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View Full Version : 7.62X39 and Iraq


The Soup Nazi
04-20-2006, 3:31 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it alright for me to call whoever is at the top of the military chain of command a moron? Now I personally don't have a problem with diverting the SKS/AK-47 ammunition to Iraq, the police and army over there probably need it a lot more than we do, but who was the genius who thought it was a great idea to destroy any munitions we found when we're going to be diverting most of our munitions to Iraq anyways? I guess someone was sleeping during the "Common Sense" course at West Point.

Stanze
04-20-2006, 3:39 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it alright for me to call whoever is at the top of the military chain of command a moron? Now I personally don't have a problem with diverting the SKS/AK-47 ammunition to Iraq, the police and army over there probably need it a lot more than we do, but who was the genius who thought it was a great idea to destroy any munitions we found when we're going to be diverting most of our munitions to Iraq anyways? I guess someone was sleeping during the "Common Sense" course at West Point.

The top of the military chain of command would be the President of the United States of America.

The Soup Nazi
04-20-2006, 3:44 PM
Well, alright, drop down a few rungs.

Veritas_223
04-20-2006, 3:44 PM
If we used the 7.62x39 already there then no one would make money...Someone is making money selling arms, ammo and training to the new Iraqi Army..I would have left the old Iraqi Army intact and just replaced the Saddamist officers. However, our military industrial complex makes more money they way we are going now..

The Soup Nazi
04-20-2006, 3:50 PM
I thought we were just diverting all the imported ammo and putting Winchester and Wolf on military contracts instead of letting the stuff get into civilian hands.

vrylak
04-20-2006, 3:55 PM
It'll be, too, much to sort out and time consuming not to mention the manpower and equipment needed for these things, you're not sure if they'll even work if and when the time comes when you really need it, lives are at stake. You would rather arm your forces with reliable munitions that at least you know have a far better chance that'll work than those that've been sitting in the sun for years

Yute
04-20-2006, 4:59 PM
A. Does not always happen.
B. Ammunition will be destroyed if it is judged to be of poor quality or in dangerous condition.
C. Ammunition will be destroyed if it cannot be secured.

Is there some particular source you are drawing your question from? There are many reasons why captured ammunition should be destroyed; unless you have the full picture of the situation then questioning a commander's "common sense" lacks common sense itself :)

Where did you get the info for this statment?
I thought we were just diverting all the imported ammo and putting Winchester and Wolf on military contracts instead of letting the stuff get into civilian hands.

Edited to add:
There seems to be a lot of heresay about various contracts (e.g. wolf) for 7.62x39 going to Iraq, I have yet to find one concrete piece of evidence to support that. I do know the Bulgaria and other countries have provided support but has there actually be a DOD contract for 7.62x39 ammo? If not then the question is probably moot.

koshkin
04-20-2006, 6:15 PM
I. obviously, do not know all the details, but from what I understand a lot of the ammo warehouses in Iraq were boobytrapped. Going in there and trying to disarm the explosives is costly and dangerous. On top of that, a lot of the ammo there was of very subpar quality and would need to be thoroughly inspected before use. It might just be cheaper, and perhaps more importantly, quicker to just purchase new ammunition from approved suppliers who do their own QC.

ILya

brando
04-20-2006, 6:33 PM
There is a LOT of crap ammo over there, period.

jerryg1776
04-20-2006, 8:57 PM
Would you bet your life on captured ammo and munitions that may have dubious QA / QC and may or may not function, and could possibly be overcharged / undercharged, boobytrapped or rigged to explode on use? or would you rather have ammo and munitions that you know will work?

Didnt US forces in Vietnam boobytrap and leave some munitions that we "captured / found" so that the owners would try to use them and have a nasty surprise?

never bet your life on the other mans weapon or munitions, use yours first and his as a last resort.

The Soup Nazi
04-20-2006, 9:28 PM
Ah, I see your points. Its still an inconveniance, but, enter fourth generation warfare.

metalhead357
04-20-2006, 10:28 PM
Let us not forget the stranglehold(s) that ATF, the state department, customs, and arguable even the domestic gun industry have over decsions of what gets destroyed or deployed over her or over there.

One of the best bits of advice I'd picked up in my years was about Cars and car parts; manufactures usually make 1.5-2.0 times the amount of PARTS for cars as they do actual cars. Parts often not used withinn 5-7 years are summarily HALVED...as in take half the product number and destroy it:eek: Can ya' guess what it does to the price of the remaing parts?

So whiel not a DIRECT correlation- me thinks me smells a rat. Places up in WAYYYYY north Cali (like Herlong) are ammo disposal dumps that are STILL DESTROYING munitions from WWI. Yes that is a (1)! Granted there are safty concerns with stuff THAT old but the peeps & perps I've known that worked there claim they've got years and years worth of work ahead of them just to get to and through WWII munitions:cool:
And all the while ammo prices have what? Quaddruppled in less than 10 years! I used to get boxes of 9mm for $3.00! $4.50 in 1995......... and HOW much are you paying now?

Its NOT all just "inflation".......... and its NOT just "all" from the military.....

Noonanda
04-20-2006, 11:38 PM
lets talk about the ammo I have seen for AKs and PKMs. the majority of the ammo they are using is surplus ammo from other countries. The AK ammo is a mix of chinese brass cased romainian surplus, with some other laquered cased ammo as well. The 7.62x54R for the PKM and dragunov variants is either romanian, Albanian, or bulgarian surplus, plus some Yugo privi partsan ammo mixed in. Just so there is no doubt, I am an Iraqi infantry company advisor so I do see what ammo they are filling their magazines and ammo belts with and I have yet to see any wolf marked ammo. we have been pretty dang busy here needless to say, been in some decent fights but most of the time it is about 4 insurgents firing a mag or 2 in our general direction then running away.

I'll try to pop in more often

The Soup Nazi
04-21-2006, 5:53 AM
Well, I mean Wolf /is/ surplus ammo, just with a commercial box so people aren't afraid to fire corrossive munitions, maybe they don't have to do the whole commercialization thing because they aren't shipping it to America and the Iraqis need whatever they can get.

Also, I also blame the rising price of ammunition on the taxes on importation of ammo.

koshkin
04-21-2006, 10:54 AM
Wolf is not corrosive. They had one early batch with corrosive primers, but that was several years ago and everything else imported by Wolf is not corrosive. Generally speaking, Wolf is a brand name for an American company that imports ammo form a few places: Russia, Germany (22LR) and Serbia (new Wolf Gold). If it is not imported here, then it would not be called Wolf.

ILya

Bling Bling 2.0
04-21-2006, 11:54 AM
Would you bet your life on captured ammo and munitions that may have dubious QA / QC and may or may not function, and could possibly be overcharged / undercharged, boobytrapped or rigged to explode on use? or would you rather have ammo and munitions that you know will work?

Didnt US forces in Vietnam boobytrap and leave some munitions that we "captured / found" so that the owners would try to use them and have a nasty surprise?

never bet your life on the other mans weapon or munitions, use yours first and his as a last resort.

I dunno... Betting my life on an AK sounds better than betting my life on a vietnam era AR. In combat I'd take reliability over accuracy any day. Newer AR's are much better but it took a good 6 months before my bushmaster would cycle an entire magazine. My MAK-90 has only had 1 jam in over 5k rounds. Scoreboard doesn't lie.

But your point about boobytrapped cache's is a very good point.