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Shady
07-19-2010, 12:31 PM
my uncle teaches point shooting in nevada

a few months ago I went out there and took one of his classes

I learned a HUGE amount about myself and how I would react
in a fight within 10 yards


I have ALOt more fun
shooting handguns at the range now too


but I know ALOT of people hate on point shooting

what are your thoughts?

Stockton
07-19-2010, 12:36 PM
That type of shooting has it's place and time. Good stuff for sure. The downside is collateral damage if ever any that could result. Center mass point and pull is definitely a great cqb technique. Very fast when executed properly.

freonr22
07-19-2010, 12:41 PM
like this?

As far as handguns go that is. I really don't see the point of trying to line up the sights on a pistol. In fact I would almost prefer them shaved off.

Think about it.

"BE the bullet"

If a gun is supposed to be an extension of you, get in the zone.

Generally it is short distance, and relying on lining up the sights takes away from natural focus in a heated situation.

Is there anyone else here that subscribes to this train of thought?


Anyways, thats my thought of the day.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=40653&d=1261171460
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=279167

cvc04
07-19-2010, 12:44 PM
short range= point shooting. As you said less than ten yards. If the BG is coming at you with a knife point shooting is gonna get it done.

mif_slim
07-19-2010, 12:52 PM
Its all about shooting from the hip. You seen "Rambo", "Commando", "Hot shot part deux"

kxYmEYBLgBE
gkqpcmqSVI0

you see, all hip shot.

well... this is point shooting actually. lol

DFGDv5jGBDw

BigDogatPlay
07-19-2010, 2:18 PM
When I was first breaking into law enforcement in the late 70's we were all taught the point shoulder, instinctive, method for close in encounters. I still have a copy of Bill Jordan's seminal book, 'No Second Place Winner' on my shelf which is largely based in the method.

It does work, it can be very accurate and is very, very fast. That said, it takes a lot of practice to be come truly proficient and stay that way. I still practice it once in a while when I shoot my revolvers and it comes very naturally.

Filing the sights off, as noted in the other thread came, IIRC, from Col. Rex Applegate's writings. I think it takes away from the overall utility of the defensive handgun to be able to deliver accurate aimed fire out to 50 or even 100 yards.

sammy
07-19-2010, 2:42 PM
I have not practiced it much but find I do it naturally at closer distances. The first time I noticed it was at a USPSA match where the targets were at about 5 yards or so. I completed the string and found I had not used the sights at all. I can see how in a HD shooting point shooting would be very useful.

j1133s
07-19-2010, 3:02 PM
my uncle teaches point shooting in nevada

a few months ago I went out there and took one of his classes

I learned a HUGE amount about myself and how I would react
in a fight within 10 yards


I have ALOt more fun
shooting handguns at the range now too


but I know ALOT of people hate on point shooting

what are your thoughts?

I point shoot (not using the sights) on target < 3 yds. Or at least I used to be able to.

After not much shooting for 3yrs, at a recent action pistol match I point shot a target _1_ yard away and completely missed it....

So I think point shooting only works when you do it often/practice often.

odysseus
07-19-2010, 3:05 PM
Neither of your options. One would not be served avoiding it, but making it your priority sounds a little strange. It also is a lot of fun, not just about tactical holster shooting or something. Point shooting is a skill you should know and practice as an all around firearms shooter, but it isn't the largest priority. Most people might be served just from trigger control drills. You know what I mean?

Shady
07-22-2010, 1:00 PM
Its all about shooting from the hip. You seen "Rambo", "Commando", "Hot shot part deux"

kxYmEYBLgBE
gkqpcmqSVI0

you see, all hip shot.

well... this is point shooting actually. lol

DFGDv5jGBDw

hahahah

usctrojan
07-22-2010, 1:15 PM
I always come up for my sights on all my guns. I practice repeatedly and frankly I don't think adding a sight picture in costs me but tenths of a second and guarantees my shot. I have done tons of drills from a holster; timed; against other shooters, etc.

I am fully liable for every bullet I shoot and I want to know where its going and the only way I can do that is to use my sights. Plus if I use my sights I am likely to only need to fire less shots because all my bullets will be where I want them (in the other guy).

Side note:
I might skip the sights if I had literally in the guys belly; but I'd rather not be that close.

Disclaimer... I am just an armchair athlete in the gun-fighting world and I hope to stay that way. I have trained with people who have been in multiple law enforcement (not civilian or military) gunfights and killed their opponent. While I do not envy them I don't see much point in not trusting the training they have given me.

HCz
07-22-2010, 6:18 PM
Neither of your options. One would not be served avoiding it, but making it your priority sounds a little strange. It also is a lot of fun, not just about tactical holster shooting or something. Point shooting is a skill you should know and practice as an all around firearms shooter, but it isn't the largest priority. Most people might be served just from trigger control drills. You know what I mean?

This nails it.

Deadbolt
07-22-2010, 11:15 PM
Its all about shooting from the hip. You seen "Rambo", "Commando", "Hot shot part deux"

kxYmEYBLgBE
gkqpcmqSVI0

you see, all hip shot.

well... this is point shooting actually. lol

DFGDv5jGBDw

this is why i wear a patch over one eye - not because i need to, but because i look kickass

Uriah02
07-22-2010, 11:33 PM
I would like to learn...

The Director
07-23-2010, 7:42 AM
I just qualified with point shooting for the PC832 firearms course. It's part of the curriculum now. You must put 12 rounds inside the 7 ring at 7 yards. Shoot 6, reload, then shoot another 6 within a 30 second time period.

I had never done this before - always looked at my sights. It seems hard at first....you want to bring that gun up just a bit higher so you can catch those sights.

After a few dozen rounds though, you get the uncanny ability to point the gun and just "know" where it's going to shoot....I found I could get all my shots within the 9 ring easily with this method, and that was from holster draw.

I'm going to practice this way more now. It definitely has it's place. I scored perfectly on that segment of the test. I'm sure anyone could with some basic instruction.

elsolo
07-24-2010, 2:03 AM
Well aimed shooting can degrade to point shooting rather easily under stress.
The opposite rarely occurs.

How much I need to confirm my aim absolutely depends on the target size, distance, and potential negatives of a missed shot.

Anything further than arm's distance requires some visual confirmation, be it as little as looking down the slide like one would a shotgun barrel, to maintaining equal amounts of daylight on both sides of the front sight as you slowly squeeze the trigger; usually it is somewhere in between.

Shooting IPSC or IDPA is a great way to show yourself how easy it is to miss an "easy" target at close range, as well as continually reinforce the need to aim every shot (to varying degrees) and prove that really is the fastest way to actually hit your target at anything more than arm's length away.

elsolo
07-24-2010, 2:47 AM
I just qualified with point shooting for the PC832 firearms course. It's part of the curriculum now. You must put 12 rounds inside the 7 ring at 7 yards. Shoot 6, reload, then shoot another 6 within a 30 second time period.

I had never done this before - always looked at my sights. It seems hard at first....you want to bring that gun up just a bit higher so you can catch those sights.

After a few dozen rounds though, you get the uncanny ability to point the gun and just "know" where it's going to shoot....I found I could get all my shots within the 9 ring easily with this method, and that was from holster draw.

I'm going to practice this way more now. It definitely has it's place. I scored perfectly on that segment of the test. I'm sure anyone could with some basic instruction.

How do they verify that you are not aiming?

Turbinator
07-24-2010, 7:38 AM
The fast shooters on Top Shot (JJ for example) appear to be using the sights. I guess it comes down to training and practice. I personally like verifying a sight picture with the sights. I would not personally shave the sights off my stuff.

Turby

PatriotnMore
07-24-2010, 7:47 AM
practice, practice, point shooting and muscle memory, good stuff.

The Director
07-24-2010, 7:47 AM
How do they verify that you are not aiming?

Pretty obvious by where the gun is - it's literally at my shoulder level and all you have to do is stand BESIDE me to see that I am not using sights. I thought the same thing of others when I stood behind them....I was certain they were using their sights. But the gun is 8-10" lower than it normally would be.

And this stuff works. Another tool in the arsenal. Also the other part of the qualification is one handed shooting from the hip, at 3 yards. 6 shots inside the seven ring, reload, six shots inside the seven ring. All mine were in the 9 ring.

You know what this is similar to? Something like Cowboy action shooting or something. Let's not forget there are a ton of GREAT shooters that do all kinds of gun tricks where the sights aren't used. Shooting from the hip is one of them.

None of this replaces shooting with sights, it gives me more options.

If I'm being rushed by an attacker 3 yards away, I feel confident I can draw right out of the holster and put 6 right in his center mass within a couple seconds. Ask me how I know!:D

The Director
07-24-2010, 7:50 AM
The fast shooters on Top Shot (JJ for example) appear to be using the sights. I guess it comes down to training and practice. I personally like verifying a sight picture with the sights. I would not personally shave the sights off my stuff.

Turby

No need to shave sights off for point shooting. Just another tool. Point and hip shooting is being taught in addition to sight shooting in police academies across the country. It's for when there is no time to establish a sight picture.

And for all those that swear that all you need is an extra second to get your sight picture, try shooting from 3 yards, draw from holster, 6 rounds, and try and do it in under 4 seconds, which is very generous. If a guy is charging you full steam ahead, 3 yards away, he is gonna be on you in MUCH less than 4 seconds.

Most cops should be able to draw and put one in center mass before the guy is on him. Very hard to learn at first but once you do it - wow. what a useful skill.

elsolo
07-24-2010, 6:13 PM
Pretty obvious by where the gun is - it's literally at my shoulder level and all you have to do is stand BESIDE me to see that I am not using sights. I thought the same thing of others when I stood behind them....I was certain they were using their sights. But the gun is 8-10" lower than it normally would be.

And this stuff works. Another tool in the arsenal. Also the other part of the qualification is one handed shooting from the hip, at 3 yards. 6 shots inside the seven ring, reload, six shots inside the seven ring. All mine were in the 9 ring.

You know what this is similar to? Something like Cowboy action shooting or something. Let's not forget there are a ton of GREAT shooters that do all kinds of gun tricks where the sights aren't used. Shooting from the hip is one of them.

None of this replaces shooting with sights, it gives me more options.

If I'm being rushed by an attacker 3 yards away, I feel confident I can draw right out of the holster and put 6 right in his center mass within a couple seconds. Ask me how I know!:D

Lowering the pistol 10" so you can't use the sights, and must visually confirm by seeing where the slide is pointed to shoot a target directly in front of you isn't really point shooting. The target is directly in front of you and at the same height as your pistol, you can visually confirm the windage and elevation is simply keeping the slide level.

With the target sizes and distances you mention, with a static target and shooting position, there really isn't much visual confirmation needed to hit the target.

You sound pretty jazzed about the courses of fire you had in the class and it obviously gave you confidence that your gun handling skills are quite adequate and well rounded. I highly recommend that you attend a local IDPA or IPSC match and continue to develop your skills.

The courses of fire for PC 832 are ridiculously easy and it's somewhat absurd that it constitutes proof of competant gunhandling for park rangers and animal control.

P.S. Great shooters don't do all sorts of tricks like shooting from the hip, Bob Munden and other entertainment exhibition shooters aren't winning world championships. Doing a parlor trick does not make somebody a great shooter.

elsolo
07-24-2010, 6:25 PM
And for all those that swear that all you need is an extra second to get your sight picture, try shooting from 3 yards, draw from holster, 6 rounds, and try and do it in under 4 seconds, which is very generous. .

The standard Bill Drill is nearly identical, except the target is 10 yards out, and a proficient shooter should be able to do it in 2 seconds while USING THE SIGHTS.

bruceflinch
07-24-2010, 6:45 PM
Just practicing point shooting is fun!