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metalhead357
04-17-2006, 8:32 PM
Ok, I've got a ponderment for the legal gurus.......real, imagined, or armchair all welcomed.


Been reading up some on AR 7.62x39 uppers; a lot of sites are claiming the 10 round "standard" AR 5.56 mag will hold 2 or 3 rounds......

If one was to use a 7.62 x 39 upper but a ("standard" AR) 30 round (yes....legally owned before the ban:cool: ) in a FIXED MAG configuration that could/would hold.....say 9 rounds (if a 10 rd hold 3 7.62~ then a 30 might hold 9 7.62) ... We got any here that can argue this would be legal? My mind is leapfroggin' on itself over what DOJ and/or them 58 DA's would say or do:confused:

PonyFiveO
04-17-2006, 8:40 PM
I believe you can use these 10 round 7.62x39 AR mags for that specific purpose...

http://www.dpmsinc.com/10Browse.asp?catID=1289

http://www.arizonagunrunners.com/cgi-bin/cart.pl?db|mwgarms.dat|MWG+AR-15+Magazines

http://www.gunsstore.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=47153547

blkA4alb
04-17-2006, 8:46 PM
if you fix a standard AR 30 round magazine in, regardless of the fact that it only holds 9 7.62, it can still hold 30 5.56. therefor being illegal. you have to either attach a standard 10 round mag and just shove as many 7.62 in as you can or get a dedicated 7.62 magazine for it. the prosecutor could take your gun with the fixed mag and go 1, 2, 3, 4, 5...30..

Guns R Tools
04-17-2006, 8:58 PM
Well, if one owns 458 socom upper and 30 rds mag legally, I don't see why these two items cannot be mated together, fixed mag of course. Since 30 rds mag will hold only 10rds of 458 socom rounds. DA can try putting more than 10 rds of 458 socom but I doubt the DA will succesful.

azndmd
04-17-2006, 9:10 PM
if you fix a standard AR 30 round magazine in, regardless of the fact that it only holds 9 7.62, it can still hold 30 5.56. therefor being illegal. you have to either attach a standard 10 round mag and just shove as many 7.62 in as you can or get a dedicated 7.62 magazine for it. the prosecutor could take your gun with the fixed mag and go 1, 2, 3, 4, 5...30..


But the upper is for a 7.62x39...and all those 5.56 wouldn't chamber nor fire with the 7.62x39 upper..right?:confused:

PIRATE14
04-17-2006, 9:10 PM
Well this is a good point...........

It's true you could put 30 rds of 223 but it won't work in the 7.62 or 458 upper.........probably would be safer if you marked the mag w/ the CALIBRE.

shopkeep
04-17-2006, 9:21 PM
Well this is a good point...........

It's true you could put 30 rds of 223 but it won't work in the 7.62 or 458 upper.........probably would be safer if you marked the mag w/ the CALIBRE.

Personally I would just fix in a mag that was specifically designed for that particular round and specifically designed with a capacity of 10.

If the DA decides you're wrong and tries to prosecute you could end up spending as much as $10,000 for your effort to save a couple buck by pinning a pre-ban 30 rounder. WOW, that's an expensive mag!

PIRATE14
04-17-2006, 9:23 PM
Never hurts to be on the safer side of things.......

ohsmily
04-17-2006, 9:29 PM
ask yourself this question...can you currently import a 30 round magazine into the state just because you are only going to use it as a 10 rounder for your 458 or other caliber? I don't think so...Fixing one of those in place is more than asking for trouble (if you were to be caught or subjected to scrutiny).

blkA4alb
04-17-2006, 10:03 PM
think about it, all the DA would have to do is show how easy it would to put a 5.56 upper on, remove 2 pins. and if you didnt have the upper on it would you feel comforitable attaching the 30 round permanantly with a pistol grip and stock? that right there is illegal, the upper does not matter imo. it was designed to take 30 and it still does.

CALI-gula
04-17-2006, 10:31 PM
think about it, all the DA would have to do is show how easy it would to put a 5.56 upper on, remove 2 pins. and if you didnt have the upper on it would you feel comforitable attaching the 30 round permanantly with a pistol grip and stock? that right there is illegal, the upper does not matter imo. it was designed to take 30 and it still does.

I concur on this; the idea is logical, but only for a gun where the receiver is dedicated to the selected chambering and the upper is not readily swapped to utilize the original magazines intended caliber; and the only possible real-world application on a dedicated receiver is something with a swing-out magazine, somewhat like on an SKS or a Barrett M82-CA . For example, a 20 round non-detachable swing-out magazine on an SKS in 7.62X39 is illegal, but if the gun were converted to ??? larger caliber (.458 SOCOM? .50 Beowulf? .50AE?), and the 20 round mag then only holds 10 of ??? caliber.... I think you would be OK.

dawson8r
04-17-2006, 10:53 PM
Is there such a thing as a "dedicated" 10rd magazine for the .458? IMO, if the industry standard for this caliber is the 30rd 5.56 magazine then one could argue that it is legal if pinned and you have the .458 upper. As suggested elsewhere, it would be great if someone manufactured magazines that were marked "Cal .458" then I think it would be hard to prove a violation of the law.

metalhead357
04-17-2006, 11:00 PM
Well thank you all~ I feel less schizophrenic now:) My mind raced over several of the arguments here but the last two are now really sticking with me. I do think the AR's versitility in this regard lends itself to NOT allowing the 30 rounder (wanna be 9 or 10 rd x39) since its *possible* dual-use is working against it. And the earlier argument of whether or not a 'current' production 30 rounder could/would be allowed in state~ me thinks not!

But now, no sooner than I tell myself that then I come up with---

HEY- I call dibbs! NEW MARKET for somebody out there- I just want the royalties! SOMEBODY needs to make a 'dedicated' and marked floor plate replacement and a 'dedicated' replacement follower as conversion units from a 5.56 to a x39 for the standard AR body!

It just bugs me....everything I read about the x39 uppers is always coming back down to the fact that everybody around the net (at least in what I'm seeing) says the "stock" x39 mags are complete crap. I REALLY wanna x39 upper!!!!!!!!! So I goes to 'thinking outside the box' and feel as if I've opened pandora's box............ "dual use" mags vs. conversion to a 'dedicated' mag:cool:

I need a new hobby! All this lower madness, DOJ maddness, and "what if I...." and "Would it be legal if...." type stuff is gonna drive me to drink!!!!!!!!

Metalhead

bu-bye
04-17-2006, 11:16 PM
I don't think you will be able to even get 9 in a 223 mag. The shape of the 7.62X39 round is very different then a 223. I think if you put more the 3-4 in a mag built for 223 it will jam. Legal or not I don't think it will work and that is why they have special mags built for the 7.62x39 round.

metalhead357
04-17-2006, 11:34 PM
I don't think you will be able to even get 9 in a 223 mag. The shape of the 7.62X39 round is very different then a 223. I think if you put more the 3-4 in a mag built for 223 it will jam. Legal or not I don't think it will work and that is why they have special mags built for the 7.62x39 round.

That was my intial thought too with the 'taper' to the round....but thats what I'm seeing out there in net-land; peeps are claiming that they can be used~ most only holding 2 or 3....some somehow jamming 4 in there:rolleyes: but THAT times 3 (X3) would undoubtedly putcha' past that magical 10 round limit that all makes us so safe & feel all warm and fuzzy inside:cool:

ANYBODY here try one of the 'stock' 10 rounders specifically made for the x39's?????? I'm open to experiences good or bad. Want the upper so bad I could scream but dont wanna 'dog' if'n the mags just wont hold up.

CALI-gula
04-17-2006, 11:42 PM
I don't think you will be able to even get 9 in a 223 mag. The shape of the 7.62X39 round is very different then a 223. I think if you put more the 3-4 in a mag built for 223 it will jam. Legal or not I don't think it will work and that is why they have special mags built for the 7.62x39 round.

Definitely. Any 7.62X39 magazine over 5 rounds has a noticeable curve; even the swing-out SKS mags have the "beginning" of a curve. The reason the .458 SOCOM cartridges stack so nicely in single stack formation in the standard USGI .223 mags, is because the case is fat front to back; the shoulder is nominal so there is no curve created to them when stacked.

However, I would be willing to bet that no matter what you do to the follower or walls for a magazine to hold 10 of .458 SOCOM, you could still stack some 15 or more .223 and have the gun function properly if you changed the upper; which could get you in trouble - the reason I mentioned a dedicated receiver that can not be easily disassembled and swapped in order that the fixed magazine could be utilized as attached to load more than 10 rounds of something else and shoot out of the same receiver. Thus the quagmire of a mulit-caliber rifle!!

Has anyone ever tinkered with making a .50AE or .458 SOCOM SKS? If Ruger can make their .44MAG carbine work, someone should be able to make a .50AE SKS work. You would be the Tony Rumore of SKSes!!

.

ohsmily
04-18-2006, 8:49 AM
However, I would be willing to bet that no matter what you do to the follower or walls for a magazine to hold 10 of .458 SOCOM, you could still stack some 15 or more .223 and have the gun function properly if you changed the upper; which could get you in trouble - the reason I mentioned a dedicated receiver that can not be easily disassembled and swapped in order that the fixed magazine could be utilized as attached to load more than 10 rounds of something else and shoot out of the same receiver. Thus the quagmire of a mulit-caliber rifle!!
.

I disagree...If someone marketed a dedicated 458 mag that was somehow different (internally or otherwise) than a .223 full capacity magazine, then I believe that even if you could get .223 rounds in there to work to a degree, I still think the mag would be legal...
analogy...Glock 9mm and 40SW mags fit in the same magazine wells. You CAN get 9mm rounds into a 40SW magazine and CAN get it to function OK in a 9mm gun. The 40 magazine isn't designed to hold 9mm, but it does and whats more, a 10 round 40 SW mag holds more than 10 9mm rounds. It is ILLEGAL to use a magazine for this purpose, however. Similarly, if there were a 458 mag designed for 458 (that differed from 223 mags, perhaps in the follower or some other way), then I think you could import one if it only held 10 or less 458 rounds. It would simply be illegal to use it as .223 magazine for the purpose of holding more than the requisite 10 rounds.

PIRATE14
04-18-2006, 10:49 AM
That was my intial thought too with the 'taper' to the round....but thats what I'm seeing out there in net-land; peeps are claiming that they can be used~ most only holding 2 or 3....some somehow jamming 4 in there:rolleyes: but THAT times 3 (X3) would undoubtedly putcha' past that magical 10 round limit that all makes us so safe & feel all warm and fuzzy inside:cool:

ANYBODY here try one of the 'stock' 10 rounders specifically made for the x39's?????? I'm open to experiences good or bad. Want the upper so bad I could scream but dont wanna 'dog' if'n the mags just wont hold up.

I think COLT did make a POSTBAN 9 rd mag for the X39.....might be hard to find though.

PIRATE14
04-18-2006, 10:56 AM
think about it, all the DA would have to do is show how easy it would to put a 5.56 upper on, remove 2 pins. and if you didnt have the upper on it would you feel comforitable attaching the 30 round permanantly with a pistol grip and stock? that right there is illegal, the upper does not matter imo. it was designed to take 30 and it still does.

You have to get around the issue of intent in court vs conspiracy.....

Every AR-15 can be made fully auto w/ the right parts and know how in a matter of minutes.....however it's not our intent to violate the law by owning AR style rifles just like a fixed vs detachable debate. YOU have no intent of building AW with your stripped rcvrs.

Don't try and read too much into it....but we are fighting for your gun rights here and now......

grammaton76
04-18-2006, 4:48 PM
If you really wanna go x39... get on the backorder list for the MGI lower, and use AK mags. They're made for 7.62x39mm, and 10rd AK mags are readily available if you really want to pin it.

But I think for SOCOM, I'd feel MOST comfortable in a gripless configuration. When you're gripless, it doesn't matter, legally, whether you can feed 10 rounds or 30 through the mag.

C.G.
04-18-2006, 4:52 PM
If you really wanna go x39... get on the backorder list for the MGI lower, and use AK mags. They're made for 7.62x39mm, and 10rd AK mags are readily available if you really want to pin it.

But I think for SOCOM, I'd feel MOST comfortable in a gripless configuration. When you're gripless, it doesn't matter, legally, whether you can feed 10 rounds or 30 through the mag.

I wouldn't want to shoot my .50 Beowulf gripless, too much of a kick and I am sure that the .458 Socom is about the same.

grammaton76
04-18-2006, 5:24 PM
I wouldn't want to shoot my .50 Beowulf gripless, too much of a kick and I am sure that the .458 Socom is about the same.

I meant legal comfort, not personal comfort. :)

One of these days, I'm hoping I'll get a chance to shoot one of those things. Right now, the only things I've fired out of an AR have been 22LR and 223/5.56mm. Oh wait, I did get to shoot a friend's registered 9mm AR once with Uzi mags. That was fun.

CALI-gula
04-18-2006, 5:41 PM
...analogy...Glock 9mm and 40SW mags fit in the same magazine wells. You CAN get 9mm rounds into a 40SW magazine and CAN get it to function OK in a 9mm gun. The 40 magazine isn't designed to hold 9mm, but it does and whats more, a 10 round 40 SW mag holds more than 10 9mm rounds. It is ILLEGAL to use a magazine for this purpose, however. Similarly, if there were a 458 mag designed for 458 (that differed from 223 mags, perhaps in the follower or some other way), then I think you could import one if it only held 10 or less 458 rounds. It would simply be illegal to use it as .223 magazine for the purpose of holding more than the requisite 10 rounds.

Keep in mind, mostly we are talking about an AR rifle where a detachable magazine is illegal and limited to 10 rounds because it is post SB-23. Yet changing the upper to a different caliber might make the mag a higher capacity.

The Glock comparison is not quite the same, as the gun is not limited to 10 rounds if you legally owned the 10-plus magazines (non-LEO marked) prior to SB23.

I often use cheap Triple-K 30 Round Ruger pistol magazines in my Ruger PC40 (.40 S&W) and they function flawlessly, holding just several rounds less than the 9mm - all I had to do was modify the feed lips. Yet, I had these well before SB23 ban.

I have a .458 SOCOM Upper susing a drilled-out M60 flash-hider built by Marty Ter Weem at Teppo Jutsu and about 500 rounds of brass, about 50 cartridges of .458 SOCOM. From my tangible observation and experience with the round, there really is no plausible way to make a mag the would be exclusive to the .458 SOCOM for 10 rounds without also loading .223 to more than 10 rounds. A flat follower or thicker mag-walls would still allow for double stacking of .223. The .458 single stacks in the USGI mag without any modification as it is. The only luck is to use the ten round .223 mags. Bummer.

I suppose you could do a ten round .50AE mag, for the .50AE uppers, and the .223 won't fit - in that situation, the .50AE mags are specially built, because the .50AE is slightly shorter, so there is a spacer in the mag to make up the difference.

But if anyone can come up with something to make a .458 10-rounder that excludes .223, I am all ears!! Currently, I simply use my 20 round mags for .458 SOCOM in my pre-SB23 AR's.

.

metalhead357
04-18-2006, 6:48 PM
:) Who needs a "dream team" when I got all you guys? LOL! I love it!

Gram~ thank you for the mention of the Colt....THAT was something I was still having trouble with as many just kept saying "There Wuzzzzz A BRAND out there that once was..." and then never proceed to mention it........

I will admit I love the intent argument- but can see a DA trying anyway; and I can say, for the record- My only intent is to STAY THE H*%L outta jail and not end up as Bubba's play-thang':eek:

Gonna put this on "simmer" yet again.......... I want one sooooo bad but this mag issue has just got me bent:cool:

grammaton76
04-18-2006, 6:56 PM
Gram~ thank you for the mention of the Colt....THAT was something I was still having trouble with as many just kept saying "There Wuzzzzz A BRAND out there that once was..." and then never proceed to mention it........

Sorry, wasn't me - that was pirate14. Don't wanna take someone else's credit. :)

metalhead357
04-18-2006, 7:44 PM
Thanks Gram, Sorry Gram...Thanks Pirate, sorry pirate:(

artherd
04-18-2006, 10:45 PM
Guys, as long as you don't have a .223 upper on there, you're legal.

Think about it, how many rounds of 5.7x28mm or .20 Tactical can a 10-round .223 mag hold?

This is no different. The eyes of the law do not discriminate because one round is 'popular'.