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View Full Version : 9mm vs 45 Accuracy


Donny1
07-18-2010, 11:26 PM
I went shooting with a friend Yesterday who has some fine guns. A Beretta 92 something 9mm and a Colt Mark IV. Don't ask me the details of what they are but both have had extensive work and are very smooth with nice trigger jobs. I don't own anything close and have no recent experience with these types of pistols so go easy on me.

I was wondering why I would do better with the 45. I would think the 9mm would be easier to control, I seemed to be pulling to the left, somewhat with both but more with the 9mm. As far as recoil there wasn't much difference.

Do these targets show I'm doing something wrong or do they look normal for the first time shooting them. They are at 25 ft.

The first pic is the 9mm

http://www.2020designs.com/target/9mm.jpg

The next is the 45

http://www.2020designs.com/target/45cal.jpg

SnWnMe
07-18-2010, 11:34 PM
Most handguns can put the contents of one mag into one hole @ 8 yards. You seem to be pulling the gun with your weak hand in anticipation of recoil and that is causing your group to open up.

Sinixstar
07-18-2010, 11:44 PM
First guesses would be trigger pull and differences in the ergonomics of the two.

The 92 is a DA/SA (Double Action if it's decocked, single-action after the first shot).
The Colt is a Single-Action only.

As such - the colt has a much crisper trigger with less travel.
The more travel you have in the trigger - the more likely you are to either pull the gun to the right, or push it to the left, as you pull the trigger. This is mostly a matter of how much finger you have on the trigger, and how precise your level of control.

Other possibility - is the amount of pressure your exerting on each hand. The beretta 92 feels like a bigger gun, which could cause you to tighten up more with your supporting hand. The Mark IV having a thinner single-stack grip - you probably feel like you can get a better grip with just your right hand, and aren't clamping down the left as much.

all of this assuming you're shooting right-handed.

Doesn't really say anything about the guns, the ammo, or even you - other than that they're different guns, and you don't have a lot of experience with it. Shoot 'em more, and you'll get a feel for what works and what doesn't.

eaglemike
07-18-2010, 11:45 PM
Too many variables. It's not the difference in accuracy capability of the respective cartridges. You can get a very accurate 9mm and less-so .45, or vice versa. One gun might fit your hand better, you might see the sights better, the ammunition might be better for that particular gun, you might get a little more relaxed as you get used to shooting, remember good technique, etc.

ETA: best way to get better? Practice, practice, practice.......

all the best,
Mike

Donny1
07-18-2010, 11:54 PM
In looking back I guess the 45 did fit my hand better. As far as trigger pull they both were about the same, 2-3 lbs.

BamBam-31
07-19-2010, 12:00 AM
It's not just the pull weight, it's the difference in design. The Beretta DA/SA has a pivoting trigger action, while the 1911 has a straight back pull. Might not sound like much, but it does make a difference.

AlliedArmory
07-19-2010, 12:00 AM
This should help

http://www.hsoi.com/resources/correction_chart.gif

Sinixstar
07-19-2010, 12:00 AM
In looking back I guess the 45 did fit my hand better. As far as trigger pull they both were about the same, 2-3 lbs.

It's not just the weight. It's the length that you have to pull the trigger back before it goes off.

With the colt - being single action only - there is no slack to the trigger. They're very crisp. Maybe a mm or two of travel and you're done.
With the beretta you have to pull the trigger back much further before the gun goes off. This is a basic function of the DA/SA concept. There's a lot more slack before the trigger engages.

It's when you start pulling the trigger on the DA/SA Beretta and you're taking up all that DA slack that things can get funny. The more slack there is the trigger, the more control you have to have over your movements.

23 Blast
07-19-2010, 6:33 AM
For shooting two unfamiliar guns, that isn't too shabby, as far as your shooting goes. I have a Colt XSE 1911 and a Beretta 92fs, and for the life of me, I can't shoot my Beretta worth a damn. My Colt, however, is my best-shooting auto, despite .45 obviously having heavier recoil than a 9mm. A lot has to do with your personal ergonomics. The feel of a 1911 versus the feel of a Beretta is considerably different. I imagine if I practiced a great deal with the Beretta, however, I'd become accustommed to it and eventually be able to shoot it better, but for some reason, the short trigger reach of the Beretta messes me up.

Call_me_Tom
07-19-2010, 7:08 AM
I carry a Beretta & shoot one in competition so I have a lot of practice with it. I also have a Colt 1911 which fits my hand better but I'm more accurate with the Beretta.

From looking at your target it appears that you are anticipating the shot. Practice makes perfect. No one can pick up a random gun & shoot it perfectly. You'll need to practice with it to become proficient. Even then, I'm a great shot with my personal Beretta but only good with my issued Beretta. Every gun is different even if they are the same make & model.

Ed_in_Sac
07-19-2010, 7:23 AM
Finger probably fits the 1911 better. Could be a combination of grip size and trigger geometry/weight. Good trigger discipline will solve the problem on the 9mm.

23 Blast
07-19-2010, 7:28 AM
I carry a Beretta & shoot one in competition so I have a lot of practice with it. I also have a Colt 1911 which fits my hand better but I'm more accurate with the Beretta.

From looking at your target it appears that you are anticipating the shot. Practice makes perfect. No one can pick up a random gun & shoot it perfectly. You'll need to practice with it to become proficient. Even then, I'm a great shot with my personal Beretta but only good with my issued Beretta. Every gun is different even if they are the same make & model.

I find this very interesting. Has your personal Beretta been altered or modified in any way compared to your issue gun? Or are they more or less both stock? See - I felt for a while that the Beretta I got (used) must be a lemon because I had always heard great things about their intrinsic accuracy. My CZ-75 has always been a wonderfully accurate pistol, but maybe that's due to it's superior (for me) ergonomics. Hmm.

Sinixstar
07-19-2010, 8:29 AM
I find this very interesting. Has your personal Beretta been altered or modified in any way compared to your issue gun? Or are they more or less both stock? See - I felt for a while that the Beretta I got (used) must be a lemon because I had always heard great things about their intrinsic accuracy. My CZ-75 has always been a wonderfully accurate pistol, but maybe that's due to it's superior (for me) ergonomics. Hmm.


'inherit accuracy' is somewhat of a myth. The best you can expect out of phrases like that, is that fired from a vice with consistent ammo and no human interaction whatsoever - it will be consistent.

That does not translate to an 'accurate' gun though. Accuracy is all about the shooter, personal skill level, and personal preferences.

Donny1
07-19-2010, 11:48 AM
Thanks for the input.

The 45 just all around felt better to me. As I said the recoil was not really any different and my buddy said that was because of about $700 work that was done to it. It was very smooth. But reading about the differences in the triggers make sense. I knew there was a difference but didn't know the mechanics of it. As far as "anticipating", I'm sure I was, but I can work on that. :D

All around a good learning experience. As far as finding something in a 9mm that has more of the feel of the 45, is there any makes/models anyone could suggest I try?

orangeusa
07-19-2010, 12:05 PM
I find this very interesting. Has your personal Beretta been altered or modified in any way compared to your issue gun? Or are they more or less both stock? See - I felt for a while that the Beretta I got (used) must be a lemon because I had always heard great things about their intrinsic accuracy. My CZ-75 has always been a wonderfully accurate pistol, but maybe that's due to it's superior (for me) ergonomics. Hmm.

I THINK a trigger job is the main difference from stock... But I could be wrong... Call_Me_Tom will answer about his setup...

And I'm similiar - I shoot my 92 quite well (for me at least - not near as accurate at speed, tho!! ), but it took me a LONG time to get as good as with a 1911. Trigger is everything. And 1911 has an advantage in the SA trigger. But you can improve trigger on a stock 92 quite a bit without much work... Surprisingly, I shoot quite well with my Ruger P90, and it's all stock... I dunno.

23 Blast - PM me if you want to shoot one of my 92's - OnTarget in Irvine??

OP - I agree - recoil on 9mm 92 vs. 1911 in .45 (to me) seems about the same. Try shooting a .40 cal.. it's a little different experience.. :)
Expect to pay up for a Springfield EMP 1911 in 9mm. But it shoots very nicely.... :)

You are confusing rounds with completely different guns btw. It's not 9mm vs. 45. It's comparing a $2k worked over 1911 with a stock 92 (a combat pistol) that has had no rework if I read your thread properly.

Donny1
07-19-2010, 12:13 PM
You are confusing rounds with completely different guns btw. It's not 9mm vs. 45. It's comparing a $2k worked over 1911 with a stock 92 (a combat pistol) that has had no rework if I read your thread properly.

No, they both have been "worked".

Call_me_Tom
07-20-2010, 7:45 PM
I find this very interesting. Has your personal Beretta been altered or modified in any way compared to your issue gun? Or are they more or less both stock? See - I felt for a while that the Beretta I got (used) must be a lemon because I had always heard great things about their intrinsic accuracy. My CZ-75 has always been a wonderfully accurate pistol, but maybe that's due to it's superior (for me) ergonomics. Hmm.
Good question. When I first purchased my 92 the trigger was very stiff & I could shoot my issued M9 better. I believe that NIB 92/M9's have stiffer springs & over time as the pistols break in the springs/trigger lighten up. So I did a little google'n & found that if I replaced the hammer spring for a lighter spring (D-spring or Wolff 16#) it would help with the trigger pull. I also went one step further & installed a Wolff RP trigger conversion unit (aka INS spring) & it turned the pistol into a weapon.

Also, ammo has a lot to factor into it. If I buy cheap 115gr I can shoot nice tight groups out to 15yds. After that the shots are all over the place. I found out that the 92 is rifled for the 124gr NATO round so when I shoot past 15yds I use 124gr ammo. So far I can double action 20rds into a 4" group at 25yds. In single action I can do better but I like to concentrate on my weak areas.

orangeusa
07-20-2010, 7:50 PM
I hope ammo will help me past 14 yards!! I'll have to try the INS spring, but believe it NEEDs a steel trigger. Kinda hard to find these days.. Brignoli has them tho.. for $$$ . Wonder if that explains why RWS works so well..

jlmurphy
07-20-2010, 8:45 PM
I have SA 1911's in both .45 and 9mm, both have match barrels and high end internals, and I do have a machine rest that I use to work up accurate loads. That being said, I found it much easier to find accurate loads for the .45. I do believe certain cartridges are more inherently accurate than others. Although the recoil from the 9mm is so mild, it makes the pistol a joy to shoot, and in some ways, practically more accurate.

eaglemike
07-20-2010, 9:15 PM
I've built some very accurate 9mm pistols. If you want one that is very easy to shoot well, and feels great, get a CZ or one of the Tanfoglio clones with a match barrel. Very few guns are as pleasant to shoot. There is not much that will out shoot a really good 1911. Proper grips to fit your hand and a good triger and sitghts make a huge difference. Either gun can be a 1.5" gun at 25 meters if everything is right. I've never seen a 92 do that, although I guess it's possible. I know that an X5 in 9mm can be a sub-2" gun at 25 meters, too.

I've used a red dot as a training aid in the past. It can really help with follow through and trigger control. Focus on the dot, make sure it holds still all the time....... People usually think the dot is shaking by itself - ha! It's much harder to see the shake when one is trying to line up sights.

Not matter which gun, focus on the front sight,* and keep it still/follow through, even while the gun is starting to recoil and cycle. It's amazing what a difference this can make. *assuming iron sights, if using a RDS, stay on the dot.

all the best,
Mike

xXBigJoeXx
07-20-2010, 11:23 PM
I love my Beretta 92FS INOX! Great gun, built to last with lots of history. Mine shot some very nice tight and consistant groups out of the box. I am currently waiting on my new solid steel guid rod to replace the plastic one that ships from the factory. Other then that I have no complaints :D

The Director
07-21-2010, 8:48 AM
Gun porn time!

Love my M9A1

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=62603&stc=1&d=1279727284

Call_me_Tom
07-30-2010, 2:55 PM
Just recieved my 92 back from the gunsmith & there is no difference in trigger pull, it just feels smoother. The gunsmith warned me of this as I had already changed out the springs which made the biggest difference in pull weight. Bang for buck, spend the $25 & swap out the hammer & trigger springs.

Call_me_Tom
07-30-2010, 4:01 PM
^^^oh, & I was referencing a trigger job I had the gunsmith perform.