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OliveCookieMonsta
07-18-2010, 8:26 PM
So when I first started training it was mostly with beginning ladies... And still I train weekly with mostly a couple ladies... However, this Saturday was my first day outside of my group of friends... I walked up to a group of men... About 9, lol, and our instructor was surprised I was a girl(my name), first thing he said was oh, for some reason I pictured a guy. My gf has a more girly name, so they expected one.

The class was great! I learned so much!!! The instructors were excellent! But today I wondered how the guys really felt, they seemed shocked at first to see us. Almost like we were intruding, might have just been my impression. I can understand being in an intermediate training and not wanting newbies in the class. Although I had a good time, I'm not sure if my next experience will be as fun without another girl for company.

Anyone else have a similar experience or advice?

Steyrlp10
07-19-2010, 11:40 AM
GF, IMHO you will only get better if you shoot against the best and for now, the "best" are predominantly men. Things change at the national level, but for us Average Janes, we're exposed to local ranges, right?

Before they changed the ladies' course in Air Pistol (remember, it's still an Olympic event!) I noticed that most gals opted to shoot the 40-shot course instead of the 60-shot course the men shot. What's with that? It was one of those things that I found to be weird and very unhelpful to me in getting better.

The only men who resent you on the line are the ones who have confidence issues. I've been very lucky to meet guys who are helpful and encouraging. If you follow all the safety rules like everyone else, I don't see what the problem is.

GunNutz
07-19-2010, 12:20 PM
I like shooting with women! For that matter, I like shooting with anyone who is safe.

9mmepiphany
07-19-2010, 1:01 PM
having run training classes with women students, the male reaction is rather interesting.

1. there are the guys who are threatened because they might be outshot by a woman...don't feel bad, they are afraid they'll be outshot by everyone there. it isn't actually that they are threatened by you, it is that they are threatened by being seen by outer men when they are outshot by a woman. they usually are the first ones to start blaming their equipment for their poor shooting. instructors have a special description for their shooting style, "they slap (their trigger) like a bi-otach"

2. there are the guys who feel it is their place to "look out" for the woman in the class. this is pretty funny when you see a woman "let" a guy show her how to load her mags...over and over again. these are the guys who say women should be in the military, because the male soldiers would have to protect them. they are very proud of themselves when the woman they helped starts "kicking their butt" in shooting...like they really did anything except act the fool

i've found that most women in classes, we've had classes where more than 1/3 were women, have a few interesting characteristics too:

1. learn better don't hang together on the line...they can bond during breaks for support

2. they don't ask enough questions when they don't understand something...even a good male instructor will lecture in the Male Communication style unless you asks questions. the Female Communication style isn't the default for most firearm instructors...it is their job to help you have a good time, but they need help to understand what isn't working for you

OliveCookieMonsta
07-19-2010, 8:13 PM
Thanks guys! And u know 9mm - I did leave my friend for the other team... Because there were too many in one squad and I think it was the BEST thing... And yes I asked a stupid question... Lol, I knew the answer to but I didn't quite understand the question... Difference in tactical, emergency reloads... I guess I'm not up on terms yet... But I'm getting there... I'm trying not to be so timid in a large group of men... But it can be a bit discouraging... Initially!!! I'll keep on trying and like u said GF train with ppl way better than me! ; ) learn and learn!

NorCalMama
07-19-2010, 8:19 PM
So when I first started training it was mostly with beginning ladies... And still I train weekly with mostly a couple ladies... However, this Saturday was my first day outside of my group of friends... I walked up to a group of men... About 9, lol, and our instructor was surprised I was a girl(my name), first thing he said was oh, for some reason I pictured a guy. My gf has a more girly name, so they expected one.

The class was great! I learned so much!!! The instructors were excellent! But today I wondered how the guys really felt, they seemed shocked at first to see us. Almost like we were intruding, might have just been my impression. I can understand being in an intermediate training and not wanting newbies in the class. Although I had a good time, I'm not sure if my next experience will be as fun without another girl for company.

Anyone else have a similar experience or advice?

Oh believe me, this will be your testimony ever time unless you specifically seek out female specific classes. For me, when I first started shooting and I would go to the range, and it was mostly males I was nervous and felt like I had to almost prove myself. Now, after having some lessons, practicing on my own, and having taken some courses I am confident enough that I could give a sh*t about what the boys think when I walk in as the ONLY female to a given shooting event. :D
Really, you do not notice it after a while to where it affects you. And if there are some idiot guys who feel like they have to get puffed up and bent out of shape cause you (a female!) are there, you show em what you can do and make em leave with their tail between their legs. Shooting is NOT for men only and really, you will hear ANY legit firearms instructor tell you that women easily shoot men under the table every time. We are easier to teach, pay closer attention to what is being taught, and I think we retain the lessons we learn better (we don't have a giant ego getting in the way).

lol, I'm NOT male bashing, I'm also NOT trying to sound like women are better than men or that we should walk around feeling all big and bad, I'm just letting you know my opinion.
Also, like someone else mentioned about shooting with safe people, +100000! Safety, confidence (not arrogance), being relaxed and having some lessons under your belt will be your best friend! :)

9mmepiphany
07-19-2010, 8:55 PM
But it can be a bit discouraging... Initially!!! I'll keep on trying and like u said GF train with ppl way better than me! ; ) learn and learn!

you have it nailed

i'm always look for shooter better than myself when i go to a class or event. part of learning is being able to understand what and why other people are doing something a different way. asking doesn't always help, because sometimes they don't know why they do it that way either. you have to evaluate your own strengths and weaknesses and then look for what might help you.

here's a hint, it comes from the bulls-eye community (maybe Steyrlp10 will comment), burn into your mind what the sights look like when your sight alignment is perfect...so you don't have to look at them when you're shooting, you just need to see them. it is similar to Kyudo practice and "no mind"

OliveCookieMonsta
07-19-2010, 9:17 PM
Kyudo practice... Never heard of but I just looked it up! Great way of thinking!!! Totally reminds me of matrix! Not a bad thing at all I'm gonna try it!

GunNutz
07-20-2010, 9:23 AM
you will hear ANY legit firearms instructor tell you that women easily shoot men under the table every time. We are easier to teach, pay closer attention to what is being taught, and I think we retain the lessons we learn better (we don't have a giant ego getting in the way).
:)


You sure about the not having a giant ego? :p

Steyrlp10
07-20-2010, 9:40 AM
Oh believe me, this will be your testimony ever time unless you specifically seek out female specific classes. For me, when I first started shooting and I would go to the range, and it was mostly males I was nervous and felt like I had to almost prove myself. Now, after having some lessons, practicing on my own, and having taken some courses I am confident enough that I could give a sh*t about what the boys think when I walk in as the ONLY female to a given shooting event. :D
Really, you do not notice it after a while to where it affects you. And if there are some idiot guys who feel like they have to get puffed up and bent out of shape cause you (a female!) are there, you show em what you can do and make em leave with their tail between their legs. Shooting is NOT for men only and really, you will hear ANY legit firearms instructor tell you that women easily shoot men under the table every time. We are easier to teach, pay closer attention to what is being taught, and I think we retain the lessons we learn better (we don't have a giant ego getting in the way).

lol, I'm NOT male bashing, I'm also NOT trying to sound like women are better than men or that we should walk around feeling all big and bad, I'm just letting you know my opinion.
Also, like someone else mentioned about shooting with safe people, +100000! Safety, confidence (not arrogance), being relaxed and having some lessons under your belt will be your best friend! :)

I always thought we smelled better too ;)

Steyrlp10
07-20-2010, 9:42 AM
you have it nailed

i'm always look for shooter better than myself when i go to a class or event. part of learning is being able to understand what and why other people are doing something a different way. asking doesn't always help, because sometimes they don't know why they do it that way either. you have to evaluate your own strengths and weaknesses and then look for what might help you.

here's a hint, it comes from the bulls-eye community (maybe Steyrlp10 will comment), burn into your mind what the sights look like when your sight alignment is perfect...so you don't have to look at them when you're shooting, you just need to see them. it is similar to Kyudo practice and "no mind"

Ah yes, that pesky front sight :)

Maybe we should all having exploding targets like in Top Shot - lol!

rattletrap1970
07-20-2010, 9:47 AM
You sure about the not having a giant ego? :p

Actually.. I've heard that also. But the statement was funny.

9mmepiphany
07-20-2010, 12:43 PM
having trained 100s of men and women, i have to agree that women are easier to train to a higher level than men...plus they do usually smell better

women who i have seen having problems shooting are folks who received instruction from someone who couldn't explain the why of what they were trying to teach...they can only teach the how. they can't teach it, because they don't really understand it

tacticalcity
07-20-2010, 1:28 PM
I've taken lots of classes with women in them. Other than the novelty at first, there is nothing to it. They usually just as well the men. The only exception being when either their department or boyfriend/husband twisted talked them into taking a course they had no interest in. The same could be said for the male officers who's departments send them to receive more training due to an unwillingness to master their firearms. That can get annoying, since the class slows way down and it is obvious they have no interest in learning anything. However, when someone slows down a course but is making every effort then I and others view it as an opportunity to further perfect the subject matter. So there is no need to be nervious. Take courses appropriate to your current skill level, and all will be well. Sexism has no place in a gunfight, or in training to survive/prevail in one. I have never seen it during any of the firearms courses I've taken.

OliveCookieMonsta
07-20-2010, 9:18 PM
First to say... I've never been cohorsed to taken a class... It's all at my own will lol... But ur right ... Often I wonder if I'm good enuf for the class. But afterwards I know I learned something new and I appreciate all classes from beginning fundamentals to the imtermidate ones I've taken... No advance classes yet... Just bc I haven't seen any

Purple K
07-20-2010, 9:30 PM
I always thought we smelled better too ;)

:eek::eek::eek:

Sheepdog1968
07-20-2010, 9:50 PM
I've taken a fair number of classes. Some have women in them, some don't. There is a bit less colorfull language but otherwise I don't notice much of a difference. To be perfectly honest, I am usually busy enough keeping focused on doing my own thing and pushing myself where I don't notice how others (man or woman) are doing.

My significant other has taken all girl classes that have both a female and male instructor. She finds that male instructors tend to be a bit more delicate, timid with the women than the women instructors are.

9mmepiphany
07-21-2010, 9:20 AM
if you're interested, here's there is class i highly recommend coming to the Merced area. it was is posted in the Training Section, but i thought i'd give you a heads up.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=322253

this class is taught by Bruce Gray, 3 time Grand Master in NRA Action Pistol, USPSA/IPSC and IDPA, will make you a better shooter and give you the drills and basic understanding of shooting to continually improve on your own. assuming nothing comes up, i may drive down for this class to meet some CalGunners

info about the class and course
www.grayguns.com

NorCalMama
07-21-2010, 9:25 AM
You sure about the not having a giant ego? :p

lol, there is a difference between being arrogant and confident. :D

Steyrlp10
07-21-2010, 10:26 AM
if you're interested, here's there is class i highly recommend coming to the Merced area. it was is supposed to be posted in the Training Section, but i thought i'd give you a heads up.

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=674608412&f=451105858&m=4660016712&r=9730090812#9730090812

this class is taught by Bruce Gray, 3 time Grand Master in NRA Action Pistol, USPSA/IPSC and IDPA, will make you a better shooter and give you the drills and basic understanding of shooting to continually improve on your own. assuming nothing comes up, i may drive down for this class to meet some CalGunners

info about the class and course
www.grayguns.com

Bruce Gray sounds like he should be on next season's Top Shot :)

Mute
07-21-2010, 11:09 AM
Every training class I've taken or conducted that had women attendees went just a smooth and normal as any that didn't have women students. No one acted any differently at any time.

winnre
07-21-2010, 11:18 AM
Attitude is everything. Guys who act like "I have the biggest gun here and I watched Pulp Fiction 72 times so I am the biggest baddest dude here" and women who act like "I'm a hot babe so all the guys will do everything for me and I can even get free ammo"... well nuts! I get out of their range all the time. No thank you.

Be intelligent, cordial, drama free, and have a good attitude and I'll shoot with you any day.

tacticalcity
07-21-2010, 11:36 AM
In response to the post above, I've never run into either personality type during a course, and I've taken my fair share of courses. Yes, you see them at the firing range every now and again but even that is rare. They don't seem to be the type to spend the necessary time or money on a training course. The guy with the big ego thinks he knows everything already and does not need the course, and the princess would have a hard time finding a prince willing to pay for her course and probably would much rather spend her free time doing something else.

The majority of people at the courses want to be there and are dedicated to learning. A small amount of people are talked into taking the course, or forced to take the course by their department, and in both cases they usually refuse to embrace the experience and ruin it not only for themselves but others. That is EXTREMELY rare and has very little to do with gender and everything to do with mindset.

My point being, I am more than happy to take a class with women. What straight man wants to hang out with men all day anyway? No thanks.

Sacramento/Northern California residents should checkout Stone Cobra Tactical www.stonecobratactical.com for courses. Very affordable, and excellent training. Men and women will feel more than comfortable in all their courses.

Aldemar
07-21-2010, 11:44 AM
Ideally, you should be concentrating on the targets and the instructor(s). Whomever is next to on the line should not matter one bit.

That said, there is usually at least one guy in every training class I've attended that designates himself as the protector of the female(s). Said protector is usually the worst shot in the class and very soon resigns such position when he realizes the gals are a better shot than he is.

Once, in a level 2 class, one stud decided he was going to show a gal how it's done. During warmup, his target looked like we were in a shotgun class; she proceeded to keep everything in the 10 ring, turned to him and said "Not Too Bad For A Girl, Huh". He stayed away from her from then on. It was priceless.

Steyrlp10
07-21-2010, 11:45 AM
Yep, committment is something a person has to have to want to improve in this type of sport.

Some of my female friends find that concept difficult to understand. They prefer to plink, which is fine, but they think I'm crazy filling my calendar with pistol matches and fishing tournaments. All I can say is that I'm blowing dough on ammo and hinting to my other half that a nice 1911 is still cheaper than buying him a saltwater boat :)

Of course, it's cute that my kid likes to tell his classmates that their moms are dull while his mom gets to blow up stuff - lol

9mmepiphany
07-21-2010, 12:44 PM
Bruce Gray sounds like he should be on next season's Top Shot :)

i think so too, but i don't know if they can spare him out of the shop for a month of filming.

i've trained with Chris on the Blue team and i'm giving it some serious thought

Steyrlp10
07-21-2010, 12:59 PM
i think so too, but i don't know if they can spare him out of the shop for a month of filming.

i've trained with Chris on the Blue team and i'm giving it some serious thought

Just remember not to get caught in the blame game of it being a lousy gun with lousy sights - lol

I must agree with the other posters about Cody though... I wish he would be quiet so I can watch the dang show! :) (Very much like poker -- quit talking!!!)

tacticalcity
07-21-2010, 3:06 PM
Ideally, you should be concentrating on the targets and the instructor(s). Whomever is next to on the line should not matter one bit.

That said, there is usually at least one guy in every training class I've attended that designates himself as the protector of the female(s). Said protector is usually the worst shot in the class and very soon resigns such position when he realizes the gals are a better shot than he is.

Once, in a level 2 class, one stud decided he was going to show a gal how it's done. During warmup, his target looked like we were in a shotgun class; she proceeded to keep everything in the 10 ring, turned to him and said "Not Too Bad For A Girl, Huh". He stayed away from her from then on. It was priceless.

I have not seen that, but I can picture it happening. Especially with younger or more immature men. I would think it too would be rare.

More often than not I see a lot of people helping out their neighbors on the range. I always make buddies with the people on either side of me, and then some. I need to trust them, and they need to trust me. Most courses have some degree of teamwork involved. I learn as much for the shooters next to me as I do the instructors. During the drill, I focus on my front sight. After the drill I focus on my target and evaluating what I just did during the drill. However, if somebody next to me is struggling and I am not, I am not above trying to sit out a drill in order to watch what they doing to see if I can spot the problem. The instructors have a lot on their hands, and can't catch every single mistake we make...and we all make mistakes. I've always appreciated it when a better shooter helps me improve my game as well.

In any case, I'm really glad to see this many people taking training courses. It is so critical to being a safe and responsible gun owner.

Sajedene
07-21-2010, 6:54 PM
Interesting read. So far all my experience shooting with guys have been great. They have all been nice and respectful and don't baby me which is wonderful (did I mention they have all been from Calguns? :D )

mkfromnm
07-21-2010, 7:12 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen, or should I say Women and Men?

I used to own a glock 19. I thought that thing was a real POS. When i let my girl shoot it she shamed me. Women can shoot. i am surprised this is an issue here.

Sometimes i think people can be too sensitive.

Funny, i never feel too senstive when:

A person i have met wants to go shooting with me.
A person I have met out shoots me.
A person I have met is female.

Interesting thread. Hope I did not screw up posting here. Let us shoot!

9mmepiphany
07-21-2010, 10:22 PM
Interesting read. So far all my experience shooting with guys have been great. They have all been nice and respectful and don't baby me which is wonderful (did I mention they have all been from Calguns? :D )

i think you'll find shooting among guys you know and know each other is a much different experience than shooting in a class with a bunch of folks you don't know...there is a whole different feel to it. but i will admit, having met a couple of the guys you shoot with in a class, that they really might be the exception to the rule

Steyrlp10
07-23-2010, 11:11 AM
Interesting read. So far all my experience shooting with guys have been great. They have all been nice and respectful and don't baby me which is wonderful (did I mention they have all been from Calguns? :D )

Calgunners do make cool friends :)