Put up or shut-up...

[MaceWindu]

...okay boys n girls. Lets quit talking about coooool carbines, rifles, etc and learn how to use them.

Everybody talks about what they would do in a given situation? Really? You will drop $1.5k on a cool gun but not $200-$400 to learn how to use it? Huh? :rolleyes:

Join me here:
http://www.tacticalresponse.com/training/schedule.php
June 23 - 24 Fighting Rifle San Jose, CA

We'll see how many Calgunners actually show up to train and not type.:rolleyes:

See you there, or not.

Mace

[Fjold]

Well, I bought and built my off list for varmint shooting. If I thought that I'd ever get charged by hordes of screaming saber-toothed ground squirrels I might consider such a course.

I'll probably just wait until I see the Crows start organizing an air force and the Coyotes doing the reconnaisance for the invasion of killer rodents.

[MaceWindu]

Well, I bought and built my off list for varmint shooting. If I thought that I'd ever get charged by hordes of screaming saber-toothed ground squirrels I might consider such a course.

That is the exact attitude of most anti-gunners...also, learning to become more proficient with your firearm(s) is a must.

actually show up to train and not type.

Mace

[QuickOnTheDraw]

...okay boys n girls. Lets quit talking about coooool carbines, rifles, etc and learn how to use them.

Everybody talks about what they would do in a given situation? Really? You will drop $1.5k on a cool gun but not $200-$400 to learn how to use it? Huh? :rolleyes:

Join me here:
http://www.tacticalresponse.com/training/schedule.php
June 23 - 24 Fighting Rifle San Jose, CA

We'll see how many Calgunners actually show up to train and not type.:rolleyes:

See you there, or not.

Mace
Thanks for the invite, but I already have tactical training, and continue to practice and drill ever since. You might want to tell people how much it really costs! After paying for ammo, food, hotel, you're probably going to be in the $700.00 to $800.00 range, or more. Good luck and have fun and post on how you thought it was?

[CowtownBallin]

All I ever need to know about war I learned from "Navy SEALs" with Charlie Sheen :D ahahahaha

[WokMaster1]

Course Equipment List:

- 1500 rounds rifle and 500 rounds pistol ammo All ammo MUST be factory loaded!
- Minimum of three magazines for each weapon

- Magazine pouch for each

Not to put anyone down but shouldn't this course be altered so we Kalifornians can break open our ars action to reload? 1500 rifle rounds 150 times of opening up the action.

Minimum of three ar magazines & the magazine pouch is totally out of the question.

Quote: You will drop $1.5k on a cool gun
Of course we are talking about ARs here. I am definitely interested in getting training but some clarification would help. And I am not going to travel out of state.......

[HillBilly]

The course looks like something I would be interested in...but it seems useless until the lowers are listed. Tactical training with fixed mags or no grips?

Am I missing something?:confused:

[stevie]

Mace

See you on May 20

Regards
Steve

[MaceWindu]

I already have tactical training

Perishable skill...


Of course we are talking about ARs here.

Nope, I run a modified M1A Bush...LOP shortened, Arms #18 mount, Larue Mount, Aimpont CompM2...

After paying for ammo, food, hotel, you're probably going to be in the $700.00 to $800.00 range, or more...

How much is your life worth? Your kids, wife?

I look for every opportunity to train, while others look for every opportunity not to.

Mace

[MaceWindu]

The course looks like something I would be interested in...but it seems useless until the lowers are listed. Tactical training with fixed mags or no grips?

Am I missing something?:confused:

Yes, USE A DIFFERENT CARBINE. Also, they have AR's to rent. Being from out of state they can bring them here to train :D

Mace

[QuickOnTheDraw]

Macewindu,
I see you like to take things out of context and use them to and make Your point. Like I said, I have tactical training and continue to practice and drill, and doing so is not perishable! Next time you quote someone use the whole quote, instead you half quote and add remarks to better yourself and your perspective. As for the price, be up front with people! Did you actually think this class was going to cost you around $200.00 to $400.00 ? I'm all for training but this isn't the only way, just an option!

[MaceWindu]

Macewindu,
I see you like to take things out of context and use them to and make Your point. Like I said, I have tactical training and continue to practice and drill, and doing so is not perishable! Next time you quote someone use the whole quote, instead you half quote and add remarks to better yourself and your perspective. As for the price, be up front with people! Did you actually think this class was going to cost you around $200.00 to $400.00 ? I'm all for training but this isn't the only way, just an option!

... I will not split hairs...okay, you win. There.

Now, put up or shut up. Sign up or don't. I make NO MONEY from this.

Mace

[drawn]

And for you southerners or Sacramento area dwellers, May I suggest,
http://www.tftt.com/

[Pouchey]

That is the exact attitude of most anti-gunners...also, learning to become more proficient with your firearm(s) is a must.



Mace

I was kind of lost on that one.

[Snuffalofogus]

How much is your life worth? Your kids, wife?

I look for every opportunity to train, while others look for every opportunity not to.

Mace

you looking to fend off a seige against your house?

[phish]

I was kind of lost on that one.

+1, each to his own, live and let live, etc...

[xenophobe]

I'll think about it. I can get free passes for Front Sight though...

[glen avon]

This thread seems to be hijacked by barf.com....

:D :D :D :D

[glen avon]

That is the exact attitude of most anti-gunners...also, learning to become more proficient with your firearm(s) is a must.
Mace

well that's the exact attitude of wild-eyed UN-invasion-is-just-around-the-corner militia types.

[Jeff Rambo]

I advocate serious firearms training in regards to tactics and proficency... but I would run, not walk away from Tactical Response. Take that for what it is worth, as I am not going to bother to expand on the statement.

[spaceburger]

MaceWindu does a good hype but leaves out the details about which rifle or pistol you do get to train with. Do you truley get to train with your rifle and your pistol? I think his credibility with us would have been higher if he does lay out these details. I read thier bios on tacticalresponse.com and most of them are ex cops, a few notable ex-military, and a few wannabes that trained with above.
My brother is a full time CART (used to be called SWAT) Deputy Sherrif and was one of those lucky military guys that got to train with the German GSG-9 guys in the 80's. He is also department liason between DHS, FBI, and the county. From his perspective some of these training organizations are fakes or downright dangerous to learn or train from. I don't think tacticalresponse is one of those but I am on the fence because we did not get full disclosure from MaceWindu.
So Mace...put up or shut up...what are the details?
Can you train with your rifle and pistol?
What caliber of ammo is required?
What type of range do we get to train on?
Limited to how many people?
Who are the instructors?
Range fees?
Overnight accomodations in SJ?

[schizrade2]

...okay boys n girls. Lets quit talking about coooool carbines, rifles, etc and learn how to use them.

Everybody talks about what they would do in a given situation? Really? You will drop $1.5k on a cool gun but not $200-$400 to learn how to use it? Huh? :rolleyes:

Join me here:
http://www.tacticalresponse.com/training/schedule.php
June 23 - 24 Fighting Rifle San Jose, CA

We'll see how many Calgunners actually show up to train and not type.:rolleyes:

See you there, or not.

Mace

You're so hard, you would eat the boogers out of a dead mans nose.

[Shoot-it]

Course Equipment List:



Not to put anyone down but shouldn't this course be altered so we Kalifornians can break open our ars action to reload? .....


+1 one for you man That what I thought. unless we use a mini 14 or Su16 or socom or what ever. It wouldn't work for us with TLC.....

[Harbinger]

How much is your life worth? Your kids, wife?
Mace

As was said previously... this thread comes direct from ARFCOM. :rolleyes:

Now where's that troll icon?

[Technical Ted]

MaceWindu does a good hype but leaves out the details about which rifle or pistol you do get to train with.
This is the extent of MaceWindu's so-called "After Action Report" describing his previous experience.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=24866

Compare that to BigAl's AAR of the Pat Rogers' course he attended.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=29628

[Henry47]

You're so hard, you would eat the boogers out of a dead mans nose.

and then ask for seconds

(I just watched it last night)

[jessegpresley]

I guess I'm not hard core enough to roll with Mace Windu.

[schizrade2]

High Speed, Low Drag.

[spaceburger]

Good post. I read both of them. Final score:
Mace: 0 = Hype
BigAl: 1+ = Details

final thought: one of the instructors in tacticalresponse.com had an intersting quote that Mace should probably read:

"The underlining philosophy governing all of Aaron’s courses is Performance over Perception. It does not matter what you have trained in or whom you have trained with in the past. Rank and other adornments on a uniform are irrelevant. All that matters is your ability to perform."

[Fjold]

That is the exact attitude of most anti-gunners...also, learning to become more proficient with your firearm(s) is a must.

Mace

So using a gun for hunting lumps me in with anti-gunner's. Because I don't use my rifles like you that somehow makes me an anti? Your logic escapes me.

Coming from someone who has not idea who he's talking too. Do you wear your BDU's at the range?

[glen avon]

As was said previously... this thread comes direct from ARFCOM. :rolleyes:

Now where's that troll icon?

http://peeron.com/pics/inv/custpics/973cx3.1114060803.jpg

[Snuffalofogus]

Coming from someone who has not idea who he's talking too. Do you wear your BDU's at the range?
http://picsorban.com/upload/ohsnap11.gif

[Pouchey]

So using a gun for hunting lumps me in with anti-gunner's. Because I don't use my rifles like you that somehow makes me an anti? Your logic escapes me.

Coming from someone who has not idea who he's talking too. Do you wear your BDU's at the range?

Yeah, with a license plate like that I would expect you would be 300 meters back blended into the trees like a chameleon. Don't suppose you would need a whole lot of tactical pistol training from a for profit.

You are the leader of the anti-gun movement [/side splitting laughter]

[MaceWindu]

So all of you gentlemen who read:

BigAl: 1+ = Details his AAR....who has gone?

TFTT is my next stop. Had a bro who went, said it was top notch.

Fjold

Any knowledge you have or wish to share, I am more than happy to listen to your input, advice, experience.

So all of you gents with the colorful comments, I will see you there?!

final thought: one of the instructors in tacticalresponse.com had an intersting quote that Mace should probably read:


Thats comes from Aaron Little. Great dude, great instructor from the last class I attended. BDU's at the range? ...hhmmmph...


IF any person here has a beef with James Yeager, you can pm me and I will give you his cell #. He will talk to ANYONE, regarding anything.

If you don't pm me and request the number...well, there you have it.

You are invited to join a class that is fairly local, learn something, anything. The course cirriculum is on the website, read it. Thats why the link is posted.

Too hardcore? ...yeah okay...next.

Mace

[spaceburger]

I read it and got nothing from the website as to my question:

So Mace...put up or shut up...what are the details?
Can you train with your rifle and pistol?
What caliber of ammo is required?
What type of range do we get to train on?
Limited to how many people?
Who are the instructors?
Range fees?
Overnight accomodations in SJ?

[Dump1567]

Not to hi-jack, but if your in So. Cal:


10-8 Consulting will be hosting a 3-day Intermediate/Advanced Carbine Operator's Course in Southern California at the Prado Olympic Shooting Park.

It is true there is no such thing as an "advanced gunfight", thus the curriculum will include a review of the fundamentals. Once that is accomplished, we will address issues such as shooting from asymmetrical positions, shooting on the move, strong hand only, weak hand shooting, barricade shooting, diagnostic drills, etc.,

Included in the curriculum will be an Advanced Operator Troubleshooting and Maintenance Course taught by Colt Factory Armorer Instructor Dean Caputo. Each student will learn how to properly diagnose problems and address the common (and not so common) issues that surround the AR15/M16 platform. Each student will also learn maintenance tips and tricks to keep their carbine running reliably, even in harsh conditions.

Ammunition requirements will be a MINIMUM of 1200 rounds carbine and 150 rounds pistol. As usual, the pace of the course will be dictated by the students, and we may or may not meet or exceed the estimated round count.

WHO: 10-8 Consulting LLC Staff Instructors Ben Lenett, Dean Caputo, and Tim Lau

WHAT: 3-DAY Advanced Carbine Operator's Course

WHERE: Prado Olympic Shooting Park

WHEN: July 28-30, 2006

COST: $450 (Registered Prior to July 1, 2006) or $480 (Registered July 1, 2006 or after)

To register, download the http://www.10-8forums.com/misc/IntCarbineRegForm.doc (MS Word Doc) and return with payment to the address given in the form. Payment in full is required to reserve a slot. As usual, proper credentialing (CCW, LE/Mil ID, or certification of good conduct) is required.


And here's some good info. from Pat Rogers on "Coming to Class".
http://www.eagtactical.com/article_coming_to_class.pdf

[MaceWindu]

I read it and got nothing from the website as to my question:

So Mace...put up or shut up...what are the details?
Can you train with your rifle and pistol?
What caliber of ammo is required?
What type of range do we get to train on?
Limited to how many people?
Who are the instructors?
Range fees?
Overnight accomodations in SJ?

Common Mace? ....hmmmppphh...

Ask, and you shall receive:

#1: Can you train with your rifle and pistol?

Sure, why not? Pistols are required to perform transition drills. AR's can be rented from Tactical Response, since they are from out of state, they can bring them to Kali for the purpose of training. AR rental fee is something I can get for you, but #'s are limited.

#2: What caliber of ammo is required?

What caliber you shootin?

#3. What type of range do we get to train on?

75 yrds wide, 200 long for (2) 9 hour days...you will go through lots of ammo.

#4. Limited to how many people?

About 20...

#5. Who are the instructors?

Allen Webb, James Yeager, Yancy Harrington, John Chapman, Aaron Little, Mookie (This dude is seriously squared away and per our conversations should be there if he is CONUS)...and more.

Bios are on the sight.

#6. Range fees?

$10 per day for (2) days: $20 total. You only have to pay for 1/2 the class now and the other half when the class starts.

I would like to have you there. Man, I just love to train.

#7: Overnight accomodations in SJ?

PM me and I will hook you up with some close to the range and my house (about 10 minutes from the range).

Mace

[MaceWindu]

SpaceBurger

So Mace...put up or shut up...what are the details?


Details:

(2) man approach and shooting from a barricade
Shooting from the supline, kneeling, prone positions
Malf drills
Malfunction clearance: type #1,2,3
Man down drills
Peeling
Communications, Communications, Communications
Shooting on the move
(2) man cover drills
CQB, room entry

and more...

Spaceburger, come on man! Lets go!

Mace

[CalGunsNoob]

yo mace,

have you considered enlisting? then you could take that hard chargin' hard core attitude and those skills and put them to some real use

[Jeff Rambo]

Pulled from somewhere "else" regarding Yeager's performance while in Iraq.


Yeager,

I can't hate you because that would be too easy, but some things need to get laid out about you. How you react is up to you, but no matter how you respond, it can't change my mind. Do I matter? I'm sure in your inflated ego mind, I don't, and that's fine. You've already stated that you have nothing to hide. Good for you that you're so up on yourself and you feel that way, but you just don't get it.

From day one of seeing your random bull**** on the internet, I knew you were a no-talent assclown cut from the same jock strap material as Suarez and Piazza. To this day, the start page of your Contractor DVD makes me laugh, with the two of you fools looking like Cooter and Enus in a pose-off. You may get a lot of props from the dumbass fools who worship you like a god, but you are far from it.

You profess to be all about the warrior culture and spirit, a thinking man and martial artist, yet you don't know the first of it and I'll share with you and your knob-slobbing entourage why:

I've read your BIAP road ambush posts, AAR, and watched the video several times. Funny how you admit you "****ed up", and then spend so much time deflecting attention away from your actions. "I ****ed up" is something you say when you get caught DUI, bang a transvestite hooker, or muzzle someone on a range. The more appropriate phrase is "I FAILED." Can you say that? Can you come out and admit it? In the real world of "big boys", you would have been relieved for cause, because you were found lacking when put to the ultimate test.

You cry about the problems with drinking, the leadership, the lack of training time. Then why the **** didn?t you just go ahead and jump ship man? Why didn?t you stop sniveling about spending a month with the team doing nothing, and make **** happen? Say it with me, "I FAILED."

The answer is simple, and you know it. You were just one of the many assclowns who come to Iraq to prove yourself, make money, and flip it all into some creds when you get back to the states and post the little tidbits on your website. You draw the bees to the honey, but they are just drones and weak-tit *****es. When faced with a close eye, you've tried to hide behind a sorry claim of never having served in the military and being "the guy with the least bit of time in the Middle East." The ambush happened at almost the year mark for you. Didn't you have your **** together by then? Face it fool, you were way out of your league, and always will be.

"We had our typical set of orders covering the aspects of the trip. We have heard them so many times we can all most likely recite them while asleep." If everyone knew the order so well, Johno should have known you had a critical bit of lifesaving kit like TraumaDex. ****, you should have remembered and said so when you got to Jay. Would it have meant a difference? Who knows now, but you must believe that there was a chance, otherwise you wouldn't have made the statement that you didn't think to tell Johno about it. You've spent more time bashing Johno for being unfit than being honest about yourself. Maybe if YOU had been calmer and in better control of yourself, you would have pulled it out and helped apply the TraumaDex.

I laugh at your piss-poor plea for pity because you put the car in neutral , set the emergency brake, and forgot. C'mon, based off the long list of training you credit yourself with, to include 3 schools where evasive driving techniques were taught (unless they were attended after you found you were unskilled after Iraq), I would expect you to know better. What the **** were you doing in a manual anyway? Even if your team decided to go semi-lowpro, and you bowed down and didn't stand up for something, why didn't the other two cars have something as simple as ballistic panels on the doors? You do know about them don't you? Don't try to put it on Edinburgh either, about not wanting to foot the bill, because you said yourself that there was a fleet of armoreds available, even if higher profile. You went along to get along, and didn't buck up. Bucking up at the beginning would have meant you might have to go home, and that would have screwed up your grand scheme.

You talk about standing up for integrity, but your statements prove that you are all about yourself.

You say you were the only one to lay down any sort of suppressive fire, without anyone telling you to. **** it all guy! You are SUPPOSED to take initiative in the absence of orders. Maybe you didn't get your silly little ADDRAC like your team's SOP called for because NO ONE knew where the fire was coming from. Wonder why no one knew? A wild *** guess would be that the PKM fire came from a well concealed ambush position, where the shooter(s) had pre-planned fields of fire; good grazing fire. Another guess would be that the weapon was either on its bipod, or even worse a tripod mount, because the fire was dead on accurate with the first few bursts. The white SUV had nothing to do with the source of fire. Anyone who knows what they're talking about (and you sure don't) is going to come to the same conclusion. Your guncounter-warrior mental math just doesn't cut it, and you should be ashamed you even wasted the brain cells to draw that conclusion.

You had the balls to write: "I never knew during the firefight which vehicle (or house, or person, etc) was shooting at us and I was the first one in position to deliver accurate, sustained, and deadly return fire and I didn?t know where to aim my gun. I received no serious injuries." How the **** can you claim to have delivered accurate and deadly return fire when you didn't know the origin?!?! Perhaps you returned AIMED fire when you fired at the bldg walls, but get off the pipe and stop thinking it was deadly. You may have made some noise, but in truth you simply wasted ammo.

And speaking of the SOP that you so proudly boast to have followed to the letter, it don't take a GED to figure out that when the SOP isn?t working, YOU ACT!!! I applaud you for pulling your head out of your *** and throwing a smoke, but after you were screened your fat *** should have gotten into a kneeling where you could scan better, see something, and then engage. Why'd the smoke have tape on it, and why'd you have to straighten the pin? Anyone with man strength can pull that little ring out. Why'd it take you so long to get up and move? Was it because you finally realized that with the rest of your team exposing themselves to un**** the junior varsity situation, you decided it was clear for you to finally get up? Just what the **** could you see from the ground anyway?

I can't fathom how you can walk with your head held up so high, because no one on that team died a warrior's death on Irish that day, and no one (you included) got off the "X". They died from a calamity of errors, ****-ups, and petty personal motives. You've got the balls to say that if Chris would have executed the SOP and bailed out of the car, instead of yelling he'd been shot, he might be alive. Again, **** it all man! Ever think that maybe getting shot had a little bit of effect on the guy, and that it threw things off a little? Noooo...That would be too easy, and would put attention back on you, the Walter Mitty who failed at a basic task a chimpanzee could accomplish. Now your minions want to come up with a symbol of your retarded tribe, with a contractor pulling another contractor to safety by a drag handle. What's the allure of a picture showing guys that failed and are trying to play catch up?

If you had only stood your ground and demanded what was right...if you had only sucked it up and kept the clutch in, instead of worrying about your aching calf...if you had only used your head when the SOP failed first contact and actually moved to make something happen...if you had only braved the fire to get a better shot...if you had only actually hit something?things might be different and I might be another Yeager drone. I'm glad I have the experience and commonsense to see through your bull****. I hope others read this and begin to wonder...just enough to start thinking for themselves and stop licking the bottom of your ball sack.

There are going to be those who rally around you, because they don't have the sense to see you for what you are. Take solace in what they say on your board, but look in the mirror tonight and say the words to yourself: "I failed"

I wouldn't hire Tactical Response to teach my kids to ride a tricycle or cross the street.

THE TRUTH

[Jeff Rambo]

If you want more- All you have to do is read. (http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?t=55738) Just do not come on to my board acting stupid, I or another administrator will ban you as we do not tolerate assclowns on SOCNET.

[pidooma]

This is getting good...

http://www.pidooma.org/pics/popcorn.gif

[Jeff Rambo]

This is getting good...

http://www.pidooma.org/pics/popcorn.gif

Before this goes somewhere that it is not my intent to take it, this is not about dragging TR/Yeager's name through the dirt or turning this thread into a flame-fest. But I am putting this information out there as a buyer-beware type disclaimer. By all accounts, the FIREARMS training received at Tactical Response is decent, but as MaceWindu would you leave to believe... they are not going to teach you how to be a high speed, low drag operator of death.

[paradox]

Jeff Rambo, thank you for being an admin willing to call bull****. One of the best things about CalGuns is the relative lack of keyboard kommandos a la sigforum's calvert. That only happens when admins and community call BS without resorting to personal insults.

Thank you.

[accordingtoome]

i don't have to pratice i watched Rambo 3 times last week :D

[Pablo]

This is getting good...

http://www.pidooma.org/pics/popcorn.gif

1+
Damn. I love this threads!!!


Jeff thank you for the link. In your opinion what would be a good option for training?

[Technical Ted]

i don't have to pratice i watched Rambo 3 times last week :D LOL

"What color is the boathouse at Hereford?"

Yeah. That quote from Ronin doesn't have anything to do with Rambo, but it seems appropriate.

[ohsmily]

"What color is the boathouse at Hereford?"


so subtle...

[TonyM]

LOL

"What color is the boathouse at Hereford?"

Yeah. That quote from Ronin doesn't have anything to do with Rambo, but it seems appropriate.


"I ambushed you with a cup of coffee...."

I love Ronin. :)

[dhl]

Mace is a little insulting with the, 'put up or shut up' attitude. What's with that? There are all different types of gun owners, let us be. Usually the guy's that say, 'put up or shut up' end up being the biggest talkers and dreamers.

Please, don't insult me by saying if I don't agree with you to, 'shut up'. Geez, you even had the lack of respect to put in in title.

That being said, have fun at your course!

[chickenfried]

That's we're you're wrong DHL. It's not about fun, it's about training and preperation. All I can promise you is terror for breakfast, pressure for lunch, and aggravation for sleep. Your vacations will be two minutes when you're not looking over your shoulder, and if you live to draw a pension, it'll be a miracle.

That being said, have fun at your course!

[dhl]

That's we're you're wrong DHL. It's not about fun, it's about training and preperation. All I can promise you is terror for breakfast, pressure for lunch, and aggravation for sleep. Your vacations will be two minutes when you're not looking over your shoulder, and if you live to draw a pension, it'll be a miracle.

What are you talking about? Is that a threat?

[Omega13device]

What are you talking about? Is that a threat?

Relax, it's a quote from a movie, "Remo Williams".

[HeHateMe]

I loved Remo Williams...haha!

[Amendment II]

Yeah, you are lucky it wasn't really a threat. Chickenfried usually charges $400-$500 for his "Threat Simulation" seminars. For a one paragraph written threat he would probably only charge you a fraction of the price for the whole seminar, but still, money is money.

[BigAL]

Wow. Hey I'm all for training but coming on here and talking down to others ain't the way to win any converts.

[m1371]

In your opinion what would be a good option for training?

I'll give you my .02 on it, if it's worth anything to ya.

Depending on how "spun-up" you are with your firearms..... None of the following outfits will do you wrong.

ITTS - http://www.internationaltactical.com/index.asp - Wide range of tactical handgun, carbine and shotgun classes. Outfit is run by Scott Reitz, LAPD SWAT officer.

TFTT - http://www.tftt.com/ - Tactical handgun, carbine and shotgun classes, PSD training, tactical medicine, VIP Protection training, combat fieldcraft classes (think "basic wilderness survival and tactics"). Outfit is run by Max Joseph, a former Recon Marine with a strong EP and PSD background.

FTA - http://www.ftatv.com/ - For basic handgun, rifle and shotgun classes, CA CCW classes, night firearms shoots (one of the only places I know of in SoCal that has dedicated night classes), SureFire low-light training (again, the only place I know of in SoCal to offer this), and tactical carbine, pistol and shotgun classes. Outfit is run by a current SoCal SWAT officer.

AllSafe Defense - [ http://www.allsafedefense.com/ ] - For NRA basic handgun, rifle, shotgun and home firearms safety classes. Also for NRA instructor certifications. Outfit is run by TJ Johnston.

All of these trainers are located in the SoCal region, so there may be issues with transportation and lodging. If you are local, then these are your best training options in my humble opinion.

[MaceWindu]

but as MaceWindu would you leave to believe... they are not going to teach you how to be a high speed, low drag operator of death.


That was never posted.:rolleyes:

I still have Yeagers personal cell phone # for ANYONE who has questions, but I have still not received (1) PM taking me up on it...

Come or don't, I'll be there.


Mace

[MaceWindu]

Wow. Hey I'm all for training but coming on here and talking down to others ain't the way to win any converts.

If you need a convert, talk to a priest.

Mace

[Jeff Rambo]

I still have Yeagers personal cell phone # for ANYONE who has questions, but I have still not received (1) PM taking me up on it...


No need to take you up on it. Yeager ain't a hard man to get ahold of... http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/member.php?u=13179.

[dwtt]

This is the extent of MaceWindu's so-called "After Action Report" describing his previous experience.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=24866

I read this link and found this:
"Peeling and bounding was AWESOME. Everyone dump a mag and peel back to a position of cover from the formation. Reload, COMMUNICATE and wait until the last shooter is clear. Dump another mag and PEEL! Tired, sweating, breathin hard, carbine smoking, and lovin every minute of it!

Once your class has the communication aspect down, there is rarley a task given that you can't accomplish. The five class members were tasked with "assaulting a hostile position".

At least one rifle must lay down cover fire ,ALWAYS ,while your team assaults the position: The only rule. Improvise the rest. 30 second huddle and then its go time."
This is fire team and squad tactics they teach in infantry school, except our fire teams had 4 people. Do you expect to do this type of warfare in civilian life? In the Marines everyone was expected to know this stuff and do it if needed, but what scenario do you expect to have to "assault a hostile position" in the civilian world? After reading the review and looking at the pictures, it looks like a thrill camp for Rambo types. I will use my firearms to kill a person in self defense only.

[Jeff Rambo]

it looks like a thrill camp for Rambo types.

In the future, can you replace Rambo with another fictional action movie character? My surname has taken a beating over the years thanks to Stallone. It doesn't help that my first initial is J either.

[jessegpresley]

I didn't know your name was really Rambo! I thought it was a tongue in cheek version of John Rambo!

[Jeff Rambo]

Negative. "Jeffrey Anthony Rambo" is what the birth certificate has read since day one.

The best line ever was on day 1 of the police academy. The tac officers are going down the formation looking over each cadet and one passed me by about two cadets, backed up and let out "WHOA! YOU HAVE GOT TO BE ****TING ME!" ::looking at my gear back:: "RAMBO, J.!? ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?" "LOOK EVERYONE, WE HAVE A REAL LIVE ACTION HERO!"

[Technical Ted]

After reading the review and looking at the pictures, it looks like a *edited out* thrill camp... THIS is a thrill camp for Walter Mitty types:
http://www.incredible-adventures.com/urban-ops1.html

[Jeff Rambo]

LOL @ the edit, Ted. I was more so being sarcastic in my original request... but thanks nevertheless!

[Sgt Raven]

In '78 I trained a Marine reservist how to drive big rig trucks. Can you imagine going thru Marine boot camp with the name of...........John Wayne. :eek: :rolleyes:

Negative. "Jeffrey Anthony Rambo" is what the birth certificate has read since day one.

The best line ever was on day 1 of the police academy. The tac officers are going down the formation looking over each cadet and one passed me by about two cadets, backed up and let out "WHOA! YOU HAVE GOT TO BE ****TING ME!" ::looking at my gear back:: "RAMBO, J.!? ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?" "LOOK EVERYONE, WE HAVE A REAL LIVE ACTION HERO!"

[Jeff Rambo]

I can't imagine going thru MCRD w/ the name John Wayne, but I can imagine being one of the DI's that would have a hell of a good time squaring that young cherry away :D

[blacklisted]

In the future, can you replace Rambo with another fictional action movie character? My surname has taken a beating over the years thanks to Stallone. It doesn't help that my first initial is J either.

People can use "Braddock", the Chuck Norris answer to "Rambo". Chuck Norris could kick Stallone's ***.

Nah, Rambo just sounds so much better...sorry. :D

[Jeff Rambo]

You are probably right... afterall, Chuck Norris was with 1st SFOD-D. Stallone was just with Army SF. Furthermore, Norris was a kick-*** Texas Ranger, whereas Stallone was a podunk sheriff. Scoreboard - Norris: 2, Stallone: 0.

... actually, Norris: 3, Stallone: 0. Norris also has the better looking wife. Checkmate!

[Sgt Raven]

I can't imagine going thru MCRD w/ the name John Wayne, but I can imagine being one of the DI's that would have a hell of a good time squaring that young cherry away :D


I can just picture some DI standing there asking, "who do you think you are, John F*%$ing Wayne"? "Sir, Yes Sir"!

[MaceWindu]

(8) Pages!:D

Sweet...Man, buttons are so easliy pushed around here. :)


Mace

[DV8]

I can just picture some DI standing there asking, "who do you think you are, John F*%$ing Wayne"? "Sir, Yes Sir"!

Dude thats so funny! Now think of R. Lee Ermey asking that question... http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jacket1.html...:D

Ahhh Full Metal Jacket....all the training you will ever need...

[ivanimal]

It would seem that some people believe that they are important to everyone.

I like to hunt and not have the animal suffer. I do not think any tactical training will help to that end. If I sound like I am being elitist please forgive, I am not. I just dont think the put up or shut up comment is necessary. We all have differed reasons for having the guns we love. I have been a gun owner since 1969, I do not believe that time of ownership = better. In fact it makes me more aware that I should not get too comfortable, that is how accidents happen. I have learned from the young as well as the old, I just keep my mind open to the possibilities. Mace we have had differences in the past and I offered my hand in friendship. I would offer an opinion the same as I would with anyone. It is not an attack in any way when I ask you to look at the pompous way that you are conducting youself here, it makes us all look bad. I am glad you find value in these kinds of drills. They may be important to you, they are not to me. Please take this for what it is, an opinion.

[chickenfried]

Do operator groupies qualify for the 10% military discount at wine.com? If they do I'm joining up!!!!

[grammaton76]

In '78 I trained a Marine reservist how to drive big rig trucks. Can you imagine going thru Marine boot camp with the name of...........John Wayne. :eek: :rolleyes:

Back at mp3.com, we had a developer with us named Chuck Norris. He later went on to work at Napster.

[Chappy]

I obviously have some strong opinions about training. I think if you are going to own firearms for defense, you owe it to those you are defending to gain and maintain a level of proficency in fighting with them. If you think you are up to speed, good on ya; have fun. I will still enjoy chatting about guns and stuff with you.

I am not training up to fight the hordes of zombies some think are comming; I train with the weapons I am going to have at a fight (most likely in my home): A pistol and a rifle. The training at Tactical Response is designed to give you a fundemental grasp of the weapon and how to teach yourself to fight with it. We are not a "shooting" school. We teach people to defend themselves with firearms. If you feel you are already suffecently proficent in the areas the mindset, tactics and skill to prevail in a fight for your family's life, good deal. Don't come to our classes. If you want to gain some exposure to mindset and skills that you can build on or add to your tool box, we look forward to seeing you there.

In the end, losers train until they get it right; warriors train until they can't get it wrong.

[BigAL]

Back at mp3.com, we had a developer with us named Chuck Norris. He later went on to work at Napster.


He should have round house kicked the Metallica drummer in the face.:p

[grammaton76]

He should have round house kicked the Metallica drummer in the face.:p

Unfortunately, he signed on long after all the lawsuits had succeeded. I still think the judge was being paid off by the MPAA...

[treelogger]

The course looks like something I would be interested in...but it seems useless until the lowers are listed. Tactical training with fixed mags or no grips?
Yes, USE A DIFFERENT CARBINE. Also, they have AR's to rent. Being from out of state they can bring them here to train :D


My first question is a purely technical one. What is the point of training with one type of firearm (in this case, a rented AR with detachable magazines), if in any real-life situation I will have to use a different type of firearm (fixed mag AR, or M1/M1A, or Mini-14, or whatever I might have at my disposal)? Are we trying to train people to deal with tactical situations with the tools at their disposal, or are we giving people a 2-day wild ride where they can act out their movie hero fantasies? If it is the latter, I would propose that instead of handguns and ARs we use paintball markers; they are even more fun. To summarize, I think such a course is only sensible if you bring your own tactical guns, or rent nearly identical models (for example, I could see renting a H&K USP in caliber .40S&W even though I use one in .45ACP for my tactical setup, but training on a Glock and then using a Sig or H&K would be insane).

The second question is on a more fundamental level. Let's exclude law enforcement, military training, and security contractors (such as the ones now taking jobs in Iraq), and concentrate on the tactical training that benefits a gun owner and shooter in an otherwise normal civilian life. I think that an assault-style or battlefield-style rifle (such as AR, M1...) is a tactical tool that is of no interest to the civilian shooter. There are only a few situations in which a civilian can use deadly force; one is in defense of themselves and their family in their household (where a handgun or a shotgun are more suitable than a rifle), the other being when carrying a handgun. I can see no situation in which a civilian might use a rifle such as these for tactical purposes. To begin with, one never carries such rifles when moving about. And for defense within the household or the immediate vicinity, it seems to me that a shotgun is far superior.

Another question is whether this course is intended to help prepare people for 3-gun IPSC/PPC/USPSA/... matches. Judging by the description and discussion, it is not.

So that brings up the question of the whole purpose of the course. Judging by the description, it teaches group assault and defense techniques. Those are suitable for a battlefield or a SWAT team, but useless otherwise. Which makes me think that the real purpose is not to teach tactical skills, but to provide a weekend of fun and an outlet for the above-mentioned movie hero aspirations.

Did I miss something, or is this a correct evaluation?

BTW, I have taken a 2-day tactical pistol class from AWT (Walt Marshall and gang); I consider it 20% useful, 80% waste of time on skills that will never be used. But because of the 20% useful part, I'm planning to eventually retake that class when they offer it with a night-shoot (with Surefire lights), and maybe even take a similar tactical shotgun class, targeted towards training for HD.

[bear308]

AR's can be rented from Tactical Response, since they are from out of state, they can bring them to Kali for the purpose of training.

Mace
Did I miss something? Why are they able to bring AW's into the state?

[Chappy]

Did I miss something? Why are they able to bring AW's into the state?

It is legal for a non-resident to bring a AW into CA for the purposes of competition. There is a competition involved in the course.

[glen avon]

I would like to point out that Mace Windu has either thick skin or a great sense of humor. this thread could have turned ugly but he was a good sport.

[Chappy]

My first question is a purely technical one. What is the point of training with one type of firearm (in this case, a rented AR with detachable magazines), if in any real-life situation I will have to use a different type of firearm (fixed mag AR, or M1/M1A, or Mini-14, or whatever I might have at my disposal)?

I firmly believe you should use the rifle in training you will be using to fight. The rental rifles are for folks who do not have a rifle, but want to learn the skills; or for those who for whatever reason cannot bring their personal rifle.

The second question is on a more fundamental level. Let's exclude law enforcement, military training, and security contractors (such as the ones now taking jobs in Iraq), and concentrate on the tactical training that benefits a gun owner and shooter in an otherwise normal civilian life. I think that an assault-style or battlefield-style rifle (such as AR, M1...) is a tactical tool that is of no interest to the civilian shooter.

I disagree. If you know you are going to a gunfight, take a rifle. Anything else is silly. Rifles make the perfect home defense gun on several levels. The .223 55gr round penetrates less in interior walls than a handgun round or shotshell pellets (yes, I can prove that). The .223 is a fight stopper....period. A grown man holding a 16" AR or 18" M1A is extended no further than a grown man holding a handgun out at arms distance to fire. Why not take a fight stopper to a gunfight, especcially one in your house.

There are only a few situations in which a civilian can use deadly force; one is in defense of themselves and their family in their household (where a handgun or a shotgun are more suitable than a rifle), the other being when carrying a handgun.

See above. The rifle is FAR superior to the handgun OR the shotgun for home defense.

And for defense within the household or the immediate vicinity, it seems to me that a shotgun is far superior.

See above

Another question is whether this course is intended to help prepare people for 3-gun IPSC/PPC/USPSA/... matches. Judging by the description and discussion, it is not.

You are correct, we are not gamers.

So that brings up the question of the whole purpose of the course. Judging by the description, it teaches group assault and defense techniques. Those are suitable for a battlefield or a SWAT team, but useless otherwise. Which makes me think that the real purpose is not to teach tactical skills, but to provide a weekend of fun and an outlet for the above-mentioned movie hero aspirations.

No more than mountain climbing or sport parachutting are outlets for "movie hero aspirations". There is no need to paint people who enjoy shooting or training as wanabees or rambos.....thats how non-gun owners would like to describe you.

To each his own. If you don't think training is for you, fine. There is no need to belittle those who choose to practice a "non-traditional" martial art (gunfighting IS a martial art). Something to think about.

[Chappy]

I would like to point out that Mace Windu has either thick skin or a great sense of humor. this thread could have turned ugly but he was a good sport.

Having known Mace for a long time, I can say he has both.

[bear308]

It is legal for a non-resident to bring a AW into CA for the purposes of competition. There is a competition involved in the course.

nevermind, I just read the 06 Gun Laws book and saw that it now says for the purpose of shooting targets. I could have sworn it used to say something like "competion in a match sanctioned by a club or organization with the purpose of promoting gun safety".

Good to know.

[natrab]

Hey Chappy, on a sidenote, are you from the Santa Cruz/Monterey area? Where do you shoot around here?

[MaceWindu]

I would like to point out that Mace Windu has either thick skin or a great sense of humor. this thread could have turned ugly but he was a good sport.


Thick skin, fellow shooter...thick skin. The original "Put up or shut up..." was a statement to get you shooters to step up to the plate and get some quality training. If so, great. If not, and you think you are squared away with your carbine, good for you.

I hang out with like minded individuals and I have been trained by some VERY squared away men. But, I am of the mindset that training is not a destination, but a continuous journey. I hope to see you there.

Mace

[MaceWindu]

Do you expect to do this type of warfare in civilian life? In the Marines everyone was expected to know this stuff and do it if needed, but what scenario do you expect to have to "assault a hostile position" in the civilian world? After reading the review and looking at the pictures, it looks like a thrill camp for Rambo types.


No Sir. This class was Advenced Fighting Rifle. The basis of the advanced class was the ability to improvise in a given situation. Team communcation, unity. I have made some VERY good friends in these class.

The basis of Tactical Response is not just shooting, but a fighting mindset, which is more important.

Mace

[jessegpresley]

I like shooting at paper targets and clay pigeons with friends. I'm not looking to become a ninja, operator or wet boy. If some people want to prepare for the "next civil war", zombie invasion or SHTF situations, good for them. I think there's room for both here.

I hear there's a shortage of Navy SEALs. They train you and pay you for it. Sounds like a good deal for some range commandos on these forums who can never get enough tactical training.

[m1371]

To each his own. If you don't think training is for you, fine. There is no need to belittle those who choose to practice a "non-traditional" martial art (gunfighting IS a martial art). Something to think about.

Nor is there a need to barge in with a "put up or shut" attitude which could be misconstrued in numerous different ways, as it apparently has been.

As Jeff R. commented earlier..... Nothing wrong with the type of training, just the way it was presented.

[MaceWindu]

Nor is there a need to barge in with a "put up or shut" attitude which could be misconstrued in numerous different ways, as it apparently has been.

As Jeff R. commented earlier..... Nothing wrong with the type of training, just the way it was presented.

I didn't realize that everyone here was so.....sensitive. If I hurt their "feelings" that was wrong...::snicker::

Mace

[Jeff Rambo]

Mace, it isn't about being sensitive it is more so the fact that you came off with an elitest attitude and that typically doesn't reel people in with stuff like this. Furthermore, serious shooters are always concerned about where they invest their money and if something seems questionable on top of having someone force feed it... that just does not work.

[30Cal]

I thought "Hanz and Franz" was good, but this is better ;)

Ty

[eje]

It is legal for a non-resident to bring a AW into CA for the purposes of competition. There is a competition involved in the course.

Honestly, is an informal shoot-off during a tactical rifle course the same thing as "an organized competitive match or league competition that involves the use of an assault weapon..."? PC 12280(m)(1). It's not like this is an NRA match (the supposed "competitive match" aspect of the course isn't exactly highlighted in the course description either). Are scores taken and recorded? I'm sorry but I don't think this one fits very well into the statutory exemption against importation of assault weapons.

[floorance]

OH man..... need to train my body first (lose some weight) and get off the modern day combat training Im getting at home ie "counter-strike" :D Seriously though, I feel as if the original poster is a bit smug about his attitudes towards those who owns guns and are not like him. Its "his way" or the highway, and to those who don't see it his way, your basically not worthy in his eyes as a gun owner. For someone who is inviting others to participate in something that could be educational and fun, its not very inviting at all. Just my 2cents.

[xrMike]

Hey Mace, is there still room for one more (me) at this tactical manly man-fest of which you speak?

http://www.petenelson.com/Photos/Misc/Guns/AR-15/Pete%20with%20Penelope%20(pink%20AR-15).jpg

[30Cal]

Hey Mace, is there still room for one more (me) at this tactical manly man-fest of which you speak?

http://www.petenelson.com/Photos/Misc/Guns/AR-15/Pete%20with%20Penelope%20(pink%20AR-15).jpg

Not with un-tactical footwear like that!

Ty:p

[bear308]

The funny thing about the put up or shut up attitude is when it turns back on the people spewing it.

A year or so ago, when I was heavy in 3gun, one of the guys in our group of shooting buddies did about the same thing Mace is doing. This guy was in shape, and is the kind of guy that runs around his house "clearing" it with his Glock. This put up or shut up escalated into a bet, between team hollywood (this guy and another just like him) and team fat (myself and the other big fat guy in our group.) This crap built and built, and in the match the tacticool blowhards got their butts kicked.

It's just damned funnny when this type of attitude backfires on someone.

[MaceWindu]

...wow...100 posts in this thread and 5-6 posts about actually training/ attending. My popularity grows:)

Lets keep rolling...::snicker::

Mace

[MaceWindu]

...anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Mace

[bwiese]

It is legal for a non-resident to bring a AW into CA for the purposes of competition. There is a competition involved in the course.


BULL-oney. Stop BSing.

Honestly, is an informal shoot-off during a tactical rifle course the same thing as "an organized competitive match or league competition that involves the use of an assault weapon..."? PC 12280(m)(1). It's not like this is an NRA match (the supposed "competitive match" aspect of the course isn't exactly highlighted in the course description either). Are scores taken and recorded? I'm sorry but I don't think this one fits very well into the statutory exemption against importation of assault weapons.

Absolutely, Eje. I wish people like 'chappy' would stop pushing nonsense around if they don't know specifics. I don't think this will count at all and you could be in deep doodoo on multiple AW violations, mostly felonies.

Now, I have heard - but this is unverified - that DOJ has on occasion issued short-term/temporary permits for competitions and training. One of the problems with the existing AW law is that it appears that you'd have to go directly to/from the competition and not stay overnight, visit anyone, do anything else, etc.

I wonder if these guys even know CA law and are bringing in their AWs illegally. Or, perhaps they have some member/associate that has CA reg'd AWs they use (with him present).

Bottom line, I would urge people NOT to rely on this competition exemption in the law whatsoever.

Anyone signing up for the course should ask about the legal status of the trainers' AWs that they're (likely) bringing in. See if they understand CA laws. If these guys can't get that right, and got popped for AW violations, your money might well be down the tank.

[Wild Bill]

You know what I have found with these weekend warrior wannabes. Is that most of them couldn’t make it in the Armed Service so they have to go play army some were else. I did my training and service with the best in the world the United States Marine Corps. I do not think that these weekend wannabes even have what it takes to wipe our boots!:D

[MaceWindu]

....and the hits just keeeeeep on rollin...wish someone would be a bit more original though. "Wannabees", etc...can someone please post some new pictures, comments, etc?

Mace

[MaceWindu]

....aaaaaahhh...about the training? It's a Basic carbine class, no grenades or boobytraps...

Did anyone read the outline on the site? No? Okay, sorry...lets get back off topic...

...I have some hot topics to post that are non-gun related...can't wait to seeth replies to that! Man, you guys are easy 'marks'...throw out some bait and they come a running!

Mace

[grammaton76]

Ok, just to keep things stirring - question. I've seen "high speed low drag" brought up in about the same light as mall ninjas. Now, mall ninjas I've read about and am amused by (thanks to a few links on here), but I hadn't heard about HSLD until now. Are there similar threads over on another board regarding HSLD?

[caliar15]

Ban in 3..2..1..:rolleyes:

[forumguy]

This has definately outlived its usefullness.