PDA

View Full Version : AR rifles and hunting.


bigboarstopper
07-20-2010, 4:35 PM
The guy who asked about 10 round magazines partly got his thread jacked and the topic turned to the image of the AR used as a hunting rifle. Im reposting my responce in hopes that this topic gets a better understanding from those who have input.

Heres what I wrote on the topic.
I own an AR rifle. The only time I used it to kill animals was ground squirrls. It was nice not to have to reload constantly and there were plenty of oppertunities to shoot one after the other. While I guess this is considered hunting, I considered it killing. Im pretty sure the hunting and non hunting public would probabally agree with me in this circumstance.

An AR can give the impression that a person is "killing". An AR by design is made to shoot its target or targets in volume. While this is handy for ground squirrls and insurgents it dosent represent what the adverage hunter needs. In many mindsets the Ar used in hunting represents the same impression as a pick up truck with a lift kit so big that the driver needs a latter to get in the cab. Its just unnecessary and overkill.

Im sure there are plenty of people who are so proficient with their Ar rifles that using it for hunting is probabally their best bet for an accurate shot and humane kill. However people who enjoy the act of hunting over shooting will almost always choose the most logical, practical, tool that represents the kind of hunt they want and represent. Thats usually and has always been the hunting rifle, bow ect. These tools represent the person who has the one shot kill philosophy. The AR does not represent these things.

spectr17
07-20-2010, 4:47 PM
I dunno, I hunt with a former army Ranger in Missouri who had his hands blown off and he has 2 hooks now. He likes to hunt with an SKS because it's what he carried in Nam and he's deadly with it from watching him drop deer out to 150 yards.

To each his own as they say.

Big Jake
07-20-2010, 4:55 PM
While I understand the rational that some have for hunting with an AR I personally choose not to. I have a mini-14 that has better range and is more accurate then an AR, which was not designed for that purpose. Both are semi-auto and I much prefer the latter for hunting, however, to each his/her own!

toby
07-20-2010, 5:24 PM
True to each his own, as long as the guy or gal using such a rifle as the AR is using the proper caliber per game being sought I have no problem with it. One thing I will say is that it doe's look odd or even strange to see someone hunting with an AR. I am contemplating the use of one for coyotes and P dogs but it will be set up as such long barrel and a real buttstock not a skeleton or adjustable type?

Big Jake
07-20-2010, 5:28 PM
Ultimately as long as the hunter is legally hunting then that is all that matters!

ZX-10R
07-20-2010, 5:28 PM
I have an AR and am planning a pig hunting trip...The AR will not be going with me. I want to make sure the thing goes down from 150+ yrds out...At that range I am safe to know my PSL 7.62x54 will do the job. If I were hunting something smaller and less bulkier, then I could see my AR being the choice weapon.

thevic
07-20-2010, 5:30 PM
i use my noveske for and thing that moves. and hogs..never attempted with a deer, but i suppose a round to the spine would drop the sucker

Big Jake
07-20-2010, 5:32 PM
I have an AR and am planning a pig hunting trip...The AR will not be going with me. I want to make sure the thing goes down from 150+ yrds out...At that range I am safe to know my PSL 7.62x54 will do the job. If I were hunting something smaller and less bulkier, then I could see my AR being the choice weapon.

Also true. I would not choose to hunt with a gun that cannot shoot accuratley at 150+ yards, which an AR was not designed to do. It is a close quarter combat weapon!

Baxter
07-20-2010, 5:36 PM
Wow. Maybe we should just use wooden spears and rocks.

Big Jake
07-20-2010, 5:38 PM
Wow. Maybe we should just use wooden spears and rocks.

Are they legal in California? :eek:

TonyMang_89
07-20-2010, 5:54 PM
my AR shoots plenty accurate at 200 and thats open sights

minute of soda can should be good enough for hunting

Cougar125
07-20-2010, 6:19 PM
Are they legal in California? :eek:

Only with the proper permits and taxes paid. :eek:

speedgoat
07-20-2010, 6:32 PM
I'm new to the AR world, but not to hunting. I've been hunting with bolt-guns for years. But one of the attractions of the AR platform to me is the the ability to easily swap out different components to suit different situations and needs.

I think that a varminter style AR-15 would make a nice varmint/predator rifle. I think that a shorter barrelled "thumper" style would make a nice brush gun for the thick stuff. You also have the AR-10 in .308 (or similar sized cartridge) that can be used for larger game at longer ranges. I can also use the same rifle to compete with if I decide I ever want to get into that. I love the versatility.

Certainly, you don't need/want a plethora of tactical doodads or hi-cap mags on a hunting rifle, but I think the platform itself is very useful and appropriate.

lewdogg21
07-20-2010, 6:41 PM
I recently completed my first AR build and it's also my first .223 rifle. I have no qualms hunting coyotes/squirrels/vermin with it.

I might even build a 6.5 or 6.8 (deer sized game caliber) with my next build. For big game a 5 round mag is enough but it wouldn't stick out of the mag well.

EBR's are sweeping the world.

Baxter
07-20-2010, 9:24 PM
My 450 bushmaster is very accurate out to 250 yrds. With a 250grn bullet it is also very deadly. I have only taken a deer with so far and it was dead before it hit the ground.
Also I really don't give damn if my gun makes people think I am "killing" an animal because that is what I am doing.
But like others have stated, to each his own.

CHAD PEZZLE
07-21-2010, 7:09 AM
Most AR's you see might not be ideal for hunting, but if the choice is me sitting at home on my butt or taking the AR for a nature walk. I'll choose my AR all day long.

Hunters are loosing land and seeing stiffer regulations as we speak; if we divide or bicker amongst ourselves we become weaker. Just because you choose to hunt with a bolt gun doesn't mean what everyone else is doing is wrong. We should encourage any new hunter as much as possible whether they're hunting with an AR, Bolt Gun, or Bow 'n Arrow. As long as they're are doing so in a legal and ethical manner.

professionalcoyotehunter
07-21-2010, 7:27 AM
I use AR's on coyotes and they are deadly on them.

Purple K
07-21-2010, 7:49 AM
My AR's are in 5.56, 6.8spc and .450 Bushmaster, different calibers for different game. My bolt guns are in .22lr, 22-250, 7mm mag and .338 mag, different calibers for different game. I actually prefer to hunt with the AR's due to their semi-recoilless design being easier on my shoulder and for the ability for a quick second shot. A good quality AR in the hands of a proficient shooter is plenty accurate out to 250-300 yards.

mif_slim
07-21-2010, 8:34 AM
Also true. I would not choose to hunt with a gun that cannot shoot accuratley at 150+ yards, which an AR was not designed to do. It is a close quarter combat weapon!

Uh, my ar actually shoots like this (200 yards, sorry my pen started to blob on me):
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a105/mif_slim/100_3929.jpg

if thats not accurate for you then you have too high standards.


As for hunting with an AR, I've hunted with an AR for 3 years now. Of the two I've gotten two deers with. One a neck shot which droped where it was at and one shot thru both shoulder blades with it expiring 30 yards away. Both deer were 3+ year old and with Wolf 55gr HP. If thats not clean enough then I dont know what hunters are looking for when they speak of ethic kills. I have plenty of successful hunts with .223 (my previous years were with a SU-16 with same results).

So I dont have a problem with a AR being used for hunting, only people that does have issues is because they dont want to let go of the old ways yet. I mean, if bolt actions are okay to hunt with then why is it not for AR? I mean in WWI and II all they used to "kill" each other was bolt actions, which wasnt designed for hunting, but for killing too, but that was their time and era.

speedgoat
07-21-2010, 8:40 AM
There is a long, established history of military arms being adopted by the general public and used for sporting purposes. The AR is just the latest incarnation of this.

Semi-automatic rifles and shotguns have also been used for numerous decades by hunters. I really don't see anything strange about using an AR to take game.

Vtec44
07-21-2010, 10:07 AM
Semi-automatic rifles and shotguns have also been used for numerous decades by hunters. I really don't see anything strange about using an AR to take game.

It's strange because the media has vilified it as a weapon of war, and its purpose is to kill people. It has no place in hunting so it's okay to ban it because 2A is about hunting.

I have AR's in 5.56 and building a 6.8 version right now. I try to take my AR out hunting as much as possible for the purpose of changing people's perception.

speedgoat
07-21-2010, 10:20 AM
It's strange because the media has vilified it as a weapon of war, and its purpose is to kill people. It has no place in hunting so it's okay to ban it because 2A is about hunting.

I have AR's in 5.56 and building a 6.8 version right now. I try to take my AR out hunting as much as possible for the purpose of changing people's perception.

I understand what you're saying. The way the AR has been portrayed in the media is based on either ignorant PR bull**** or an organized agenda. Either way I strongly disagree with it.

An AR is black and it looks "mean", especially if it's equipped with tactical rails and such, but that's really all that separates it from "sporterized" versions of military weapons that have been used for decades.

My guess is that the people that are "offended" by the use of such a rifle for hunting probably aren't hunters in the first place and are most likely opposed to a person's right to do so.

Vtec44
07-21-2010, 11:23 AM
My guess is that the people that are "offended" by the use of such a rifle for hunting probably aren't hunters in the first place and are most likely opposed to a person's right to do so.

I also think that a few hunters are avoiding the AR platform in general because of political correctness.

speedgoat
07-21-2010, 12:03 PM
I also think that a few hunters are avoiding the AR platform in general because of political correctness.

No doubt. They are doing so at their own loss, IMHO.

Big Jake
07-21-2010, 1:01 PM
I also think that a few hunters are avoiding the AR platform in general because of political correctness.

Not in my case. I just don't like AR for hunting! :rolleyes:

speedgoat
07-21-2010, 1:12 PM
Not in my case. I just don't like AR for hunting! :rolleyes:

That's how it should be. Hunt with what makes you happy, not with what makes others happy.

Big Jake
07-21-2010, 1:35 PM
That's how it should be. Hunt with what makes you happy, not with what makes others happy.

I agree! :)

toby
07-21-2010, 2:40 PM
Well so far this has been an enjoyable friendly thread....I like it that way....:jump:

Big Jake
07-21-2010, 2:48 PM
Well so far this has been an enjoyable friendly thread....I like it that way....:jump:

:grouphug::wub:

Rusty_Buckhorn
07-21-2010, 3:00 PM
It's strange because the media has vilified it as a weapon of war, and its purpose is to kill people. It has no place in hunting so it's okay to ban it because 2A is about hunting.


But, the 2A isn't about hunting. It's about protecting yourself and your rights against the govt. To defend yourself, you should be well armed, with the best tool for the job...... which isn't a hunting rifle. In all reality, it should be easier to ban hunting rifles than assault weapons, since only 1 of the 2 is designed for protection, and the other is designed for sport.

With that said, home defense guns stay home, hunting rifles go hunting.... or at least that's how I roll :cool:

Big Jake
07-21-2010, 3:25 PM
But, the 2A isn't about hunting. It's about protecting yourself and your rights against the govt. To defend yourself, you should be well armed, with the best tool for the job...... which isn't a hunting rifle. In all reality, it should be easier to ban hunting rifles than assault weapons, since only 1 of the 2 is designed for protection, and the other is designed for sport.

With that said, home defense guns stay home, hunting rifles go hunting.... or at least that's how I roll :cool:

Excellent point!

ZX-10R
07-21-2010, 3:52 PM
Now if I had an M700 in .308 that would be my choice gun...My PSL though can cross into that realm. My AR is a favorite of mine...Probably a close third to my PSL, then my WASR...The part that makes me like those guns more is that my AR shoots so damn accurate. Not that that is something I dislike...No I like that but at the range it does get boring. I have my parts coming for my WASR build...Then I can compare both builds and see which will be my home defense...I am going to make the parts interchangeable.

taperxz
07-21-2010, 4:14 PM
I use AR's on coyotes and they are deadly on them.

+1^^^

Forget the fact that it is an AR!! You are shooting a firearm that expends a 223 round! This would not be my first or even second choice for deer. I also would not waste a bunch of 223 rounds on ground squirrels. .22, 17 hmr, or 204 would be the preferred round in my book for those little guys.

The 223 would be ideal for yotes!! Not pigs!!

The AR was made to be comfortable and accurate. It is by far more superior than the mini 14 and is an absolute gas to shoot for yotes. JMO

Vtec44
07-21-2010, 7:23 PM
With that said, home defense guns stay home, hunting rifles go hunting.... or at least that's how I roll :cool:

My home defense is also my hunting rifle, M4gery.

Just kidding, my hunting rifle is a 16" barrel AR in 5.56. The 6.8 will be for deer since they're smaller in CA. :D

speedgoat
07-21-2010, 8:01 PM
My home defense is also my hunting rifle

My 870 sorta does double duty. :D

remington
07-21-2010, 10:36 PM
The AR platfrom is the platform of the future. This is made evident by Remington, the largest most successful rifle maker in history has embraced it with the R-25 series. The .223 is only one option. If you goto the DPM website, you will also see true hunting calibers being offered. In short, you can make or get them in .204, .243, .7mm-08, .260 .30 remignton, .338 federal and of course the .308. If you hunt deer or smaller, the .243, 7mm8, .260 are excellent calibers. Especially for our thin skinned stuff here. In short, as long a hunter uses a appropiate caliber for the task, a gun is gun. The AR is virtually un-deterred by any weather conditions, they always go bang, quick follow up shots and a well built AR in any caliber is as accurate as any hunting rifle. They are light, point well, parts are cheap and they look cool! My only issue in this state is the DFG and LEO's who are not familiar with the law. I have a M4 type for fun and a RRA Varmint for fun with fur. My next build will be 7mm-08 or .260 and I will hunt with it. Remington made the 7400 for years, whats the difference? Ruger made the .44 Carbines, Benelli is now in the semi auto sporting rifle game and those are the few I know. Howe many military rifles have use for hunting..Mausers, 03A3's, Enfields, Krag's and so on. Its the AR's turn.

I used to be very anti AR for hunting, but I have beenmade believer. Ironically, my favorite rifle to hunt with is my .270, Ruger No. 1. Opposites arent they!

R

duckman1
07-22-2010, 7:00 AM
Rocks and spears are not a legal method of take.

I get really nervous when I see those guys with those bows......

problemchild
07-22-2010, 8:02 AM
Most hunting rifles I have seen being sited in at Burro shot HORRIBLE groups (6"+) and would at best wound an animal. The people shooting them fancied themselves big game hunters and were impressed with that 6" group. I think inaccurate hunting rifles should be banned and only allow ar15 ar-10 rifles for hunting. Most ar shooters shoot more ammo, know their rifle better and can shoot better then the wanna be weekend hunters with their dusty bolt guns. Sorry but I disagree.

A prime example with a "HUNTING" rifle. Hear the bolt being cocked? Looks like he is trying to spray bullets and "kill" the animal. OMG!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiq8uVMTaBY

Bring that Big 5 huntin rifle to the range next weekend. I'm your Hucklebearer.......

http://www.michaelkdickson.com/webjunk/LMT/3shot.jpg

Shot with an ar-10 style rifle 3 shot group at 100.

Paradiddle
07-22-2010, 8:15 AM
I also think that a few hunters are avoiding the AR platform in general because of political correctness.

I don't know about this anymore. I've seen no less the 4 articles in the last couple of issues of either Field and Stream or Outdoor World about hunting with the AR platform. Remington was genious in offering a non-black AR set up for hunting.

If the AR had wood on it the public wouldn't even know it was an AR. Like someone else said, military arms have a LONG history of being used as hunting rifles. The difference now is our military arm has black plastic on it.

If I had an AR in a heavy caliber I wouldn't hesitate to hunt big game with it. As it sits now a .223 AR makes a fantastic varmint platform. They are handy, they point quick (if you don't bugger it up with lights and lasers and other stupid stuff), they run nearly all the time, the recoil is easy to deal with, and they are VERY accurate. Anyone who doesn't think the AR is accurate needs to shoot a High Power match. You can get an AR darn close to bolt gun accuracy - it is IMO the most accurate military arm perhaps since the 1903 Springfield, and it is far less picky to get that accuracy when compared to the M14/Garand platform.

speedgoat
07-22-2010, 8:17 AM
The AR platfrom is the platform of the future. This is made evident by Remington, the largest most successful rifle maker in history has embraced it with the R-25 series. The .223 is only one option. If you goto the DPM website, you will also see true hunting calibers being offered. In short, you can make or get them in .204, .243, .7mm-08, .260 .30 remignton, .338 federal and of course the .308. If you hunt deer or smaller, the .243, 7mm8, .260 are excellent calibers. Especially for our thin skinned stuff here. In short, as long a hunter uses a appropiate caliber for the task, a gun is gun. The AR is virtually un-deterred by any weather conditions, they always go bang, quick follow up shots and a well built AR in any caliber is as accurate as any hunting rifle. They are light, point well, parts are cheap and they look cool! My only issue in this state is the DFG and LEO's who are not familiar with the law. I have a M4 type for fun and a RRA Varmint for fun with fur. My next build will be 7mm-08 or .260 and I will hunt with it. Remington made the 7400 for years, whats the difference? Ruger made the .44 Carbines, Benelli is now in the semi auto sporting rifle game and those are the few I know. Howe many military rifles have use for hunting..Mausers, 03A3's, Enfields, Krag's and so on. Its the AR's turn.

I used to be very anti AR for hunting, but I have beenmade believer. Ironically, my favorite rifle to hunt with is my .270, Ruger No. 1. Opposites arent they!

R

You and I are on the same page here.

I think an AR-10 in .350 Remington Magnum would be awesome. Don't know if it's possible, but it's the same length as a .308.

200 grain .358 caliber bullets at 2700 fps and 3237 ft/lbs of energy would be a great hunting round. That's pretty much identical to a .30-'06.

ScottB
07-22-2010, 8:40 AM
.308-length cartridges and its derivatives are pretty much where the "ideal platform of the future" tops out. .30-06 is the point of departure for most big game rifles. .308 is OK for deer and average hogs, but on the anemic side of a .30-06. The short mags seem to have had their 15 minutes and the marketing machine has moved on. How would the AR handle powerful rounds such as the .300 or .338 winmag or the even longer ultramags, Weatherby and H&H magnums and their derivatives? Or even hot loaded .308s? Can the AR really handle the same pressures or cartidge lengths a good bolt action will? Remember, with the variety of bullets available for hunting cartridge OAL can vary significantly. Also, a lot of foreign countries restrict the use of military rifles and calibers for hunting - including Canada and Mexico.

speedgoat
07-22-2010, 9:01 AM
.308-length cartridges and its derivatives are pretty much where the "ideal platform of the future" tops out. . . How would the AR handle powerful rounds such as the .300 or .338 winmag or the even longer ultramags, Weatherby and H&H magnums and their derivatives? Or even hot loaded .308s? Can the AR really handle the same pressures or cartidge lengths a good bolt action will?

That's what I'm curious about. How strong is the AR action, and how far can you push it pressure-wise? I think bolt-guns are superior in that department but I guess I'm not familiar enough yet with the AR's to know for sure. I know Barret makes a semi-auto .50 BMG, but that's a big, heavy gun; what are the upper pressure limits of the AR actions?

Seems like the WSM cartridges would be ideally suited for the shorter OAL length required for the AR-15/AR-10's, assuming they could handle the pressures. Not sure if you would run into feeding problems or not with them in a detachable magazine fed rifle?

Paradiddle
07-22-2010, 10:17 AM
.308-length cartridges and its derivatives are pretty much where the "ideal platform of the future" tops out. .30-06 is the point of departure for most big game rifles. .308 is OK for deer and average hogs, but on the anemic side of a .30-06. The short mags seem to have had their 15 minutes and the marketing machine has moved on. How would the AR handle powerful rounds such as the .300 or .338 winmag or the even longer ultramags, Weatherby and H&H magnums and their derivatives? Or even hot loaded .308s? Can the AR really handle the same pressures or cartidge lengths a good bolt action will? Remember, with the variety of bullets available for hunting cartridge OAL can vary significantly. Also, a lot of foreign countries restrict the use of military rifles and calibers for hunting - including Canada and Mexico.

The AR platform can handle the .458 Socom. That would be more then enough for most game.

Here is, what I consider, to be one of the best threads on the internet - all about hog control and what works from a guy who does it every day.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=449721

ScottB
07-22-2010, 10:56 AM
.458 socom looks like a short range round. Looks similar to .45-70 under 150 yards and inferior to a .308 after that. What about those hogs out around 200 yards and beyond? You might get close. Often you can't. Start talking about elk and even deer, and pretty soon you're holding over the fur.

I have a modern .45-70 and flatter shooting, more powerful big game rifles beyond that. What does a .458 socom bring to the table except rationalizing the AR platform and adding another obscure cartridge to the inventory that is expensive and hard to find?

speedgoat
07-22-2010, 11:47 AM
Did a little digging and found this interesting article about shooting .300 SAUM in an AR-10 platform. Sounds like it works very well. The .300 SAUM is almost identical, ballistically, to the .300 WSM.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/longgun_reviews/ST_ar10ultra_062309/index.html

Shooting a .300 Win Mag equivalent round from an AR platform would work well for hunting anything in North America.

Paradiddle
07-22-2010, 3:17 PM
.458 socom looks like a short range round. Looks similar to .45-70 under 150 yards and inferior to a .308 after that. What about those hogs out around 200 yards and beyond? You might get close. Often you can't. Start talking about elk and even deer, and pretty soon you're holding over the fur.

I have a modern .45-70 and flatter shooting, more powerful big game rifles beyond that. What does a .458 socom bring to the table except rationalizing the AR platform and adding another obscure cartridge to the inventory that is expensive and hard to find?

You mentioned the lack of a "heavy hitter" for the AR platform so I brought up that there is the 45-70 equivalent round. I also don't see why .308 isn't enough for hogs way out. It's not the caliber most of the time - it's shot placement.

Note that guy from Texas - he was using a .308 bolt gun until he got his .458. Frankly anything you'd hunt in North America save big bears and big moose could be taken with a .308. It's not that ballistically inferior to 30-06.

I just find it interesting that 50 years ago EVERYTHING was shot with a 30/30 lever gun and now we can't shoot it with a .308 AR - essentially the same gun (handy, light, reliable, repeater, intermediate cartridge).

If you go to Africa or Alaska you need a bigger gun - I agree. Although on THR there is a thread from an Alaska professional caribou hunter that swears by his Mosin in 7.62x54 for everything - including big *** bears. That's 30-06/.308 level power. Again – these are people with real life experience – who rely on their rifles to save their lives and provide them with a living. We are casual hunters at best – and if you are a Cali native you are probably an “occasional” hunter because of our geography.

speedgoat
07-22-2010, 3:34 PM
Frankly anything you'd hunt in North America save big bears and big moose could be taken with a .308.

A good friend lived and worked in Alaska for a few years. He would go out with the local Inuits on their meat hunts, which was a principal source of food for them. They routinely killed moose with .223's. One shot behind the ear and done, usually taken at close range.

ScottB
07-22-2010, 4:11 PM
The standard loaded .45-70 is not that powerful because of the prevalance of old rifles chambered for the round. Look at the Corbon or Garrett loads for a hunting comparison. The standard loads are plinkers, the hunting loads pack a wallop.You really cant equate two rounds of equal diameter where one has a case holds significantly more powder than the other.

Look, if you want to go tie yourself in knots and build a rifle for an obscure (IMO marginal) caliber for hunting to justify using an AR, knock yourself out. It just doesn't seem worth the cost or effort to me. The 7.62 x 54 may be in the same class as a .308 or .30-06, but the round is too long for the AR platform. There are lots marginal calibers that so and so used to take a zillion yetis 50 years ago and some guys do go in over gunned. That doesn't mean being under gunned is a good idea. What I do not understand is the need to rationalize tactical, military equipment for a fundamentally different purpose when that purpose already has highly developed and superior solutions to any issue you can raise.

You keep citing all these keyboard commandos. Experience is the best teacher. Go out there and book some guided hunts with some pros and see what they use and recommened you use (cause they want you to be successful) look at what any other guys in camp use. Talk with some SCI guys (or RMEF or CalDeer or whatever other group composed of hunters who are out there year after year) and ask what they use.

You are too theoretical. Theory is BS in the field and everyone I know (me included) have way too much time and money riding on our precious elk tags or even a $500 hog hunt to rely on something that should work most of the time if you have great shot placement. Many times you are not presented with ideal shots or, for whatever reason, it doesn't go where you want it to. You want to kill the animal instantly or at least anchor it so you can finish the job quickly and humanely. That is a moral obligation. You need enough gun to provide a margin of safety for less than ideal circumstances. Those should be the principles that dictate the round (and consequnetly the rifle) that you select.

Paradiddle
07-22-2010, 4:47 PM
The standard loaded .45-70 is not that powerful because of the prevalance of old rifles chambered for the round. Look at the Corbon or Garrett loads for a hunting comparison. The standard loads are plinkers, the hunting loads pack a wallop.You really cant equate two rounds of equal diameter where one has a case holds significantly more powder than the other.

Look, if you want to go tie yourself in knots and build a rifle for an obscure (IMO marginal) caliber for hunting to justify using an AR, knock yourself out. It just doesn't seem worth the cost or effort to me. The 7.62 x 54 may be in the same class as a .308 or .30-06, but the round is too long for the AR platform. There are lots marginal calibers that so and so used to take a zillion yetis 50 years ago and some guys do go in over gunned. That doesn't mean being under gunned is a good idea. What I do not understand is the need to rationalize tactical, military equipment for a fundamentally different purpose when that purpose already has highly developed and superior solutions to any issue you can raise.

You keep citing all these keyboard commandos. Experience is the best teacher. Go out there and book some guided hunts with some pros and see what they use and recommened you use (cause they want you to be successful) look at what any other guys in camp use. Talk with some SCI guys (or RMEF or CalDeer or whatever other group composed of hunters who are out there year after year) and ask what they use.

You are too theoretical. Theory is BS in the field and everyone I know (me included) have way too much time and money riding on our precious elk tags or even a $500 hog hunt to rely on something that should work most of the time if you have great shot placement. Many times you are not presented with ideal shots or, for whatever reason, it doesn't go where you want it to. You want to kill the animal instantly or at least anchor it so you can finish the job quickly and humanely. That is a moral obligation. You need enough gun to provide a margin of safety for less than ideal circumstances. Those should be the principles that dictate the round (and consequnetly the rifle) that you select.

If you are talking to me - you are not reading what I'm writing. It's clear by your comment of the 7.62 x 54 and the AR platform - at no time did I say that cartridge should be in the AR platform.

Go back and read. Read the other link(s) I reference (with photos). The links I listed are not "keyboard commandos" but guys with more experience then most people on calguns - hell one of them is a professional hunter.

I'm not saying the AR platform is the be all end all - you are misunderstanding me. But I am saying it is a viable platform for animals within its calibers.

I do not agree with you that .308 is marginal on hogs and "adequate for deer" - seriously you can kill a deer with a .243 all day long. Would I shoot a moose or a big bear with a .22 or a .223 or even a .308 - no. Would I advocate that – no. Would I use an AR on dangerous game – no (except for man).

I hunt with a bolt action. I would not pay thousands of dollars to travel to another state and use a caliber that is marginal – that is just dumb.

I agree that professional guides and hunters know best - that is why I talked with a couple I know prior to making my rifle selection.

All I'm saying is you made some pretty broad, and IMO incorrect statements about the AR platform and specifically the .308 round. I was just stating some alternative information.

speedgoat
07-22-2010, 5:02 PM
The standard loaded .45-70 is not that powerful because of the prevalance of old rifles chambered for the round. Look at the Corbon or Garrett loads for a hunting comparison. The standard loads are plinkers, the hunting loads pack a wallop.You really cant equate two rounds of equal diameter where one has a case holds significantly more powder than the other.

Look, if you want to go tie yourself in knots and build a rifle for an obscure (IMO marginal) caliber for hunting to justify using an AR, knock yourself out. It just doesn't seem worth the cost or effort to me. The 7.62 x 54 may be in the same class as a .308 or .30-06, but the round is too long for the AR platform. There are lots marginal calibers that so and so used to take a zillion yetis 50 years ago and some guys do go in over gunned. That doesn't mean being under gunned is a good idea. What I do not understand is the need to rationalize tactical, military equipment for a fundamentally different purpose when that purpose already has highly developed and superior solutions to any issue you can raise.

You keep citing all these keyboard commandos. Experience is the best teacher. Go out there and book some guided hunts with some pros and see what they use and recommened you use (cause they want you to be successful) look at what any other guys in camp use. Talk with some SCI guys (or RMEF or CalDeer or whatever other group composed of hunters who are out there year after year) and ask what they use.

You are too theoretical. Theory is BS in the field and everyone I know (me included) have way too much time and money riding on our precious elk tags or even a $500 hog hunt to rely on something that should work most of the time if you have great shot placement. Many times you are not presented with ideal shots or, for whatever reason, it doesn't go where you want it to. You want to kill the animal instantly or at least anchor it so you can finish the job quickly and humanely. That is a moral obligation. You need enough gun to provide a margin of safety for less than ideal circumstances. Those should be the principles that dictate the round (and consequnetly the rifle) that you select.

So what's wrong with big-game hunting with a .300 SAUM? That is an appropriate cartridge for just about anything that walks North America.

The original point I was trying to make is that the AR platform is versatile and appropriate and can be easily configured to a variety of different situations. What other current hunting rifle platforms allow you to easily switch out barrels (uppers) to change calibers? The Thomspon Center Encore and Contender rifles are the only ones that come to my mind, and those are single-shots.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the utility of an AR for hunting. I've done all my hunting over the years with bolt-guns. I've taken numerous white-tail, mule-deer, antelope, and elk over the years - all on unguided hunts on public land - so I'm not some arm-chair wannabe here. I've been a dyed-in-the-wool bolt-gun guy from day one, but the accuracy and versatility of the AR has gotten my attention lately as something that can be very useful.

I'm not suggesting you don your best "mall-ninja, black-rifle-guy" attire and go run around the woods with your tactical EBR. I'm saying that, properly configured, there is value in the AR platform for a hunting application.

bigboarstopper
07-22-2010, 5:18 PM
Getting off course here. Remember the topic is AR. Assault rifles. Rifles specifically made for combat. I know that historically ex military weapons have been used for hunting. The older military rifles that grandpa used to hunt deer looked closer to todays regular bolt action hunting rifle than the modern AR. You ever see grandpa use his tommy gun from WWII to hunt? You ever see him use his BAR? No. He would have been teased to death by his fellow hunters.

The truth of the matter is that AR's are cool. They are complex compared to ye ole bolt action wooden gun. They are compared to race cars and other finely tuned pieces of machinery. They can be customized more than any other weapon on the market. They have intimidation and sex appeal. Its the ferrari of guns.

Have you ever been to the range? Ever notice the loudest guy boasting about whatever is usually shooting an AR. After that he pulls out his desert eagle 50 and blasts away his kids college money.

I personally dont know anyone in here that I know has an AR rifle so im not pointing anybody out personally. But I must say whats on my mind about the AR. The AR rifle is the most attractive and sought after gun by people who are either stupid or have the small penis complex.

Like I said before I own a AR rifle. I know many people who do. Most of them are normal folks. But when it comes to idiots, people with complexes and morons who own guns, its always about the AR. The talk is always about shooting 30 round mags from the hip and blasting crap away. They all want or own desert eagles that make the big boom and recite "this is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine!" at the range. Im sure most and hopefully all of you dont fit into this category. But you have to admit, the majority of posers, wantabes, morons, thugs, short man syndrome having, picked on as a kid gun owning people people all have AR weapons! They feel empowered, respected, feared and cocky. I remember once seeing a guy at the range walk completely differently when he was holding his gun. He would stick out his chest like Foghorn Leghorn and walk on his toes so he looked taller. Once the gun was put away he would slouch and shuffle his feet like he normally walked.

I guess in a way im saying that Im prejudice or stereotyping. Even though I own a AR weapon. If I was to come across a person hunting in the woods with an AR weapon I would bet a significant percentage that that person was one of those people I just described.

Let the flogging begin

toby
07-22-2010, 5:25 PM
Crap so much for my last reply ....pop corn anyone?

ScottB
07-22-2010, 5:25 PM
I'm not suggesting you don your best "mall-ninja, black-rifle-guy" attire and go run around the woods with your tactical EBR. I'm saying that, properly configured, there is value in the AR platform for a hunting application.

I know nothing about the .300 saum, but I'll stipulate to the quote above. And I maintain that the paramilitary look harms hunting's image - one that only recently has been rehabilitated. I lived much of my life when "hunter" was regarded in polite circles as a synonym for "murderer" or "serial killer". I don't want to go back there.

There is just so much energy behind all things tacticool on this site, I think the adage of "use the best tool for the job" gets morphed into "use the tool you like the best for all jobs." Sometimes the best camo is no camo (figuratively speaking). Roll into the background and blend in. Don't be the tourist who looks cool at home in Peoria but in the same getup looks like a dork in Bali. Be the chameleon.

Rob454
07-22-2010, 5:56 PM
I personally dont care if you want to use a AR for hunting as much as some others. i do care if you use too small a caliber for the game you are hunting. and yes i think a 223 is too small for deer. To all you guys who can drop a deer with a 223 while I understand that, I believe lots of people cannot do that and end up maiming the deer rather than killing it.
other than looking a little weird hunting with a AR i personally dont care. You will get strange looks though.

speedgoat
07-22-2010, 6:41 PM
I know nothing about the .300 saum, but I'll stipulate to the quote above.

.300 SAUM - Almost identical ballistics to the .300 WSM:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_Remington_SA_Ultra_Mag

Here are some "black rifles" that look a little more innocuous. Same AR rifle platform, different color:

http://www.remington.com/product-families/firearms/centerfire-families/autoloading-model-r-15.aspx

And I maintain that the paramilitary look harms hunting's image - one that only recently has been rehabilitated. I lived much of my life when "hunter" was regarded in polite circles as a synonym for "murderer" or "serial killer".

I'm guessing you've spent most if not all of your life living in SoCal or another similar location with similar "sensibilities". Not trying to bust your balls here. I grew up in OC and lived there for almost 30 years. Nobody I knew during that time hunted or had any empathy for the sport.

It took me moving to CO to see that the points of view "Californians" have toward many issues are not shared by most people across the country. Almost every single one of my friends in CO, many of whom were from other parts of the country originally, hunted and it was widely accepted as a conventional practice. Eating wild game at dinner parties with friends was not at all uncommon. Never once did I get hassled or ridiculed by "anti-hunters", either in the field or at cocktail parties, as has often happened living here in SoCal. Sure, I ran into people that didn't support hunting, but we politely respected each other's opinions.

Spend a few years living outside this state and see just how much hunting is "hated" by people. You might be surprised at what you find.

djm315
07-22-2010, 8:33 PM
.
Have you ever been to the range? Ever notice the loudest guy boasting about whatever is usually shooting an AR. After that he pulls out his desert eagle 50 and blasts away his kids college money.

I personally dont know anyone in here that I know has an AR rifle so im not pointing anybody out personally. But I must say whats on my mind about the AR. The AR rifle is the most attractive and sought after gun by people who are either stupid or have the small penis complex.

Like I said before I own a AR rifle. I know many people who do. Most of them are normal folks. But when it comes to idiots, people with complexes and morons who own guns, its always about the AR. If I was to come across a person hunting in the woods with an AR weapon I would bet a significant percentage that that person was one of those people I just described.

Let the flogging begin
well which is it? are they normal folks or small penised idiots?
i have seen plenty of morons with "hunting only" type rifles and AR type rifles
only to be amazed that someone actualy sold them a weapon,
my point , morons are everywhere,the gun dosent make the moron.

remington
07-22-2010, 8:59 PM
Bigboar has his opinion and thats allowed. Yup, I have an AR. I also got a few others rifles, savage bolts, remy's of course, Ruger bolts, winchester bolt, a butt kicking No.1, a few savage 99's and on so on. AR is just another platform. Now, you wont find me out there with a railed AR with light, laser, Eotech and a 30 round (10 cap) mag. Thats not what I am referring to. The R-25 is, in my humble opinion, the single largest step to mainstream sporting guns the AR has EVER made. It is the the ONLY significant "bridge" from evil black rifle status to hunting sporting rifle. No sights, Max1 is the same as many others are offering...albiet with bolts. My point is simply this: SW came out with a good evil black rifle, ruger upped the ante and makes a great one. Remington, with all it marketing savvy and resources is the only company ever to attempt to bridge the two. I am going Pronghorn and Muley hunting this season in Utah. My No 1 in .270 or my BDL in .308 will be at my side. If I had a AR in a .260 I might take it ( i really like the ruger and remy). I dont judge a person my the guns they like or hunt with. I may offer my opinion about the caliber, but not gun. How many people insist on using a 300 win mag for deer..penis envy also? Yeah, I think its over kill......but its not under kill which would be unethical.

Regarding miliatary guns and rounds being used for hunting, it has been done for 100 years. After all, the .308 is a military round? The 5.56/.223? oh yea....the 30-06?. The .308 bareley edged out the .300 savage for its current role and the .300 Savage has taken every thing on north america.

Bullet discussion, look up the Hornady Superformance .308 in SST. 3000 FPS, 150 Grain, 20 inch drop at 400yrd when sighted in at 200. At 400 its still going 1953FPS and delivers almost 1500Lbs. VERY close to a .270(I concede and agree, the .270 overall is better at all ranges in most cases, less grains, equal or more energy, flatter shooting). Yeah, it will knock over an Elk. If it has antlers in this hemisphere, the .308 is effective and humane out to 400 yards WITH the right loads. UNDER 300, shoot at anything and it will go down if we do our jobs and hit the right spot. If the .308 is not a good hunting round, then niether is a .270. But wait.....cant do that, its a miltary round, under powered and is not right....I forgot....

This day an age we forget many hunters hunted for years with .300 savage, 30/30, 25-06 and so on. The same people that think the .308 is not a good hunting round are the same ones that think the .243 is a kids gun or womans gun. If it does not have Mag written on the casing then they dont feel like they are shooting a rifle. Recoil does not equal a "mans" gun. The necked down .308 little brother is a great deer gun. In California, we dont need anything more than a .243 or 25-06. Our deer are small and thin boned. The pic is a 200LB old WT taken at 185 yards, with a 100GR Remignton Core Lokt PSP, .243. Dropped dead. So an AR in .243 is a fine deer round from my experience (a 260 would be ideal but I like buying my ammo at walmart). In socal, we always gets looks when we have our guns and are in camos, an AR makes no diff.

Bottomline, the AR is made in appropiate and humane calibers for any of us that are normal hunters without private jets. If you want to take it into the field then do it. If you don't then don't. But, use the right caliber for the task.

Vtec44
07-22-2010, 9:41 PM
my point , morons are everywhere,the gun dosent make the moron.

I have a friend that has a Remington 700 in 308 and a $1200 Leupold scope. He uses it to shoot my steel target at 200 yards. I can do the same with my $600 AR15 and a $50 Barska scope. He does look like a pro with a bolt gun and a giant scope though. I think he likes the idea that people think he's a pro. :D


If you change this

But you have to admit, the majority of posers, wantabes, morons, thugs, short man syndrome having, picked on as a kid gun owning people people all have AR weapons! They feel empowered, respected, feared and cocky.

to this...

But you have to admit, the majority of posers, wantabes, morons, thugs, short man syndrome having, picked on as a kid gun owning people people all have guns! They feel empowered, respected, feared and cocky.

hmm....

It's okay Bigbearstopper, I don't judge. :D

bigboarstopper
07-22-2010, 9:55 PM
well which is it? are they normal folks or small penised idiots?
i have seen plenty of morons with "hunting only" type rifles and AR type rifles
only to be amazed that someone actualy sold them a weapon,
my point , morons are everywhere,the gun dosent make the moron.

I personally know them both. The normal folks im friends with. The idiots just make themselfs known. My point is, while the assault rifle attracts the gun enthusiast of all kinds. The assuault weapon is by far the first and only choice for the idiots and morons because of its looks, intimidation factor, masculation and its the gun that their favorite action hero used.

There are a lot of these people out there. I seem to see one every time I go to the range. Most of the time these people own assault rifles, desert eagles, home defence shotguns and anything else Senator Barbra Boxer would have nightmares about. Im not saying these guns are bad. Im just saying that these guns often attract the people that make the rest of us look bad. Id rather not see these morons in the woods hunting like morons with guns that make them look even dumber.

remington
07-22-2010, 10:10 PM
I get what Big Boar is saying. When I am at Burro, there are people there that i wonder about...hmmm. But as Bigboar said himself, he is stereotyping. "Our" hobby attracts all kinds. Just like the biker crowd. We cannot control the actions of another so just walk the other way if you dont like it. I, as I said, I am not against AR nor do I judge folks that hunt with AR's. I am okay with it and will do it when I get the rifle I want. But the reality for me, is my Ruger is the rig I always grab and always will. It is heavy though....:)

bigboarstopper
07-22-2010, 10:14 PM
Thanks remington. It took me 3 posts for somone to understand what I was trying to say.

speedgoat
07-23-2010, 9:05 AM
If the .308 is not a good hunting round, then niether is a .270...

Yeah, no kidding. Talk to Jack O'Connor about that one. :laugh:

Im just saying that these guns often attract the people that make the rest of us look bad. Id rather not see these morons in the woods hunting like morons with guns that make them look even dumber.

I'd personally rather not see these people hunting in the woods at all, regardless of what weapon they choose to carry, but I realize that's not very realistic. Best thing to do is police yourself, choose your hunting partners wisely, and keep your distance from the Kooks.

Paradiddle
07-23-2010, 9:08 AM
This thread has gone Zumbo. Such closed minded old man thinking (and I'm old for this site).

Jesus - as long as the caliber is appropriate for the game - hunt with what you like. Only a true poser would judge another hunter on a trip by his rifle choice, whether Pre 64, or Camo R15 (assuming caliber is appropriate).

Iknownot
07-23-2010, 10:10 AM
Can someone explain to me in simple terms what difference it makes whether the same bullet leaves a lever rifle, a bolt action, a semi auto hunting rifle or an AR style rifle?

Wouldn't it all come down to the personal preference of the person using whichever rifle it happens to be?

The bullet is, for the most part, doing the same exact thing in the end right?

So what is the difference?

This is like arguing that and American Muscle car is better than a turbo'd out Japanese sports car, but they both have the same 1/4 mile times on the drag strip.

You may like one, or the other, but they are both doing the same thing in the end.

I just don't get it.

spectr17
07-23-2010, 1:58 PM
This thread has gone Zumbo. Such closed minded old man thinking (and I'm old for this site).

Jesus - as long as the caliber is appropriate for the game - hunt with what you like. Only a true poser would judge another hunter on a trip by his rifle choice, whether Pre 64, or Camo R15 (assuming caliber is appropriate).

^^This^^

I'll take a good rifleman over a spray and pray with a bolt action magnum any day.

OffGrid
07-23-2010, 3:02 PM
It all boils down to personal preference.

I usually hunt and/or shoot on my own property or the adjacent ranches so I go out with what ever the heck I feel like taking. (That will accomplish my set goal). I don’t really care what anyone thinks.

Everybody is entitled to their opinions. Just like my cousin who states, “If you can’t track or stalk an animal then you should use a dog to hunt.” That opinion will probably differ from a lot on here, but to him it is valid. Close minded and bigoted like some of the opinions on this thread, but his opinion none the less.

I have tried my best to encourage and inform new shooters I meet and I try my darndest not to ridicule, belittle or discourage them if their style differs from mine. Heck I want as many people on my side (Pro Gun) as possible.

From the BB gun toting 6 year old to the king of the tactical mall ninjas. I don’t really care. As long as you are safe, legal, considerate, and not a complete douche nozzle you can come hunt and/or shoot with me any time.

If any of my statements offend………… Oh well! Let me buy you a beer and we can get over it as we shoot ground squirrels with a 50 cal at 100 yards.

toby
07-23-2010, 3:24 PM
T/C Enccore 250 Savage 3x9 scope, one shot it goes down I'm done, yep no magnum no semi auto,no high speed just done!

dwa
07-23-2010, 3:51 PM
Getting off course here. Remember the topic is AR. Assault rifles. Rifles specifically made for combat. I know that historically ex military weapons have been used for hunting. The older military rifles that grandpa used to hunt deer looked closer to todays regular bolt action hunting rifle than the modern AR. You ever see grandpa use his tommy gun from WWII to hunt? You ever see him use his BAR? No. He would have been teased to death by his fellow hunters.
I dont think any of the ARs used for hunting are actually assault rifles, they need to be select fire to do that, you could put a pistol grip on nearly any semi hunting rifle and would you not have functionally the same gun?

Grandpa's rifle however I would guess looked much different that his grandfathers fire, think about the transition as lever actions the assault rifles of their time and bolt guns took hold increasing the rate of fire an individual would put down exponentially to previous arms?

The truth of the matter is that AR's are cool. They are complex compared to ye ole bolt action wooden gun. They are compared to race cars and other finely tuned pieces of machinery. They can be customized more than any other weapon on the market. They have intimidation and sex appeal. Its the ferrari of guns.

Have you ever been to the range? Ever notice the loudest guy boasting about whatever is usually shooting an AR. After that he pulls out his desert eagle 50 and blasts away his kids college money.
To be fair though ive seen dumb asses with every gun I think you just see more of them with AR's because theres lots of AR's and they re cool
I personally dont know anyone in here that I know has an AR rifle so im not pointing anybody out personally. But I must say whats on my mind about the AR. The AR rifle is the most attractive and sought after gun by people who are either stupid or have the small penis complex.

Like I said before I own a AR rifle. I know many people who do. Most of them are normal folks. But when it comes to idiots, people with complexes and morons who own guns, its always about the AR. The talk is always about shooting 30 round mags from the hip and blasting crap away. They all want or own desert eagles that make the big boom and recite "this is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine!" at the range. Im sure most and hopefully all of you dont fit into this category. But you have to admit, the majority of posers, wantabes, morons, thugs, short man syndrome having, picked on as a kid gun owning people people all have AR weapons! They feel empowered, respected, feared and cocky. I remember once seeing a guy at the range walk completely differently when he was holding his gun. He would stick out his chest like Foghorn Leghorn and walk on his toes so he looked taller. Once the gun was put away he would slouch and shuffle his feet like he normally walked.
Can you say you've seen that only with AR's? Have you run into anyone with a super awesome sniper rifle?...a bolt gun?
I guess in a way im saying that Im prejudice or stereotyping. Even though I own a AR weapon. If I was to come across a person hunting in the woods with an AR weapon I would bet a significant percentage that that person was one of those people I just described.
very well could be but with the large amount of guys coming back from over seas you may see a lot of guys just go with what they know


Let the flogging begin

stupid or small penis? :)

speedgoat
07-23-2010, 4:22 PM
stupid and small penis. . .
. . . is no way to go through life, Son. :D

bigboarstopper
07-23-2010, 4:54 PM
I dont know if I have pissed anybody off in this topic. Its certainly entertaining to me. I see everyones point. I certainly wouldnt want the assault rifle banned in any way, hunting or otherwise.

Another simple point that I would like to make about the assault rifle and hunting is that it has more moving mechanical parts. The bolt action rifle is simple and reliable. Its less apt to fail compared to an AR or any semi automatic rifle built for any purpose. (im speaking generaly). The more moving parts, the more likely its gonna fail. Besides the damn things here in cali are way to expensive for me to bust a bunch of brush with it on my back.

pieeater
07-23-2010, 5:15 PM
I have an AR with a TAO1NSN on it, its fun to shoot at running yotes on open hillsides but personaly thats about all ill use it for. For deer and hogs i use a 300 wby. Everytime im goofing around and just have an AR and go to shoot a hog I feel like im shooting blanks.

CSACANNONEER
07-23-2010, 5:19 PM
The guy who asked about 10 round magazines partly got his thread jacked and the topic turned to the image of the AR used as a hunting rifle. Im reposting my responce in hopes that this topic gets a better understanding from those who have input.

Heres what I wrote on the topic.
I own an AR rifle. The only time I used it to kill animals was ground squirrls. It was nice not to have to reload constantly and there were plenty of oppertunities to shoot one after the other. While I guess this is considered hunting, I considered it killing. Im pretty sure the hunting and non hunting public would probabally agree with me in this circumstance.

An AR can give the impression that a person is "killing". An AR by design is made to shoot its target or targets in volume. While this is handy for ground squirrls and insurgents it dosent represent what the adverage hunter needs. In many mindsets the Ar used in hunting represents the same impression as a pick up truck with a lift kit so big that the driver needs a latter to get in the cab. Its just unnecessary and overkill.

Im sure there are plenty of people who are so proficient with their Ar rifles that using it for hunting is probabally their best bet for an accurate shot and humane kill. However people who enjoy the act of hunting over shooting will almost always choose the most logical, practical, tool that represents the kind of hunt they want and represent. Thats usually and has always been the hunting rifle, bow ect. These tools represent the person who has the one shot kill philosophy. The AR does not represent these things.

Really? Many rifles have been built on an AR platform that were built specifically for one shot kills. If you truely feel that your philosophy is correct, you should research ZUMBO and find out how outdated your thoughts are.

lewdogg21
07-23-2010, 6:01 PM
This thread has gone Zumbo. Such closed minded old man thinking (and I'm old for this site).

Jesus - as long as the caliber is appropriate for the game - hunt with what you like. Only a true poser would judge another hunter on a trip by his rifle choice, whether Pre 64, or Camo R15 (assuming caliber is appropriate).

Great post. Heck I'd like to have and hunt with a .243 or 7mm-08.

ThatFishGuy
07-23-2010, 7:54 PM
I know this is a little off topic but I read somewhere that the "AR" does not actually stand for "Assault Rifle" like the media would have you believe, but rather for the original manufacturer Armalite. But to be totally honest i dont remember where I came across that bit if info.

lewdogg21
07-23-2010, 7:56 PM
I know this is a little off topic but I read somewhere that the "AR" does not actually stand for "Assault Rifle" like the media would have you believe, but rather for the original manufacturer Armalite. But to be totally honest i dont remember where I came across that bit if info.
that is correct.

Vtec44
07-23-2010, 8:02 PM
Another simple point that I would like to make about the assault rifle and hunting is that it has more moving mechanical parts. The bolt action rifle is simple and reliable. Its less apt to fail compared to an AR or any semi automatic rifle built for any purpose. (im speaking generaly). The more moving parts, the more likely its gonna fail. Besides the damn things here in cali are way to expensive for me to bust a bunch of brush with it on my back.

Then we should change the title of this thread from "AR rifles and hunting" to "semi auto rifles and hunting". By reading this thread, it seems like the lies from the liberal media and CA politicians are working. AR15=assault rifle. :rolleyes:

mif_slim
07-23-2010, 9:17 PM
^ lol. right on.

semi-auto = bbbbaaaaaad!!
bolt action = gooooooddd! wait, bbbeeeessst! wait, the ONLY action to end all action.

if that was true then our national athem needs to be changed...you know, the line that says, "in the land of the FREE..." yeah.. we all HAVE to shoot bolt actions even though it's not my desire to.

dwa
07-23-2010, 11:36 PM
I dont know if I have pissed anybody off in this topic. Its certainly entertaining to me. I see everyones point. I certainly wouldnt want the assault rifle banned in any way, hunting or otherwise.

Another simple point that I would like to make about the assault rifle and hunting is that it has more moving mechanical parts. The bolt action rifle is simple and reliable. Its less apt to fail compared to an AR or any semi automatic rifle built for any purpose. (im speaking generaly). The more moving parts, the more likely its gonna fail. Besides the damn things here in cali are way to expensive for me to bust a bunch of brush with it on my back.

But civilian ar's are not assault rifles, they aren't select fire, ARs are the same as any other semi auto hunting rifle if you really think about the ubiquitous Mauser action was designed to kill people and did yet is also the basis of many excellent hunting rifles

toby
07-24-2010, 6:42 AM
It's not whether the gun is bolt or semi auto, what bothers people is the looks of the AR platform those of us who know guns understand what they are and so forth. Those who don't know see the gun as a murder weapon. and then there are those including some here that have seen these guns though not exclusively in the hands of the wrong type of people? whom unfortunately miss handle them or can't shoot them them worth a crap hence rapid fire and never hitting their target and this is where people get the idea they are inaccurate and there for not a desirable hunting rifle, These weapons have gotten a bad rap and it will take some time for that to fade away.

ScottB
07-24-2010, 7:29 AM
Toby has it. I think if some of the AR zealots will read the posts they are disagreeing with, they will notice most of us actually own ARs. I have 2 AR RAWs myself. The AW-type weapons got a bad rap because the gun industry's own marketing back in the 80's. You have to remember, guns really never wear out. So every few years the industry has to come up with a new angle to shore up falling sales. Thus the civilian "assault weapon" was born along with a hard sell and compliant gunzine articles directed at every small-penised mall ninja out there (along with everyone else). And remember, it wasn't just ARs there were all kinds of evil looking bullet hoses out there shown in full color mayhem every week on shows like Miami Vice. The gimmick was a victim of its own success. A few high profile incidents by socially maladapted morons and sociopaths along with a ready vocabulary ginned up by the gun manufacturers themselves and the anti-gunners had a field day and an easy victory. The industry has been backpedalling on the terminology and the image ever since. Nobody here is opposed to ARs per se, we just know they come with baggage.

Those of us who remember that do not want to see it replayed over either gun ownership or hunting - and their are lots of people out there looking for just the opportunity to do that. We do not have a lock on much of anything yet, Heller, et al not withstanding. There are many people on this site, more than any other I know who have way too much piss and vinegar, in-your-face attitude about "I want what I want and screw you" Its an aggressive posture on the face of it and there you are holding a tricked out AW to boot. Not a wise way to go about getting what you want over the long term.

I think all anyone is advising here is that you choose the appropriate rifle for the application (as opposed to rationalizing the AR is the right one for every application) and if you do end up selecting an AR, make it a hunting configuration, not a combat one. Leave the 10/30's home and use fives. Real hunting ammo is too expensive to shoot carelessly. Trust me, changing mags won't wear you or your rifle out. The magazines hanging down, with implication of excessive firepower, down are a big part of what makes people look down their noses at ARs. The quad rails, forward grips, tac-lights, etc, also have no place on a hunting rifle.

Considering the impression you make on others the impact you have on your sport is just a smart way to conduct yourself. Its a small thing, really, but its wise and considerate.

Nookieaki
07-24-2010, 7:37 AM
It all boils down to personal preference.

I usually hunt and/or shoot on my own property or the adjacent ranches so I go out with what ever the heck I feel like taking. (That will accomplish my set goal). I don’t really care what anyone thinks.



Exactly. I hunt with my AR15, I've put down hogs and deer on private land. I hunt with what works for me, not what YOU think is appropriate. When I see another hunter, I don't judge him on what type of rifle he brings because I know he's here for the same thing I am.

Vtec44
07-24-2010, 8:40 AM
These weapons have gotten a bad rap and it will take some time for that to fade away.

The issue won't go away unless you address it and change people's perception.

LloydXmas250
07-24-2010, 8:42 AM
Here. Now can we all get along? http://www.tactilite.com/

Bongos
07-24-2010, 9:26 AM
While I understand the rational that some have for hunting with an AR I personally choose not to. I have a mini-14 that has better range and is more accurate then an AR, which was not designed for that purpose. Both are semi-auto and I much prefer the latter for hunting, however, to each his/her own!

After 83 posts, I'm surprise no one made comment on the above. How can the Mini-14 be more accurate and better range than an AR. First off, using the same caliber and bullet (223) the range is the same. Second, any of my Mini-14s i've owned in my lifetime (8-10) averages a 2-4" spread at 100 yards. My ARs average sub-MOA, I can peg an 8" target all day long out to 400 yards. The Mini-14 Achilles heal is it's design, the noodle barrel as well as the long piston design cripples it with poor accuracy, having the stock containing the op rod piston doesnot help the problem (Ruger basically took the M14 design and made a cheap version in 223, don't get me wrong, for what it is a Mini-14 is a good reliable gune), tht AR has a gas tube and heavier barrel helps in the accuracy department)...Go over to Predator Master Forum, ARs are used for hunting all the time.

THe OP is correct in saying it's a killing platform, the type of hunting with the dogs are pest control and is needed. Now if you go out to a herd of Deer and doing the same without purpose of bringing food to the table, it is a different issue and problem.

toby
07-24-2010, 9:39 AM
The issue won't go away unless you address it and change people's perception.

Exactly, which all of my post's are positve for this type weapon what the bad part is the guy's that have the I don't care attitude.That persona is what others see and or read even if from afar and this gives them reason in their own minds to join the anti's band wagon,,,,OOOOH all is bad! these are the ones we need to address and to a point even if unwilling respect, or at least act as though we do?once these people get relaxed and more informed some day hopefully sooner then later this type of firearm will be more respected and not so feared? but some need to loose the attitude!

m98
07-24-2010, 11:55 AM
After 83 posts, I'm surprise no one made comment on the above. How can the Mini-14 be more accurate and better range than an AR. First off, using the same caliber and bullet (223) the range is the same. Second, any of my Mini-14s i've owned in my lifetime (8-10) averages a 2-4" spread at 100 yards. My ARs average sub-MOA, I can peg an 8" target all day long out to 400 yards. The Mini-14 Achilles heal is it's design, the noodle barrel as well as the long piston design cripples it with poor accuracy, having the stock containing the op rod piston doesnot help the problem (Ruger basically took the M14 design and made a cheap version in 223, don't get me wrong, for what it is a Mini-14 is a good reliable gune), tht AR has a gas tube and heavier barrel helps in the accuracy department)...Go over to Predator Master Forum, ARs are used for hunting all the time.

THe OP is correct in saying it's a killing platform, the type of hunting with the dogs are pest control and is needed. Now if you go out to a herd of Deer and doing the same without purpose of bringing food to the table, it is a different issue and problem.



+1...2x

bigboarstopper
07-24-2010, 1:01 PM
Toby has it. I think if some of the AR zealots will read the posts they are disagreeing with, they will notice most of us actually own ARs. I have 2 AR RAWs myself. The AW-type weapons got a bad rap because the gun industry's own marketing back in the 80's. You have to remember, guns really never wear out. So every few years the industry has to come up with a new angle to shore up falling sales. Thus the civilian "assault weapon" was born along with a hard sell and compliant gunzine articles directed at every small-penised mall ninja out there (along with everyone else). And remember, it wasn't just ARs there were all kinds of evil looking bullet hoses out there shown in full color mayhem every week on shows like Miami Vice. The gimmick was a victim of its own success. A few high profile incidents by socially maladapted morons and sociopaths along with a ready vocabulary ginned up by the gun manufacturers themselves and the anti-gunners had a field day and an easy victory. The industry has been backpedalling on the terminology and the image ever since. Nobody here is opposed to ARs per se, we just know they come with baggage.

Those of us who remember that do not want to see it replayed over either gun ownership or hunting - and their are lots of people out there looking for just the opportunity to do that. We do not have a lock on much of anything yet, Heller, et al not withstanding. There are many people on this site, more than any other I know who have way too much piss and vinegar, in-your-face attitude about "I want what I want and screw you" Its an aggressive posture on the face of it and there you are holding a tricked out AW to boot. Not a wise way to go about getting what you want over the long term.

I think all anyone is advising here is that you choose the appropriate rifle for the application (as opposed to rationalizing the AR is the right one for every application) and if you do end up selecting an AR, make it a hunting configuration, not a combat one. Leave the 10/30's home and use fives. Real hunting ammo is too expensive to shoot carelessly. Trust me, changing mags won't wear you or your rifle out. The magazines hanging down, with implication of excessive firepower, down are a big part of what makes people look down their noses at ARs. The quad rails, forward grips, tac-lights, etc, also have no place on a hunting rifle.

Considering the impression you make on others the impact you have on your sport is just a smart way to conduct yourself. Its a small thing, really, but its wise and considerate.

+1 Now if I could have used these words instead of my origional post I think I would have gotten some more constructive feed back instead of stirring up the hornets nest. Thankyou for your post on the subject

Vtec44
07-24-2010, 4:38 PM
once these people get relaxed and more informed some day hopefully sooner then later this type of firearm will be more respected and not so feared? but some need to loose the attitude!

Their fear is irrational and based on lies, so it won't go away by waiting. The way I see it, more responsible AR hunters out there, the more acceptable it will be. The more it is being used for responsible hunting, the more common it will be. Then, it will no longer some sort of evil "assault rifle" but just another reliable and accurate semi-auto rifle that can be used for hunting. :)

aaronraby1
07-24-2010, 4:59 PM
this type of post makes ARs look worse. you are supposed to support the use of ARs for hunting!! they are already looked down upon. do you really want more reasons for antis to use against them? no. you dont. with that being said, i am planning to build a 6.8 AR with red dot sites for when we walk creeks when we hunt deer. i use my other bolt rifles when i sit and wait or stalk. but like i said, walking creeks involves going through trees, brush, crossing streams. having a small lightweight rifle like that of an AR will benefit me a lot in that situation.