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ianS
04-14-2006, 8:35 AM
I've done searches but I'm still not quite clear about some things.

1. One can buy a stripped lower and build it into a rifle as long as the magazine is permanantly attached to the receiver? Does it have to be welded or simple screws okay? So pistol grips and telescoping stocks are okay?

2. The "magazine" can only hold 10 but it can only be loaded with stripper clips?

3. In general why are people buying so many lowers? Are people planning to turn them all into guns and stocking up? Build them into rifles and sell them?

4. In general, do you think CA will ban and even confiscate them in the near future? Or, possible registration of such guns?

rkt88edmo
04-14-2006, 8:57 AM
It doesn't matter how you load the magazine, people just find stripper clips to be convenient. People buy many because they may not have another chance. Some people like having one gun, some people would be happy buying one a month for the rest of their lives.

Use the search function, and find your way to the special AR/AK discussion forum, browse the threads there. There are lots of threads, and lots of opinions.

Scope
04-14-2006, 4:31 PM
I'll do my best to answer your questions. However, I too am relatively new to the whole lower receiver situation so if someone thinks I have posted incorrect information please feel free to correct me.

1. One can buy a stripped lower and build it into a rifle as long as the magazine is permanantly attached to the receiver? Does it have to be welded or simple screws okay? So pistol grips and telescoping stocks are okay?

I think the DOJ preferes the permanent solution. Most people have opted for using screws in some fashion. For example, a counter-sunk set screw that requires and allen wrench to remove. What's primarily important is that the attached magazine must require tools to be removed. Anything that can be dismantled by hand is unacceptable.

2. The "magazine" can only hold 10 but it can only be loaded with stripper clips?

What was shown to me was that a pin is removed and the gun is opened (folded) like a break-open shotgun. You can then load the internal magazine, close the gun and insert the pin and you're ready to go.

3. In general why are people buying so many lowers? Are people planning to turn them all into guns and stocking up? Build them into rifles and sell them?

Like rkt88edmo said, I think the fear of having the lowers banned soon is motivating people to make hastey purchases. As for why so many, I guess people think its better to have it and risk not wanting it in the future than to want it and not be able to get it. Some of the purchases might just be for the novelty of it.

4. In general, do you think CA will ban and even confiscate them in the near future? Or, possible registration of such guns?

Most think that the new lowers will be listed and we'll be given a chance to register them as real assault weapons. Others think a larger ban is coming. For now its all just speculation.

Stanze
04-15-2006, 1:02 AM
Possible outcomes.

You might score a fully functional registered "Assault Weapon".:cool:

You definetley scored a lower WAY cheaper than what a FAB-10 or Vulcan goes for!:)

If our non-listed AR lowers get pryed from our cold dead fingers from the DOJ, you're only out your life and a hundred bucks or so.:D

stealthmode
04-15-2006, 1:15 AM
so would it be legal to build an 80% lower if you finish it with a different magazine catch so it is not removeable?

grammaton76
04-15-2006, 2:22 AM
so would it be legal to build an 80% lower if you finish it with a different magazine catch so it is not removeable?

Technically perhaps, but read the FAQ - 80% lowers are risky because they can't realistically be expected to enjoy Harott protection - which is what prevents "an AK is an AK is an AK" from being a valid basis for a state-wide ban.

If the 80% situation gets cleared up later on, in a favorable way, I'll end up building a ridiculously large number of AK's and RPK's over the next few years. But otherwise, I would steer clear of it if I were you.

Jedi
04-15-2006, 6:46 AM
I've done searches but I'm still not quite clear about some things.

In your searches, did you fail to miss the RED link at the top of every page that says "CALIFORNIA AR/AK "SERIES" ASSAULT WEAPON FAQ"? If you read that, it can answer at least two of your questions out right. Heck, on the home page for CalGuns there is a little section stating "Urgent: Get your AR lowers while you can!" with a link to the "AR/AK and off list rifle discussion" forum that has answered all of your questions at least 10 times. Sorry, I have only been active in this forum for a short time and I'm already getting annoyed with the redundant questions about off list lowers... I can't imagine how the long time posters can take it!


1. One can buy a stripped lower and build it into a rifle as long as the magazine is permanantly attached to the receiver? Does it have to be welded or simple screws okay? So pistol grips and telescoping stocks are okay?


Read the law, read the FAQ, read half of the posts in the "AR/AK and off list rifle discussion" forum. The law states that the magazine needs to be attached in such a manner that it requires a tool to be removed. That doesn't mean it has to be welded, although the only receivers that the DOJ has given their nod to have been the FAB-10, which has no external magazine, and the Vulcan, which has the magazine epoxied in permanently.

Of course this all presumes that you wish to have a pistol grip on your rifle. The other option is no pistol grip, thumb hole stock, flash suppressor, or other "evil" features and detachable magazines (10 round if you didn't purchase any prior to the ban on 11+ capacity magazines). Amazingly, this is all covered in the FAQ and is actually pretty well spelled out in PC 12276.1.


2. The "magazine" can only hold 10 but it can only be loaded with stripper clips?


Not sure where the idea that it can only be loaded with stripper clips came from. Some people do use stripper clips to aid in loading their neutered rifles, but there is no mandate. Use your thumb, use your nose, what ever works for you, just don't use a tool to detach the "non-removable" magazine or you will instantly make your legal rifle into a felony AW. (That is assuming you have a pistol grip or other "evil" features.)


3. In general why are people buying so many lowers? Are people planning to turn them all into guns and stocking up? Build them into rifles and sell them?


The same thing happened, all be it on a lesser scale, prior to the original ban. The only difference is that people are purchasing stripped lowers now instead of complete rifles. The idea here is to get it while you can, because in CA gun rights are doomed and the next target is these lower receivers.


4. In general, do you think CA will ban and even confiscate them in the near future? Or, possible registration of such guns?


Confiscation would be a VERY bad move on the DOJ's part. That could easily be seen as the government rounding up the citizen's guns and would touch off a VERY serious backlash. More likely, the DOJ will update the list of banned assault weapons, sometimes called the "Kasler List", to include all of the more recent brands of receivers. After the mass hemorrhage has been addressed, the legislature will introduce a new law preventing this from happening again.

When the DOJ updates the list, they will need to allow all legally purchased receivers to be registered. Once registered, they will be considered assault weapons and, therefore, will no longer be subject to the restrictions in PC 12276.1. It should be noted that there was a memo published by the DOJ stating that any newly registered assault weapons would not be exempt from PC 12276.1, but that is not in harmony with the existing laws and most people see it simply as an attempt by the DOJ to scary people into not purchasing the receivers.

Please read more... remember:
http://clerccenter.gallaudet.edu/Literacy/images/RIFLogo2.jpg

PLINK
04-15-2006, 7:06 PM
When the DOJ updates the list, they will need to allow all legally purchased receivers to be registered. Once registered, they will be considered assault weapons and, therefore, will no longer be subject to the restrictions in PC 12276.1. It should be noted that there was a memo published by the DOJ stating that any newly registered assault weapons would not be exempt from PC 12276.1, but that is not in harmony with the existing laws and most people see it simply as an attempt by the DOJ to scary people into not purchasing the receivers.

So in the memo are they saying that the off list lowers will not be able to have AW features even though the are banned? Does this mean no removeable mag, pistol grip, tele stock, etc? Meaning a banned neutered AR? I know this is just a memo and does not really mean anything but is that what they are saying?

Do you forsee any CA residents or FFL's going to jail or being fined for legally selling/ buying these lowers. I don't have a OLL but it is all I think about. Never really cared for owning a AR until recently. More of a pistol guy myself.

blacklisted
04-15-2006, 7:11 PM
So in the memo are they saying that the off list lowers will not be able to have AW features even though the are banned? Does this mean no removeable mag, pistol grip, tele stock, etc? Meaning a banned neutered AR? I know this is just a memo and does not really mean anything but is that what they are saying?

Basically, yes.

EBWhite
04-15-2006, 7:31 PM
Here is my perspective:

1. One can buy a stripped lower and build it into a rifle as long as the magazine is permanantly attached to the receiver? Does it have to be welded or simple screws okay? So pistol grips and telescoping stocks are okay?

Currently, according to the DOJ a magazine must be epoxied as screwed to make it fixed. This can be done with a sporting mag conversion kit and some black silicone at the base of the magwell. However, until a letter is from the doj, running a detached with no evils is the 100% legal way.


2. The "magazine" can only hold 10 but it can only be loaded with stripper clips?

Yes, 10 round max for fixed and can be loaded by stripper or by hand. Detachable mags can be any capacity.

3. In general why are people buying so many lowers? Are people planning to turn them all into guns and stocking up? Build them into rifles and sell them?

The reason for buying many lowers is knowing once they are banned you cannot buy any more of them later. Many people want one 24 inch hunter, 16 inch battle rifle, one pistol cartridge upper, one vietnam style 20 inch. Also, having extras wont hurt you, they will alway be work what you paid or more. If a fed ban is put in place, they will be preban for future use and value will double or triple.

4. In general, do you think CA will ban and even confiscate them in the near future? Or, possible registration of such guns?

Most likely a confiscation won't happen. However, they might try to pull and SKS buyback type deal but i doubt it. DOJ has done illegal things in the past, dont put it past them again. Regisration is an option but i don't think they will ever get listed. My opinion is future legislation banning any AR/AK type weapon or any detachable non sporting gun. Sporting guns must be approved prior to sale in CA by the DOJ- similar to safe handgun law.

Jedi
04-15-2006, 7:50 PM
Do you forsee any CA residents or FFL's going to jail or being fined for legally selling/ buying these lowers.

Well, no one can predict what one of the liberal police agencies and liberal DAís will do. History is filled with people who were wrongfully imprisoned, only to be released when their case made it to an appellate court. We are in California and anything is possible. That being said, it is important to understand that we, the off list owners, have the law and precedence on our side. This particular issue was addressed in the Harrott vs. The County of Kings decision.


Only if the weapon at issue is designated in section 12276, subdivision (a) or the Attorney General followed the procedure specified in section 12276.5 to have the firearm designated as an assault weapon, and thereafter included it in the list required by section 12276.5, subdivision (h), is the firearm at issue an 'assault weapon" within the meaning of the Act. Thus, it is only in ruling on a petition filed by the Attorney General requesting a firearm be declared an assault weapon
that section 12276, subdivision (e) becomes relevant.

In other words, if it isnít listed under PC 12276 and is has not been listed in accordance with PC 12276.5, itís legal. If someone were to be wrongfully prosecuted for possession of an unregistered Assault Rifle, this precedence could be sited in their defense and would most likely lead to an acquittal. Again, however, I must remind you that we are in California and anything is possible.

DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed here are just that, opinions. No legal advice should be construed from these statements. Do your own research into the laws and make your own decision.

filefish
04-16-2006, 10:39 PM
3. In general why are people buying so many lowers? Are people planning to turn them all into guns and stocking up? Build them into rifles and sell them?




Becaus it beats the crap out of collecting hummels :D

sac7000
04-17-2006, 6:42 AM
" Acquire, assemble, pin, shoot, shoot, shoot, enjoy! "

6172crew
04-17-2006, 7:16 AM
LOL @ bumfights guy.