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View Full Version : 5 or more multiple PPT's in a year


MarCay08
07-24-2010, 7:55 AM
Any input would help. thanks in advance folks!!

ok, this year alone I had bought 1 lower reciever and 1 pistol new from a gun shop. I also sold the same lower reciever,my mossberg shotgun and .308 bolt action (3 separate PPT's). I PPT'd 3 pistols, and a lever action (all from the same person). I have my eye on a couple more pistols. Now my question is, will my transactions fall within the 5-6 purchases/year? Will this get me in trouble? I know that transferring multiple handguns already raises a red flag as the store has to send extra paper works when someone purchases multiple handguns in one shot. Would this affect me in purchasing (PPT) anymore handguns/rifles?

Does the 5-6 rule only apply to NEW purhases or does it include PPT's? I read somewhere here that DOJ doesnt specifically put a number but to be on the safe side to stay under 6/year.

Pls give me some insight on this so that i wont have to keep buying all the pretty handguns/rifles here on Calguns!!! It's cutting deep into my pockets!!

thanks again

bombadillo
07-24-2010, 8:06 AM
Don't do it, I got flagged for awhile and they basically said no more transfers or you're going to be getting an FFL.

MarCay08
07-24-2010, 8:38 AM
I believe the rule only applies to sales. Purchases are limited to your wallet or wife.

That's what I'm thingking because they wouldnt let you do multiple PPt's at one time if that rule applies.

Vin496
07-24-2010, 8:40 AM
Does the 5-6 rule only apply to NEW purhases or does it include PPT's? I read somewhere here that DOJ doesnt specifically put a number but to be on the safe side to stay under 6/year.

Pls give me some insight on this so that i wont have to keep buying all the pretty handguns/rifles here on Calguns!!! It's cutting deep into my pockets!!

thanks again

The 5-6 rule is for PPT sales, it has nothing to do with purchases(new or PPT). It is also different sales, for instance you sell Tom 4 rifles at one time, that only counts as 1 PPT.

Of course the limiting factor on new purchases on pistols is the 1-30 rule, and no limit on rifle purchases.

littlejake
07-24-2010, 9:41 AM
Don't do it, I got flagged for awhile and they basically said no more transfers or you're going to be getting an FFL.

Who flagged you? ATF or CA DOJ? Was it by letter?

biglou
07-24-2010, 12:37 PM
Who flagged you? ATF or CA DOJ? Was it by letter?

I was wondering the same thing. How did they "flag" you ?

sevensix2x51
07-24-2010, 1:08 PM
ehh, ive done 5 or 6 ppt sales in the past month. should i be worried?

Quiet
07-24-2010, 1:15 PM
More than 6 handgun PPTs (in which you are the seller) in a calendar year, can get you in trouble as an unlicensed dealer.




Penal Code 12070
(a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless he or she has been issued a license pursuant to Section 12071. Any person violating this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not include any of the following:
(4) The infrequent sale, lease, or transfer of firearms.
(c)(1) As used in this section, "infrequent" means:
(A) For pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, less than six transactions per calendar year. For this purpose, "transaction" means a single sale, lease, or transfer of any number of pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person.
(B) For firearms other than pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, occasional and without regularity.

sevensix2x51
07-24-2010, 1:23 PM
whew, i think im ok. i thought it was for ALL ppt sales.. thanks! (note to self- dont sell any more handguns!)

bombadillo
07-24-2010, 7:07 PM
Who flagged you? ATF or CA DOJ? Was it by letter?

Sorry it took so long, worked all day. I was flagged by the DOJ and what happened was that they just blocked my name from sales until a phone call was made. My FFL ended up making a call and asked what the deal was and he came back with the "slap on the wrist" and said they basically told him that this was my last transfer this year and it was around august/sept or so. It was really no big deal but when he came back and said that if I want to do any more transfers I have to get an FFL it was a bit of a wake up.

1 SIG fan
07-24-2010, 8:01 PM
How the F can they stop you from liquidating personal assets for cash in a economic crissis. Thats insane

littlejake
07-24-2010, 8:18 PM
How the F can they stop you from liquidating personal assets for cash in a economic crissis. Thats insane

Well, one can liquidate all their guns if necessary. If I understand correctly it's not the number of guns it's the number of transfers. i.e. --- if you owned 20 guns you could sell them all to one person in a single transaction; or multiple guns to as many as 5 persons in 5 transactions... (following the law about using a dealer to do the transfers.)

BTW -- bombadillo, Thanks for telling us the way they "flagged" you. Good to know. I'm guessing the DROS software at DOJ is set up to block more than 5 transfers in a calendar year (I wonder if that's a running 12 month window?)

Robidouxs
07-24-2010, 8:24 PM
What does not make any sense is that they know that the pistol is going from you to person x, all information is present on the seller and person x. Just like you DROSing 20 of one type of pistol, they know exactly who, where, and when you are selling. It is not a though you are on the street corner handing out pistols in a brown bag to whomever passes on by.

At least I am now aware of the limit, I am very surprised I did not know this.

Robidouxs
07-24-2010, 8:26 PM
I'm still attempting to comprehend this "calendar" year limitation. Does it really mean the following? Just trying to clarify so there is no confusion.

-the seller shall be limited to only 5 PPT of handguns for the entire year of 2010 before being mandated to retain an FFL.

MarCay08
07-24-2010, 8:53 PM
More than 6 handgun PPTs (in which you are the seller) in a calendar year, can get you in trouble as an unlicensed dealer.




Penal Code 12070
(a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless he or she has been issued a license pursuant to Section 12071. Any person violating this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not include any of the following:
(4) The infrequent sale, lease, or transfer of firearms.
(c)(1) As used in this section, "infrequent" means:
(A) For pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, less than six transactions per calendar year. For this purpose, "transaction" means a single sale, lease, or transfer of any number of pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person.
(B) For firearms other than pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, occasional and without regularity.

if this is the case, then I am still in GOOD terms!! (yahoooooo!!!) I havent sold any pistols, only rifles. i bought 3 from one person and did it all in one day. i did another ppt from a friend last week (sold me his XD9 tactical in OD green)

Again, THANK YOU ALL for the inputs...

J-cat
07-24-2010, 9:20 PM
Sorry it took so long, worked all day. I was flagged by the DOJ and what happened was that they just blocked my name from sales until a phone call was made. My FFL ended up making a call and asked what the deal was and he came back with the "slap on the wrist" and said they basically told him that this was my last transfer this year and it was around august/sept or so. It was really no big deal but when he came back and said that if I want to do any more transfers I have to get an FFL it was a bit of a wake up.

How many did you sell before being flagged?

Mike's Custom
07-24-2010, 9:30 PM
There is no limit on purchases or selling firearms. What ther eis a limit on is buying and selling for profit and not having a FFL. So I would that think if you buy and sell the same guns that might raise a flag. I ahve been a FFL since '93 and I don't know of anyone that has been refused for the reason you stated. So I would think that they are thinking you are trafficing in firearms.

J-cat
07-24-2010, 9:50 PM
There is a 5 handgun limit. DOJ does not know if you sold for profit or at a loss.

AlliedArmory
07-24-2010, 10:31 PM
I'll gladly get a FFL if they will approve it in my house :)

bombadillo
07-24-2010, 11:07 PM
How many did you sell before being flagged?

I had done somewhere between 5-10 AR lowers. I bought them and built them up from a receiver to a full AR and sold them at a profit. After selling a bunch, they "flagged" me or blocked the ability for me to do a transfer so I couldn't sell anymore for 6 months or so.

J-cat
07-25-2010, 10:10 PM
Should I sell five or should I sell six, that is my question.

landslide03
08-06-2010, 5:11 AM
How did they flag you if you sold complete rifles the law states that it must be a handgun or other gun being able to be conceiled on a person? Wouldnt that be considered a rifle and not be part of the 5 gun limit?

littlejake
08-06-2010, 6:12 AM
How did they flag you if you sold complete rifles the law states that it must be a handgun or other gun being able to be conceiled on a person? Wouldnt that be considered a rifle and not be part of the 5 gun limit?

For long guns the language is infrequently and without regularity -- it's undefined as to number. If they suspect unlicensed dealing, then they can shut it down in an arbitrary and capricious fashion.

nn3453
08-06-2010, 7:12 AM
Can someone here confirm or deny if the "transfer" word in the PC applies to purchases? A purchase is a PPT transfer? I rarely sell my guns, but I do buy PPT handguns quite frequently.


Thanks.
More than 6 handgun PPTs (in which you are the seller) in a calendar year, can get you in trouble as an unlicensed dealer.




Penal Code 12070
(a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless he or she has been issued a license pursuant to Section 12071. Any person violating this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not include any of the following:
(4) The infrequent sale, lease, or transfer of firearms.
(c)(1) As used in this section, "infrequent" means:
(A) For pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, less than six transactions per calendar year. For this purpose, "transaction" means a single sale, lease, or transfer of any number of pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person.
(B) For firearms other than pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, occasional and without regularity.

leelaw
08-06-2010, 8:49 AM
Don't do it, I got flagged for awhile and they basically said no more transfers or you're going to be getting an FFL.

You must have been selling a lot of handguns.

The OP is talking about purchasing via PPT, in which case there is no limit of either handguns or longguns.

The "less than 6 transactions" limit is for the sales of handguns.

More than 6 handgun PPTs (in which you are the seller) in a calendar year, can get you in trouble as an unlicensed dealer. Actually, more than five transactions can run afoul of the law.

leelaw
08-06-2010, 8:53 AM
I had done somewhere between 5-10 AR lowers. I bought them and built them up from a receiver to a full AR and sold them at a profit. After selling a bunch, they "flagged" me or blocked the ability for me to do a transfer so I couldn't sell anymore for 6 months or so.

That's pretty much exactly what ATF was looking to regulate when they said that those who buy, upgrade, and flip guns for a profit need an FFL.

If you're buying receivers, finishing the gun and selling for a profit, that's dealing as far as ATF/DOJ is concerned. You lucked out with just a warning.

bombadillo
08-06-2010, 9:10 AM
Well, they did their job! :D I learned my lesson on it and stopped. I'm not trying to do that anymore, but I do still assemble and "build" ar's as far as friends are concerned.

porky
08-06-2010, 9:30 AM
There are a couple of vet members on this board that seem to sell way more than five guns per year(not c&r)- are they ffls or just getting lucky?I've been a member for about that long and I'm reading the classifieds almost everyday- I'm not trying to point anyone out for scrutiny, Does calguns the site warn any of their members that "seem" to be regularly flipping guns-buying from craigslist selling for a profit- buying a weapon for a great deal on Calguns and waiting a month or more to post it for a profit-

Again just wondering if moderators do the service of warning members that "seem" to be in violation-;)

leelaw
08-06-2010, 9:40 AM
There are a couple of vet members on this board that seem to sell way more than five guns per year(not c&r)- are they ffls or just getting lucky?I've been a member for about that long and I'm reading the classifieds almost everyday- I'm not trying to point anyone out for scrutiny, Does calguns the site warn any of their members that "seem" to be regularly flipping guns-buying from craigslist selling for a profit- buying a weapon for a great deal on Calguns and waiting a month or more to post it for a profit-

Again just wondering if moderators do the service of warning members that "seem" to be in violation-;)

There have been some who are reminded of the law and that DOJ and BATFE enforce it.

Remember that the law covers:
Buying to resell for profit
Selling handguns (less than 6 transactions per year)
Selling longguns (for income generation, and more than an "infrequent sale" - no number limit is codified)

Icarus
08-06-2010, 11:53 AM
Isn't this called the "Gun Show Loop Hole" in free States?

Mike's Custom
08-06-2010, 12:20 PM
There have been some who are reminded of the law and that DOJ and BATFE enforce it.

Remember that the law covers:
Buying to resell for profit
Selling handguns (less than 6 transactions per year)
Selling longguns (for income generation, and more than an "infrequent sale" - no number limit is codified)

Federal law states that if you buy a firearm to resale you must have a FFL. They don't have any limit, just intent. If you buy it just to resale then you will need a FFL. My brother-in-law and his brother are both retired BATFE agents but while they were active I asked them about this. I asked if a non FFL had a co-worker that needed money fast and was selling a firearm for half it's value and you knew you could sell it for more then the purchase price, kind of a once in a life time deal, would they need a FFL. Their answe was yes but that the BAFTE would not do anything about it unless the guns was used in a crime and it could be traced back to the seller. They told me that they do not look for this type of deal, that could be different today, but they would take action if the person was doing this all the time.

bombadillo
08-06-2010, 7:44 PM
I figure so long as I'm not buying and selling for profit I'm fine now. I spoke with DOJ and my local FFL and he's a solid guy who gave me the low down so I know what I have to do to cover my butt. Just don't make a habit out of doing that yourself and learn from my lesson. This is a free board and we don't always know if somebody is selling a gun on behalf of other people so I wouldn't be too quick to judge something like that. Take care and cover your butts.

JTROKS
08-06-2010, 8:02 PM
Darn it! I've already done 3 this year, but it's not for profit. Just ridiculous I tell you.

MarCay08
08-06-2010, 10:00 PM
all the ones i have sold were at a loss!!! i think that it should be common sense in the authorities part that you buy a gun, use it, obviously you cannot sell it for profit!!! freakin morons are suppose to be college grads!!!

i see the part where yes, you buy 10 and build and sell for profit..ok fine, but that is showing an obvious pattern.(no offense) in my point of view, if a firearm is purchased through an FFL new and sold to a private party 2 or 3 months later, how can DOJ not see that the gun has been used and cannot be sold for the purchase price or even make profit out of it... (unless you bought a super dooper special gun for $1 and sold it for 1k)... freakin stupid idiots!!!!!!

Munk
08-07-2010, 12:36 AM
all the ones i have sold were at a loss!!! i think that it should be common sense in the authorities part that you buy a gun, use it, obviously you cannot sell it for profit!!! freakin morons are suppose to be college grads!!!

i see the part where yes, you buy 10 and build and sell for profit..ok fine, but that is showing an obvious pattern.(no offense) in my point of view, if a firearm is purchased through an FFL new and sold to a private party 2 or 3 months later, how can DOJ not see that the gun has been used and cannot be sold for the purchase price or even make profit out of it... (unless you bought a super dooper special gun for $1 and sold it for 1k)... freakin stupid idiots!!!!!!

There are a number of guns that appreciate in value, either because of changes in manufacturing, or because of the company discontinuing the firearm. Sometimes it's just a limited run collector's edition. yes, even after firing them, many retain their value (though, usually not the CE).


To say that no firearm can ever be sold for a profit (not talking upgraded/built) is rediculous. One gun i've been looking to purchase has more than doubled in value in the past 4 years, and i just want it because it's cool.

MarCay08
08-07-2010, 7:33 AM
There are a number of guns that appreciate in value, either because of changes in manufacturing, or because of the company discontinuing the firearm. Sometimes it's just a limited run collector's edition. yes, even after firing them, many retain their value (though, usually not the CE).


To say that no firearm can ever be sold for a profit (not talking upgraded/built) is rediculous. One gun i've been looking to purchase has more than doubled in value in the past 4 years, and i just want it because it's cool.


I am not saying Guns dont appreciate in value, or retain value. If you read my post it was only a matter of months, less that 6 months. I agree with you on the appreciation on "SOME" firearms. a WWII firearm can be sold for thousands in the market today. I am not saying I took a big loss either ($50 + tax), regardless, I took a loss. I needed the money to buy what I want. If I was doing this on the side street, then fine and dandy, come take me...ALL of my firearms were purchased at an FFL dealer and ALL of the PPT transfer were done at an FFL.

Yes some models do get discontinued, value is going to appreciate, yes some models may be in the roster this year, that same model may not be, value goes up...Those thing takes a year or years!! I am talking simply in 3-4,5 months within the year!!

Swoop
08-07-2010, 12:58 PM
Well crap I've never heard of this and done more than that amount if u include trades which I'm sure they do... This is great....

Falstaff
08-07-2010, 2:22 PM
So if a guys takes advantage of TDS's lower sale, buys 10 lowers, builds 5 for family members and PPT xfers them this year he should be OK??

I miss the 80's. EVERYONE had an 01 FFL! I had one, people got them for their DOGS even!! (remeber that?) It was so cool to be able to call RSR West in Sparks on Monday, order an Uzi, or a Colt 45 or practically anything else and have it in your hands on Tuesday!