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View Full Version : We are the problem, not the NRA


Paladin
04-19-2006, 8:51 AM
I'm tired of all the gripping about the NRA doing "nothing" or not trying for major changes in Kali. These complainers seem to think that somehow, gun owners -- ones who won't even send a "One Click" email to protect our gun rts (latest example, the ability to go to a range on the way to or from work (AB 1912)) -- will suddenly get active in supporting something that will have a major impact on Kali gun rts. Well, I'm here to tell you that ain't going to happen.

How can I say that? I showed CGN members how we could have a major impact on Kali gun rts. I spent a lot of time and energy developing & posting the LA County CCW Permit Challenge and then adding the OC CCW Permit Challenge. Ken Masse would liberalize LAC CCW permit issuance for 10 million Californians and Bill Hunt would take OC to Shall Issue in practice, liberating 3 million Californians from discriminatory issue. If Ken and Bill win, the number of Kali CCW permit holders should at least double. Plus, having 1 or 2 major urban counties liberalize issuance will put pressure on other sheriffs to liberalize their issuance and will demonstrate right in California that permit holders don't get into "High Noon" duels over fender-benders. The MSM, and esp the Kali MSM (e.g., LA Times, SFChron, SacBee), would no longer be able to hide the issue, and thus more and more Kalis will hear of its success throughout the nation.

Yet what was our CGN response? Out of a total membership (at that time) of approx 4,100 members, about a half dozen stepped forward to get active in LAC and a dozen indicated by this morning that they've donated to Masse.

Twenty-five hours after I posted the LAC Challenge, the thread on "Questions on packing without a license in CA" appeared. Twenty-four hours after that, that thread had 3x the number of hits as the LAC Challenge! (It now has >4x the number of hits even though Ramon thought enough of the Challenge to make it a sticky.) CGN members are more interested in carrying illegally than they are about enabling 1/3 the state to carry legally (10 mil in LAC + 3 mil in OC).

Frankly, with all the gripping about incrementalism, I'm amazed the NRA (and GOC), don't say "Screw it. If these CA gun owners aren't willing to fight the small battles they sure won't be willing to fight a big one." I'm sure the NRA (I PM'd Mike re the LAC & OC Challenges) and the GOC (I'm in contact w/them) have watched the response to my initiatives (and the RKBA petition drive) and have seen how unfit we are for a big fight.

The critics of the NRA are like some couch potato saying, "I don't want to train everyday. Just enter me in the Boston Marathon and I'll win." What a joke.

Major Miner II
04-19-2006, 9:00 AM
Two things.

One. . .the NRA is a lobbying group. It's their *job* to get involved with these things. It's why people give them money.

Two. . .one click e-mails are actually two click e-mails. One for you sending, and one for them deleting. Or better yet, their spam filter handles it all.

I'm all for people making a difference, but don't try and assuage the role of the NRA and their obligation to their membership.

And people. . .if you want to make a difference, pick up the phone and make a 30 second phone call.

Benellishooter
04-19-2006, 9:26 AM
The NRA "leadership" is the problem.

There is no leadership. Period. What 10 goals does the NRA want to achieve in the next 5 years? (...sound of crickets chirping...) What plan do they have for California ? (...sound of crickets chirping...)

We are the foot soldiers. They are the generals. If they would do their part and develop a vision and a plan, they would have more help than they could handle.

They do not have a plan. Individuals acting alone can achieve little. Battles are won by individuals acting in unison with others. This requires leadership.

We have bad leaders.

chunger
04-19-2006, 11:05 AM
The NRA has nothing to do with the Sheriff race in LA county. They have to stay far away from that one for Ken Masse to have a chance. I'm in Norcal. I've donated money. I've contacted friends/relatives in LA county and convinced them to vote for Masse. His success will not effect me directly since I'm in Alameda county, but other people in the state will have a better chance, and we can build from there. We have collectively not even raised $1000.

Thanks everyone who have helped so far. . . especially the 2 folks who dug deep and went $100 and the LA folks who volunteered, but I had hoped the response was not so underwhelming.

knight_dive
04-19-2006, 11:59 AM
As and LAC resident, I will gladly vote for Masse, but as someone who's also struggling to pay rent and save enought at the end of the month to make car and insurance payments I have better use for my dollars than political campaigns. Frankly, the biggest reason I'll vote for Masse is that he isn't Baca.

Omega13device
04-19-2006, 12:06 PM
Getting things done in local politics is not a matter of "if you build it, they will come". It's all about blocking and tackling and a continuous, sustained effort to get to people one at a time. It's tedious and boring, and an unbelievable amount of work. Regular folks are very busy and if you want them to put anything more than a trivial amount of time or money towards a cause you have to work your butt off constantly for a long time. That's how things get changed.

chris
04-19-2006, 10:18 PM
i for one have not been in the NRA for quite some time. but i do keep up my CRPA memberships for the last 8 yrs or so. it has lapsed due my current location. but i will renew it when i get home. but i like the CRPA because they directly deal with CA issues and not just national. CA is the forefront for lawsuits of gun bills. why? there are so many anti gun laws introduced each year it is mind boggeling.

but we can go on and on about bashing the NRA and such. but if the legislators ignore our e-mails get back to the old fashioned way. LETTERS boys. I did read in the CRPA firing line about doing this when sending letters to the morons in Sacramento. use colored paper. WHY? well when they start see thousands hopefully thousands of colored letters for a bill that we do not like they cannot ignore it. It will stand out among all the white letter papers.
also call these guys too. that works also. because we can crash their phone lines in opposition to their sneaky plans of taking away our rights.

so again say what you will about the NRA but do something. join a pro second amendment group. but choose one that you like. if you are short on cash maybe the CRPA is good for you they have multi year memberships for like 50 bucks. so look around but stay involved.

we have lost so much here. we are the laughing stock of the country because of the laws. i don't blame gun owners for everything. although we share in this. but i blame the citizens of this state for the idiocy in sacramento. yes they have been duped. yet it seems year after year people arre dissatisfied with the government we have but do not vote those guys out of office. i have no idea why. we got rid of gray davis. i do hope that the next generation learns of what we have lost and helps get it back when they reach voting age.

good luck to all of us.

Paladin
05-03-2006, 12:16 AM
Two things.

One. . .the NRA is a lobbying group. It's their *job* to get involved with these things. It's why people give them money.

They are involved. Who do you think is doing the lobbying that Mike finds out about and has us support w/our One Clicks?

Two. . .one click e-mails are actually two click e-mails. One for you sending, and one for them deleting. Or better yet, their spam filter handles it all.

Let’s see now. In 1996 I did a 200 hour grad school internship w/a VA Assemblyman and EVERY call or letter received was researched when necessary and sent a reply.

As Mike Haas wrote on another thread ( http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=32368 ), “FOLLOWUP: Just spoke with a staffer in Guy Houston's office and he reinforced my understanding - that it doesn't matter what district you are in if you are providing input to a committee bill and even if you get that canned message, the email is still there to be processed. He even found my email in the list, and I got one of the above responses too (of course).”

Talkin2u2 has nearly 20 yrs of professional experience w/Sacto politics (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=241845#post241845 ) and says they’re all read (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=31378 ), even if not in their entirety. So, Major Minor II, on what do you base your assertion that legislators or their staff delete (or filter/block) unread emails from their constituents?

I'm all for people making a difference, but don't try and assuage the role of the NRA and their obligation to their membership.

The NRA is doing their job, we’re not doing ours. They can persuade an elected official, we can replace them (remember Gray Davis?). The politicians answer to us, not to the NRA’s lobbyists or hierarchy. If we don't support our lobbyists w/emails and calls when they ask for them, no one will listen to our lobbyists. Both the size and the level of political involvement of the membership is what makes the NRA a national power-player. If we Kali members do not contact our political representatives, WE are hamstringing the NRA leadership in CA.

Paladin
05-03-2006, 12:23 AM
The NRA "leadership" is the problem.

There is no leadership. Period. What 10 goals does the NRA want to achieve in the next 5 years? (...sound of crickets chirping...) What plan do they have for California ? (...sound of crickets chirping...)

We are the foot soldiers. They are the generals. If they would do their part and develop a vision and a plan, they would have more help than they could handle.

As I wrote earlier, why should they believe you when CGN members won’t get behind their incremental changes, nor the more bold LAC CCW Permit Challenge I posted? Two handfuls of donors and one handful of volunteers out of 4,100 members! And I don’t recall you posting/PMing asking how to get involved w/the LAC Challenge. Actions -- and inaction -- speaks louder than words.

They do not have a plan. Individuals acting alone can achieve little. Battles are won by individuals acting in unison with others. This requires leadership.

We have bad leaders.

If you give him your real name, I’m sure Mike Haas can find out if you are actively involved with your local MC. If he does that and says, “Yes, he’s an active member (perhaps even stepped up to be a leader?) of a MC,” then I’ll listen to you.

Paladin
05-03-2006, 12:39 AM
As and LAC resident, I will gladly vote for Masse, but as someone who's also struggling to pay rent and save enought at the end of the month to make car and insurance payments I have better use for my dollars than political campaigns.

Give time (i.e., volunteer) if you’ve got it. Email/call/tell all your family, friends and shooting buddies to volunteer and/or contribute and then vote. There’s plenty of other ideas posted on the LAC CCW Permit Challenge thread.

Paladin
05-03-2006, 12:42 AM
Getting things done in local politics is not a matter of "if you build it, they will come". It's all about blocking and tackling and a continuous, sustained effort to get to people one at a time. It's tedious and boring, and an unbelievable amount of work. Regular folks are very busy and if you want them to put anything more than a trivial amount of time or money towards a cause you have to work your butt off constantly for a long time. That's how things get changed.

Yeah, well put. And if Calguns.net members, esp those in LAC, don’t even care enough about CCW for all to chip in $20, the NRA might as well redeploy Ed and Paul in other battleground states.

When you (any reader, not Omega13device in particular) think of how much you get paid and then multiply that by the hours you spend on the web per month, just on gun sites “shooting the breeze,” you will see that it is equivalent to a lot of money. The question always is, are we willing to do what it takes? Would we be willing to take those “wasted” hours and spend them fighting for CCW for 10 million fellow Californians? The answer so far has been “No.” We’d rather moan and groan to each other about the sad state of our state or just "gab about guns," than roll up our sleeves and do what it takes to regain our 2nd A rights.

tenpercentfirearms
05-03-2006, 5:19 AM
In all honesty it never occured to me to click on the LA CCW Challange. I know getting one there is near impossible, so why would I want to apply? Second, I live in Kern County and already have one so why do I need to take some impossible challenge? That is why I didn't click on that link. Maybe the link was not appropriately named and maybe everyone who doesn't live in LA County decided it didn't effect them so they didn't even bother clicking on the link. You can't really blame us for poor marketing.

Benellishooter
05-03-2006, 5:31 AM
Paladin, you are not focusing on the problem. People don't volunteer for inept, uninspiring organizations. The NRA's leadership has done nothing to demonstrate they have a plan to take back our rights. The minute they do this, they will have volunteers.

Benellishooter
05-03-2006, 7:43 AM
I see. The NRA does have a plan. But, it is a secret flexible plan because they are afraid Sarah Brady might find out about it. I get it. Wow. The NRA leaders are brilliant.

Put down the crack pipe and think. They claim to be the organization leading (there is that word again) the fight for RKBA. Tell me their plan for victory?

You can't. They don't have one.

(Sarah Brady is not afraid to publish her plan to take our rights. As a matter of fact, the average gunowner can probably tell you much more about HCI goals than the NRAs goals.)

Paladin
05-03-2006, 8:39 AM
Maybe the link was not appropriately named and maybe everyone who doesn't live in LA County decided it didn't effect them so they didn't even bother clicking on the link. You can't really blame us for poor marketing.

Hey, I totally agree. I'm a strategic thinker, not a marketeer. That's why any good org has a variety of people who bring their differing talents to bear on a problem. I did what I'm strong at: seeing the problem/opportunity, analyzing it, developing a solution, and initiating. If you can think of a better title, PM Ramon and he might change the title to something better.

But, you know what, if someone just puts the cursor/arrow over the thread title w/o clicking it, this pops up in a preview box: "To ALL Calguns.net members, I want to challenge you today. The challenge is for us to make a major impact on Californian's ability to obtain a CHL." Note the address to "ALL Calguns.net members." If that doesn't prompt them to even click, I think they bear responsibility too.

tenpercentfirearms
05-03-2006, 8:44 AM
But, you know what, if someone just puts the cursor/arrow over the thread title w/o clicking it, this pops up in a preview box: "To ALL Calguns.net members, I want to challenge you today. The challenge is for us to make a major impact on Californian's ability to obtain a CHL." Note the address to "ALL Calguns.net members." If that doesn't prompt them to even click, I think they bear responsibility too.I didn't even go that far! Sorry.

DirtySanchez
05-03-2006, 9:13 AM
I'm tired of all the gripping about the NRA doing "nothing" or not trying for major changes in Kali. These complainers seem to think that somehow, gun owners -- ones who won't even send a "One Click" email to protect our gun rts (latest example, the ability to go to a range on the way to or from work (AB 1912)) -- will suddenly get active in supporting something that will have a major impact on Kali gun rts. Well, I'm here to tell you that ain't going to happen.

How can I say that? I showed CGN members how we could have a major impact on Kali gun rts. I spent a lot of time and energy developing & posting the LA County CCW Permit Challenge and then adding the OC CCW Permit Challenge. Ken Masse would liberalize LAC CCW permit issuance for 10 million Californians and Bill Hunt would take OC to Shall Issue in practice, liberating 3 million Californians from discriminatory issue. If Ken and Bill win, the number of Kali CCW permit holders should at least double. Plus, having 1 or 2 major urban counties liberalize issuance will put pressure on other sheriffs to liberalize their issuance and will demonstrate right in California that permit holders don't get into "High Noon" duels over fender-benders. The MSM, and esp the Kali MSM (e.g., LA Times, SFChron, SacBee), would no longer be able to hide the issue, and thus more and more Kalis will hear of its success throughout the nation.

Yet what was our CGN response? Out of a total membership (at that time) of approx 4,100 members, about a half dozen stepped forward to get active in LAC and a dozen indicated by this morning that they've donated to Masse.

Twenty-five hours after I posted the LAC Challenge, the thread on "Questions on packing without a license in CA" appeared. Twenty-four hours after that, that thread had 3x the number of hits as the LAC Challenge! (It now has >4x the number of hits even though Ramon thought enough of the Challenge to make it a sticky.) CGN members are more interested in carrying illegally than they are about enabling 1/3 the state to carry legally (10 mil in LAC + 3 mil in OC).

Frankly, with all the gripping about incrementalism, I'm amazed the NRA (and GOC), don't say "Screw it. If these CA gun owners aren't willing to fight the small battles they sure won't be willing to fight a big one." I'm sure the NRA (I PM'd Mike re the LAC & OC Challenges) and the GOC (I'm in contact w/them) have watched the response to my initiatives (and the RKBA petition drive) and have seen how unfit we are for a big fight.

The critics of the NRA are like some couch potato saying, "I don't want to train everyday. Just enter me in the Boston Marathon and I'll win." What a joke.


I am sorry people are so short sighted that they don't understand what you are telling them.

Paladin
05-03-2006, 1:51 PM
I see. The NRA does have a plan. But, it is a secret flexible plan because they are afraid Sarah Brady might find out about it. I get it. Wow. The NRA leaders are brilliant.

Put down the crack pipe and think. They claim to be the organization leading (there is that word again) the fight for RKBA. Tell me their plan for victory?

You can't. They don't have one.

There's an old saying: "Lead, follow, or get the [heck] out of the way." You aren't a leader. Your lack of response to my posting (re your activity level in your local MC) and your constant whinning about the NRA leadership show you obviously aren't much of a follower. Thus I suggest you get out of our way. Stop trying to discourage us who fit into either one or both of those categories. Your trollish criticism offers nothing constructive. All you do here is try to sap the morale of the leaders and followers who are doing something.

Jeff Rambo: Troll alert?

(Sarah Brady is not afraid to publish her plan to take our rights.

Don't confuse goals w/plans. Where has HCI posted specific plans for 2006 for CA state legislative/judicial/executive or local action?

slo5oh
05-03-2006, 2:01 PM
I'm tired of all the gripping about the NRA doing "nothing"

I read both... but I've only been in the LAC thread once, while I've been back to the illegal carry thread a several times. I don't live in LA, so as you can see, myself and 2/3 of the people here (not living there) may be hoping it happens for you, but since we still live in a communist held county it's not high on our "worry about it list".

chris
05-03-2006, 10:39 PM
guys we need to get together and not be split up. i mean the trap and skeet guys, the cowboy action shooters, hunters, bench rest shooters, and people who like to collect and shoot firearms.

and if one person who participates in the above activity thinks they will not come for their guns. don't be fooled. they are coming for them. they will get them if we don't act. we need to act now and act this november. if we don't we are screwed in ways that should be illegal. so do it for us and the future write these politicians. send them letters. there are what over 4,000 members here. if we all and i mean all sent a letter and e-mail to them they would freak out. so do it.

tenpercentfirearms
05-04-2006, 5:47 AM
there are what over 4,000 members here. if we all and i mean all sent a letter and e-mail to them they would freak out. so do it.I don't think representatives from other districts are going to give a damn what I have to say considering I don't vote for them. Also considering that roughly 13 million people voted in the statewide elections in 2004, we are only .03% of those voters. Oh man the liberals are going to listen for sure! :rolleyes:

When California elected Gray Davis over Bill Simon in 2002, I lost all hope for this state. However, you can make a difference if you try hard enough so people of LA County go for it. Just don't be too shocked when those who don't live there aren't that excited to help as there is a reason we don't live there. We might prioritize our efforts on other campaigns and other issues that impact our lives more. You might not like it, but that is the basis of our entire society. Motivation and incentives. I don't expect people in Alaska to spend money on our campaigns, why should we expect other Californians to help out Los Angeles when those elections do not effect us? And sorry, you can try and rationalize it, but Kern County is simply not going to change because of LA County. Our entire persona is based off of being the antithesis of LA County.