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mixerman73711
07-12-2010, 9:18 AM
Ladies,

I am trying to introduce some friends of mine to shooting , but I am running into a problem. I am trying to find some information on shooting positions and women specfic training materials. The girls I am taking shooting both shoot very very well, but their stances are hindered by their... and I have thought about this but there is no other way of saying this... chest. I need some guidance, and maybe someone to point me in the right direction. If it makes a difference we tend to shoot AK's and AR's. This is not for any type of competition but rather for practical shooting skill, and to have a fun safe time.

Please help

Steyrlp10
07-12-2010, 12:39 PM
I had to change my response once I understood you're asking about rifle postions. Sorry, my forte is pistol and it's all standing, no benched or prone positions.

9mmepiphany
07-12-2010, 2:05 PM
i had to change mine too, since i mostly instruct with handguns. although i did recently get a client shooting very well with his .375 H&H Mag that he had outfitted for large bear :)

from that experience, i would say they should adopt a stance less like the Weaver and more like the Isosceles...that is facing the target more. it would look less like a traditional marksmanship stance and more along the lines of how modern Military and LEO stand when wearing body amour. it's not like either the AR or AK have that much recoil.

there are other pointers, but i don't think i have the words to describe them clearly enough to benefit you...it is really something that needs to be adapted to each person's build

mixerman73711
07-12-2010, 2:52 PM
Well thats a lot more info than I have been able to find on my own. Thank you. I will just have to try to do my best. Is there any on-line photographic refrences that anybody is aware of that I might be able to look up?

9mmepiphany
07-12-2010, 4:48 PM
sorry i don't have anything

i just wing it when i teach based on what i know about body mechanics. females have the same problem when trying to use shoulder holsters or trying to shoot handguns from a Chapman stance.

try this: have them
1. face the target
2. shoulder the rifle
3. bring the rifle to their center-line until they can align the sights

mixerman73711
07-12-2010, 5:21 PM
Alright. I will do that.

I think I would feel better if it was my wife instead of a freind.

Is there a womens specific training class out there that anybody knows about? Or does it matter, IYO?

9mmepiphany
07-12-2010, 6:34 PM
i don't know of a specific rifle class for women.

i teach anyone who will pay...but then i'm Chinese and on a fixed income ;)

it's not so much about the technique, it's about the ability to communicate in a different style...and, of course, understanding body mechanics and force vectors. that's the difference between teaching someone to do something and just having them do what you do. i base some of my teaching on Tai Chi movement, but that's even harder to explain on a forum

bjl333
07-12-2010, 7:07 PM
When we fit a shotgun to a women for skeet the the stock tend to be cut diffenently. (I'll try to descript to the best of my ability) The Bottom of the stock is cut more inward like this one http://www.galleryofguns.com/ProdImageSm/011104404.jpg ... The regular ones http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?value=020B&cat_id=011&type_id=368&content=silver-lightning-firearms have the heel of the stock sticking out. I hope this makes sense.

I have an old Colt CAR alumium stock where the butt part is very small compare to the 6-pos stock commonly in use today. The advantage of that stock is less surface on the soft tissue part of the chest. I think that'll allow more control of the firearm because it doesn't mesh the soft parts of the chest. ( I could imagine that'll probably hurt )

I don't know if all the babble make sense or not but I tried !!!

mixerman73711
07-12-2010, 7:42 PM
That makes sense, but of course the AK is slightly different. I am sure I can get a TAPCO 6-postion stock and see if that works. The thing that is making this harder is that after I worked with my wife who is 5'10" and seeing everything work the way its supposed to, it kinda clicked, that my freind is around 5'2" with a larger upper body than most and shorter arms than can comfortable hold the gun correctly, and its just not working. I am going to have to just experment with diffrent things.

Thank you again.

bjl333
07-12-2010, 8:11 PM
That makes sense, but of course the AK is slightly different.

I am sure I can get a TAPCO 6-postion stock and see if that works.


The main thing I think will help is a small buttpad (recoil pad) The smaller buttpad will allow her to stick the gun closer to where the stock needs to be. The Tapco stock is still has a butt plate thats too big, the stock I'm talking about has about 2/3 the butt surface area of the Tapco.

If she gets her own AK maybe installing an adjustable buttplate will help. That way the buttplate will be canted to fit around her chest/shoulder better.

Babbling again !!!

masameet
07-12-2010, 8:11 PM
Yeah, we short females, with our short (in comparison with men) arms, need to shoot rifles that fit us. So shorter stocks or shorter rifles. Sometimes that means shooting rifles sized for "juniors."

9mmepiphany
07-12-2010, 9:11 PM
just as an observation, the AK was sized for people of smaller stature...think Southeast Asians

masameet
07-12-2010, 9:19 PM
I think I've only benchrested/shot AK/AR-type rifles. And they were sized for -- [GASP!] -- white guys!

The only time I shot a rifle standing, in my hands, it was an old Swiss rifle with iron sights (at least, that's what I recall). I complained that I couldn't seem to shoot it. And then the rifle's owner told me he knew a woman who was a top competitor in the rifle. He explained, calmly, how she held the rifle and shot it. Chastened, I used his observations, adjusted my arms, etc., and then found I could shoot the long rifle. Not comfortably, mind you. But at least I could shoot it.

mixerman73711
07-12-2010, 11:01 PM
just as an observation, the AK was sized for people of smaller stature...think Southeast Asians

This is what I thought too, and I reccomended that they not get a NATO length stock, and to stay with the standard stocks (I have seen plenty of photos of small women with an AK slung over their shoulders) . Alas it is still a problem. Like I said I think I am going to set them up with the TAPCO 6-postion stock because her partner is not as small as she is, and is built differently.

I just think its going to take some trial and error, and hope in the process she does not get too frustrated that she looses intrest in shooting centerfire rifles.

All in all I am trying to be as profesional about this is as posssable without sounding like a chauvinist, because I want them to enjoy shooting as much as I do.

j1133s
07-14-2010, 9:57 AM
just as an observation, the AK was sized for people of smaller stature...think Southeast Asians

Aren't Russians (more or less) considered large? To think the USSR would design a gun for Southeast Asians is nice though.

For your woman friend, I think those boobs shouldn't get in the way of shooting a rifle at all. If I shoulder a rifle, my nipples are no where near the gun. Maybe the boobs is might get in the way of their hand, but they are squishable. Remember to tell you friend to bring the gun sights to her eye instead of moving her head to the sights, this may help her shoulder the rifle better.

9mmepiphany
07-14-2010, 10:47 AM
Aren't Russians (more or less) considered large? To think the USSR would design a gun for Southeast Asians is nice though.

that's what i used to think too. the way it was explained to my was that much of the USSR military was asiatic, think client states, and they also had to allow for winter clothing. the Chi-Com AKs sure seemed to fit them well.

reminds me of the Israeli Galil, when it became the South African R4. i never thought of Israelis as being small statured, but the R4, besides a change of material for the heat, has a lengthened folding buttstock for the larger Afrikaans troops

mixerman73711
07-14-2010, 2:18 PM
Aren't Russians (more or less) considered large? To think the USSR would design a gun for Southeast Asians is nice though.



For your woman friend, I think those boobs shouldn't get in the way of shooting a rifle at all. If I shoulder a rifle, my nipples are no where near the gun. Maybe the boobs is might get in the way of their hand, but they are squishable. Remember to tell you friend to bring the gun sights to her eye instead of moving her head to the sights, this may help her shoulder the rifle better.

I Know this, the standard stock is way too short for me, but the NATO stock I have on mine, and my wifes is just fine. She is built like a some sort of D&D shut-in would scrawl on his Trapper Keeper, short, and almost comicly large sized breasts. My '03A3 she can shoot from a bench ok, not great, but ok, The 10-22 is also ok from a bench, but anything other than sitting down and it looks way too conveluted, and akward, and she cant bring her eyes inline with the sights unless her neck is bent way out of alingment. Its hard to explain but it just does not look right. As for nippels, and other things.. I dont even want to ask her if thats the problem... too akward.

I will pass this information on. They are coming over this weekend for some plinking and I will work on sone things. I really feel its just going to take some time, and practice to get her comfortable shooting the AK.

9mmepiphany
07-14-2010, 4:00 PM
it occurred to me this afternoon...i'll bet you have her shouldering the buttstock too low.

have her mount the toe into the hollow of her shoulder and just bring the gun up...about 1/3 to 1/2 of the butt plate will be above her shoulder blade

mixerman73711
07-14-2010, 6:08 PM
it occurred to me this afternoon...i'll bet you have her shouldering the buttstock too low.

have her mount the toe into the hollow of her shoulder and just bring the gun up...about 1/3 to 1/2 of the butt plate will be above her shoulder blade

I thought about that, but I was worried about the recoil ( she already had some nice stock rash from the little shooting we did ) , but I think its worth a shot.( pun intended )

Hey, thanks everybody.

9mmepiphany
07-14-2010, 6:44 PM
I thought about that, but I was worried about the recoil ( she already had some nice stock rash from the little shooting we did ) , but I think its worth a shot.( pun intended )

Hey, thanks everybody.

remember that the AK is designed to be shot from the European erect head position. have her relax her shoulder (i'm assuming you already have her shooting with a dropped elbow) and keep her head erect. the drop of the comb should align the sights with her eye. if you are having her scrunch up trying to get a cheek weld, you're trying to get too much girl into a limited space

OliveCookieMonsta
07-14-2010, 7:36 PM
LOL, hmmm.... kinda different.

I'm of the shorter SE asian descent lol... and my "chest" has never gotten in the way of me being able to shoot an AR/AK... lol. I can't see the problem.

I get tired of rifles because they are heavy... but The lil M1 Carbines are nice and they are short too lol. I can't shoot as long standing with a rifle as i can with a handgun... thats the main reason i get bored with them.

The only instruction I know about is Appleseed for rifles, ... everything else is handguns for ladies... There is some training in Manteca Sportsman that they have for women... i think there is a schedule in the training/competition forum... they might have rifle training... if u are interested

mixerman73711
07-14-2010, 8:57 PM
Well I have an M1 carbine, but it costs too damn much to shoot. Its just a fit thing I guess. Friday we are going out again to plink, and I am going to try some things out. I honestly think having the stock ride sit higher up the shoulder will do wonders for accuracy, if not comfort. As for weight, you may be on to something, I will try something lighter next time around.

As much as I would like to go to Manteca Sportsman, I have had some bad experences there with their staff. Not saying its a bad place but its just not for me. Plus I have a place to shoot for free, with nobody else around.