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View Full Version : legality of charging people to use a Mill to finish their 80% build?


maschronic
07-26-2010, 12:58 PM
i was just curious, what is the legality of charging people to help them finish their 80% build on a mill? It is a legal business with a business license, insurance, and everything else.

one of my best friends is getting a mill for his shop. he can set up the mill, give you directions on how to use the mill, and let you go at it. he would be completely hands off doing it.

is it against the law to do something like that? i'm just curious. I know i will be using it to build my 80% lowers i haven't bought yet. :) heck, i might end up building 5 of them. :)

dantodd
07-26-2010, 1:10 PM
I think that if he is REALLY completely hands off, and he isn't an FFL he'd probably be on pretty safe ground. If he is going to actually advertise the business and his livelihood is at stake if he gets busted it is worth asking a real lawyer and paying for the expertise.

Turo
07-26-2010, 1:15 PM
If the owner of the lower (or non-lower depending on what stage the milling is at) is the one doing all the work, I don't see why it would be any different than going to a friend's house to use his electric drill to make your lower.

There may be something different about it being a business, but I don't see what.

wash
07-26-2010, 1:15 PM
I think he just has to be sure that he is only selling "machine rental time".

Kind of like a motel that rents by the 1/2 hour.

Hands off of course.

Some people might already be doing this (with CNC).

Turo
07-26-2010, 1:19 PM
An interesting addition to the OP's question I just thought of; What if the mill is CNC and does all the milling automatically using a borrowed program?

Decoligny
07-26-2010, 1:19 PM
As long as he provides two seperate and distinct services, I don't see a problem. He could simply advertise as providing instruction in Mill operations, and also advertise Milling machine rental by the hour. Teach the techniques on some junk metal pieces, and then let the customer do their own work on their own build. Don't see it any different than charging someone to use your gunsmithing tools to work on their own gun.

ke6guj
07-26-2010, 1:24 PM
An interesting addition to the OP's question I just thought of; What if the mill is CNC and does all the milling automatically using a borrowed program?

that would be similar to what KT was offering, but he was also supplying the 80% lowers as well. ATF decided that he was acting as a manufacturer since a person could show up to one of his build parties with nothing and have a finished 100% lower when he left, with everything supplied by KT.

wash
07-26-2010, 1:31 PM
That doesn't really make sense.

But the ATF is probably too big for them to fight.

In my opinion, the ATF doesn't have to know a damn thing about what your customers decide to do when they rent your machine tools.

maschronic
07-26-2010, 1:46 PM
interesting facts. i know for a fact that my friend does not want to sell 80% lowers or any parts to lowers. he just wants to offer "machine time rental" for groups of people who wants to build their 80% lowers.

well, i guess i have to keep everyone informed about the mill situation. once he gets a mill and i build my 80% lower, i'll post up some pictures and we can go from there. there might be a 80% build party in OC in the next couple of months.

ke6guj
07-26-2010, 2:04 PM
That doesn't really make sense.

But the ATF is probably too big for them to fight.

In my opinion, the ATF doesn't have to know a damn thing about what your customers decide to do when they rent your machine tools.may not have made sense, but when they come in and confiscate your machinery and put you through the ringer, you do what you have to do to get out of it as best you can.

Blood Ocean
07-26-2010, 2:06 PM
We're ready when you are MasChronic

gun toting monkeyboy
07-26-2010, 2:08 PM
If there is going to be a build party up there, post it here with plenty of warning, so that we can order our 80% lowers. I would love to do something like that, but lack the tools and knowledge.

p.s. who has the best deals on 80% lowers right now?

cmth
07-26-2010, 4:50 PM
Depending on how fancy your machine tools are, I might be in to finish my $25, 0% raw forging. Cutting the mag well is going to be interesting.

woodey
07-26-2010, 5:01 PM
The more you show up on the radar the bigger the target you are going to be. If the cops don't like what your doing but can't bust you for that, they will send in the fire marshal & he WILL find something to close you down. Keep it low key & no worries.

Kharn
07-26-2010, 5:09 PM
Cutting the magazine well is easy. It is spec'ed for 1/16" radius at the corner (1/8" drill bit), but a 5/32" bit will drill with much less drift so that is the one I used on my batch (no affect on function, the big boys use a broach or wire EDM to cut it). 3/16" endmill will clean out the corners for those that pick 1/8" while 1/4" can be used with a 5/32" hole (stronger bit). An extra-long 1/2" roughing endmill will hog out the center in record time, just make sure to clean up the edges with a conventional bit or your lower will look like it was carved with a serrated knife. Eventually you have to flip the lower over so you can keep using a relatively sane length of 1/4" endmill, but you have to do that anyway to do the bevel on the bottom.