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Liberty Rules
04-14-2006, 4:35 PM
What do you folks think of this modified trigger pack without a grip? The metal frame has been shortened up to the trigger guard, cleaned up, welded, and painted. The pistol grip has obviously been removed permanently. Do you think it passes? I think it should pass the legal test--there is obviously no pistol grip, nor a thumb hole stock. I think it should even pass the DOJ's over the top insistence that the hand sit above the imaginary line. What do you think?

Here are pictures from several angles.
836

837

838

Leadthrower
04-14-2006, 4:42 PM
Good job! Are you going to send in pics to get an "OK" from the DOJ, or are you just asking for feedback/people wanting one?

PonyFiveO
04-14-2006, 4:43 PM
I THINK THATS AWESOME!!! :eek:

Can you post a stock configuration pic side by side please?

...and where can I get one?

shin_en
04-14-2006, 4:43 PM
Looks very good. Did you do this yourself or was it purchased this way?

PanzerAce
04-14-2006, 5:09 PM
If thats a 94 clone, All I can say is that you should have left it alone. Hell, if i was in free america, I would have come home today with a HK 94 (Got to put a couple hundred rounds down range one that a LEO friend owns). They are damned nice rifles.

Liberty Rules
04-14-2006, 5:21 PM
Good job! Are you going to send in pics to get an "OK" from the DOJ, or are you just asking for feedback/people wanting one?

Being somewhat late to the off-list circus, I do not know whether DOJ approval is necessary or is just a good idea. Would it be required if complete rifles were attached? Or is it just a question of comfort for the end user? Or the FFL? I'm trying to get a sense of what people here think about that, plus whether they think that it would pass.

I am not personally making them, but I was the inspiration for it and I got permission to post it to gauge interest and get a consensus on whether it would pass legal muster. Depending on the advice here, I am hopeful that these will be available so that folks can get some new toys. :)

p.s. If there was a DOJ letter, I believe it would be a no-brainer. I wonder whether DOJ is still going to issue letters, though. At least before the next list, whenever that might be.

PonyFiveO
04-14-2006, 5:39 PM
I think the DOJ may still have an issue with the protruding "nub" below the reciever, so I fixed it :D

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/ponyfiveo/gripless2.jpg

SI-guru
04-14-2006, 5:44 PM
Do you need any DoJ opinion letter for the SEF to semi-auto mod also ?

Leadthrower
04-14-2006, 5:56 PM
Not so sure that it would be illegal, but I am not so sure about having any firearms without a trigger-guard (that's just asking for trouble). Do a search to see what the DOJ defines as a "Pistol-grip". I think the DOJ may still have an issue with the protruding "nub" below the reciever, so I fixed it :D

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/ponyfiveo/gripless2.jpg

Liberty Rules
04-14-2006, 6:01 PM
Not so sure that it would be illegal, but I am not so sure about having any firearms without a trigger-guard (that's just asking for trouble). Do a search to see what the DOJ defines as a "Pistol-grip".

Leadthrower, I think you misunderstood. He cropped the nub with photoshop as you see it in his new picture. The red line is simply to illustrate DOJ's imaginary line, not to imply that the trigger guard would be removed. That would be a little nutty.

Leadthrower
04-14-2006, 6:33 PM
AAHHH....Well give it a shot. Do you have a functioning rifle to test-fire it with?
I think this will do well for the people still looking for HK's/and their clones. Again good work.

50 Freak
04-14-2006, 6:57 PM
Lets get this straight......

THE OFF-LIST gun craze recently is only applicable to ARs and AKs type weapons.

You could have bought a gripless CETME or PTR a year ago with no problems.

Justang
04-14-2006, 10:21 PM
The red line is useless in this situation. At this point the "nub" is just part of the trigger guard.

Pablo
04-15-2006, 12:51 AM
That looks great!!! I'm going to try to do the same on mine.

6172crew
04-15-2006, 6:27 AM
Lets get this straight......

THE OFF-LIST gun craze recently is only applicable to ARs and AKs type weapons.

You could have bought a gripless CETME or PTR a year ago with no problems.

Yes, and Yes.:D

PTR91s have been inbound for awhile. There are some other goodies also...does anyone remember the MP5 clone receiver sold on this board? What about those cool Beretta rifle kits?, They kinda looked like a AR180 or somthing.

Richard
04-15-2006, 8:19 AM
Remember Springfield Armory SAR3 or 8's, are not listed either along with A limited number of HK41s that were manufactured at the Oberndorf/Neckar plant in West Germany, and even fewer were exported to the United States. The Santa Fe Division of the Golden State Arms Corporation located in Pasadena, California imported all HK41s manufactured in 1966.

you can see the 41's every once in a while.

SC_00_05
04-15-2006, 10:30 AM
Not so sure that it would be illegal, but I am not so sure about having any firearms without a trigger-guard (that's just asking for trouble). Do a search to see what the DOJ defines as a "Pistol-grip".
According to this, even a half sawed off pistol grip is not considered a "pistol grip" since it doen't allow for a grasp with all the fingers. The imaginary line would not apply since not all fingers can grasp it.
http://www.hunt101.com/img/396557.jpg

PonyFiveO
04-15-2006, 3:06 PM
According to this, even a half sawed off pistol grip is not considered a "pistol grip" since it doen't allow for a grasp with all the fingers. The imaginary line would not apply since not all fingers can grasp it.
http://www.hunt101.com/img/396557.jpg

Apparently, the web of the hand is still a big part of the concern, which is also outlined in the memo...

"...a grip that allows a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing."

So I would imagine that half a pistol grip would still be illegal since it would still allow the web of the hand to grasp below the action of the weapon.

SC_00_05
04-15-2006, 3:30 PM
Apparently, the web of the hand is still a big part of the concern, which is also outlined in the memo...

"...a grip that allows a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing."

So I would imagine that half a pistol grip would still be illegal since it would still allow the web of the hand to grasp below the action of the weapon.
I thought so too at first, but it says

"...a grip that allows a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing."

In other words, it must first satisfy the requirement that it has a "pistol style grasp" before the "web requirements" are ever even given any importance. A half sawn off pistol grip would allow the web to be under the trigger but it wouldn't matter since there was never a "pistol style grasp" in the first place. This is just my take on it but I believe the Barrett grip this letter says is legal would be thought of as illegal to many here.

PonyFiveO
04-15-2006, 3:43 PM
I thought so too at first, but it says

"...a grip that allows a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing."

In other words, it must first satisfy the requirement that it has a "pistol style grasp" before the "web requirements" are ever even given any importance. A half sawn off pistol grip would allow the web to be under the trigger but it wouldn't matter since there was never a "pistol style grasp" in the first place. This is just my take on it but I believe the Barrett grip this letter says is legal would be thought of as illegal to many here.

OOooooo Gotcha! If this holds true, then it will open a whole new doorway for us. It would also mean that the FAB-10 grip should be legal too?

SC_00_05
04-15-2006, 3:50 PM
OOooooo Gotcha! If this holds true, then it will open a whole new doorway for us. It would also mean that the FAB-10 grip should be legal too?
Yeah, I was pretty happy when 10th Admendment posted the letter. I'm not sure why it didn't garner more attention but as for me, I started cutting a few AR, AK, and FAL grips immediately. The FAB-10 would be very legal.

PonyFiveO
04-15-2006, 5:09 PM
Here is my rendition of how it would look like...

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/ponyfiveo/ChoppedGrip.jpg

Mud
04-15-2006, 7:37 PM
I would be a little concerned about cutting down a Pistol Grip, the courts may deem your creation as still a Pistol grip (Once a Pistol Grip, always a pistol Grip). I understand it doesn't allow for pistol style Grasp, but when the DA asks what it was before your mods you would have to say it was a Pistol Grip!:eek: I started the "Grip Alternative" Thread awhile back and think you guys should buy a Dremel and go to Tap Plastics and see what you can make.
Here is the thread:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=30887



p.s. Liberty, I like the HK design you have there. Good Luck with it.

Leadthrower
05-26-2006, 8:16 AM
So who else has tried this with their HK Clones?

Liberty Rules
05-26-2006, 5:09 PM
BTW, still waiting for the vendor to decide whether they will be offering these for sale. He's been busy and hasn't given me a definite answer, which is why I have not updated this post.

Leadthrower
05-26-2006, 6:48 PM
BTW, still waiting for the vendor to decide whether they will be offering these for sale. He's been busy and hasn't given me a definite answer, which is why I have not updated this post.
OK, keep us posted.

saki302
05-28-2006, 1:55 AM
(Once a Pistol Grip, always a pistol Grip).

Where on earth do folks dig up this crap? Only the ATF has ruled 'once a machine gun always a machine gun'.

There is no constructive possession of an AW, and registered AW's (off list) can be de-registered if evil features are removed. So what's this 'once a pistol grip' crap?
It's not a controlled part, it's a piece of plastic for frack's sake.

-Dave