items. What then?

Then they can lawfully seize the illegal items. Very simple.

norcal01
07-27-2010, 11:49 AM
I know this one, you're hosed. What I'm not sure of, is when they can take your locked and stored weapons because of altercations or what they view as a "threat" to persons.

When they are taking you to the hospital or a mental health facility as a 5150 or when you're being arrested for domestic violence. I've heard of guns being taken if the person was arrested for any felony but my old agency would only take guns with a felony arrest if they were evidence or for an enhancement such as someone with guns and drugs....

winnre
07-27-2010, 11:53 AM
Well maybe guns was a bad example. If they have a warrant to look for cocaine and you have heroine? I know they will confiscate it, but can they charge you? Is it a legal search? Does a warrant allow other items found during a search too?

IrishPirate
07-27-2010, 12:00 PM
Hypothetical question here. Let's say cops have a warrant because they heard from a credible source that you have a machine gun in your safe. They (or you) open it, and there are no machine guns. BUT... there are other illegal items. What then?

if they stop you for a tail light out and find alcohol on your breath they can give you a DUI. If they search your house for drugs and find a dead hooker, you get arrested for murder. If they search your safe for a machine gun and find something else illegal, they deal with it. Once a cop sees something illegal, they have the right to act on it, no matter what the circumstance was that lead to them finding it. Of course, if they searched you illegally, it SHOULD get thrown out in court, but that's a very expensive and painful SHOULD.

frankm
07-27-2010, 12:08 PM
When they are taking you to the hospital or a mental health facility as a 5150 or when you're being arrested for domestic violence. I've heard of guns being taken if the person was arrested for any felony but my old agency would only take guns with a felony arrest if they were evidence or for an enhancement such as someone with guns and drugs....

Seems like if a gun is used, the circumstances of it's use determine whether or not they have the right to demand all of your guns. Sounds like if I pull a weapon in my home cause of some drunk scumbag, etc. they can't just demand them. That's what I posted about, when can they demand them, and when can they not. If they "can" demand them, and I say no, I get arrested. I'm looking to see how far I can go and not get in trouble, just in case I move to San Luis Obispo. lol

norcal01
07-27-2010, 12:14 PM
Seems like if a gun is used, the circumstances of it's use determine whether or not they have the right to demand all of your guns. Sounds like if I pull a weapon in my home cause of some drunk scumbag, etc. they can't just demand them.

I wouldn't think so, although the circumstances can be so varied it's hard to say. If said drunk scumbag is a stranger who kicked in your door it would be a different scenario than if the drunk scumbag is actually a buddy of yours and you point a gun at him during an argument over who's turn it is to get up off the couch and pour the next round...
If the gun is used in the commission of a crime then that particular gun is evidence. That doesn't necessarily mean that ALL of your guns would be taken.

norcal01
07-27-2010, 12:27 PM
Well maybe guns was a bad example. If they have a warrant to look for cocaine and you have heroine? I know they will confiscate it, but can they charge you? Is it a legal search? Does a warrant allow other items found during a search too?

To answer your specific question, yes, if the warrant is for cocaine and they find heroin, you will be arrested and charged with the heroin and the seach and evidence will hold up in court.
If it's a blanket search warrant then they can search anything and whatever they find is admissible as evidence. If the warrant is limited then they can only look for items described in the warrant. As an example: You get arrested for DV outside of your home and the victim tells the officers that you own guns. They then obtain a warrant to enter your home and seize your guns. They look through your nightstand drawer and see a handful of small baggies containing cocaine. Those baggies are admissible because they had a right to check the drawer for a firearm since a drawer could easily contain a firearm and the baggies were in plain sight. However, if the baggies were in a standard envelope, and they opened the envelope and found them, they wouldn't be admissible because they were not in plain sight and they could not have reasonably believed that the envelope contained a gun. This is also true of consent searches, should you for some reason ever agree to one. During a consent search you can limit the scope of the search however you want. For example an officer asks to search your car and you agree on the condition that he can't open the trunk. Anything he finds is admissible unless it is in the trunk, since you specifically stated he did not have permission to search there.
All that being said, there is shady business that goes on and I guarantee that the baggies in the first hypothetical situation would be listed in the report as having been spilling out of the envelope or the envelope was open and they could see into it, etc... It isn't right but it is reality.

Gray Peterson
07-27-2010, 1:02 PM
Police have been abusing their power since before the Civil War. This is nothing new, it's just that with the advent of Youtube it's easier to see abuses of power. I also find it interesting that the black and latino communities have been complaining of police brutality for decades.

winnre
07-27-2010, 2:22 PM
Ah, plain sight is the difference. Keep all your dead hookers in envelopes.

San FranPsycho
07-27-2010, 2:56 PM
^^:p

dantodd
07-27-2010, 3:01 PM
Police have been abusing their power since before the Civil War. This is nothing new, it's just that with the advent of Youtube it's easier to see abuses of power. I also find it interesting that the black and latino communities have been complaining of police brutality for decades.

This is one of the best aspects of the proliferation of camera phones and video/audio recording phones. If it weren't for this kind of tool we would never have known how hate filled people like Helen Thomas are. Camera and video phones will help dramatically reduce the abuses but will bring those that do occur to light much more frequently. They also work to help people like the BART cop who would surely have been convicted of a much more serious crime based on eye witness testimony had video of the incident not been available.

RideIcon
07-27-2010, 3:05 PM
Beaten and/or tortured...Really??? I didn't know we were in Russia or China.


hahahahahahaha

this ones new

ke6guj
07-27-2010, 3:48 PM
Well maybe guns was a bad example. If they have a warrant to look for cocaine and you have heroine? I know they will confiscate it, but can they charge you? Is it a legal search? Does a warrant allow other items found during a search too?

here's another hypothetical.

driving a car with a "rifle" case on the back seat. Officer wants to do an (e) check to make sure that there isn't a loaded firearm inside. Driver states that there is not a firearm in the case and he does not consent to a search. Can the officer look inside the case to do an (e)check? If, when the officer opens the case, he sees something illegal, such as drugs, can he use the results of that search against you?

norcal01
07-27-2010, 5:07 PM
here's another hypothetical.

driving a car with a "rifle" case on the back seat. Officer wants to do an (e) check to make sure that there isn't a loaded firearm inside. Driver states that there is not a firearm in the case and he does not consent to a search. Can the officer look inside the case to do an (e)check? If, when the officer opens the case, he sees something illegal, such as drugs, can he use the results of that search against you?

I would say that the officer would have to be able to articulate why exactly he believed it was a rifle case AND why he believed there was a rifle in it. Unless he can somehow explain why he was sure it was a rifle I'm not sure a search of the case would be admissable. However there are a lot of different opinions about this so I keep all my weapon cases out of sight. It's important to remember that even if the search is bad, it doesn't mean that you aren't going to jail. Evidence collected during a bad search is still brought before a judge and then your attorney can attempt to have it excluded on the basis that it was obtained illegally. It's not like you can just tell the officer "Hey, that's an illegal search" and he'll say "Oh, my bad, I guess you can go about your business. Have a nice day!"

cbn620
07-27-2010, 7:33 PM
I think a person can be forced to do anything. The question is when a person is legally bound to comply, and when if ever is it most legally prudent to do so. You may be forced against your will and against the law.

BillCA
07-27-2010, 7:35 PM
here's another hypothetical.

driving a car with a "rifle" case on the back seat. Officer wants to do an (e) check to make sure that there isn't a loaded firearm inside. Driver states that there is not a firearm in the case and he does not consent to a search. Can the officer look inside the case to do an (e)check? If, when the officer opens the case, he sees something illegal, such as drugs, can he use the results of that search against you?

As Norcal01 said, if the officer sees a rifle case, he has to articulate in court why he believed it was a rifle case.

...because my father in law has one just like it ...
...I've seen the same case at a gun shop with other rifle cases...

He may be called upon to testify why he thought there was a rifle inside the case. That can have many answers, among which are things like...

...The case was heavy enough to contain a rifle when I checked the locks...
...I could clearly see a nylon bag commonly sold as a range bag...
...With the gun related stickers on his car, I didn't think it contained an Oboe...

Thus, if the court believes that the officer used "common sense" and his own knowledge and experience to determine the case was likely to contain a rifle, he could perform a loaded firearm check.

Now, if he opens the case and discovers illegal contraband, since he was (a) able to articulate a reason to open the case and (b) legally entitled to do so, then (c)ooked is your goose. :p

Tweaking the your scenario:
Let's change one thing here. Instead of shooting your EBR at the range, you decided to take you Kochler & Heck 9mm and your Schmidt & Blaster .44 Magnum to the range instead and you put them into a standard briefcase with a combination lock. This is laying on your front passenger seat.

Now, the officer stops you, notes the briefcase and in the course of the traffic stop asks you if you have any weapons in the car. You say "No sir, am I supposed to?" and he smiles. But a few minutes later he wants to "inspect" your briefcase because he believes you have weapons in there. You refuse consent. Even if he picks it up, notes that it's heavy and shakes it (but you've cleverly foam padded the guns) you claim it's full of personal papers, documents, notepads and a laptop computer.

The officer decides to take the chance and opens the case. Ah-HA! Guns! Gotcha! But the guns are legally registered and properly unloaded. The officer just bought himself a Title 18 1983 lawsuit. Especially if he has a dashcam in his car. Just remember to look at his squad car and loudly ask him "Do you want some bacon to go with the egg on your face?" †

If the officer opens the briefcase and finds you've forgotten to remove your cocaine, he may seize it (illegal contraband) but it will be inadmissable in court because the search itself was illegal.

† or... calmly use your cell phone to call his agency's 911 number and ask for a field supervisor AND internal affairs out of his earshot. Get them to review the dashcam tape asap.

KylaGWolf
07-27-2010, 7:52 PM
I thought warrents had to list safes specifically if they want inside them.

Warrants can have a sentence something to the effect they can look anywhere the think an item can be concealed. Depending on what they are looking for can dictate the area size is appropriate. Example they are looking for drugs they can be hidden anywhere so anywhere in your home would be fair game for them to search including your gun safe. Now if they are looking for a stolen widescreen TV and the TV in question is 55 inches then they cannot look in any area that is smaller than that since the item could not be reasonably hidden there.

KylaGWolf
07-27-2010, 8:01 PM
Well maybe guns was a bad example. If they have a warrant to look for cocaine and you have heroine? I know they will confiscate it, but can they charge you? Is it a legal search? Does a warrant allow other items found during a search too?

Yes if in the process of a legal search they come across any other illegal item they have the right to take that item and charge you with that offense. They also have the right to bust you if they come in for another reason and see something in plain view that is illegal. They would also be able to the same thing if they were chasing you and you ran into your house and inside there was something in plain view.

KylaGWolf
07-27-2010, 8:03 PM
Seems like if a gun is used, the circumstances of it's use determine whether or not they have the right to demand all of your guns. Sounds like if I pull a weapon in my home cause of some drunk scumbag, etc. they can't just demand them. That's what I posted about, when can they demand them, and when can they not. If they "can" demand them, and I say no, I get arrested. I'm looking to see how far I can go and not get in trouble, just in case I move to San Luis Obispo. lol

Just because the person is drunk is not a reason to pull a gun on them in your home. Now if that same drunk person is threatening you and you honestly fear for your life then that is a different story. Because if you cannot articulate that you had a reasonable fear of your life you will more than likely get busted for blandishment at the very least.

Dr.Lou
07-27-2010, 8:07 PM
Without exigency, cops need a warrant.

As an aside, While working as a young cop I also moonlighted as a locksmith for my dad's ( retired police chief) locksmith business. I was called upon several times to open locked safes pursuant a search warrant.

Ron-Solo
07-27-2010, 8:45 PM
FYI, if we have a warrant for a safe, we will have a way to get inside. At that point, it would be your call if you wanted to open it to prevent it from being damaged. Damage can happen when forcing it open. At that point, opening it is not an admission of guilt. Anything found in there would be admissible in court either way, unless your attorney is able to get the warrant suppressed. Doesn't happen very often, but it does sometimes.

Civil claims for damage that you could have prevented by complying with a court order (a search warrant) are often denied and subsequent lawsuits are often unsuccessful.

At a certain point, you have to make a decision. Your call, but you must be able to accept your decision and its results.

We (LE) have to answer for our decisions on a daily basis. Sometimes we make mistakes, and sometimes (very rarely thankfully) there are bad cops out there who make us look bad and do bad things.

CnCFunFactory
07-27-2010, 9:26 PM
As a general rule, never. If they have a warrant they won't need your help getting into the safe.

This^.

I happened to be on the receiving end of a search warrant at my place of business.:eek: It was an industrial space that we were sub-letting from another company and shared space with, they were up to "no good". The ATF, LAPD and DEA were all present. They showed me the warrant. Then went to town. We had locked file cabinets with payroll/personnel info and the like in it. Only the admin asst had a key for it and she wasn't there because it was early AM. They just pried everything open. The were very nice and courteous for what is was worth. They even apologized but said they had no choice unless I could get the keys there in a reasonable amount of time. They were pretty cool about the whole thing the warrant also called for them to seize all computers on the premises. I explained to them that taking the computers would essentially destroy my business and the lead investigator (ATF) was like, "We know your not involved we've been watching this place for two weeks. I'll leave the computers for you and sorry we had to dick up your file cabinets." There is more to the story but YES they will get into anything whether you help or not if the warrant calls for it.

frankm
07-27-2010, 9:30 PM
Just because the person is drunk is not a reason to pull a gun on them in your home. Now if that same drunk person is threatening you and you honestly fear for your life then that is a different story. Because if you cannot articulate that you had a reasonable fear of your life you will more than likely get busted for blandishment at the very least.

Ah, ok, we're close. Is their arrest of you for brandishing a gun enough to force you to open the safe? And in the same vein, if you shoot a burglar, but they ain't sure you were justified and take you in for questioning or even suspicion, can they also take all your firearms? Y'know, the often used phrase, "for safekeeping".

Blackhawk556
07-27-2010, 11:29 PM
if they need to break into it let them try. Just buy a good safe that comes with lifetime warranty :)

dantodd
07-28-2010, 12:00 AM
Without exigency, cops need a warrant.

As an aside, While working as a young cop I also moonlighted as a locksmith for my dad's ( retired police chief) locksmith business. I was called upon several times to open locked safes pursuant a search warrant.

See. By refusing to provide your combination you are actually contributing to the job stimulus program. Keep up the good work people.

BillCA
07-28-2010, 1:40 AM
Once the warrant is presented, unlocking the safe is neither consent nor an admission of anything. Lawyers may argue otherwise however, just to make money on the issue.

Of course, some cops won't even give you a chance. You get handcuffed, a piece of paper stuffed in your shirt pocket that you can't read and they start breaking open locked containers.

BigDogatPlay
07-28-2010, 2:27 AM
Well maybe guns was a bad example. If they have a warrant to look for cocaine and you have heroine? I know they will confiscate it, but can they charge you? Is it a legal search? Does a warrant allow other items found during a search too?

That is known in the business as a 'fortuitous find', that is it was good luck that they found it. So long as they were within the scope of of their search; be it probable cause, exigent circumstances or execution of a warrant, if they find other contraband they take both it and you. And it will be added to your charge sheet.

Bear in mind that if they find you in possession of both controlled substances and a firearm, there is an enhancement waiting for you. If the weight is salable, more enhancement. Sufficient weight possessed with firearms and a tough DA can get the beef thrown into the federal arena where the sentencing guidelines are far harsher.

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

Ron-Solo
07-28-2010, 3:06 AM
if they need to break into it let them try. Just buy a good safe that comes with lifetime warranty :)

Try finding a warranty that will cover that.

Wherryj
07-28-2010, 11:59 AM
That's not my problem. Locksmith, sledgehammer, torch, they can pick their favorite. (I don't have a $20,000 safe, it's easy to stand on principles when it only costs $1000)

Although if you have any reloading supplies inside, I MIGHT stand back a bit when they lit the torch...otherwise it might be your problem.

Glock22Fan
07-28-2010, 12:26 PM
I keep my crappy Raven and a box of .25 in the safe, as a decoy.






My guns go under the bed!

:D:D:D:D:D:D



Just joking.

Whiskey_Sauer
07-28-2010, 12:29 PM
Put your safe inside a bigger safe. Then tell the deputies you'll open the big safe, but they'll need a warrant for the one inside.

6172crew
07-28-2010, 12:48 PM
FYI, if we have a warrant for a safe, we will have a way to get inside. At that point, it would be your call if you wanted to open it to prevent it from being damaged. Damage can happen when forcing it open. At that point, opening it is not an admission of guilt. Anything found in there would be admissible in court either way, unless your attorney is able to get the warrant suppressed. Doesn't happen very often, but it does sometimes.

Civil claims for damage that you could have prevented by complying with a court order (a search warrant) are often denied and subsequent lawsuits are often unsuccessful.

At a certain point, you have to make a decision. Your call, but you must be able to accept your decision and its results.

We (LE) have to answer for our decisions on a daily basis. Sometimes we make mistakes, and sometimes (very rarely thankfully) there are bad cops out there who make us look bad and do bad things.

^^^ I will put my $$$ with the above.

I have a pretty cool sticker on mine to call CM though.:D

gunn
07-28-2010, 3:21 PM
As I understand it, Cannon Safes hav a pretty good warranty against "break-ins" and "attempted break-ins"

Q: Do you think it covers police breaking in as part of their search warrant?
-g

Ron-Solo
07-28-2010, 8:14 PM
I have a pretty cool sticker on mine to call CM though.:D

Me Too! :D

Ron-Solo
07-28-2010, 8:15 PM
As I understand it, Cannon Safes hav a pretty good warranty against "break-ins" and "attempted break-ins"

Q: Do you think it covers police breaking in as part of their search warrant?
-g

I would doubt it, since a search warrant is a court order, and not a "break-in" in spite of what many here feel.

hellraiser
07-29-2010, 1:25 PM
ok guys another hypothetical !!!!!

what if you live in a house or apartment with roommates....

you have your safe in your room and the police come looking for one of you roommates for what ever reason. they got a warrant to search the premises. dose that count for your personal room and/or safe? is there some sort of "invisible line" separating your property???

i used to wonder this when i was planing to live with some friends a few years back...

SVT-40
07-29-2010, 2:19 PM
To many what if's. Usually when one rents a room it's not considered part of the other tenets property, or community areas.

But there could be a situation depending upon the circumstance where any or all rooms could be searched.

Each warrant is written differently to cover the differences in each situation.

If your roomies are into illegal stuff and you stay there knowing that.....sounds like you are making a knowing choice to possibly be complicit in their crimes.

norcal01
07-29-2010, 2:49 PM
ok guys another hypothetical !!!!!

what if you live in a house or apartment with roommates....

you have your safe in your room and the police come looking for one of you roommates for what ever reason. they got a warrant to search the premises. dose that count for your personal room and/or safe? is there some sort of "invisible line" separating your property???

i used to wonder this when i was planing to live with some friends a few years back...

Definately too many "what if's". Different agencies and/or officers handle these things differently. In my experience it would have a lot to do with whether or not your roommates had access to your room. If your room was locked and you were the only one with the key and your roommate was willing to tell the officers that he didn't have access to your room, and you were present to protest their search of your room, etc. you might not have your stuff gone through. But that's a lot of "ands"... More than likely they'll have a warrant for the whole house and won't have any idea what kind of room-renting or sub-letting situation is going on. If the warrant is for the house, it's for your room too. They aren't going to have to go get another one just because someone says they just rent a room. Otherwise you could just keep as much illegal stuff as you want in a spare bedroom and when the door gets bashed down you could just tell them that you rent that room out... Probably a good idea to have a rental agreement that specifically states which room you are renting or renting out that also says the person renting the room is the only one with keys. These kinds of things are very situation-specific so it's hard to say...

hellraiser
07-29-2010, 9:10 PM
These kinds of things are very situation-specific so it's hard to say...



If your roomies are into illegal stuff and you stay there knowing that.....sounds like you are making a knowing choice to possibly be complicit in their crimes.

thanks guys for the response...

i couldnt agree more. thats why i landed up movin in with family.

Falstaff
07-29-2010, 10:53 PM
Ahh, a portable hydraulic press with a couple of hard steel prybars built into it. Combine that with a couple of good torch cuts to the corners and a safe is open in under a minute, and with plenty of easily visible damage to show off in court when your lawyer does his thing.


Nice little video, i like the end bit there.
"Here are my hands, go ahead and kick the door in"

I'm no expert, but I did research many of the various high end safes before I bought mine (a liberty brand not the best, but pretty stout I think). I don't think your method would work that well on any decent safe, and theres NFW it could be done in under a minute- yer talkin' out yer *** there. PLus, doesnt EVERYBODY keep 5 or 10 lbs of ffffG in their safes like I do? Have fun with yer torche:rolleyes:

pennys dad
07-29-2010, 11:41 PM
Just say, "No" to drugs and a request to search!

Anchors
07-30-2010, 1:22 AM
Don't open the door for the police. If you don't open the door they'll never ever see your safe.


I was thinking something similar.
Why is there a police officer in your house without a warrant in the first place? Much less where you keep your safe.
I have nothing illegal to hide, but why invite trouble.
I can save their time and mine by stepping out onto the front porch. (Not that I have cops at my front door regularly.)

DisgruntledReaper
07-30-2010, 4:05 PM
I have been thinking of installing a video ccd INSIDE the safe along with a pepper or bear repellent spray system...so not only is there vid of whoever breaks into the safe but also shows them getting pelted in the face or chest with the 'bug spray' ...btw I call it a security system and NOT a boobytrap.....hey if banks can still have EXPLOSIVE dyepaks I can have pepperspray.......

DisgruntledReaper
07-30-2010, 4:09 PM
pt2, I would be more worried about one of those bastard 'sneak and peaks' deals where they break into your home gather info , put everything back the way it was and then come back with a 'valid warrant'......can be done under the 'un'-patriot act.....but there would be bigger things afoot........but then again according to the 'DHS-pidy and Napitano' we are all 'extremists' anyway..

Rob454
07-30-2010, 5:39 PM
I woudl have my lawyer on speed dial and then say over and over will not open without a valid search warrant. i dont have any illegal gun but I dont wanna have my privacy invaded.

hill billy
08-03-2010, 11:29 AM
^^^ I will put my $$$ with the above.

I have a pretty cool sticker on mine to call CM though.:D

I have a pile of those. I like em a lot!

Vox
08-03-2010, 2:58 PM
Hypothetical question here. Let's say cops have a warrant because they heard from a credible source that you have a machine gun in your safe. They (or you) open it, and there are no machine guns. BUT... there are other illegal items. What then?

I think it falls under the plain view doctrine. The Cops have a legal right to be where they are because of the warrant, while they can't seize pot found in a shoebox that obviously is too small to have been containing what they are searching for in the warrant, if it's somewhere they can legally be looking or would have a reasonable belief what they are looking for is in the location then it's seizable.