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View Full Version : HK USP .45 vs. Glock 21 vs. Sig P220


Dhena81
07-19-2010, 6:39 PM
There's not to many options in regards to a modern high capacity .45's the Glock 21 has been my choice for the last 7 years. The P220 is accurate and fun to shoot but it is heavy and holds only 8 rounds. I was never really a fan of HK because I've always liked sigs I was being a bit of a fanboy I think and I should be open to new ideas. I also thought the only reason someone would choose an HK over a Sig or Glock was because they thought it looked cooler.

I bought a USP compact in .40 in 2004 (because it looked cool) and I never really liked the gun especially when I would go shoot with my buddy and he brought his p229 in .40 I sold it and figured I would never consider buying an HK again and if I bought something in .40 it would be a sig.

I shot a rental USP .45 at the range with my brother that was considering getting a USP for himself to go along with his USP compact I must say that I was thoroughly impressed with the fullsize USP. I shot so well with it that I'm seriously considering buying one the problem I always had with the hk is the travel and the grittiness of the trigger. I don't know if I'm a better shot or if the gun was just thoroughly broken in there were none of these issues for me at the range. The trigger reset the feel and the accuracy was excellent I'm buying one for sure and considering a civilian 416 next year I forget what its called mr556 or something I have issues.

So to break it down the things I like about the USP light weight, 1911 style safety with decocker, accurate, high capacity, ambidextrous, durable finish, and SA/DA. Dislikes magazine release location and feels like it could be sold for a bit cheaper.

Glock 21 likes lighter than the USP, high capacity, cheapest of the bunch best for the money, polymer magazines, durable finish, the fewest parts to break, and easy to service. Dislikes magazine release, slide release, cheap feel at times, and DAO.

Sig P220 likes all metal feels like a real gun, trigger pull, SA/DA, all parts in the right location they feel smoother and less gritty for example the decocker slide catch and magazine release its like a caddy, feels like you get what you pay for. Dislikes weight, round capacity, and finish durability.

These three to me are all equally accurate and dependable enough for me to exclude these points. The p220 seems like a bit outdated of the three though.

I don't really want to buy a lot of pistols right now because it cuts down the amount of money I can spend on rifles but I really want to have a pistol that is going to be my dedicated SHTF pistol. I've always liked 45acp in the past couple of years I've been considering just sticking to the P226 in 9mm because of the whole firepower vs. mobility thing. I've heard a modern 9mm with the right defensive cartridge is just as lethal as a .45 with the right cartridge because you can't kill zombies to death. I've always from day one believed the .45 is the best pistol cartridge and I haven't warmed up to the .40 what do you guys think there's a lot of issues I have when it comes to my secondary please help with some input and save me from having to buying 4-6 different pistols.

For me if this was a HK USP 9mm vs. Glock 17 vs. P226 I wouldn't hesitate to choose the P226.

Lead-Thrower
07-19-2010, 6:50 PM
USP. But that is just my personal preference. All three of your options are excellent weapons.

The reason I prefer the HK are:

-The lever-style mag release feels more natural to me. Reloads are much faster and do not require as much manipulation of my grip on the gun.
-I have big hands, so the HK fits my hand well.
-They are very accurate guns, and in my opinion, every bit as reliable as Glocks.
-They look awesome. :cool: (Sorry, but I think Glocks are just plain ugly)

Ding126
07-19-2010, 6:54 PM
by USP and add match trigger or expert model

Cato
07-19-2010, 6:57 PM
I have a USP .45 and the trigger isn't nearly as bad as my USP 40. Still, you'd think HK would put a better trigger in such an expensive gun. It is a beautiful gun nonetheless.

Pre Obama Sig p220s are awesome but capacity is low and the metal frame is pretty heavy. You couldn't GIVE me a recently made Sig model: their quality control is terrible.

I think if my life depended on it, I'd get the Glock.

SixtyDashOne
07-19-2010, 7:00 PM
USP

taguin
07-19-2010, 7:02 PM
They're all excellent weapons. I would buy the one that fits my hand the best.
Just my 2 cents.

Sheepdog1968
07-19-2010, 7:06 PM
Unless you are really going to carry it daily, I wouldn't worry about the weight. In fact the extra weight would be welcomed for a back up weapon in the home as easier recoil management. I think all three are fine weapons and it really comes down to a Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge kind of question. If you really want one more than the others, then just go with that.

Steve1968LS2
07-19-2010, 7:07 PM
I have both a 220 and USP .45

Love them both.. the Sig seems to have a more "expensive" feel.. most likely just because it's an all metal gun.

Both shoot great and I would trust either with my life but after seen some videos the Sig is what I would grap if the world was ending. lol

Mstnpete
07-19-2010, 7:17 PM
I have both Glock 21 & Sig 220 and both are great weapons.

DaveFJ80
07-19-2010, 7:20 PM
Glock 21 likes lighter than the USP, high capacity, cheapest of the bunch best for the money, polymer magazines, durable finish, the fewest parts to break, and easy to service. Dislikes magazine release, slide release, cheap feel at times, and DAO.

Usually the 2 most common things changed out with Glock owners. Maybe not so many with the extended mag release, but for sure the extended slide release as it makes life a lot easier. You can buy both extended pieces together for about $10-$20.

Dhena81
07-19-2010, 7:21 PM
I have a USP .45 and the trigger isn't nearly as bad as my USP 40. Still, you'd think HK would put a better trigger in such an expensive gun. It is a beautiful gun nonetheless.

Pre Obama Sig p220s are awesome but capacity is low and the metal frame is pretty heavy. You couldn't GIVE me a recently made Sig model: their quality control is terrible.

I think if my life depended on it, I'd get the Glock.
The HK is a beautiful gun. What makes you say the sigs quality control is terrible now I was steering my mom to buy a P229 in 9mm for protection. Is it because of their new compact the p238 has had issues or have you seen it first hand or read about it this is news to me.

XYZ
07-19-2010, 7:24 PM
They're all excellent weapons. I would buy the one that fits my hand the best.


^^ This right here. All great choices. You can't go wrong.

neomedic
07-19-2010, 7:24 PM
Pre Obama Sig p220s are awesome but capacity is low and the metal frame is pretty heavy. You couldn't GIVE me a recently made Sig model: their quality control is terrible.



When were the Sigs bad...only in 2008? How about mid to late 2007? Was their quality control any better? I guess I'm asking when did the bad Sigs first appear and what were their issues?

willm952
07-19-2010, 7:35 PM
I'd say go for the glock. Ugly but it works. Plentiful parts and mags. The trigger reset on the glock has a lot less travel. Consistent pull. My fn fnp 40. Man that first shot, 12lbs! then immediately to 5 lbs + travel. Mags for the glock are a lot cheaper than factory mags for the hk. My friend has the usp 45 full size. Factory mags run $50 for the 12 rounder. There are some pro-mag that you can find for around $25 - $30/mag. Seems to work.
Extended slide release on glocks snags when drawing from holster especially iwb type holsters. You could change out the mag release though.

But for a shtf pistol, glock. I thought about that too zombies and whatever else.

Even thought about lwrc repr for a battle rifle $3500. 5.56 ain't cutting it in afghanistan. Marines and seals switched pronto. Busted out the old m14 from the warehouse since afghanistan is 400 - 600m war zone and that 308 can bust through walls, wood cover. But then I thought about the fal too. Think for an ideal setup:

pistol 40 cal or 45acp. 10mm nice to have, 9mm capacity is tempting 17 rounds in glock 17
rifle ar type gas piston for less cleaning and no smoking from the chamber
ak 47 for cheap ammo that can bust through wood, cover etc.
or m1a or fal for a true battle rifle but the ak is so much light 7lbs vers 9 1/2lbs empty! onces = pounds
pump shotgun 870 or mossberg 590a1 with dragon's breath, low recoil buckshot

sorry for going off topic a bit but shtf always does the trick.

for cost/ stable logistics of ammo 45acp/7.62 x39 or 9mm/308

Hope this helps out.

UserM4
07-19-2010, 7:47 PM
USP haters usually have never shot one and don't appreciate the accuracy or are just incapable of realizing it's potential. My bro shot my USP9 for the first time at ASR yesterday and he couldn't believe how accurate he was with it. It sorta bugged me that he shot 3/10 pie plate swingers at 50yds and I only hit 2/10. :( But I hit the pie plate at 100yds in my first mag and it took him two mags. :p Anyways, he shot better with it than with his own guns.

l8apex
07-19-2010, 8:07 PM
Glock 21 likes lighter than the USP, high capacity, cheapest of the bunch best for the money, polymer magazines, durable finish, the fewest parts to break, and easy to service. Dislikes magazine release, slide release, cheap feel at times, and DAO.


Easily fixed with Vickers mag release and factory extended slide release. As far as feeling cheap, I'm not quite sure if you are looking for a collectors piece or something that you can be proficient with. Aesthetics and what platform will work in a defensive scenario are two very different things. Aesthetics are important, but they are a distant 6th or 7th when deciding on a fighting pistol.

I'm not quite sure how the Glock DAO or other striker fired platforms similar to Glock are a disadvantage.

I've been honored to have owned and shot numerous .45s on an extended term, including the ones you listed, my vote if not deciding on a 1911 platform: Smith & Wesson MP45

till44
07-19-2010, 8:12 PM
I've owned a USP 45 and G21. I've put thousands of rounds down range and ran both through classes/training. I sold the USP and still have the Glock.

1911su16b870
07-19-2010, 8:13 PM
Own P220, USP and G21. I own two G21s! :D

Dhena81
07-19-2010, 8:42 PM
Easily fixed with Vickers mag release and factory extended slide release. As far as feeling cheap, I'm not quite sure if you are looking for a collectors piece or something that you can be proficient with. Aesthetics and what platform will work in a defensive scenario are two very different things. Aesthetics are important, but they are a distant 6th or 7th when deciding on a fighting pistol.

I'm not quite sure how the Glock DAO or other striker fired platforms similar to Glock are a disadvantage.

I've been honored to have owned and shot numerous .45s on an extended term, including the ones you listed, my vote if not deciding on a 1911 platform:

Smith & Wesson MP 45


The DAO hasn't been a problem for me with quality ammo your right it's really a none issue I have had some bad primers with reloads though and after a second strike it has fired I don't know if it's the right thing to do but I don't like to waste ammo. With regards to the 1911 that is just to much of a debate to even bring into the picture it's not just a 1911 vs glock vs sig vs hk it's 1911 vs 1911.

I have not considered the Smith MP from what I've heard not from my own experience is why not just buy a glock. Granted that's an easy way out I should find out for myself and understand why thanks for the input.

On my G21 I have sand decal grips, a 3.5 lb connector, extended slide release, metal recoil spring, titanium firing pin, and titanium plunger I should check out the mag release. I'm still not crazy about the extended slide release and the only reason I don't mind it much is because I do agree with you about being proficient because in the end of the day we are just talking about a pistol.

The next 1911 I will buy will be my collectors piece like I said though you know that's a whole different discussion Ed Brown vs. Les Bear vs. Nighthawk vs. Wilson Combat vs. Springfield Pro.

I've owned a USP 45 and G21. I've put thousands of rounds down range and ran both through classes/training. I sold the USP and still have the Glock.

What made you sell the USP I'm very comfortable with the 21 BTW I'm almost bored with it at times I find I take out the 226 more not entirely because of ammo prices though. I've had the 21 for 7 or 8 years and have probably put more than 30,000 rounds down range about 250 rounds a month not that it's near the end of its service life it's like having that old truck that still runs like a champ but in the back of your mind your saying is this the day she's going to die. I want to buy a new .45 and was wondering if I should buy a G21, P220, or HK USP. The only thing I've changed in the G21 was the recoil spring 2 times whenever I think I'm hovering around 10,000 I don't know if it's necessary I just do it.

Own P220, USP and G21. I own two G21s! :D
Why 2 are you a modern cowboy LOL JK man.

RT13
07-20-2010, 2:45 AM
Own all three. The Sig P220 hand sdown is the best shooter in both feel, accuracy, recoil, and trigger feel. I like the USP45 and G21 about the same and both relaible and great guns, but the P220 is the KING of non 1911 .45.

1911su16b870
07-20-2010, 9:46 AM
...Why 2 are you a modern cowboy LOL JK man.

ching...ching...ching...why yes I am! :D

Rivers
07-20-2010, 10:01 AM
The "gritty trigger" might have been because it was a rental gun. What kind of maintenance (lubrication) did that rental USP get?

I have a USPf .45 with the light LEM trigger. It's very smooth and predictable. I'd truly be hard pressed to think of a trigger system that is better for SHTF situations. The USP has been scary reliable, eats everything I feed it, is very accurate and has been worth its price. Once you're shooting with the USP, you'll forget all about money.

About the mag release: use the middle finger of your trigger hand to push the release down. It's fast, consistent and made for rapid mag changes. Once you get used to it, you'll understand why it is where it is. Then other pistols just seem "wrong".

Oldnoob
07-20-2010, 10:12 AM
Beside 1911 platform, the Sig 220 is my most preferred 45acp pistol platform.

E. Fudd
07-20-2010, 11:45 AM
I have both the USP and G21.

The USP with the higher barrel has more muzzle whip than the lower G21 bore axis.

For SD, the G21's trigger is easier for me to shoot accurately with speed under stress. The USP's DA/SA trigger is tougher to do fast accurate dedicated pairs with. Requires lots more practice to work with that DA trigger. Cocked and locked mode would be a better workaround, if you want to pack in that condition.

That said, for slow target shooting, I found my USP more accurate than the G21, albeit with more muzzle whip.

If cost is an issue, you'd do fine with the G21, if the grip fits your hand, and you can put the savings towards your rifles. The USP has a smaller grip.

My G21 is my go to gun for training classes, competition, and SHTF... ; )

Lead-Thrower
07-20-2010, 12:11 PM
About the mag release: use the middle finger of your trigger hand to push the release down. It's fast, consistent and made for rapid mag changes. Once you get used to it, you'll understand why it is where it is. Then other pistols just seem "wrong".

Yup. Using the middle finger makes mag changes fast and comfortable. Try using your thumb and it feels incredibly akward...

softmentor
07-20-2010, 2:32 PM
I like the HK because when I shot all 3 of these, I had tighter groups with the HK USP 45 full size. The trigger may be a little heavier than some but irregardless, or maybe because of that, I shoot best with HK. I for one like the trigger and I like the DA/SA setup. There is a "match" trigger available, if you want to have a lighter one. Not to expensive and folks I hear got 'em love 'em.

Massappeal
07-20-2010, 3:52 PM
YOu cannot go wrong with the Glock or the HK (can't say much about the SIg since I do not own one, but shot them and they are nice!), I have the G30sf and the HKUSP45 elite and I like them equally for there own reasons.
Although I think everyone should have at least one glock in there collection :jump:

JoeGSX
07-20-2010, 6:32 PM
I have a 220 ST and USP 45. Both have there advantages. But my perfered is the 220ST.

Capt. Speirs
07-20-2010, 9:14 PM
Don't compare a Glock to a Sig or HK, the Glock can't hold a candle to the other two. The USP would be my choice.

huckberry668
07-20-2010, 10:00 PM
where do you guys get P220 as being heavy?
P220 = 30.6oz.
Glock 21 = 26.28oz.
Full size HK USP = 31oz

Personally, I've owned all 3 of them and current own 3 USPs in 45acp and 1x p220 and don't own any Glock 21. Forget Glock 21, it's bulky (except the new slim version), lack accuracy (compare to the other 2) and tend to blow up. I blew one up on exactly the 12th round of low velocity match jacketed load for whatever reason.

My USPs are: Expert, Elite and Tactical. All capable of shooting less than 1.5" groups at 25 yards but all cost around $1000 each. Great guns and lots of features but the stupid rails might as well absent. Can't shoot lead bullets.

P220 isn't outdated by any stretch of imagination. It may lack a little in capacity in comparison but it's probably one of most accurate 45acp production grade pistol on the market. I've had owned 2 and shot several more. Most of them police trade-ins and all were capable of 1.5" groups easily at 25 yards.

I love the P220 the most for its simplicity, sunrise reliability, silky smooth, match level accuracy, compactness (compare to the other 2), can shoot lead bullets and it only cost me $475 6 years ago. Plus, I can easily put a laser on it even though it doesn't have rails. Hammer forged barrel will last a life time. If I can only have 1 45ACP pistol for the rest of my life, it'll be a P220 (or the 5" barrel versions) hands down.

advocatusdiaboli
07-20-2010, 10:32 PM
I realize we are talking .45 and I have .40s but...if this helps regarding the various form factors and features...

I owned a USP .40 and now shoot a Sig P299/P226/P239. Both makes are great pistols and, having fired but don't own .40 Glocks (yet) they are great as well. They all have minor tradeoffs: price (Glock wins), heft (matters in the .40 recoil control--Sig is heaviest and wins), durability (all in varying situations), safeties/de-cockers/etc (they all offer such a wide choice), size (you need full size including trigger guard with glove-sized holes--H&K or Sig 226R). They are all good--you cannot go wrong with any of them in the main. Since everyone's grips and hand size varies, try all you can before buying. You cannot go wrong with those three. I prefer Sigs but I am biased for my own reasons.

Dhena81
07-20-2010, 10:47 PM
where do you guys get P220 as being heavy?
P220 = 30.6oz.
Glock 21 = 26.28oz.
Full size HK USP = 31oz

Personally, I've owned all 3 of them and current own 3 USPs in 45acp and 1x p220 and don't own any Glock 21. Forget Glock 21, it's bulky (except the new slim version), lack accuracy (compare to the other 2) and tend to blow up. I blew one up on exactly the 12th round of low velocity match jacketed load for whatever reason.

My USPs are: Expert, Elite and Tactical. All capable of shooting less than 1.5" groups at 25 yards but all cost around $1000 each. Great guns and lots of features but the stupid rails might as well absent. Can't shoot lead bullets.

P220 isn't outdated by any stretch of imagination. It may lack a little in capacity in comparison but it's probably one of most accurate 45acp production grade pistol on the market. I've had owned 2 and shot several more. Most of them police trade-ins and all were capable of 1.5" groups easily at 25 yards.

I love the P220 the most for its simplicity, sunrise reliability, silky smooth, match level accuracy, compactness (compare to the other 2), can shoot lead bullets and it only cost me $475 6 years ago. Plus, I can easily put a laser on it even though it doesn't have rails. Hammer forged barrel will last a life time. If I can only have 1 45ACP pistol for the rest of my life, it'll be a P220 (or the 5" barrel versions) hands down.

The p220 I held seemed heavy to me out of the three. I found out yesterday that the reason it was so heavy was because it was a SS p220 and it has a steel frame not aluminum like the other models which contribute to the weight. I just looked at Sigs site and the SS is 39.1 oz the standard P220 is 30.4 oz. Your right the HK is the heaviest at 1.96lbs or 31.35 oz. I like the feel of the 220 but I'm going with the HK without a doubt the more I think about it. I'll be getting a P220 one of these days I keep putting it off but I can't afford everything I want anyways and I have to compromise and that's one more reason I should go with HK lol. Compactness to me doesn't matter because I can't carry it concealed anyways and if I was looking for something for a CCW I would either choose the sig 239 or Kahr pm9.

remyjoeboxer
07-21-2010, 12:06 AM
I'd go with the 220. The others are fine, no actually great, but I just like the 220 and how it feels to me. You HAVE to go with what is right with you.

OmutaX
07-21-2010, 12:40 AM
If you like the P226, the P220 would make you happiest I think in the long run. HK pistols are way low on my list of firearms I want in my collection in the future because of their absolutely atrocious out of the box triggers. Even the LEM triggers were disappointing to me. I love how handsome HKs are, but won't buy them without also budgeting some $ for some gunsmith work to thoroughly work on the action.

Out of those three for me, I'd probably get the Glock 21(Already have one! A 21SF) because like many others here have said, parts are plentiful, it's EXTREMELY easy to detail strip and do all your own smithin', and that polymer frame soaks up .45 recoil better than the Sig in my opinion. But of course if I had the money for more than one, I'd get the Sig first others later :D.

Check this out for an interesting read on torturing the Glock 21. This guy RAPES his G21 and it's still going strong.

http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90

civilsnake
07-21-2010, 8:18 AM
I have fired all three, and currently own a standard 220.

My favorite shooter was the USP, but slimmer profile of the SIG won out in the end. It made sense to me to stick with a single stack since I'd have to buy limited mags in the other two. The Glock was very nice to shoot, but I reload .45acp, and didn't want to deal with potentially damaging brass.

So honestly, none of them is a loser in my book. If you don't reload and don't plan on starting (or don't buy into the unsupported chamber hype) get the G21. It'll save you a couple hundred bucks you can put toward ammo or a holster or beer.

huckberry668
07-21-2010, 10:14 AM
The p220 I held seemed heavy to me out of the three. I found out yesterday that the reason it was so heavy was because it was a SS p220 and it has a steel frame not aluminum like the other models which contribute to the weight.

ah, that's why. however, weight dampens recoil & makes follow up shots easier.

I like the feel of the 220 but I'm going with the HK without a doubt the more I think about it. .... Compactness to me doesn't matter because I can't carry it concealed anyways and if I was looking for something for a CCW I would either choose the sig 239 or Kahr pm9.

HK is a good choice too. that's why i own 4 of them (1 in 40sw). The reason Sig P220 is my best choice is because my wife can hold/shoot it easier than the HKs.

Foriegn power
07-21-2010, 11:41 AM
One of my factors with only the sig 220 and the Glock is the double and single action trigger. I'm use to the double action, thus why I'm biased and choose Glock, it's all self preference.

faterikcartman
07-21-2010, 12:08 PM
Own all three. The Sig P220 hand sdown is the best shooter in both feel, accuracy, recoil, and trigger feel. I like the USP45 and G21 about the same and both relaible and great guns, but the P220 is the KING of non 1911 .45.

This ^^^^^!!!...all week long, including holidays and Sundays. Not knocking the others at all, but if I had to pick ONE, it would be the Sig.

The P220 is my wife's primary weapon by the way. Standing, isosceles, without a rest, at 25 yards, she can consistently put 8 shots in 4", and feels very comfortable and confident with the feel of the firearm.

rumblebee
07-21-2010, 1:52 PM
This....just make sure it's a P220 Combat that fits your hand!
:p
They're all excellent weapons. I would buy the one that fits my hand the best.
Just my 2 cents.

wild-weasel
08-31-2010, 3:15 PM
I've had all 3 and the only one I still have the the Sig p220.

nazgulnarsil
08-31-2010, 3:23 PM
fnp/fnx 45 :p

Dan_K
08-31-2010, 3:51 PM
P220 gets my vote and I actually don't like the P226 that much. I would also consider the G30SF. The G21 is a very large gun, but shoots great. I felt like the G21 had less muzzle flip than the P220, so follow up would be faster. The P220 feels the best in my hand though.

Miltiades
08-31-2010, 6:18 PM
I have the USP and the Sig P220, but not the Glock 21. I think that I prefer shooting the Sig over the USP, although both guns seem equally accurate to me. The Sig has a more pleasing trigger, and capacity differences don't matter to me.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/pogo2/Two45s01.jpg

darkjedi351
08-31-2010, 9:00 PM
buy the hk. it will also hold it's value better than the glock if you decide to sell it.

AIMSMALL
08-31-2010, 9:39 PM
I've got the P220 and a G30, I haven't shot a USP. I like the trigger reset much better on the glock then on the Sig. Both guns are accurate enough for me and feel good in the hands, the HK doesn't fit my hand well so I've always skipped over them. I really would love to get a glock 21SF too but $$ are a little tight at the moment.

jptsr1
08-31-2010, 9:42 PM
I have both Glock 21 & Sig 220 and both are great weapons.

this.

yzernie
09-01-2010, 4:48 AM
Pre Obama Sig p220s are awesome but capacity is low and the metal frame is pretty heavy. You couldn't GIVE me a recently made Sig model: their quality control is terrible.
Please step out of the late 1990's and early 2000's when SigArms did have some suspect QC issues. The QC of the current Sig Sauer guns is as good or better than any production line gun made these days.

gorenut
09-01-2010, 8:39 AM
Please step out of the late 1990's and early 2000's when SigArms did have some suspect QC issues. The QC of the current Sig Sauer guns is as good or better than any production line gun made these days.

I tend to believe this as well. Most Sigs I have handled were crafted excellently. Only qualms I really have with em are small cost-cutting things like plastic guide rod (I know this for the most part doesn't affect performance). If a consumer is paying a premium for a gun, you'd think they'd keep it feeling it consistently through-out the gun. I think we're just hearing more about the lemons in Sig because more people are abundant on the internet vs the 90s to complain about it. I would like to see some actual documented QC stats though just so I would know for sure.

dilligaffrn
09-01-2010, 12:26 PM
I own all 3, the 21 gets shot the most.

YMMV

elSquid
09-01-2010, 12:43 PM
I tend to believe this as well. Most Sigs I have handled were crafted excellently. Only qualms I really have with em are small cost-cutting things like plastic guide rod (I know this for the most part doesn't affect performance). If a consumer is paying a premium for a gun, you'd think they'd keep it feeling it consistently through-out the gun. I think we're just hearing more about the lemons in Sig because more people are abundant on the internet vs the 90s to complain about it. I would like to see some actual documented QC stats though just so I would know for sure.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=408944&postcount=10

Actually, no. The main difference is that ten years ago all the small parts were manufactured by Sauer in Germany and then still QC checked when they arrived in Exeter. Now they're bought from other companies all over the world (Israel & SE Asia, for instance) and clearly they aren't being subjected to the same level of QC.

Quote:
I also agree that I think the problems are magnified by the internet, and time. People remember a fonder time, and the people that had broken German Sigs are less likely to own Sigs currently.

This has nothing to do with Germany vs. Exeter. Guns being manufactured in Exeter in the early part of this decade were as high quality and dependable as any SIGs ever manufactured. It has to do with decisions to outsource more parts including critical components such as the locking insert, a decision to cease test firing of non-LE guns (and at some points in time, many LE guns), etc.

Prior to the current CEO's appointment, SIG was struggling to remain solvent. The new CEO was brought in to cut costs and improve profitability. He's done exactly what the owners want, which is why he was elevated to running the entire international group.

This is the reality of the industry right now. You can either have very high QC and very high prices, or you can have "good enough" QC and competitive pricing. The only big company still following the first model is HK, and they probably don't sell a quarter as many guns as their competition.

-- Michael

ap3572001
09-01-2010, 3:25 PM
Glock is the very easy to shoot.
USP is VERY accurate.
Sig is the best to carry.

All three are VERY good guns.

yzernie
09-01-2010, 7:31 PM
It has to do with decisions to outsource more parts including critical components such as the locking insert, a decision to cease test firing of non-LE guns (and at some points in time, many LE guns), etc.

This is the reality of the industry right now.
Reality of the industry, an absolutely accurate description!! All companies, including the auto makers world wide are subscribing to that very same philosophy.

Sig Sauer test fires every gun before it leaves the factory, all civilian guns and LEO guns. They used to put multiple mags through them but now they only put 30-50rds through each gun. I sell a lot of Sigs and I have only had to send back one slide because of the white bar on rear sight was not aligned properly...a minor issue.

ddindetroit
11-19-2010, 11:06 AM
There's not to many options in regards to a modern high capacity .45's the Glock 21 has been my choice for the last 7 years. The P220 is accurate and fun to shoot but it is heavy and holds only 8 rounds. I was never really a fan of HK because I've always liked sigs I was being a bit of a fanboy I think and I should be open to new ideas. I also thought the only reason someone would choose an HK over a Sig or Glock was because they thought it looked cooler.

I bought a USP compact in .40 in 2004 (because it looked cool) and I never really liked the gun especially when I would go shoot with my buddy and he brought his p229 in .40 I sold it and figured I would never consider buying an HK again and if I bought something in .40 it would be a sig.

I shot a rental USP .45 at the range with my brother that was considering getting a USP for himself to go along with his USP compact I must say that I was thoroughly impressed with the fullsize USP. I shot so well with it that I'm seriously considering buying one the problem I always had with the hk is the travel and the grittiness of the trigger. I don't know if I'm a better shot or if the gun was just thoroughly broken in there were none of these issues for me at the range. The trigger reset the feel and the accuracy was excellent I'm buying one for sure and considering a civilian 416 next year I forget what its called mr556 or something I have issues.

So to break it down the things I like about the USP light weight, 1911 style safety with decocker, accurate, high capacity, ambidextrous, durable finish, and SA/DA. Dislikes magazine release location and feels like it could be sold for a bit cheaper.

Glock 21 likes lighter than the USP, high capacity, cheapest of the bunch best for the money, polymer magazines, durable finish, the fewest parts to break, and easy to service. Dislikes magazine release, slide release, cheap feel at times, and DAO.

Sig P220 likes all metal feels like a real gun, trigger pull, SA/DA, all parts in the right location they feel smoother and less gritty for example the decocker slide catch and magazine release its like a caddy, feels like you get what you pay for. Dislikes weight, round capacity, and finish durability.

These three to me are all equally accurate and dependable enough for me to exclude these points. The p220 seems like a bit outdated of the three though.

I don't really want to buy a lot of pistols right now because it cuts down the amount of money I can spend on rifles but I really want to have a pistol that is going to be my dedicated SHTF pistol. I've always liked 45acp in the past couple of years I've been considering just sticking to the P226 in 9mm because of the whole firepower vs. mobility thing. I've heard a modern 9mm with the right defensive cartridge is just as lethal as a .45 with the right cartridge because you can't kill zombies to death. I've always from day one believed the .45 is the best pistol cartridge and I haven't warmed up to the .40 what do you guys think there's a lot of issues I have when it comes to my secondary please help with some input and save me from having to buying 4-6 different pistols.

For me if this was a HK USP 9mm vs. Glock 17 vs. P226 I wouldn't hesitate to choose the P226.

Hey,

If you can handle and get used to the HK USP Expert in 45 -- it is the hands down winner in terms of reliability, accuracy and high capacity (with LE mags). I used to carry this in the field.

However,

If money is a concern, the Glock 21SF, in 45 in a bargain. Reliable and relatively accurate. If you fit a BarSto barrel in it, this gun becomes almost as accurate as custom guns like the Springfield Professional. The Glock 21 SF has become my field pistol due to the cost factor.

DD:D

ap3572001
11-19-2010, 11:09 AM
I own a USP 45. Owned Sig P220 and Glock 21.

What ammuntion will You be using?

Is it for duty , carry or just shooting?

1994prerunner
11-19-2010, 11:23 AM
USP - I have no idea

G21 - I have broken one (and a G30) and I am still not sold on the construction quality. Although Glock customer service is the best I've seen.

HK - Very reliable. Trusted as a military/LEO service pistol. Shoots +P no problem.


I talk pistols with cops a lot here in San Diego. I was told since sdpd and swat could use 45acp (+P) they were experiencing failures with some 1911's and sigs while training. SWAT liked the hk best due to the reliability. Go down town on a crowded night and look for the officer on a bicycle with a HK and ask him :)

451040
11-19-2010, 12:00 PM
Glock 21 > HK USP .45 or Sig P220

ricksOe
11-19-2010, 12:28 PM
My $0.02

Kick the glock outtah the choice list and decide between the sig 220 and USP-45

sker13
11-19-2010, 1:04 PM
P220 Carry w/night sights and ten round mags for the win! The day I shot a P220 ST I was forever ruined. I have a 1911 that I shoot well. I am just as proficient if not more so with the P220.

I am surprised no one mentioned the 10 round mags sooner.

fullrearview
11-19-2010, 1:18 PM
I carry a USP 40 and hate it.....No matter how much I train on it, some times a still draw and activate the safety (I carry with safety off). Its too big in my hand, and I hate the trigger(But that can be fixed).

Of the group you gave, I would say P220. I love sigs. Egros are good for me. Glock loses me with egros too!

XD45 maybe????

M&P 45???

Lots of options!

hoss_hk
11-19-2010, 2:37 PM
On my G21 I have sand decal grips, a 3.5 lb connector, extended slide release, metal recoil spring, titanium firing pin, and titanium plunger.


Agreed on improvements to the platform. But is it still apples and oranges with Glock vs. Sig and HK? factory vs factory vs factory

mattja
11-19-2010, 5:56 PM
The first time I shot a USP45F was a rental at the indoor range in Vacaville. I bought one the following Monday from Trader's.

Eleven years later, it's still my favorite handgun, and I have purchased quite a few since then. The recoil of the USP really is a push and not a snap. It makes it a pleasure to shoot. And it's accurate as hell. The Trijicons are just now starting to dim and when I replace them, I fully expect to get another ten years out of the gun.

I own a 1911, an M&P45, and a couple of different HK .45 ACP models, and the USP45F is still my go-to gun.

Justintoxicated
11-19-2010, 6:04 PM
I'd go to the range and try the HK USP Expert in 45ACP w/ 10 rounds and the glock 21. I think you will like the Expert better, but the glock is such a good value (almost 1/3rd the price).

I haven't had any problems with my experts trigger, but I'm also very accurate with my friends glock. They are both great weapons. The glock is probably the best bang for the buck IMO, but I do like my HK better overall.

AeroEngi
11-19-2010, 6:32 PM
Go with the Sig. I own a P220R and I absolutely love it! I don't know what it is but it just feels right in my hands. I can consistently shoot 4" to 6" groups at 25 yards with mine. I've put around 700 rounds through it so far and it has been reliable 100% of the time, no hiccups. If you're concerned about the mag capacity then you can always get the 10 round extended mags. Trust me, get the P220 and you won't be disappointed.

macey109
11-19-2010, 6:39 PM
check out the below


http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90

freonr22
11-19-2010, 6:44 PM
Super happy w my p220st

den888
11-19-2010, 6:45 PM
I would pick the USP...

Mac Attack
11-19-2010, 6:47 PM
I owned a G21 but sold it as I found the G30 to be easier to carry and it fit my hand better. I like the Sig 220 and have shot many of them but the capacity issue is a detractor to me as is the price. HK's are nice but top heavy and blocky but felt recoil as less with it than the 21 or 220. Of your three choices listed I would to with the 21. However, I recently shot a M&P45 and really liked how it felt and shot. Nice narrow grip and great grip angle.

I would buy a M&P45 over any of the 3.

Sicarius
11-19-2010, 7:22 PM
If intended for HD or carry, Glock 21sf would be my choice. I can't stand the trigger on my usp45 though I do love the gun. The sig and HK have somewhat of a tall slide so the felt recoil is a bit more on the usp out of all of them. The Sig is a beautiful gun and shoots great but the lack of a 10 round mag that sits flush with the bottom of the grip swayed me from getting one. For HD, I would get in this order... Glock, usp, sig. For pure pleasure, Sig, USP, glock. All around use... USP, glock, sig. Probably didn't help ya much. haha.
Kevin

jumpthestack
11-19-2010, 7:52 PM
M&P45. Compared to the Glock, the M&P has a more ergonomic grip and changeable backstraps. The M&P 45 was designed as a 10 rounder so the grip is no bigger than it needs to be, for Californians. It has a beavertail on the grip so you can get a very high grip without worrying about slide bite. You can field strip the M&P without pulling the trigger. It comes with metal sights and mags unlike the Glock. The M&P trigger kinda sucks out of the box, but is quite good after adding the Apex sear and striker block. S&W is an American company.

On a M&P the slide automatically goes forward when you slam in a loaded mag, which you may or may not like.

I'd avoid the SIG, their quality woes are pretty well known at this point. I have a P220 from 2009 which has been back to SIG twice for repairs for reliability issues, and the customer service was not very good either.

sevensix2x51
11-19-2010, 8:05 PM
add me to the list of folks who have the pistol they shoot the best.

i shot a glock 21 for a good long while. but a USP sits in its place now, and i couldnt be happier. and i like my trigger. its not gritty at all. condition 1 carry, and youll never feel the heavy DA pull. it took design cues from the 1911, so i can switch between the two relatively easily. i like to be able to carry a pistol "cocked and locked," as they say, so the hk is the natural choice for me. my only gripe is that the safety on the usp doesnt lock the slide in place. oh well, its not really a big deal.

Dhena81
11-19-2010, 8:06 PM
Basically my problem too.

I still haven't bought a new .45 I bought a LMT MRP and a M&P9 on sale though and love it except for the fact I had a few magazine related issues and my front sights white dot shattered after about 400 rounds through it in one night. I thought they were genuine Novak well I'm not impressed S&W will take care of me. I'd really like to get my hands on an HK45 it might happen sooner than later if people start making single shot mods or Gene pwns in court. I think I'm probably going to save my money and buy a Nighthawk GRP recon with the diamond finish.

Actually I really think I'm going to have to buy all three the HK45 or usp, Sig P220 combat from yzernie and the Nighthawk and keep my Glock 21. I bought a barsto barrel I just need to get it fitted since it won't drop in right now and get the grip reduction so it fits in my hand better and take the humps off and stippled rough. It's too tough of a decision I really like guns and I really like .45

sirgiles
11-19-2010, 9:32 PM
fairly close in my opinion.
1.hk usp 45 elite
2.sig p220r with srt

glock 21sf is not in the same class.

Dhena81
11-19-2010, 9:37 PM
fairly close in my opinion.
1.hk usp 45 elite
2.sig p220r with srt

glock 21sf is not in the same class.

I know there not really in the same class but they are all high reliable weapons and that is what really matters right?

gonzo1510
11-19-2010, 9:43 PM
I own the P-220 and have shot my buddies HK and his Glock 21, I have to say that I've never cared for the Glock trigger guard. I think its on the small side. I personally prefer the over sized guards found on the hk, sig, and Beretta. I sold my g22 because of this. I wear gloves at work and found that it was very difficult to draw and shoot with gloves on. I never had that issue with the other makes.

eccvets
11-20-2010, 4:52 AM
I say HK all the way! thats just me though and I have yet to shoot the siggy...

randy
11-20-2010, 5:18 AM
Last week I took the Nevada CCW class. I put 7 guns on my permit one of which was my HK USPc in 40. I hadn't shot the gun in years. I qualified without any problems, after shooting it I remembered why it stays in the safe. It's the last gun I'd go to.

If you like them great but I'll stick with Glocks 1911's and revolvers.

hoss_hk
11-20-2010, 1:45 PM
M&P45. Compared to the Glock, the M&P

Way to hijack

sirgiles
11-20-2010, 2:23 PM
I know there not really in the same class but they are all high reliable weapons and that is what really matters right?

all 3 handguns are reliable. i would not hesitate to use any of them as my go to gun. fyi:on my glock 21sf i've broken my slide lock and sights which were fairly cheap to replace. on the hk ups expert i've replaced 4 factory mag springs for wolf and on the sig p220 ive replaced 2 mags because the feeding lips were deformed.

i think that the only reason why you see alot more reviews on glocks is because there are more owners of this affordable pistol.

whats your preference. is it the handgun weight? trigger? ergonomics? mag capacity? cost? all three have their pros and cons.