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View Full Version : Straw sales or buying through LEOs?


1911Luvr
07-21-2010, 12:38 PM
I have been wanting a Colt Delta Elite or Delta Gold Cup for some time and finally found a few at good prices online, but of course they are "off list" and out of state so I'm probably SOL. I say probably because I'm wondering if the following scenario is a legal means of attaining said firearm. I have three neighbors that are LEOs, and as I understand it they are perfectly able to purchase this firearm but here's where I'm fuzzy as what I've read is unclear. When I worked in a gun store 20 years ago, it was called a straw sale for someone to purchase a firearm on behalf of another who was not legally able to purchase it for himself, which is illegal. If one of my LEO friends buys the gun and sells it to me, is that a red flag to DOJ and is there any possible repercussions that could be a problem for myself or them? Would they need to actually own the firearm for a period of time before selling it to me or can they just do a FTF transfer after it is DROS'd?

Thanks in advance for your help!

nn3453
07-21-2010, 12:44 PM
That is not technically a straw sale if you eligible to own firearms, but very likely their department is not gonna like it. Don't get your LEO buddies in trouble. An occasional sale is fine, but it takes one liberal reporter to smear the department and cause the guy to lose his job.

halon101
07-21-2010, 1:36 PM
i have been looking at the same problem. i want a beretta centurion its off list. i have a friend in north carolina that can buy it and he is coming to visit in a month. i asked my ffl and they said he cant do the transfer even ftf because he is from a different state. so i was thinking LEO.......i have a buddy, but dont know what he will think about it.

Juice5610
07-21-2010, 1:46 PM
Get a H&K P30L then sell it to me k thanks:D

Bullwinkle
07-21-2010, 1:51 PM
A straw sale is when someone buys a gun and gives it to another person (e.g. a gang banger). If your LEO buddy sells it to you--in other words, if there's a paper trail--it's not a straw sale because the handgun will indeed be registered to you.

That's my understanding, but of course I am not a lawyer. One of the first questions they ask you on Form 4473 is if you are the person for whom the firearm is actually being purchased.

But regardless, I agree with the consensus. You're not a very good buddy if you're willing to put the LEOs in that position. You're messing with their livelihood.

cgmoe
07-21-2010, 1:54 PM
its not a straw sale if a LEO buys an off list weapon for himself, then later decides he doesn't want it and sells it appropriately (without high caps if applicable) . If you give him the $ to purchase it, that is a different story.

Malthusian
07-21-2010, 1:56 PM
It is nearly impossible to do a straw sale in CA because he would sell it you legally in a PPT.
You would have your background checked. The grey area is the amount of time he owned the firearm. If he did it once, sat on it awhile and sold it to you, I am sure it would be fine. If he sold it the next day or did it more then once. You get the idea.

Munk
07-21-2010, 2:01 PM
Just convince your LEO buddy that it's a great gun that he should buy for himself to try out. If it turns out he doesn't like it. (i.e. the front sight is too... 'front sightey' for his tastes for all it matters) Or maybe he decided that it wasn't financially wise for him to keep the gun. He can then sell it to you, since he no longer wants it and he is under no obligation to keep the firearm.

1911Luvr
07-21-2010, 2:27 PM
I certainly don't want to get anyone in trouble, so that is why I asked the question. So basically the idea is that he buys the gun, doesn't like it, then sells it to me a period of time after he gets it. I'm not asking him to purchase multiple firearms or hi-cap firearms (although the release of the new XDM-45 makes it very tempting), I just want to add that 10mm 1911 to my collection which due to the silly CA gun laws is difficult for me to do without a little help. We are all friends, so I'll talk it over with them and see how they feel about it.

Thanks for the help! Calgunners rock!

neomedic
07-21-2010, 3:04 PM
I guess the follow up question would be any idea when we might get some results from Pena? This would be moot if we win on Pena!!!

halon101
07-21-2010, 3:43 PM
so as long as you keep your stories strait and stick to them. the leo bought the gun for himself with his own funds. then after a short time changes his mind ,still loved his glock and sells the gun to his buddy.

norcal01
07-21-2010, 4:04 PM
When I worked as an LEO I had friends ask me to do this, however our department had a policy specifically prohibiting buying off-list handguns for the purpose of selling them to someone else. It didn't say anything about deciding you didn't like it and the selling it. The reason I never did it was that I figured if I did it for one person then others would want me to do it for them and one way or another the word would get around that officers were buying off-list pistols for their buddies. People like being friends with cops but if the cops start doing them favors it doesn't take long for everyone to find out. If your friend wants to do it for you, I don't think there's any way for you to get in trouble but I'd be worried about the possible problems it could cause him at work...

Colt
07-21-2010, 4:31 PM
Why don't you patiently keep looking for one for sale in your area? That's what a lot of us have done.
It wasn't that long ago I saw a coupe different Deltas for sale in my neck of the woods (somewhere south of Bakersfield and north of Tijuana).

JohnFLand
07-21-2010, 5:05 PM
OP: no out-of-state grandparent, parent or child? Or an in-state parent or grandparent, and an out-of-state sibling? Or an in-state parent, and an out-of-state nephew/niece? If you're married, you can work through both sides of the family tree (but if you use the wife's side and you want to register in your name, you'll have an extra step).

Anchors
07-21-2010, 6:09 PM
Just convince your LEO buddy that it's a great gun that he should buy for himself to try out. If it turns out he doesn't like it. (i.e. the front sight is too... 'front sightey' for his tastes for all it matters) Or maybe he decided that it wasn't financially wise for him to keep the gun. He can then sell it to you, since he no longer wants it and he is under no obligation to keep the firearm.

Hahaha I lol'd at "front sighty".
Next time I want to stave off an over eager salesmen I'm going to say "Yeah it's nice, but the front sight is a little too "front sighty", you know??"

Ron-Solo
07-21-2010, 6:16 PM
If your LEO friend buys it, make sure you do a private person transfer thru a licensed firearms dealer. It would not be considered a straw purchase in that situation.

robert101
07-21-2010, 7:53 PM
I know the feeling. My daughter is going away to college this Fall. She loves guns. She might even buy a gun or two that might not be on the DOJ list - her being a partial resident of another State. She might not even want one or more of the guns she buys. So being a good dad, I'll be ready to help her out if she needs to sell one of her guns - maybe to me. You have got to support your kids you know.

EBWhite
07-21-2010, 7:56 PM
just ask him. throw him a couple bucks for his help. nobody cares, its a legal sell...

leelaw
07-21-2010, 7:59 PM
It is not under the definition of a straw sale, but it may be dealing in firearms without a license.

badhabit90
07-21-2010, 8:55 PM
well then i guess IM stuck with some guns i can NEVER SELL because they were "off list"......

a "straw sale" is a purchasing of a firearm for someone that "will not qualify" to "purchase" or "own" a firearm(domestic violence or felon)....not because the firearm in question is not on the "list". a "private sale" is just that...private.(private party transfer-PPT) it doesnt mention if that particular firearm is on the "list" or not.

UNLESS the firearm in question is a "destructive device" or "assault weapon" -both of which are BANNED, then i dont see why it would pose a problem at all.......but the BATF may say different someday...however, i dont foresee LEO's purchasing all these guns for people and reselling them causing "red flags"....debatable.:cool:

Malthusian
07-22-2010, 4:54 AM
OP: no out-of-state grandparent, parent or child? Or an in-state parent or grandparent, and an out-of-state sibling? Or an in-state parent, and an out-of-state nephew/niece? If you're married, you can work through both sides of the family tree (but if you use the wife's side and you want to register in your name, you'll have an extra step).


There is also the Military option. I have (2) friends who sons are stationed in Florida with residence in CA. Military can purchase in the state there are stationed. Military ID plus Station orders equals purchase. They can send them home to daddy or bring them back on leave and sell them whenever.

Capt. Speirs
07-22-2010, 7:42 AM
Again, the DOJ and the ATF read these posts! :eek:

maschronic
07-22-2010, 7:45 AM
OP: no out-of-state grandparent, parent or child? Or an in-state parent or grandparent, and an out-of-state sibling? Or an in-state parent, and an out-of-state nephew/niece? If you're married, you can work through both sides of the family tree (but if you use the wife's side and you want to register in your name, you'll have an extra step).


so, if you have a brother in Texas. he can bring you an off list handgun and do a inter-family transfer? pay...i think $15 and mail the paper work to DOJ? is that correct?

BenjaminCA
07-22-2010, 7:48 AM
I guess I haven't followed this topic too much. But is it possible for my sister in texas to transfer a firearm to me? Let me know.

leelaw
07-22-2010, 8:44 AM
I guess I haven't followed this topic too much. But is it possible for my sister in texas to transfer a firearm to me? Let me know.

Only if its a non-banned longgun, or a pistol on the roster, and it must go through an FFL. Siblings are not exempted by the intrafamilial transfer.

leelaw
07-22-2010, 8:45 AM
so, if you have a brother in Texas. he can bring you an off list handgun and do a inter-family transfer? pay...i think $15 and mail the paper work to DOJ? is that correct?

Incorrect.

1911Luvr
07-22-2010, 11:09 AM
OP: no out-of-state grandparent, parent or child? Or an in-state parent or grandparent, and an out-of-state sibling? Or an in-state parent, and an out-of-state nephew/niece? If you're married, you can work through both sides of the family tree (but if you use the wife's side and you want to register in your name, you'll have an extra step).

Unfortunately I have no children, not married and all of my living family resides in this state. But now when I interview potential girlfriends I'll have to add the "do you have a relative with a Delta Elite?" to my list of questions!

Big Shrek
07-22-2010, 11:28 AM
Well, there are three other options...

1. Since you have a Pro-Gun governator ;) , push our local Cali Congressmen to repeal the Draconic Cali gun laws that suck.

2. Move to any other state but Illstate, New Yuck, or New Jerkwad (these are the most INNOCENT names they're called).

3. Become an LEO or join the Army or Air Farce.

Munk
07-22-2010, 1:21 PM
Intrafamilial transfer is VERTICAL lineage only. (child-parent-grandparent) any of those 3 can transfer across state lines while ignoring roster. (gotta pay for shipping + out of state transfer fees which vary WILDLY between FFLs since they're not capped like a PPT). You can zig-zag from sibling/cousin/nephew on upwards in the tree then have it descend the tree down to you.

LEO buddy can transfer a gun to you that is off roster without issue. To avoid looking "shady" in his departments and maybe DOJ's eyes, there should be some margin of time between their purchase of it, and you buying it FROM them. (steps, LEO buys gun with THEIR OWN MONEY for "their own use", something changes in their life, and they decide they no longer wish to keep gun, LEO sells the gun to you, THEN YOU PAY THEM at the time of your purchase from them, and you pay the 35$ for PPT.)

NO BUYING HI-CAPS FROM THE LEO.

p.s. Straw purchases are purchasing firearms on behalf of a 'restricted person', usually felon/comitted/restraining order person. By this standard I think that if the LEO DID buy strictly on your behalf, it would NOT be considered straw (since owning the firearm would NOT be illegal for you, just the commercial purchase of it), however a very.... linguistically agile DA may try to make the case that you are restricted by the roster and are therefore a restricted person. If the situation is like what I described for a LEO transferring it to you above, then Straw purchase doesn't even come into the eqaution.

leadstorm
07-22-2010, 5:48 PM
There's a Delta Elite currently for sale in Anaheim and advertised here on Calguns: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=324220

jamesonamac
07-22-2010, 8:19 PM
I know the feeling. My daughter is going away to college this Fall. She loves guns. She might even buy a gun or two that might not be on the DOJ list - her being a partial resident of another State. She might not even want one or more of the guns she buys. So being a good dad, I'll be ready to help her out if she needs to sell one of her guns - maybe to me. You have got to support your kids you know.

What a GREAT Dad! :thumbsup: