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View Full Version : (Gunbroker) Assault Weapon for Sale in Cali


Cali-Shooter
07-23-2010, 2:47 PM
A LR-300 Sporter with 4 apparently preban thermold 30 rd magazines. This has been around for months. Wonder if the owner knows that he can't sell it in this state... :mad:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=180532312

dieselpower
07-23-2010, 3:32 PM
Not seeing the problem. He can not offer the high caps for sale in CA, but since he says all firearms laws apply, that means the exemptions for selling the firearm and magazines in CA apply...ie only a person allowed under the law to buy this can. no violation of law here.

at least as I see it.

.22guy
07-23-2010, 3:34 PM
Is there something that says he is selling this to CA residents only? There are probably 48-49 other states where this would be legal.....

MicronuT
07-23-2010, 3:36 PM
Its not a california only based site. Many from out of state qualify for this

dieselpower
07-23-2010, 3:40 PM
even if he said "Only for sale in CA" it is legal since he stated, firearm laws apply. There are people in CA who can still buy Cat1 AWs and high cap mags in Ca.

ke6guj
07-23-2010, 3:49 PM
I can't tell if it has a mag lock or not, but if it doesn't, then it is an AW, and unless he is an AW dealer, it is illegal to "offer for sale" an AW in CA. It doesn't matter if there is someone who can buy it, it is illegal for an non-AW dealer to offer for sale an AW in CA.

that would be a separate issue from the large-capacity magazine.

Turbinator
07-24-2010, 8:30 AM
I can't tell if it has a mag lock or not, but if it doesn't, then it is an AW, and unless he is an AW dealer, it is illegal to "offer for sale" an AW in CA. It doesn't matter if there is someone who can buy it, it is illegal for an non-AW dealer to offer for sale an AW in CA.

that would be a separate issue from the large-capacity magazine.

Yup.

But could he advertise it for sale to non-CA buyers?

Does the phrase "offer for sale an AW in CA" mean that the offer cannot be to another CA resident, or the offer cannot be made in CA regardless of who the buyer is?

Turby

ke6guj
07-24-2010, 9:33 AM
Yup.

But could he advertise it for sale to non-CA buyers?

Does the phrase "offer for sale an AW in CA" mean that the offer cannot be to another CA resident, or the offer cannot be made in CA regardless of who the buyer is?

Turby

all I can do is point to the PC.

12280. (a)(1) Any person who, within this state, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, distributes, transports, or imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives or lends any assault weapon or any .50 BMG rifle, except as provided by this chapter, is guilty of a felony, and upon conviction shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for four, six, or eight years.
To, me, it appears that if the person is in CA and offering/exposing the AW for sale, that it is a violation.

It may be able to read that the offer must be made in CA, and that an out-of-state listing (a non-CA website perhaps) may not violate the law.

Unit74
07-24-2010, 10:35 AM
all I can do is point to the PC.


To, me, it appears that if the person is in CA and offering/exposing the AW for sale, that it is a violation.

It may be able to read that the offer must be made in CA, and that an out-of-state listing (a non-CA website perhaps) may not violate the law.

Did you go read the "except as provided by this chapter" of the PC when you made your assumption?

Hayashi Killian
07-24-2010, 10:42 AM
Maybe I'm just thinking outside the box here, but perhaps the person selling that is an AW dealer? Or has an SOT?

Cali-Shooter
07-24-2010, 10:42 AM
When I said that I wonder if the owner doesn't know that he can't sell it in this state, I meant that I wonder if he doesn't know that he can't sell it to non-LEO's here in Cali, I'm not sure of the PC, but I'm sure that he could sell the rifle + mags to out of state residents. I know that he could sell the mags out of state or to CA Leo's, riflegear sells hi-caps out of state despite being in Cali.

ke6guj
07-24-2010, 5:57 PM
Did you go read the "except as provided by this chapter" of the PC when you made your assumption?wht assumption did I make? And yes, I did read the PC and did not find an exemption for a non-AW dealer or private party in this state to offer/expose for sale an AW when the expected buyer is to be an out-of-state buyer or an LEO with a dept love letter.

Yes, it is legal to sell for me to sell an AW to an LEO if they have a love letter, but I read the exemption as extending to the transfer, not the advertising.



12280. (a)(1) Any person who, within this state, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, distributes, transports, or imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives or lends any assault weapon or any .50 BMG rifle, except as provided by this chapter, is guilty of a felony, and upon conviction shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for four, six, or eight years.

(e) Subdivisions (a), (b), and (c) shall not apply to the sale to, purchase by, importation of, or possession of assault weapons or a . 50 BMG rifle by the Department of Justice, police departments, sheriffs' offices, marshals' offices, the Youth and Adult Corrections Agency, the Department of the California Highway Patrol, district attorneys' offices, Department of Fish and Game, Department of Parks and Recreation, or the military or naval forces of this state or of the United States, or any federal law enforcement agency for use in the discharge of their official duties.

(f)(2) Subdivisions (a), (b), and (c) shall not prohibit the delivery, transfer, or sale of an assault weapon or a .50 BMG rifle to, or the possession of an assault weapon or a .50 BMG rifle by, a sworn peace officer member of an agency specified in subdivision (e), provided that the peace officer is authorized by his or her employer to possess or receive the assault weapon or the .50 BMG rifle. Required authorization is defined as verifiable written certification from the head of the agency, identifying the recipient or possessor of the assault weapon as a peace officer and authorizing him or her to receive or possess the specific assault weapon. For this exemption to apply, in the case of a peace officer who possesses or receives the assault weapon prior to January 1, 2002, the officer shall register the assault weapon pursuant to Section 12285 on or before April 1, 2002; in the case of a peace officer who possesses or receives the assault weapon on or after January 1, 2002, the officer shall register the assault weapon pursuant to Section 12285 not later than 90 days after possession or receipt. In the case of a peace officer who possesses or receives a .50 BMG rifle on or before January 1, 2005, the officer shall register the .50 BMG rifle on or before April 30, 2006. In the case of a peace officer who possesses or receives a .50 BMG rifle after January 1, 2005, the officer shall register the .50 BMG rifle not later than one year after possession or receipt. The peace officer must include with the registration, a copy of the authorization required pursuant to this paragraph.

Unit74
07-24-2010, 9:19 PM
Two minutes on CA DOJ is all it took:


If you have a registered assault weapon that you no longer want to keep, you have three options:

1. Sell the weapon to a licensed gun dealer who has an assault weapons permit; or
2. Make arrangements with your local police or sheriff's office to relinquish your assault weapon. CALL FIRST. DO NOT GO TO THE POLICE OR SHERIFF'S OFFICE WITHOUT FIRST MAKING ARRANGEMENTS; or
3. Remove the weapon from this state.


Since removal from the state is a legal option, and the GB transaction would be occurring "somewhere else" outside Ca., the weapon is not for sale in Ca. or to a CA resident.

Is it semantics.....of course. But that's the reality of the matter. It is a removal from the state. And since it is property which holds value, there can be no reasonable expectation for a person attempting to comply with the removal to sustain a financial loss to comply.

It is quite easy to argue that the AW is not in fact, for sale in Ca. The actual sale will occur in Texas, Arizona or Utah etc., etc.....

ke6guj
07-24-2010, 9:27 PM
Since removal from the state is a legal option, and the GB transaction would be occurring "somewhere else" outside Ca., the weapon is not for sale in Ca. or to a CA resident.

Is it semantics.....of course. But that's the reality of the matter. It is a removal from the state. And since it is property which holds value, there can be no reasonable expectation for a person attempting to comply with the removal to sustain a financial loss to comply.

It is quite easy to argue that the AW is not in fact, for sale in Ca. The actual sale will occur in Texas, Arizona or Utah etc., etc.....that would not be a position I would want to argue in court. If you want to, go ahead.

Faust
07-24-2010, 9:32 PM
With regard to the seller and his item I say just MYOB.

Unit74
07-24-2010, 9:45 PM
that would not be a position I would want to argue in court. If you want to, go ahead.


If you are all hot and bothered about the issue, cal DOJ on Monday and ask. Report back to the thread with the cirqs.

I think it's quite a valid argument but I'm in no position to take anything like it on. Maybe the thread should be moved to the 2A forum? Seems more appropriate there with all the sea lawyers more willing to dive in on the matter.

Centurion_D
07-24-2010, 9:51 PM
That's gotta be one of the ugliest AR's I've ever seen. The pistol grip looks weird.

ke6guj
07-24-2010, 11:54 PM
If you are all hot and bothered about the issue, cal DOJ on Monday and ask. Report back to the thread with the cirqs.

I think it's quite a valid argument but I'm in no position to take anything like it on. Maybe the thread should be moved to the 2A forum? Seems more appropriate there with all the sea lawyers more willing to dive in on the matter.

I'm not hot and bothered by it. I just said that it was illegal to offer it for sale in CA. Nothing in his add said anything about "out-of-state" or LEO sales only. So, as the add stood, I felt that it would be a violation of 12280(a). But since I am not in a position to affect him, it doesn't directly affect me if he is actually in violation.

Ed_Hazard
07-25-2010, 12:00 AM
Wow if you liked that one check out the Stoner Rifle he also has listed, who would've thought you'd find that in Santa Monica.


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=181278265

Cokebottle
07-25-2010, 12:19 AM
even if he said "Only for sale in CA" it is legal since he stated, firearm laws apply. There are people in CA who can still buy Cat1 AWs and high cap mags in Ca.
Unless he is an FFL with a high-cap permit, he cannot "offer for sale" high cap mags in California... even TO exempt persons OR to out of state residents.

And unless he is an FFL with an AW permit, he cannot offer to sell an AW, and if the AW is not registered to him, he cannot even be in possession.

BigDogatPlay
07-25-2010, 3:19 AM
Well the original auction for the LR 300 ended with no bids.

End of story, or so it would seem.

ke6guj
07-25-2010, 1:00 PM
item was relisted, so not end of story.

garandguy10
07-25-2010, 1:30 PM
I am going to assume that the rifles buttstock folds and it does accept detachable magazines. If this is true, unless he is a bonified AW dealer, he can not advertise or offer to sell that weapon,or the Normal capacity magazines; assuming that the weapon and magazines are in California, or he is planning to ship them from anywhere in California.
Now if that weapon and magazines are say, in Nevada, and he plans to ship them from Nevada, then he is good to go. It would be very wise of him to mention that in his ad, before the hammer falls.

IMHO, he is cruising for a very unpleasant, early morning visit from the Jack Boots of CA BOF with a search warrant, and a long, expensive journey through the Criminal Justice system.

Cali-Shooter
07-25-2010, 6:15 PM
I am going to assume that the rifles buttstock folds and it does accept detachable magazines. If this is true, unless he is a bonified AW dealer, he can not advertise or offer to sell that weapon,or the Normal capacity magazines; assuming that the weapon and magazines are in California, or he is planning to ship them from anywhere in California.
Now if that weapon and magazines are say, in Nevada, and he plans to ship them from Nevada, then he is good to go. It would be very wise of him to mention that in his ad, before the hammer falls.

IMHO, he is cruising for a very unpleasant, early morning visit from the Jack Boots of CA BOF with a search warrant, and a long, expensive journey through the Criminal Justice system.

The seller appears to be selling from CA, since gunbroker takes your home/office address and the shown address is supposed to be the item location. I'd say he is GTG as long as he mentions "All federal and state laws apply" or "This auction not for sale to Californians unless they are an AW dealer, LEO, or Military with approval letter, etc."
With his somewhat ludicrous shipping of $50, it looks like the intention is primarily to sell out of state.

CSACANNONEER
07-25-2010, 6:23 PM
Unless he is licensed to do so, he can not offer these items for sale while they are in California. It really does not make a difference if he is only willing to sell them to someone in a state that they are legal in. The fact is that he is comitting multiple crimes by "offering them for sale".