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gunn
07-14-2010, 1:19 PM
On vacation this past week, left the wife with her other GFs and went with a buddy to a gunshow in CO. It was a fairly small one in the Denver metro area and unlike the CA shows, this one had more than just jerky, knives, and overpriced ammo.

Two things that I found amusing. What's the most illegal thing you came across?
1) Switchblades. Are they legal to carry? Even the seller said "nope -- but you can possess it at home".

2) Uzi SBR.
I couldn't figure this one out. The guy had it in its original styrofoam box and it looked new or nearly new for ~$1500. It was an full sized uzi stamped IMI.
On the gun, he had the short barrel (~10") & the retractable stock.
The lower was clearly Semi auto only.
The box also had a spot for the magazine, the longer 16" carbine barrel", and the sling (all included).
The box was sized so the Uzi could only fit in the factory styofoam areas with the short barrel (or no barrel) mounted.

Q: How do you guys think he came about this package?
I don't know much about Uzis but is the rear stock attachment point easily added? Did the importer originally sell some kind of pistol->carbine set like Thompson/Contender and this guy just left it in an illegal configuration?

The only other way I think he could have ended up with this package was that he originally bought a pistol kit (perhaps with both barrels) and then bought the stock afterwards.

Is there some exception to constructive possession with these things (perhaps like the old Mauser pistols or the T/Cs when purchased as a pkg)?

---
Q: Have any of you seen something really, really verbooten or been proposititioned by someone looking to sell something out of this trunk?


-g

CHS
07-14-2010, 1:49 PM
It's CO. It very well might have been a lawfully registered SBR.

jtzshooters
07-14-2010, 1:53 PM
Are we talking about people or firearms ?:43:

ZX-10R
07-14-2010, 1:55 PM
Seeing people buying parts that are castrated while other states buy the same "normal" product.

ke6guj
07-14-2010, 1:56 PM
2) Uzi SBR.
I couldn't figure this one out. The guy had it in its original styrofoam box and it looked new or nearly new for ~$1500. It was an full sized uzi stamped IMI.
On the gun, he had the short barrel (~10") & the retractable stock.
The lower was clearly Semi auto only.
The box also had a spot for the magazine, the longer 16" carbine barrel", and the sling (all included).
The box was sized so the Uzi could only fit in the factory styofoam areas with the short barrel (or no barrel) mounted.

Q: How do you guys think he came about this package?
I don't know much about Uzis but is the rear stock attachment point easily added? Did the importer originally sell some kind of pistol->carbine set like Thompson/Contender and this guy just left it in an illegal configuration?

The only other way I think he could have ended up with this package was that he originally bought a pistol kit (perhaps with both barrels) and then bought the stock afterwards.

Is there some exception to constructive possession with these things (perhaps like the old Mauser pistols or the T/Cs when purchased as a pkg)?

---
Q: Have any of you seen something really, really verbooten or been proposititioned by someone looking to sell something out of this trunk?


-gThat might have been a dummy barrel you saw. IIRC, many UZIs came shipped with a 16" barrel and a 10" solid display barrel. Because the barrel was solid, installing it does not create an SBR.


As for most illegal item I saw at a gunshow in CA that I can recall, a .357 shark gun powerhead without the spear attached. Without the spear, it is considered an illegal AOW. Obscure federal felony.

Rob454
07-14-2010, 2:27 PM
Recent gun show ( costa mesa) a vendor had a few mags out. looked at them and I said you sure you wanna sell these to me. he said yup 15$ each. Again i said you sure. he looked at them closely and said OH S**T. They were complete 15 round mags. needless to say I got a thank you and he swept them off the table

Barbarossa
07-14-2010, 2:40 PM
http://www.ar-magmagnet.com/

http://www.ar-magmagnet.com/1.jpg

joefreas
07-14-2010, 2:49 PM
The guy in the parking lot trying to unload some revolvers, cash and carry-

gunn
07-14-2010, 3:02 PM
It's CO. It very well might have been a lawfully registered SBR.

It wasn't. This old man was clueless. He also had a CZ52 which he claimed was 9mm makarov. I dropped the mag and said, "gee, sir. Isn't this a big long for 9mm Mak?".

-g

gunn
07-14-2010, 3:03 PM
That might have been a dummy barrel you saw. IIRC, many UZIs came shipped with a 16" barrel and a 10" solid display barrel. Because the barrel was solid, installing it does not create an SBR.



You may be onto something here... I didn't check to see if the pistol barrel was a display. I do remember checking the chamber though but I'm not sure how fake "fake barrels" are supposed to look.

-g

scobun
07-14-2010, 3:04 PM
Nothing. I guess I'm just not looking hard enough.

Mr. Beretta
07-14-2010, 3:06 PM
About 7 years and 1 day ago, I purchased an unmarked 6 oz bag of smoked beef jerky & didn't pay any sales tax at the Del Mar Gun Show. I quickly hid it under my shirt and walked out.

I still feel dirty & refuse to answer my phone to this very day.

Freagan
07-14-2010, 3:07 PM
http://www.ar-magmagnet.com/

http://www.ar-magmagnet.com/1.jpg

From their website:

"When can I use the Mag. Magnet™?
The mag magnet can be installed and left on your firearm if it is;
- a rimfire, most commonly .22LR
- a featureless build with no other evil features such as a pistol grip, flash suppressor, vertical fore grip, flare or grenade launcher, collapsible or folding stock, or thumbhole stock.
- outside the state of California
- an “assault weapon” registered with the CA DOJ."

Arent these all situations when we could use a standard mag release anyway?

Turbinator
07-14-2010, 5:59 PM
From their website:

"When can I use the Mag. Magnet™?
The mag magnet can be installed and left on your firearm if it is;
- a rimfire, most commonly .22LR
- a featureless build with no other evil features such as a pistol grip, flash suppressor, vertical fore grip, flare or grenade launcher, collapsible or folding stock, or thumbhole stock.
- outside the state of California
- an “assault weapon” registered with the CA DOJ."

Arent these all situations when we could use a standard mag release anyway?

Yes, but for people who have Bullet Buttons installed *and* routinely get their guns in a configuration where a detachable mag is not illegal, but have to transition back to a fixed mag, that little device there is great. I think I want one.

Turby

6079Winston
07-14-2010, 6:15 PM
Way back when the Great Western was at the Pomona Fairgrounds I remember seeing a Minigun on a table just in front of the entrance to one of the main buildings. Can't remember what the price tag said, but I figured it must be a de-mill or something. After the show I mentioned it to a buddy of mine and found out he had actually talked to the seller. Turns out he had built a fully functioning gun from parts he had picked up at scrap yards and surplus auctions and had removed the ring and bolts for display. Either a truly clueless seller or an elaborate and unsuccessful sting.

Cali-Shooter
07-14-2010, 6:37 PM
When I went to the Costa Mesa Crossroads of the West Gunshow during March 2009, I saw a guy trying to sell a Tec-9 semi-auto handgun with a 50 round magazine for $900. It was the pre-ban model, complete with barrel shroud. I didn't stop to investigate if it was CA compliant with a BB and a 10/50 magazine, but it all looked like a normal, un-castrated Tec-9.
In that same Gun Show, I also saw a gun who was selling a Single-shot, break barrel, 10 Gauge Shotgun Pistol, which had a wooden pistol grip, and a barrel length of 8-10 inches long. The maker was Sears, and it looked like something that they would sell 50-60 years ago. The guy was selling it for $200.

CSACANNONEER
07-14-2010, 6:48 PM
I've BOUGHT a LOADED GUN at a gun show before. It was a muzzleloading SxS 12g. I've since parted with the gun but, I still have the powder, newspaper wading and shot that was in it.

vantec08
07-14-2010, 6:53 PM
Full-auto AK bolt carrier - - - and as I was buying a couple back-up firing pins from the seller, I heard a voice say "sir, please step back" -- two Ontario policemen took him into custody.

CSACANNONEER
07-14-2010, 7:06 PM
Full-auto AK bolt carrier - - - and as I was buying a couple back-up firing pins from the seller, I heard a voice say "sir, please step back" -- two Ontario policemen took him into custody.

LMAO! I never knew there was a difference between semi auto AK bolt carriers and FA ones. OH SHAT! EVERY AK I own has a FA bolt carrier. Am I in trouble?

Cali-Shooter
07-14-2010, 7:16 PM
Full-auto AK bolt carrier - - - and as I was buying a couple back-up firing pins from the seller, I heard a voice say "sir, please step back" -- two Ontario policemen took him into custody.

So did you walk away with them without paying or did he accept the money for them while he was being handcuffed?

jshoebot
07-14-2010, 8:00 PM
It was the pre-ban model, complete with barrel shroud.

Isn't that the shoulder thing that goes up?!? (I've always wanted to say that :D)

ke6guj
07-14-2010, 8:03 PM
ospNRk2uM3U

XYZ
07-14-2010, 8:04 PM
One guy trying to sell me his handguns without a PPT through an FFL. Just cash and OTD.

NIB
07-14-2010, 8:22 PM
When I went to the Costa Mesa Crossroads of the West Gunshow during March 2009, I saw a guy trying to sell a Tec-9 semi-auto handgun with a 50 round magazine for $900. It was the pre-ban model, complete with barrel shroud. I didn't stop to investigate if it was CA compliant with a BB and a 10/50 magazine, but it all looked like a normal, un-castrated Tec-9.


I remember that and I even muttered to myself, "oh look someone is going to jail".

Cali-Shooter
07-14-2010, 8:49 PM
Isn't that the shoulder thing that goes up?!? (I've always wanted to say that :D)

ospNRk2uM3U

Lol this never gets old. To me, it's like the "Internets!" quote of GWB, except just for gunnies like us!

I remember that and I even muttered to myself, "oh look someone is going to jail".

Yeah, either that or was a sting operation. I remember that Tec-9 was near a booth in which someone was selling a handgun with a fake can on it, or so he said it was.
Also, in that same gun show, there was a man behind me with an AKS-74U assault weapon SBR with folding stock. Not sure if it was a RAW or not.
Jeez, how many cops are waiting at a gun show just to descend upon ppl who commit "gun crimes," no matter how small?

scout II
07-14-2010, 9:19 PM
A long time ago at the Cow Palace gun show a guy from Nevada was selling a real live silencer for a small caliber pistol.I looked at it because I thought it was fake,when I realized it was real,I wiped off my finger prints and handed it back to him.I never saw that guy at a gun show again.

Woodymyster
07-14-2010, 9:40 PM
Having to pay $55 for a PPT thru one of the dealers at the show. When questioned about it they replied "well everyone else is charging more". Also the guy selling the gun would not go with me to another dealer.

frankm
07-14-2010, 10:25 PM
The ATF dressing up and acting like militia members with a Nazi bent, just to turn people off to the militia-movement.

eaglemike
07-14-2010, 10:29 PM
From their website:

"When can I use the Mag. Magnet™?
The mag magnet can be installed and left on your firearm if it is;
- a rimfire, most commonly .22LR
- a featureless build with no other evil features such as a pistol grip, flash suppressor, vertical fore grip, flare or grenade launcher, collapsible or folding stock, or thumbhole stock.
- outside the state of California
- an “assault weapon” registered with the CA DOJ."

Arent these all situations when we could use a standard mag release anyway?
Do you know the history of this? From when it was first introduced at a gun show? IIRC it was up north, maybe San Jose?
If this is the same one, the current instructions/caveats aren't even close to what was said then... I'm pretty sure this is the same one.
If it's the same one, it surely belongs in this thread. :)
all the best,
Mike

jdam777
07-14-2010, 10:30 PM
I saw a group of Illegal aliens and one was wearing a Obama "Yes we can" shirt....

jamesob
07-14-2010, 10:38 PM
I saw a group of Illegal aliens and one was wearing a Obama "Yes we can" shirt....

hmmm. how do you know they were illegal? were you racial profiling or were they yelling " hey we are illegal aliens and we love obama"?:D

swat
07-14-2010, 10:38 PM
A Nazi Swastika!

Full Clip
07-14-2010, 10:43 PM
The most "illegal?"
The prices!!!
:eek:

Fate
07-14-2010, 10:48 PM
At a small show up in Lancaster, I told a friend, "Let's go say 'Hi' to R. Lee Ermey" and he said, "Who's that?"

:banghead:

Mac Attack
07-14-2010, 10:57 PM
Many many years ago I went to a show were a Guy was selling a kit to make suppressors. He sold all be internals including baffles and end caps but not the tube. I was 18 or so and spent some time talking with him. When asked if it was legal he said you could own the parts but puttig it together was illegal and that's why he didn't sell tubes. He did however wink and tell me a guy a few rows over was selling tubes which would accept his parts.

dustoff31
07-14-2010, 11:03 PM
I've seen constructive possession of unregistered NFA guns.

All the right parts scattered over three or four tables, but the same vendor.

Grumpyoldretiredcop
07-14-2010, 11:27 PM
SBS under the table at a Marin Gun Show. That seller went away a little later...

Cali-Shooter
07-14-2010, 11:46 PM
SBS under the table at a Marin Gun Show. That seller went away a little later...

Did you have anything to do with his later absence? :p

SJgunguy24
07-14-2010, 11:57 PM
Full-auto AK bolt carrier - - - and as I was buying a couple back-up firing pins from the seller, I heard a voice say "sir, please step back" -- two Ontario policemen took him into custody.

So what did they arrest him for? Every AK kit build will have a FA bolt carrier, you can even have a FA bolt and carrier in an AR build. Those are not the controlled parts, the FCG parts and the 3 hole receivers are the controlled parts.

thedrickel
07-15-2010, 12:07 AM
That was probably me and fed at Costa Mesa in March '09 with the "Tec-9 with 50rd mag" (except it wasn't a tec-9 or a 50rd mag).


I know a couple idiots tried to sell a LAW-12 at the Costa Mesa show once. . .

fred40
07-15-2010, 12:09 AM
Most illegal thing I've seen is everything the state of California forbids US to have.

M. Sage
07-15-2010, 4:50 AM
Full-auto AK bolt carrier - - - and as I was buying a couple back-up firing pins from the seller, I heard a voice say "sir, please step back" -- two Ontario policemen took him into custody.

:rolleyes:

I've never seen or heard of a different semi-auto AK bolt carrier, they're all the same design. FA bolt carriers are not illegal in any event.

vantec08
07-15-2010, 7:59 AM
:rolleyes:

I've never seen or heard of a different semi-auto AK bolt carrier, they're all the same design. FA bolt carriers are not illegal in any event.


Then you dont get around much - - let me help you. A full auto AK carrier has a lug that trips the auto-sear group. It is also more hardened on the Rockwell scale. Gonna make it even simpler for you -- they cuffed him and took him away, I was THERE and saw it.

Lancear15
07-15-2010, 8:30 AM
Then you dont get around much - - let me help you. A full auto AK carrier has a lug that trips the auto-sear group. It is also more hardened on the Rockwell scale. Gonna make it even simpler for you -- they cuffed him and took him away, I was THERE and saw it.

I know that M16/AR15 FA bolt carriers are not illegal in any way.

As far as AK FA bolt carriers I don't know, because AKs suck and I ignore them...still, I would like someone to please expand on this and settle the debate.

Rick530
07-15-2010, 9:54 AM
A serbu shorty at the Gridley gun show. $700.00

CHS
07-15-2010, 10:01 AM
A serbu shorty at the Gridley gun show. $700.00

AOW's are legal in CA.

vantec08
07-15-2010, 10:20 AM
I know that M16/AR15 FA bolt carriers are not illegal in any way.

As far as AK FA bolt carriers I don't know, because AKs suck and I ignore them...still, I would like someone to please expand on this and settle the debate.

This was some years ago, Lancear15, when my old shooting pal was still alive. Have NO idea what they did with him - - -could have released him minutes later for all I know. Might have even been a case of ignorant LEOs.

Turbinator
07-15-2010, 10:22 AM
Then you dont get around much - - let me help you. A full auto AK carrier has a lug that trips the auto-sear group. It is also more hardened on the Rockwell scale. Gonna make it even simpler for you -- they cuffed him and took him away, I was THERE and saw it.

Well, looks like we learn something every day - there is a difference between a full auto bolt carrier and a semi -

http://www.angelfire.com/anime5/unclero/books/AK47_Full_Auto_Conversion_for_Dummies.pdf

However, just because a person was arrested, doesn't mean he or she committed a crime. Remember, there are many unlawful arrests. So, you can argue your point, but the arrest alone proves nothing.

Turby

Rick530
07-15-2010, 10:22 AM
AOW's are legal in CA.

Yeah I understand that but only legal if you go thru the correct channels. He had no problem taking someones cash and handing it directly over. Overheard a few people speaking with him while I was at the table. Also saw him sell some .50 bmg linked to a kid........ In 25rd linked incriments....

vantec08
07-15-2010, 10:40 AM
Well, looks like we learn something every day - there is a difference between a full auto bolt carrier and a semi -

http://www.angelfire.com/anime5/unclero/books/AK47_Full_Auto_Conversion_for_Dummies.pdf

However, just because a person was arrested, doesn't mean he or she committed a crime. Remember, there are many unlawful arrests. So, you can argue your point, but the arrest alone proves nothing.

Turby

Yes, educating the ill-informed is part of what we do here. You're welcome. Never said anything about "legality".

Turbinator
07-15-2010, 10:58 AM
Never said anything about "legality".

Just playing devil's advocate.. this thread is about the illegal stuff you've seen at a gun show. You mentioned that you saw a guy selling full auto AK bolt carriers. One presumes you are implicitly stating that selling a full auto AK bolt carrier is illegal. Then you follow up by stating that you watched the guy get arrested / cuffed and taken away. It can only be assumed that you're making a statement that the illegal thing you saw was the full auto AK bolt carrier being sold, for which someone got arrested and taken away. So, you are indeed making a statement about the legality of what you saw - basically what the guy did was illegal, that's what you're saying.

That's how I read it, anyway.

Turby

Bruce
07-15-2010, 11:11 AM
At the Pomona gun show MANY years ago there was a dealer from Texas who had a complete M-3 infrared sniper scope* with battery and carrying case/chest on the table. No M-3 carbine though. I made the mistake of pointing out that it was illegal in Cailifornia and was told go F myself. Really thought about hunting up the Pomona PD detail and pointing the guy out, but my buddy's cooler head prevailed.

*http://www.army.mil.kr/history/%C0%DA%B7%E1%BD%C7/%B9%AB%B1%E2%C3%BC%B0%E8/m3irsnip.htm

CHS
07-15-2010, 11:28 AM
At the Pomona gun show MANY years ago there was a dealer from Texas who had a complete M-3 infrared sniper scope* with battery and carrying case/chest on the table. No M-3 carbine though. I made the mistake of pointing out that it was illegal in Cailifornia and was told go F myself. Really thought about hunting up the Pomona PD detail and pointing the guy out, but my buddy's cooler head prevailed.

Infrared sniper scopes are also not illegal in California.

In certain cases, it may be illegal to put one on a firearm, but by themselves are not illegal. It's certainly not illegal for education or scientific purposes.

Cali-Shooter
07-15-2010, 11:31 AM
At the Pomona gun show MANY years ago there was a dealer from Texas who had a complete M-3 infrared sniper scope* with battery and carrying case/chest on the table. No M-3 carbine though. I made the mistake of pointing out that it was illegal in Cailifornia and was told go F myself. Really thought about hunting up the Pomona PD detail and pointing the guy out, but my buddy's cooler head prevailed.

*http://www.army.mil.kr/history/%C0%DA%B7%E1%BD%C7/%B9%AB%B1%E2%C3%BC%B0%E8/m3irsnip.htm

Dude, how can a old, outdated NVG scope be considered illegal? If it really is illegal based on a stupid technicality law, our Politicians really are smoking the grass. Also, SNITCHES SLEEP IN DITCHES :chris:

CHS
07-15-2010, 11:40 AM
Dude, how can a old, outdated NVG scope be considered illegal? If it really is illegal based on a stupid technicality law, our Politicians really are smoking the grass. Also, SNITCHES SLEEP IN DITCHES :chris:

They aren't illegal.

vantec08
07-15-2010, 12:08 PM
Just playing devil's advocate.. this thread is about the illegal stuff you've seen at a gun show. You mentioned that you saw a guy selling full auto AK bolt carriers. One presumes you are implicitly stating that selling a full auto AK bolt carrier is illegal. Then you follow up by stating that you watched the guy get arrested / cuffed and taken away. It can only be assumed that you're making a statement that the illegal thing you saw was the full auto AK bolt carrier being sold, for which someone got arrested and taken away. So, you are indeed making a statement about the legality of what you saw - basically what the guy did was illegal, that's what you're saying.

That's how I read it, anyway.

Turby


The point is they ruined that seller's day and maybe reputation. Making statements? I read your statement has having a need to find fault. Didnt know you have a control issue. Now I have learned something.

CHS
07-15-2010, 12:14 PM
The point is they ruined that seller's day and maybe reputation. Making statements? I read your statement has having a need to find fault. Didnt know you have a control issue. Now I have learned something.

So, you know for a FACT that they ruined his day because he was selling legal AK bolt carriers?

Turbinator
07-15-2010, 1:17 PM
The point is they ruined that seller's day and maybe reputation. Making statements? I read your statement has having a need to find fault. Didnt know you have a control issue. Now I have learned something.

Ok, this is going too far. You win.

Turby

WeekendWarrior
07-15-2010, 1:18 PM
You may be onto something here... I didn't check to see if the pistol barrel was a display. I do remember checking the chamber though but I'm not sure how fake "fake barrels" are supposed to look.

-g

I read an article once on how many Uzis, in the past at least, were shipped with a fake short barrel because people were not as interested in them with the long barrel. Basically it was the sexy factor needed to sell the rifles without the paperwork for an SBR.

WeekendWarrior
07-15-2010, 1:20 PM
Yeah I understand that but only legal if you go thru the correct channels. He had no problem taking someones cash and handing it directly over. Overheard a few people speaking with him while I was at the table. Also saw him sell some .50 bmg linked to a kid........ In 25rd linked incriments....

How do you know that was live ammunition. It could simply be dummy ammo right?

They sell "high capacity" plastic ammo belts in halloween stores, thats all I'm trying to say. Keep in mind gunshows sell a lot of junk too, like cheap airsoft, etc

Rick530
07-15-2010, 1:22 PM
How do you know that was live ammunition. It could simply be dummy ammo right?

They sell "high capacity" plastic ammo belts in halloween stores, thats all I'm trying to say

I was standing 2' from the kids. From hearing the conversation it was live ammo.

GunLover
07-15-2010, 1:29 PM
When they used to have the Great western Gun show here in cali I seen a ammo vender sell a crate of 9mm to under age kids.

A bit off topic but I remember they used to have the white power Nazi vendors there. They were selling german wwII stuff and Nazi flags, SS flags, uniforms, hate stickers, pictures ect. My friend who is black used to go to their booth and ask qustions about how much this was and that was. He asked about the history about items they had. They always gave him dirty looks and not answer most of his questions. But he would just keep on talking to them. Just to see the looks on their faces was priceless.

vantec08
07-15-2010, 1:31 PM
Checked with a friend that was with our group that day .. . the vendor was arrested for violation of section 12200 PC because an AK auto-carrier is a part made exclusively for use in a "machine gun." Ed said they took him away in a the police car, meaning he was booked.

WeekendWarrior
07-15-2010, 1:46 PM
On Monday's episode of Pawn Stars (this coming Monday) according to the promo I saw on TV last night a dude walks into the pawn shop and tries to sell them a live grenade! :eek: It went something like this: "Owner: What do you have for me today? Seller: I have a live grenade <pulls grade out of ammo can>. Owner - Get out of my shop right now." From the brief clip I saw this guy looks clueless to laws surrounding DDs, although the promo could have been clipped together leaving out that side of the conversation, and may have just committed a felony on national tv. I dont watch the show, but I will watch on Monday to find out!

WeekendWarrior
07-15-2010, 1:47 PM
I was standing 2' from the kids. From hearing the conversation it was live ammo.

Damn those kids must have some money to burn then! :D

geeknow
07-15-2010, 1:52 PM
Q: Have any of you seen something really, really verbooten or been proposititioned by someone looking to sell something out of this trunk?


-g


never :cool:.

g

bigthaiboy
07-15-2010, 2:36 PM
Two years ago, I was offered a 1980's, early 90's Russian Baikal IJ-70 Makarov pistol by a vendor, cash & carry with a C&R license, for $200 cash. I told him it had to be transferred through a FFL01, and he just walked away and ignored me. I think his behavior after I corrected him proves he knew what he was doing.

CSACANNONEER
07-15-2010, 6:29 PM
Well, looks like we learn something every day - there is a difference between a full auto bolt carrier and a semi -

http://www.angelfire.com/anime5/unclero/books/AK47_Full_Auto_Conversion_for_Dummies.pdf

However, just because a person was arrested, doesn't mean he or she committed a crime. Remember, there are many unlawful arrests. So, you can argue your point, but the arrest alone proves nothing.

Turby

Thanks Turby. I learned something new today! Anyway, I just looked at my WASR10's bolt carrier and it is a FA one! So, I'm pretty sure that either every WASR imported into this country is either an unregistered machine gun or FA bolt carriers are not illegal to own or use.

vantec08
07-15-2010, 6:37 PM
Thanks Turby. I learned something new today! Anyway, I just looked at my WASR10's bolt carrier and it is a FA one! So, I'm pretty sure that either every WASR imported into this country is either an unregistered machine gun or FA bolt carriers are not illegal to own or use.

This is california. . . . . NOT the usa.

CSACANNONEER
07-15-2010, 8:17 PM
This is california. . . . . NOT the usa.

So? there is NO CALIFORNIA LAW that makes it illegal to possess, own, buy, manufacture, etc. a FA AK bolt carrier. Either, the vendor did something else wrong or, it was a bad bust. Either way, FA bolt carriers are legal in Ca and often found at gunshows.

scotthmt
07-15-2010, 8:22 PM
LOL cmon now, stop spreading FUD, theres nothing illegal about a FA ak bolt carrier. jesus christ, end it now.

scotthmt
07-15-2010, 8:23 PM
you saw this you saw that, i dont care, a FA ak bolt carrier is not illegal and you are flat out wrong if you think it is

vantec08
07-15-2010, 9:00 PM
you saw this you saw that, i dont care, a FA ak bolt carrier is not illegal and you are flat out wrong if you think it is

Really? so. . .. I can take your word for it or DOJ's. Now theres a tough one.

12200. The term "machinegun" as used in this chapter means any
weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can readily be restored
to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual
reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also
include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed
and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed
and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and
any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if
such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
The term also includes any weapon deemed by the federal Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms as readily convertible to a machinegun
under Chapter 53 (commencing with Section 5801) of Title 26 of the
United States Code.


DOJ informs me they WILL prosecute. Depends on if the examining LEO knows an auto carrier from other. That vendor had it sitting in the open with a sign. And .. yes .. . .I did see it happen. Glad you are clear on that.

Hopi
07-15-2010, 9:08 PM
Really? so. . .. I can take your word for it or DOJ's. Now theres a tough one.

12200. The term "machinegun" as used in this chapter means any
weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can readily be restored
to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual
reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also
include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed
and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed
and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and
any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if
such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
The term also includes any weapon deemed by the federal Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms as readily convertible to a machinegun
under Chapter 53 (commencing with Section 5801) of Title 26 of the
United States Code.


DOJ informs me they WILL prosecute. Depends on if the examining LEO knows an auto carrier from other. That vendor had it sitting in the open with a sign. And .. yes .. . .I did see it happen. Glad you are clear on that.


The bolded parts are your problem, specifically the underlined....

hnoppenberger
07-15-2010, 9:18 PM
At the Pomona gun show MANY years ago there was a dealer from Texas who had a complete M-3 infrared sniper scope* with battery and carrying case/chest on the table. No M-3 carbine though. I made the mistake of pointing out that it was illegal in Cailifornia and was told go F myself. Really thought about hunting up the Pomona PD detail and pointing the guy out, but my buddy's cooler head prevailed.

*http://www.army.mil.kr/history/%C0%DA%B7%E1%BD%C7/%B9%AB%B1%E2%C3%BC%B0%E8/m3irsnip.htm

You my friend, have mommy issues.

hnoppenberger
07-15-2010, 9:20 PM
Oh, and the most illegal thing I've seen at a gun show? mac-11 full auto .380

vantec08
07-15-2010, 9:31 PM
The bolded parts are your problem, specifically the underlined....

that right? so . .. . I can take your word for it or DOJ's, and I have seen one arrest made for it so I tend to believe them. I would never have an auto carrier in mine.

Hopi
07-15-2010, 9:39 PM
that right? so . .. . I can take your word for it or DOJ's, and I have seen one arrest made for it so I tend to believe them. I would never have an auto carrier in mine.

Heh. The irony of course is that the DOJ has been taking our word for years now...;) The Calguns flowcharts are not hanging on PD/SO station walls because the colors compliment the decors....


And the excerpt of code that you posted above disproves your point. An AK auto carrier is not a part that is solely intended for machine guns, and it alone does not constitute a combo of parts that can be assembled into a machine gun. Pretty simple stuff.

Dirk Tungsten
07-15-2010, 10:01 PM
Saw some dude selling a FAL sans magazine lock a few months ago at a show in nor cal. I examined the thing, and the mag release appeared to function and it had a for sale tag on it :confused: I wouldn't be surprised if the cops at the show may have had a chat with him, but I didn't say anything to the guy...I probably should have. At least it was an off-list receiver.

tuna quesadilla
07-15-2010, 10:39 PM
Recent gun show ( costa mesa) a vendor had a few mags out. looked at them and I said you sure you wanna sell these to me. he said yup 15$ each. Again i said you sure. he looked at them closely and said OH S**T. They were complete 15 round mags. needless to say I got a thank you and he swept them off the table

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that it is 100% legal to purchase the magazines in a situation like this. You just passed up on the opportunity of a lifetime: Legally obtaining hi-cap mags in California.

Nowhere in here does it say anything about purchasing magazines; only selling, manufacturing, giving/lending, and importing...

PC 12020
(a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.
(c)(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action firearm.

Are you gonna snitch on the vendor for selling hi-caps? No? Then you're perfectly legal to buy them.

jdberger
07-15-2010, 10:42 PM
That might have been a dummy barrel you saw. IIRC, many UZIs came shipped with a 16" barrel and a 10" solid display barrel. Because the barrel was solid, installing it does not create an SBR.



Bingo. That's exactly what the OP saw. I used to see lots of them.

Cali-Shooter
07-15-2010, 10:47 PM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that it is 100% legal to purchase the magazines in a situation like this. You just passed up on the opportunity of a lifetime: Legally obtaining hi-cap mags in California.

Nowhere in here does it say anything about purchasing magazines; only selling, manufacturing, giving/lending, and importing...

PC 12020
(a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.
(c)(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action firearm.

Are you gonna snitch on the vendor for selling hi-caps? No? Then you're perfectly legal to buy them.

He may have technically legally acquired those magazines if he bought them, but at what risk?
Last gun shows I've been to had LEO's crawling all over the place, esp. outside the gates for some reason. It could really mess his day up if he bought those mags, and had to answer to a LEO who would at the least give him a hard time and threaten arrest or violation of PC, to a downright ignorant LEO who would believe he (the buyer) just committed a felony and arrest him on the spot. IMO, he did the right thing, because it seems like he went with his GUT INSTINCT. If it smells fishy, don't do it. Could have been a sting, trouble waiting to happen, or nothing.

Ape
07-15-2010, 11:04 PM
On vacation this past week, left the wife with her other GFs and went with a buddy to a gunshow in CO. It was a fairly small one in the Denver metro area and unlike the CA shows, this one had more than just jerky, knives, and overpriced ammo.

Two things that I found amusing. What's the most illegal thing you came across?
1) Switchblades. Are they legal to carry? Even the seller said "nope -- but you can possess it at home".

2) Uzi SBR.
I couldn't figure this one out. The guy had it in its original styrofoam box and it looked new or nearly new for ~$1500. It was an full sized uzi stamped IMI.
On the gun, he had the short barrel (~10") & the retractable stock.
The lower was clearly Semi auto only.
The box also had a spot for the magazine, the longer 16" carbine barrel", and the sling (all included).
The box was sized so the Uzi could only fit in the factory styofoam areas with the short barrel (or no barrel) mounted.

Q: How do you guys think he came about this package?
I don't know much about Uzis but is the rear stock attachment point easily added? Did the importer originally sell some kind of pistol->carbine set like Thompson/Contender and this guy just left it in an illegal configuration?

The only other way I think he could have ended up with this package was that he originally bought a pistol kit (perhaps with both barrels) and then bought the stock afterwards.

Is there some exception to constructive possession with these things (perhaps like the old Mauser pistols or the T/Cs when purchased as a pkg)?

---
Q: Have any of you seen something really, really verbooten or been proposititioned by someone looking to sell something out of this trunk?


-g

Don't forget, here in Free Colorado all we have to do is follow the many restrictive laws of the Feds and we can own purt near anything we want. ;)


And I have to say, many of my friends and I comment almost daily on how screwed up Kommifornia's gun laws (and other laws) are there....... But since joining your forum recently, I don't think I ever really took it to heart as to how BADLY you guys and gals REALLY have it there! :eek:
You really need to get some serious voting into action and fix this junk! :-/

greasemonkey
07-15-2010, 11:10 PM
Isn't that the shoulder thing that goes up?!? (I've always wanted to say that :D)

No, it's not. I uh....

ArkinDomino
07-15-2010, 11:35 PM
Lol this never gets old. To me, it's like the "Internets!" quote of GWB, except just for gunnies like us!



Yeah, either that or was a sting operation. I remember that Tec-9 was near a booth in which someone was selling a handgun with a fake can on it, or so he said it was.
Also, in that same gun show, there was a man behind me with an AKS-74U assault weapon SBR with folding stock. Not sure if it was a RAW or not.
Jeez, how many cops are waiting at a gun show just to descend upon ppl who commit "gun crimes," no matter how small?

I wish there was footage of that whole interview because I've always wanted to see if he tried to pin her down a couple more times or did it end soon after those infamous few seconds?

50 Freak
07-16-2010, 12:45 AM
I've only seen two things that were illegal at various shows.

One was at an "antique show", this lady was selling a couple of walking canes, one of which was a cane gun. The shaft unscrewed out of the handle, and a round was inserted down the middle and the handle acted as the firing mechanism.

The second was at a gun show, and again a lady manning the table had basically crap stuff on this small table. I looked closely and noticed two DIAS (drop in Auto Sears) fo the AR15s. I know the arguement that the actual DIASs can be sold and owned as a part as long as you don't own an AR, but geez, I got out of there quickly.

vantec08
07-16-2010, 5:08 AM
Heh. The irony of course is that the DOJ has been taking our word for years now...;) The Calguns flowcharts are not hanging on PD/SO station walls because the colors compliment the decors....


And the excerpt of code that you posted above disproves your point. An AK auto carrier is not a part that is solely intended for machine guns, and it alone does not constitute a combo of parts that can be assembled into a machine gun. Pretty simple stuff.

Agree . .. . so simple. The legislative intent is to prohibit them. Yea, uh huh - - pretty simple stuff alright. I dont happen to have 10 to 15k cash laying around to invest in lawyers nor am I willing to surrender my rifle for-freakin-ever nor am I willing to spend up to YEARS undoing the paper trail so my next DROS passes muster, considering that semi-auto carriers and matched carrier/bolt groups are readily available and inexpensive.

CHS
07-16-2010, 9:35 AM
Agree . .. . so simple. The legislative intent is to prohibit them. Yea, uh huh - - pretty simple stuff alright. I dont happen to have 10 to 15k cash laying around to invest in lawyers nor am I willing to surrender my rifle for-freakin-ever nor am I willing to spend up to YEARS undoing the paper trail so my next DROS passes muster, considering that semi-auto carriers and matched carrier/bolt groups are readily available and inexpensive.

All of my AR15's have full-auto bolt carriers.

There are numerous documented letters from the ATF and DOJ talking about the legality of these items.

So please tell me, what's the difference between an AR15 FA bolt carrier and an AK47 FA bolt carrier? Functionally, nothing.

They're both legal. Period.

Hopi
07-16-2010, 9:40 AM
Agree . .. . so simple. The legislative intent is to prohibit them. Yea, uh huh - - pretty simple stuff alright. I dont happen to have 10 to 15k cash laying around to invest in lawyers nor am I willing to surrender my rifle for-freakin-ever nor am I willing to spend up to YEARS undoing the paper trail so my next DROS passes muster, considering that semi-auto carriers and matched carrier/bolt groups are readily available and inexpensive.

Our collective behavior back in 2005/2006 would have made you **** your pants....and that's fine, there are those that blaze trails, and there are those that pull up the rear with the gear.....everyone has their role.


Don't do anything you're not comfortable with, but don't spread misinformation.

garrett916
07-16-2010, 10:17 AM
everytime i goto gun shows i see illigal things going on. Like our state not allowing us to bear arms. castrating our arms and making guns not accessable to us which is unconstitutional

Gryff
07-16-2010, 10:36 AM
At the Reno show, I saw a seller with a GSG-5 pistol to which he mounted a vertical foregrip. He had no idea that he had created an illegal (when un-registered) configuration.

Grumpyoldretiredcop
07-16-2010, 1:00 PM
Did you have anything to do with his later absence? :p

Nope. ATF (as it was called then) did. I would have, but couldn't find the Penal Code section for "Stupid in Public". :D

Lateralus
07-16-2010, 2:48 PM
Vantec,

I encourage debate, but not public misinformation. If you would like to continue your discussion of FA AK carriers, may I suggest you PM Hopi, jdberger, greasemonkey, or any other of the C3 Team? I would hate to see your statement being contorted into advice then it is not. Plus, I'm not a thread jack fan.

Back on topic.

Illegal? Oh, where do I start....

-80% Receivers that just need one detent hole drilled.
-A MMG style replacement that was made out of metal and was blatantly illegal. I personally stopped the seller from making and using these.
-Cash and carry everything

What amazes me more is the people. When I am working the CGN booth, COMPLETE STRANGERS come ask me for advice about their unregistered MAK-90 in their closet. I usually reply that they don't know me and I could be anybody. I then ask them what Mak90? I don't see a MAK-90. I see a pile of parts to be demilled immediately.

russ69
07-16-2010, 3:04 PM
I've seen guys sell AR15s, Uzis, Mini Uzis, AKSs, 99 round mags, 30 rounders by the pallet load, pistols out of their trunks, Mac10s, 50 cals and it was all cash and carry! The funny thing is was it was all perfectly legal. Things were good back in the day. I still find it hard to believe we are in the mess we are in. Even the guys in the gun shops can't figure out our twisted gun laws. What a mess........

Thanx, Russ

dmcag69
07-17-2010, 9:14 AM
Vantec,

I encourage debate, but not public misinformation. If you would like to continue your discussion of FA AK carriers, may I suggest you PM Hopi, jdberger, greasemonkey, or any other of the C3 Team? I would hate to see your statement being contorted into advice then it is not. Plus, I'm not a thread jack fan.

Back on topic.

Illegal? Oh, where do I start....

-80% Receivers that just need one detent hole drilled.
-A MMG style replacement that was made out of metal and was blatantly illegal. I personally stopped the seller from making and using these.
-Cash and carry everything

What amazes me more is the people. When I am working the CGN booth, COMPLETE STRANGERS come ask me for advice about their unregistered MAK-90 in their closet. I usually reply that they don't know me and I could be anybody. I then ask them what Mak90? I don't see a MAK-90. I see a pile of parts to be demilled immediately.


"A MMG style replacement that was made out of metal and was blatantly illegal. I personally stopped the seller from making and using these."

I'm just curious, this is a new one to me, how is a metal mmg illegal compared to a real one, or could you still wrap your thumb around it? Explain, I never seen or heard this before.

Bruce
07-17-2010, 10:45 AM
Infrared sniper scopes are also not illegal in California.

In certain cases, it may be illegal to put one on a firearm, but by themselves are not illegal. It's certainly not illegal for education or scientific purposes.

It is illegal to sell one:

468PC-- Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes of,
conceals, or has in his possession a sniperscope shall be guilty of a
misdemeanor, punishable by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars
($1,000) or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one
year, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
As used in this section, sniperscope means any attachment, device
or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm
which, through the use of a projected infrared light source and
electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually
determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime.
This section shall not prohibit the authorized use or possession
of such sniperscope by a member of the armed forces of the United
States or by police officers, peace officers, or law enforcement
officers authorized by the properly constituted authorities for the
enforcement of law or ordinances; nor shall this section prohibit the
use or possession of such sniperscope when used solely for
scientific research or educational purposes.

jigenax
07-17-2010, 10:46 AM
It was back when the Great Western was still at Pomona. I witnessed a shoplifter stealing .22LR ammo from a vendor. He casually slipped a few CCIs 100 packs into his shopping bag and walk away.

But just before I could do anything, a lady screamed and pointed at him "He's stealing!". The vendor, a BIG DUDE, runs after him and catches him by his shirt collar. As the cops and security move in, the vendor is shaking the thief, screaming in his face "STOP STEALING FROM ME!!!". Then the funniest thing happened when the vendor was shaking that fat little man, more stuff were falling out of his pants and shirt! It was like watching a Pinata breaking open!

Man, I sure miss the Great Western Show. It's always entertaining at that show.

SJgunguy24
07-17-2010, 1:03 PM
Then you dont get around much - - let me help you. A full auto AK carrier has a lug that trips the auto-sear group. It is also more hardened on the Rockwell scale. Gonna make it even simpler for you -- they cuffed him and took him away, I was THERE and saw it.

Yes but the carrier is not a controlled item.


Checked with a friend that was with our group that day .. . the vendor was arrested for violation of section 12200 PC because an AK auto-carrier is a part made exclusively for use in a "machine gun." Ed said they took him away in a the police car, meaning he was booked.

Then that PD would have to release him, he broke no laws.


Really? so. . .. I can take your word for it or DOJ's. Now theres a tough one.


Yes, the DOJ is full of idiots who like to bully people and ruin lives.

12200. The term "machinegun" as used in this chapter means any
weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can readily be restored
to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual
reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also
include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed
and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed
and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and
any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if
such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
The term also includes any weapon deemed by the federal Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms as readily convertible to a machinegun
under Chapter 53 (commencing with Section 5801) of Title 26 of the
United States Code.


DOJ informs me they WILL prosecute. Depends on if the examining LEO knows an auto carrier from other. That vendor had it sitting in the open with a sign. And .. yes .. . .I did see it happen. Glad you are clear on that.

An AK is considered an MG when the receiver has the 3rd axis pin hole. The FCG are the only MG parts inside of an AK. The funny thing, you can modify those parts and now the illegal MG parts are clean and can be used in a semi auto build, 100% legally. Anytime I build an AK pistol I reuse the OEM FCG, I s-can the 3rd pin, lose the retarder, and the auto sear. I also have to grind off the nubs on the disconnector and the hammer that act as part of the FA FCG.

bigthaiboy
07-17-2010, 1:38 PM
-A MMG style replacement that was made out of metal and was blatantly illegal. I personally stopped the seller from making and using these.


I missed the story on this one. Curious to what the difference in design made it a no-no. Any more info, please?

winnre
07-17-2010, 9:24 PM
It was back when the Great Western was still at Pomona. I witnessed a shoplifter stealing .22LR ammo from a vendor. He casually slipped a few CCIs 100 packs into his shopping bag and walk away.

But just before I could do anything, a lady screamed and pointed at him "He's stealing!". The vendor, a BIG DUDE, runs after him and catches him by his shirt collar. As the cops and security move in, the vendor is shaking the thief, screaming in his face "STOP STEALING FROM ME!!!". Then the funniest thing happened when the vendor was shaking that fat little man, more stuff were falling out of his pants and shirt! It was like watching a Pinata breaking open!

Man, I sure miss the Great Western Show. It's always entertaining at that show.

According to California law, if he did not leave the building the conviction for shoplifting is not a given. There was a thief at Buena Park camera shows who was caught but since he had not left the building, they yelled at him and had to let him go.

SJgunguy24
07-17-2010, 10:10 PM
According to California law, if he did not leave the building the conviction for shoplifting is not a given. There was a thief at Buena Park camera shows who was caught but since he had not left the building, they yelled at him and had to let him go.

If the item in question has been concealed and intent of theft, then yes that is shop lifting. Once somebody leaves the store, law enforcement must be called. If store security or any employee touches somebody when they are out of the store they open themselves up to a law suit or if the thief feel threatened and uses force to protect himself, but contact was initiated by the store employee, guess who gets hooked for battery?

WW2Buff
07-17-2010, 11:20 PM
I missed the story on this one. Curious to what the difference in design made it a no-no. Any more info, please?

Ditto. -Ben

winnre
07-17-2010, 11:51 PM
If the item in question has been concealed and intent of theft, then yes that is shop lifting.

If I go to the store and shove batteries in my pocket, no one should approach me until I pass the registers and even better leave the store. I can argue I was getting a bag of dog food or ice (on the other side of the registers) and was going to pay for it all, but once I am out of the store the charge is gonna stick.

More than once I have been shopping and drank a soda, paying for the empty can. No intent. Rally hard to prove intent when I am still in the store.

Legally speaking, when I take an item off the shelf and put it in my cart I have agreed to their price and a binding contract has been created. That's why if the item was mispriced I still get it.

I did loss prevention for a year. Biggest bust -- my partner. :eek::(

jigenax
07-18-2010, 12:40 AM
According to California law, if he did not leave the building the conviction for shoplifting is not a given. There was a thief at Buena Park camera shows who was caught but since he had not left the building, they yelled at him and had to let him go.

Well, this was the old Pomona Fairgrounds and this particular vendor was outside, under a tent. I watched the thief get free shiny bracelets and the crowd cheered as the cops took him away.

So would that law still apply for outdoor vendors? Wouldn't leaving the immediate area of the booth be considered breaking the legal threshold?

winnre
07-18-2010, 12:45 AM
Well, this was the old Pomona Fairgrounds and this particular vendor was outside, under a tent. I watched the thief get free shiny bracelets and the crowd cheered as the cops took him away.

So would that law still apply for outdoor vendors? Wouldn't leaving the immediate area of the booth be considered breaking the legal threshold?

I know at the camera shows it is all under one roof and the guy got away because he was caught and stopped under that one roof. Cops said shoulda let him leave, and let the guy go.

Interesting being out of doors there is no door to leave. Many times at outdoor vendors I have taken 3 or 4 steps back with an item, like a rifle, so I have room to swing it and not bother other buyers. of course I had no intent to leave, but just how far can I go away from the vendor before I get popped?

It'd be nice if the arrest can be followed up with, see what defense his lawyer makes, if any, and see what the judge says. I'm curious now.

vantec08
07-18-2010, 3:22 AM
All of my AR15's have full-auto bolt carriers.

There are numerous documented letters from the ATF and DOJ talking about the legality of these items.

So please tell me, what's the difference between an AR15 FA bolt carrier and an AK47 FA bolt carrier? Functionally, nothing.

They're both legal. Period.

one question . ... . . so why is DOJ willing to arrest and prosecute? I've seen it happen -- and that happens to trump your rap.

SJgunguy24
07-18-2010, 3:34 AM
one question . ... . . so why is DOJ willing to arrest and prosecute? I've seen it happen -- and that happens to trump your rap.

How much have you delt with the DOJ? They make stuff up as they go, harass business owners and customers. They have this bully attitude and you will respect them or suffer the consequences. Guess what, they've been slapped around and they know that crap won't fly when they deal with some FFL's.
If they will arrest somebody for a LEGAL UNCONTROLLED firearm part then you might have an idea why Allison Merilees doesn't work at the BOF anymore.

I've had some of my builds gone through and yes, I use the OEM FA FCG from the demilled AK kit, but the critical parts that will cause FA fire are removed and modified. That is 100% above the board legal. AR's FA bolt carriers have nothing to do with making tha gun go FA, that is the job of the FCG.
Every kit gun I build has a FA bolt carrier.

cpt_majestic
07-18-2010, 6:20 AM
The most "illegal?"
The prices!!!
:eek:

so true

Average Joe American
07-18-2010, 10:00 AM
I was at a gun show at the Cow Palace back in the 1980's. God I miss those days!!! Great gun show. Lots of evil weapons back then.

Anyways, I say a 20 year old dressed in BDU's shoot a hole in his hand when fondling a handgun! There was a BANG! and everybody froze. Then someone yelled out "WHO'S GOT A LOADED GUN".

Thank God no one else was hit but his hand was seriously ventilated. The idiot even had a smirk on his face when I walked by?

CHS
07-18-2010, 12:00 PM
one question . ... . . so why is DOJ willing to arrest and prosecute? I've seen it happen -- and that happens to trump your rap.

The DOJ is not willing to arrest and prosecute for FA bolt carriers.

Just give it up already. Seriously.

CSACANNONEER
07-19-2010, 5:10 AM
one question . ... . . so why is DOJ willing to arrest and prosecute? I've seen it happen -- and that happens to trump your rap.

My best guess is that the vendor was doing something else wrong. I have seen FA FCGs offered for sale at Ca gun shows and even these are legal to own as long as you do not own a firearm that they can work in. I aplaud your persistance about this but, you obviously incorrectly assumed why the vendor was taken into custody.

Why is DOJ willing to arrest? Well, theyt just don't know any better. There is a highly respected FFL who ended up cuffed because he was selling a 510 DTC and DOJ insisted that it was illegal to sell a 50 caliber rifle. If it wasn't for the fact that this FFL was also a retired ATF&E agent, he probably would have been dragged from the show and had to spend 100K to prove that the DOJ flunkies were idiots. So, in this case, DOJ was trumped by a retired ATF&E agent.

If you are afraid of being arrested by any LEA for legally going about your bussiness, you are playing the odds by picking DOJ's BOF. They really do not have a great track record and constantly try to make up laws and enforce them. Have you ever personally delt with them? Just call them and ask a few questions. Then, call back a week later and ask the same questions. You will get two (or three) entirely different answers.

Rob454
07-19-2010, 5:31 AM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that it is 100% legal to purchase the magazines in a situation like this. You just passed up on the opportunity of a lifetime: Legally obtaining hi-cap mags in California.

.

Technically yes you are right. i could of bought them but at what risk or cost?. But they were FULLY ASSEMBLED as magazines and sold as such. So I rather not purchase complete high cap mags. So yeah I guess I passed up a opportunity but while nothing seemed fishy and the guy did take them off the table I rather not buy them. And no you CANNOT purchase high cap mags in california. You can purchase KITS to rebuild your existing high cap mags:D kinda stupid law if you ask me but nobody asked me:(

Sinixstar
07-19-2010, 5:37 AM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that it is 100% legal to purchase the magazines in a situation like this. You just passed up on the opportunity of a lifetime: Legally obtaining hi-cap mags in California.

Nowhere in here does it say anything about purchasing magazines; only selling, manufacturing, giving/lending, and importing...

PC 12020
(a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.
(c)(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action firearm.

Are you gonna snitch on the vendor for selling hi-caps? No? Then you're perfectly legal to buy them.

He did the guy a favor. Guy clearly didn't realize what he had put out there (or was just trying to cover the fact that he did, who knows). Had someone with a badge in their pocket come along - that could have really ruined the guy's day. No need to tattle-tale on anybody for that to happen.

PolishMike
07-19-2010, 8:07 AM
Wow, I didn't realize everyone at the gun show is a lawyer...

gunn
07-19-2010, 8:50 AM
Wow, I didn't realize everyone at the gun show is a lawyer...

It has nothing to do with being litigious. It's about being aware of the laws so that more of us law abiding gun owners don't get lumped in with the criminals.

Had I climbed on my high horse and waived it in the sellers face, you could have accused me of being an amateur cop. But a lawyer? pfft.
-g


PS. I have no love for lawyers (they cost too much) but I'm not sure your comment is applicable.

Lancear15
07-19-2010, 9:10 AM
All of my AR15's have full-auto bolt carriers.

There are numerous documented letters from the ATF and DOJ talking about the legality of these items.

So please tell me, what's the difference between an AR15 FA bolt carrier and an AK47 FA bolt carrier? Functionally, nothing.

They're both legal. Period.

But the letter is specifically talking only about the M16/AR15 FA carriers. I'm sure you are right, but would be nice to have a letter from the ATF/DOJ stating so.

DAUG
07-19-2010, 9:18 AM
The most "illegal?"
The prices!!!
:eek:

Just what I was about to say....the prices for beef jerky, LOL! :eek:

Sillyguy
07-19-2010, 9:29 AM
If I go to the store and shove batteries in my pocket, no one should approach me until I pass the registers and even better leave the store. I can argue I was getting a bag of dog food or ice (on the other side of the registers) and was going to pay for it all, but once I am out of the store the charge is gonna stick.

More than once I have been shopping and drank a soda, paying for the empty can. No intent. Rally hard to prove intent when I am still in the store.

Legally speaking, when I take an item off the shelf and put it in my cart I have agreed to their price and a binding contract has been created. That's why if the item was mispriced I still get it.

I did loss prevention for a year. Biggest bust -- my partner. :eek::(

i wanna hear about that bust!

jdberger
07-19-2010, 11:05 AM
one question . ... . . so why is DOJ willing to arrest and prosecute? I've seen it happen -- and that happens to trump your rap.

Hi -

Could you please send me a PM with more information on these arrests and prosecutions. I'd like to do a little follow-up.

If possible, could you include:


Name of the person arrested
Date of arrest
Place it happened
Arresting agency
Identification of possible witnesses
Purported crime


Thanks so much. I'll also send you a PM.

Rob454
07-19-2010, 7:36 PM
Wow, I didn't realize everyone at the gun show is a lawyer...


No lawyer here but I like to know what is and is nto legal. About 5 years ago I would of been clueless if anyone asked me.
I jsut wanted the guy to know what he put on the table for sale. I may not know everything about gun laws but I know what pertains to the guns I have and accessories i own.