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1911Operator
07-11-2010, 7:07 PM
has anyone ever seen or operated one of these? can we own these kits in CA if we disconnect the stock? with out a stock its pretty much a rail system for you glock isnt it? so I would think its ok to own? here is the link to them:

http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?1770-FAB-Defense-KPOS-Glock-stock

I think its very pricey since its the same price of a new glock! but it is a nice kit. wouldnt mind owning one.

1911_Mitch
07-11-2010, 7:47 PM
Why would anyone want to bring a pistol to a rifle fight?

1911Operator
07-11-2010, 7:55 PM
Why would anyone want to bring a pistol to a rifle fight?

more compact, easy to move around, very light and can be accurate to long distances. I really like it myself.

edit:
standard 9mm (115gr bullet) velocity is about 1,200
standard .223 (55gr bullet) velocity is about 3,200

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223. you can also get +p 9mm's in 147gr too. although .223's are peircing rounds, they wont stop someone like a 9mm would. 9mm is also cheaper then .223 , but both are very easy to get a hold of! I was issued a bran spankin new M4 for 3 years, they are nice but think the round is a little over rated. I wouldnt mind a AR in 9mm though.

C.W.M.V.
07-11-2010, 8:02 PM
Seems like it would be perfect for LE. Not everyone has a rifle in their car, but with this you could extend the reach and accuracy of a pistol.

Oldnoob
07-11-2010, 8:13 PM
Why would anyone want to bring a pistol to a rifle fight?

It isn't taking a pistol to a rifle fight. It was more like taking a carbine to a pistol fight.

I personally think those are great idea. But sadly our gun laws are too rigid for us to use this type of product.

Lagduf
07-11-2010, 9:24 PM
You guys are telling me that if we could get SBR's in this state that you wouldn't get one?

Looks like a lot of fun.

1911Operator
07-11-2010, 9:29 PM
You guys are telling me that if we could get SBR's in this state that you wouldn't get one?

Looks like a lot of fun.
oviously every one would! but....thats never gonna happen. never ever ever eeeeevveeeerrrrrr......never....ever...never ever! eeeeeveeeeeerrrrrrrrrr!
NEVEEERRRR
EVEEERR
GONNA HAPPEN

Josh3239
07-11-2010, 9:44 PM
more compact, easy to move around, very light and can be accurate to long distances.

It is none of those things if you add that piece to it, kinda defeats the purpose of a handgun. That being said, without the buttstock at all in your possession it is legal. Even being near or owning the buttstock could trigger constructive intent.

Corbin Dallas
07-11-2010, 9:53 PM
I don't get it. What does it do?

I don't see a longer barrel so what's the point? Just to have a stock? Close quarters combat? Why not just use it as a pistol?

1911Operator
07-11-2010, 9:54 PM
It is none of those things if you add that piece to it, kinda defeats the purpose of a handgun. That being said, without the buttstock at all in your possession it is legal. Even being near or owning the buttstock could trigger constructive intent.
thats a good point, but in that case, we couldnt have mag rebuild kits then right?

Josh3239
07-11-2010, 10:02 PM
thats a good point, but in that case, we couldnt have mag rebuild kits then right?

Why? Because of constructive intent? Constructive intent only goes for NFA. So if you have a Glock pistol upper that can accept a buttstock and a buttstock lying just next to eachother, not even touching. You could be found guilty of having an SBR. California has no constructive intent laws for rebuild kits.

1911Operator
07-11-2010, 10:10 PM
Why? Because of constructive intent? Constructive intent only goes for NFA. So if you have a Glock pistol upper that can accept a buttstock and a buttstock lying just next to eachother, not even touching. You could be found guilty of having an SBR. California has no constructive intent laws for rebuild kits.

oh ic

SJgunguy24
07-11-2010, 10:11 PM
I don't get it. What does it do?

I don't see a longer barrel so what's the point? Just to have a stock? Close quarters combat? Why not just use it as a pistol?

3 points of contact will give the shooter a more stable platform to shoot from. If I had my my choice I'd go with a mech tech in 10mm, IMO the ultimate SHTF set up. Glock 20 on the hip, you need a longer shot, slap that frame into the Mech Tech and now you have 16" of barrel to push that 10mm round.

Oh thats illegal as all hell too without the NFA paperwork

mswanson223
07-11-2010, 10:22 PM
Hell yeah Id get one.

Corbin Dallas
07-12-2010, 9:01 AM
3 points of contact will give the shooter a more stable platform to shoot from. If I had my my choice I'd go with a mech tech in 10mm, IMO the ultimate SHTF set up. Glock 20 on the hip, you need a longer shot, slap that frame into the Mech Tech and now you have 16" of barrel to push that 10mm round.

Oh thats illegal as all hell too without the NFA paperwork


Ok, I get that the MechTech has a 16" barrel which would greatly improve accuracy, but this thing does NOT have that.

It's basically a factory pistol with a stock. Touted as being great for CQB.

I'm sorry, but I just don't get it. I don't see the advantage over just holding your pistol.

At distances less that 5 yards, I'd be willing to bet I can get more rounds on target faster with my pistol than anyone could with this add on stock.

The only advantage I see is the ability to add a red-dot sight.

Now if you were adding this setup to a G18 I could fully understand why.


I think this was a better design...

HYqHe7-zKAc

evidens83
07-12-2010, 9:16 AM
Hell yeah Id get one.

I'm there with you brotha :D

joefreas
07-12-2010, 9:18 AM
more compact, easy to move around, very light and can be accurate to long distances. I really like it myself.

edit:
standard 9mm (115gr bullet) velocity is about 1,200
standard .223 (55gr bullet) velocity is about 3,200

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223. you can also get +p 9mm's in 147gr too. although .223's are peircing rounds, they wont stop someone like a 9mm would. 9mm is also cheaper then .223 , but both are very easy to get a hold of! I was issued a bran spankin new M4 for 3 years, they are nice but think the round is a little over rated. I wouldnt mind a AR in 9mm though.

I had a semi auto 9mm rifle and I wasn't very impressed. It was definitley not a match to an M4 riifle. Although the KPOS does look fun to shoot for 25-100 yard steel.

J-cat
07-12-2010, 9:25 AM
Harder hitting 9mm???

1911su16b870
07-12-2010, 9:32 AM
As a gun guy, I think this little SBR pistol carbine is neat...but an invention to a problem that doesn't exist. The Magpul Glock in a box thing is also neat due to it's concealablility. If you need to go to a carbine, you need to go to a major caliber and not a pistol caliber. You will not have time to reconfigure your duty sidearm into this contraption...it will have to be pre-configured and ready to go...but your ballistics are the same as a side arm. It is not enough gun. The current influx of 7.5-in AR pistols and the AK pistols are in rifle calibers and just as concealable with over twice the projectile velocity of hand guns and in CQC distances (less than 100 yards) will be enough gun.

1911Operator
07-12-2010, 9:50 AM
Harder hitting 9mm???

yeah, 9mm will hit harder the .223 because of 3x more weight , slower velocity, bigger in diameter. .223 is just a peircing round. unless your using top notch HP's. then it will do some damage but those can be very costly.

CSACANNONEER
07-12-2010, 10:05 AM
yeah, 9mm will hit harder the .223 because of 3x more weight , slower velocity, bigger in diameter. .223 is just a peircing round. unless your using top notch HP's. then it will do some damage but those can be very costly.

9mm will not "hit harder" than .223 or 5.56. It will probably transfer more energy but, it will actually hit the target with less energy than a .223/5.56.

ZombieTactics
07-12-2010, 10:13 AM
...
standard 9mm (115gr bullet) velocity is about 1,200
standard .223 (55gr bullet) velocity is about 3,200

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223. you can also get +p 9mm's in 147gr too. although .223's are peircing rounds, they wont stop someone like a 9mm would. ...

Standard 9mm (115gr bullet) velocity is about 1,200fps = about 350 foot pounds force
Standard .223 (55gr bullet) velocity is about 3,200fps = about 1400 foot pounds force

A 9mm FMJ bullet hitting soft tissue makes a nice 9mm sized hole, with little damage to the surrounding tissue. A .223/5.56mm FMJ round hitting soft tissue usually creates significant cavitation, often inflicting major damage over an area about the size of a handball. A 9mm round narrowly missing the spleen or heart ... misses it. A .223/5.56mm round narrowly missing the spleen or heart often causes the organ to rupture.

A 9mm FMJ bullet hitting bone can break the bone quite nicely. A .223/5.56mm FMJ round hitting bone shatters the bone into little razor sharp shards which are then blown throughout the surrounding tissue. People have been killed standing next to someone shot in this manner. Pieces of bone are often found inches deep in surrounding wood beams or trees.

If we are talking about optional round types, the effects of ballistic tip or HP .223/5.56mm ammunition are devastatingly superior to anything in 9mm.

Given the simple fact that a rifle is inherently more accurate to begin with (longer barrel and sight radius), it's also more likely to actually result in a good hit to begin with.

The above is a simple application of physics and common knowledge among paramedics, ER doctors, forensic pathologists and medical examiners.

I'd like to know in what sense is 9mm ever "harder hitting" or more likely to "stop someone" comparing shot-to-shot, wound-to-wound? (I do know of some cases where .223/5.56mm will simply penetrate cleanly with little cavitative effect. In these cases it's not much better than 22LR, and the 9mm would be superior. These are the more rare instances, however.)

There are reasons why the primary weapon of every military unit on the planet is a rifle of some kind, and not a pistol.

1911Operator
07-12-2010, 10:19 AM
ok maybe i had my facts wrong, but lets get back on topic with this KPOS system. does anyone think that its actually worth it?

-hanko
07-12-2010, 10:19 AM
yeah, 9mm will hit harder the .223 because of 3x more weight , slower velocity, bigger in diameter. .223 is just a peircing round. unless your using top notch HP's. then it will do some damage but those can be very costly.
Completely wrong:rolleyes: By your logic, a .45acp target load scooting along at 700 fps weighing 200gr or so will out-do the 9mm...where did you come up with that theory??

Is KPOS synonymous with Kaboom-POS??:D

OP, google "nfa sbr"...not at all good idea if you posses a glock that the KPOS will fit.

hth

-hanko

stormy_clothing
07-12-2010, 10:28 AM
The guys that use these are the same that can buy a FA conversion for the glock which is where it really shines - the extended blast shield helps keep the front end down and it's nice having 30 rounds of 9mm for a close gun battle in a setting where you don't want to be popping off rifle rounds - better this than an uzi since there small enough you can carry 2 and it's a glock so point click shoot. I'd also venture to guess that the people to mainly utilize these aren't forum newbs trying to debate ammo efficiency when there not even privy to the rounds it was designed for.

1911Operator
07-12-2010, 10:49 AM
I'd also venture to guess that the people to mainly utilize these aren't forum newbs trying to debate ammo efficiency when there not even privy to the rounds it was designed for.

ok get over it, guess you never made a mistake huh? shot at some body armor and tell me which round knocks it down, the 9mm or .223! Ive dumped 50 rounds out of my M4 into a flack vest and just holes all the way through. 2 rounds out of a beretta and it went down. hence "knock down power"

ZombieTactics
07-12-2010, 11:34 AM
... shot at some body armor and tell me which round knocks it down, the 9mm or .223! Ive dumped 50 rounds out of my M4 into a flack vest and just holes all the way through. 2 rounds out of a beretta and it went down. hence "knock down power" ... Please stop digging. We aren't talking about shooting inanimate objects. "Knock down power" is an established myth, as long as the laws of physics in the known universe haven't changed recently. Even a one-ounce shotgun slug which fully expands and thereby delivers its entire kinetic payload is unlikely to "knock down" any humanoid-type animal ... unless it's inherently unstable (maybe drunk, lol) to begin with.

For further study: CLICK HERE FOR FBI REPORT, "Handgun Wounding Factors ..." (http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf)

Or for fun watch:
QCzD5uhSViY

-hanko
07-12-2010, 11:37 AM
ok get over it, guess you never made a mistake huh? shot at some body armor and tell me which round knocks it down, the 9mm or .223! Ive dumped 50 rounds out of my M4 into a flack vest and just holes all the way through. 2 rounds out of a beretta and it went down. hence "knock down power"
Did the 9mm penetrate as they knocked it down??

-hanko

1911Operator
07-12-2010, 12:00 PM
Did the 9mm penetrate as they knocked it down??

-hanko

we put a old vest around a sandbag, stood it up, shot it with our m4's and the round just went through all the way. when we shot it with the 9mm the first round tore it up pretty good because there was already holes from the .223's we shot, but it did not go through. the bullet was caught by the flack vest, but it did make the vest and sand bag tilt back a few degree's. the second round was placed a little higher (maybe 3 inches higher COT) and it dint go trough either, but it did manage to knock it over on its back. we just stood it back up and shot it with a AK and M240B machinegun. it just tore it up to hell after that.:D

1911Operator
07-12-2010, 12:04 PM
Please stop digging. We aren't talking about shooting inanimate objects. "Knock down power" is an established myth, as long as the laws of physics in the known universe haven't changed recently. Even a one-ounce shotgun slug which fully expands and thereby delivers its entire kinetic payload is unlikely to "knock down" any humanoid-type animal ... unless it's inherently unstable (maybe drunk, lol) to begin with.

For further study: CLICK HERE FOR FBI REPORT, "Handgun Wounding Factors ..." (http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf)

Or for fun watch:
QCzD5uhSViY

wow! thats a cool video, but im not talking about "blow someone away power" im talking about what take less shots to bring a person down? look at this chart. they dont have .223 but they do have a 9mm and a 22WMR witch im guessing is the closest thing to a .223 on this chart. http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm
it gives you a percentage on how likely it is to stop someone with one shot.

jdberger
07-12-2010, 12:15 PM
Like the man said....stop digging.

You were wrong. You made a mistake. You acknowledged it.

Let it go.

1911Operator
07-12-2010, 12:21 PM
Like the man said....stop digging.

You were wrong. You made a mistake. You acknowledged it.

Let it go.

maybe maybe not. and im not digging anything. id still chose a 9mm over a .223 anyways. its got a better chance to drop someone then a .223. and besides, if you want me to let it go, why did you post your comment? your going off topic again.

Corbin Dallas
07-12-2010, 12:25 PM
wow! thats a cool video, but im not talking about "blow someone away power" im talking about what take less shots to bring a person down? look at this chart. they dont have .223 but they do have a 9mm and a 22WMR witch im guessing is the closest thing to a .223 on this chart. http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm
it gives you a percentage on how likely it is to stop someone with one shot.

Wow, you really are naive aren't you? 22WMR is NOT the same as 223/556.

But if you believe it is, go for it. You can also believe that a 9mm has better stopping power over the 223/556 round.

I guess our military should ditch all their M4's and whip out the Beretta M9 from now on.

Seriously, just stop posting. The more you open your mouth, the more we know you don't know a thing.

tacticalcity
07-12-2010, 12:27 PM
Looks like an SBR to me, which means a no-go here in CA. Not sure I would want one anyway. I'd rather keep my Glock as a handgun and save the specialized stuff for a firearm designed specifically for that roll. Thinking UZI, MAC-10, MP5 (the really short version), KRISS (not the civilian hack-job) and so forth all designed to be concealled under a heavy coat while delivering maximum fire-power. Trying to turn a Glock into a machine pistol/sub-machine gun just seems wrong to me.

As for 1911Operator, he is nice enough guy. Had lots of contact with him on this forum before. Cut him some slack.

FYI: I really enjoyed watching the clip from MythBusters you posted. Thanks. Watching that sort of stuff is a nice way to spend a lunch break.

i1800collect
07-12-2010, 12:30 PM
they dont have .223 but they do have a 9mm and a 22WMR witch im guessing is the closest thing to a .223 on this chart.

Lolwut???

.223 (55gr bullet) = ~1300 ft-lbf
.22 WMR (50gr bullet) = ~300 ft-lbf

stormy_clothing
07-12-2010, 12:31 PM
what 223? 75gr black hills, 100gr subsonic, 80 grain - vs what 100gr +P 9mm or 147gr +P or +P+ ? how about safety slugs ? incendiary ? stuff I can't tell you about but could probably get if I owned a fully auto sbr glock ?

1911Operator
07-12-2010, 12:32 PM
Wow, you really are naive aren't you? 22WMR is NOT the same as 223/556.

But if you believe it is, go for it. You can also believe that a 9mm has better stopping power over the 223/556 round.

I guess our military should ditch all their M4's and whip out the Beretta M9 from now on.

Seriously, just stop posting. The more you open your mouth, the more we know you don't know a thing.
im pretty sure I said "I THINK ITS THE CLOSEST TO A .223 ON THE CHART" , and a comment coming from you who thinks 1.17 ounces is a "HUGE" difference! :whistling:

1911Operator
07-12-2010, 12:37 PM
Wow, you really are naive aren't you? 22WMR is NOT the same as 223/556.

But if you believe it is, go for it. You can also believe that a 9mm has better stopping power over the 223/556 round.

I guess our military should ditch all their M4's and whip out the Beretta M9 from now on.

Seriously, just stop posting. The more you open your mouth, the more we know you don't know a thing.

and by the way stop bring a troll, and thread crapping! if you want go and start your own thread.:p

elSquid
07-12-2010, 12:43 PM
9mm Ball:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/9mm%20US%20M882.jpg

5.56 M193 FMJ:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/M193.jpg

From:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

As for the KPOS, if it was legal to do so, I'd probably buy one and toss my G17 in it. Looks like fun!

-- Michael

ZombieTactics
07-12-2010, 12:47 PM
wow! thats a cool video, but im not talking about "blow someone away power" im talking about what take less shots to bring a person down?
In that case, you are using the term "knockdown power" incorrectly. You really mean "stopping power".

look at this chart. they dont have .223 but they do have a 9mm and a 22WMR witch im guessing is the closest thing to a .223 on this chart. ...it gives you a percentage on how likely it is to stop someone with one shot. Again ... digging a deeper hole as you go. Neither 22WMR nor 9mm is even marginally close to the power of a standard .223/5.56mm round. You can see that readily by simply noting that the 22WMR generates 174 foot lbs. of force at muzzle, the most powerful 9mm round listed comes in at 474 ... and .223/5.56 (as noted earlier in the thread) is about 1400 foot pounds force.

I've covered this already but it bears repeating. The 22WMR and 9mm rounds (all handgun rounds, really) will make neat holes approximately the size of the bullet. A rifle round like .223/5.56mm will create devastating cavitation effects resulting in a much larger wound profile.

Back to the point regarding the topic of this thread: A PDW-type stock like the KPOS offers an advantage over a simple pistol stock only to the degree that it confers greater accuracy. A 9mm round simply does not have better "stopping power" than a suitable .223/5.56mm round by any stretch of anyone's fevered imagination to the contrary.

ZombieTactics
07-12-2010, 12:55 PM
... id still chose a 9mm over a .223 anyways. its got a better chance to drop someone then a .223. ...
It absolutely does not. I am told you are a nice guy. The fact that you did not have a clue prior to this discussion doesn't mean you're an idiot, and I am not calling you one.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but what we're talking about here isn't a matter of opinion. The facts are simply contrary to what you have supposed. Please try to open your mind here and learn something.

-hanko
07-12-2010, 12:59 PM
we put a old vest around a sandbag, stood it up, shot it with our m4's and the round just went through all the way. when we shot it with the 9mm the first round tore it up pretty good because there was already holes from the .223's we shot, but it did not go through. the bullet was caught by the flack vest, but it did make the vest and sand bag tilt back a few degree's. the second round was placed a little higher (maybe 3 inches higher COT) and it dint go trough either, but it did manage to knock it over on its back. we just stood it back up and shot it with a AK and M240B machinegun. it just tore it up to hell after that.:D
You do understand that unless you put holes in the bad guy he's not dead, he's just temporarily down??;)

-hanko

jdberger
07-12-2010, 1:03 PM
You do understand that unless you put holes in the bad guy he's not dead, he's just temporarily down??;)

-hanko

By the OP's reckoning, a baseball bat to the chest has more "knockdown power" than a 9mm.

:rolleyes:

1911Operator
07-12-2010, 1:05 PM
You do understand that unless you put holes in the bad guy he's not dead, he's just temporarily down??;)

-hanko

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y134/boss_406/beating-a-dead-horse.gif :D yeah I know, ive been shot before, in my left knee. its very temporary and I was still able to function exept I couldnt walk or move around too much. and dont ask cause I dont like to talk about it.

1911Operator
07-12-2010, 1:06 PM
By the OP's reckoning, a baseball bat to the chest has more "knockdown power" than a 9mm.

:rolleyes:
still off topic! go start your own thread troll :P

jdberger
07-12-2010, 1:16 PM
still off topic! go start your own thread troll :P

Threads have a life of their own, buddy.

We've established that the KPOS is an NFA violation. That point is moot.

Now we're working on disabusing you of the notion that 9mm has a better ability to "end the fight" than 223.

Just trying to help.

1911Operator
07-12-2010, 1:21 PM
Threads have a life of their own, buddy.

We've established that the KPOS is an NFA violation. That point is moot.

Now we're working on disabusing you of the notion that 9mm has a better ability to "end the fight" than 9mm.

Just trying to help.

might want to edit that "buddy" :D

1911Operator
07-12-2010, 2:01 PM
the nice thing about these KPOS is the ability to have one weapon system (glock 19 or glock 17) and convert into a SBR. (if we were out of state) both guns use the same mags and same caliber. so stocking up on 9mm and 33rd mags, with a quality red dot would make a great zombie killer!

ZombieTactics
07-12-2010, 2:06 PM
It might be helpful to know why you think 9mm will stop better/faster/fewer hits ... than a typical .223/5.56mm? Are you hung up on the size of the round or something, and just assume that bigger means badder?

308SASS
07-12-2010, 2:13 PM
the nice thing about these KPOS is the ability to have one weapon system (glock 19 or glock 17) and convert into a SBR. (if we were out of state) both guns use the same mags and same caliber. so stocking up on 9mm and 33rd mags, with a quality red dot would make a great zombie killer!

LMFAO

Just because you cross a state line doesn't mean that you can convert your weapon into an NFA item.

As far as KPOS or any other pistol carbine conversions go - they are twice as fun than in normal config, multiply the fun factor by another 10 if host has happy switch.

1911Operator
07-12-2010, 2:19 PM
It might be helpful to know why you think 9mm will stop better/faster/fewer hits ... than a typical .223/5.56mm? Are you hung up on the size of the round or something, and just assume that bigger means badder?

I know not all the energy is transfered from a bullet to its target. a 223 will go right threw a person and come out the end. oviously the exit hole will be bigger but compared to a 147gr, or 127gr winchester T-series... heavier round, bigger expansion= most of damage done within the body and not while it exits the body. I have seen plenty of balistic tests done with gel and the .223 does good deal of damage but the length it takes to do it, its almost outside the body.

1911Operator
07-12-2010, 2:50 PM
LMFAO

Just because you cross a state line doesn't mean that you can convert your weapon into an NFA item.

As far as KPOS or any other pistol carbine conversions go - they are twice as fun than in normal config, multiply the fun factor by another 10 if host has happy switch.
oviously! but what are the chances of getting one here compared to ..lets say...indiana, oregon, arizona, georgia, florida, and the other 40 states? I was stationed in Georgia and almost put in the paper work for a silencer for one of my guns. $200 tax stamp...no big deal, 4 months wait time...no biggie either, but figuring out what to do with it before I come back to california...now thats gonna be a problem. and thats why i dint get it.

CSACANNONEER
07-12-2010, 4:04 PM
the nice thing about these KPOS is the ability to have one weapon system (glock 19 or glock 17) and convert into a SBR. (if we were out of state) both guns use the same mags and same caliber. so stocking up on 9mm and 33rd mags, with a quality red dot would make a great zombie killer!

Why don't you just get a C&R handgun that comes with a stock and has been exempted from the NFA list? That stupid system that started this thread is sold to mall ninja type LEAs and tacticool civilians. Why would anyone want one of those over a gun that was designed to be a subgun in the first place?

oviously! but what are the chances of getting one here compared to ..lets say...indiana, oregon, arizona, georgia, florida, and the other 40 states? I was stationed in Georgia and almost put in the paper work for a silencer for one of my guns. $200 tax stamp...no big deal, 4 months wait time...no biggie either, but figuring out what to do with it before I come back to california...now thats gonna be a problem. and thats why i dint get it.

Sounds like you don't know much about NFA items. There's a better chance at getting a SBR in Ca than many other states! In fact, you can LEGALLY get a +50 year old C&R SBR or SBS in Ca already! If you jump through the right hoops, you can get a new SBR in Ca. This is not the case in many other states.

ZombieTactics
07-12-2010, 4:12 PM
I know not all the energy is transfered from a bullet to its target. a 223 will go right threw a person and come out the end. oviously the exit hole will be bigger but compared to a 147gr, or 127gr winchester T-series... heavier round, bigger expansion= most of damage done within the body and not while it exits the body. I have seen plenty of balistic tests done with gel and the .223 does good deal of damage but the length it takes to do it, its almost outside the body.You seem to fail to really understand the physics involved, which I think I have gone to some length attempting to explain. Everything I have posted so far is a matter of fact, not opinion. I'll have a go at it again in an attempt to get you to understand what every expert in the field already knows, and what has been proven over-n-over so many times that it's ridiculous.

It is not only the size of entry/exit wounds which matter, but let's start there.

In the case of handgun rounds, almost all will create an entry wound slightly smaller than the diameter of the round itself. This is due to the fact that skin is stretchy and there is insufficient friction to create a tearing effect. The internal wound channel is about the same unless a major organ is affected. In cases where there is an exit wound FMJ rounds create the same type of exit wound, while expanding rounds sometimes create a somewhat larger hole depending upon how well they expand. (Most HP handgun rounds never fully expand in actual human tissue, despite what gel tests might lead you to believe.) In almost all cases handgun round result in surprisingly little blood loss. The internal damage is limited to only whatever the projectile actually touched. There is insufficient energy to create cavitation or shock wave effects. Again, these are FACTS, as can be verified by talking to any medical examiner or ER doctor.

Rifle rounds - like .223/5.56mm are a different story altogether. The point of entry is no bigger than the size of the round, but the internal damage is quite severe. Unless the bullet tracks cleanly through very soft tissue, you'll see a massive shockwave/cavitation cavity starting at about 10cm in, generally creating a pulpy mass of utterly liquefied tissue. This generally doesn't get any bigger than a baseball, and the projectile then looses velocity quickly as it expends energy. The fact that it looses energy causes a drop in speed and a resulting return to non-cavitating track as it exits the body. the exit wound can be quite small or very large depending upon where the cavitation effect begins/ends. Blood loss and internal damage is significantly greater than with handgun rounds. ER doctors and paramedics can almost always immediately recognize handgun vs. rifle wounds, as the differences are really that obvious.

I can go on if you like, but I have no intention of doing so if you are fundamentally unteachable.

1911Operator
07-12-2010, 4:43 PM
You seem to fail to really understand the physics involved, which I think I have gone to some length attempting to explain. Everything I have posted so far is a matter of fact, not opinion. I'll have a go at it again in an attempt to get you to understand what every expert in the field already knows, and what has been proven over-n-over so many times that it's ridiculous.

It is not only the size of entry/exit wounds which matter, but let's start there.

In the case of handgun rounds, almost all will create an entry wound slightly smaller than the diameter of the round itself. This is due to the fact that skin is stretchy and there is insufficient friction to create a tearing effect. The internal wound channel is about the same unless a major organ is affected. In cases where there is an exit wound FMJ rounds create the same type of exit wound, while expanding rounds sometimes create a somewhat larger hole depending upon how well they expand. (Most HP handgun rounds never fully expand in actual human tissue, despite what gel tests might lead you to believe.) In almost all cases handgun round result in surprisingly little blood loss. The internal damage is limited to only whatever the projectile actually touched. There is insufficient energy to create cavitation or shock wave effects. Again, these are FACTS, as can be verified by talking to any medical examiner or ER doctor.

Rifle rounds - like .223/5.56mm are a different story altogether. The point of entry is no bigger than the size of the round, but the internal damage is quite severe. Unless the bullet tracks cleanly through very soft tissue, you'll see a massive shockwave/cavitation cavity starting at about 10cm in, generally creating a pulpy mass of utterly liquefied tissue. This generally doesn't get any bigger than a baseball, and the projectile then looses velocity quickly as it expends energy. The fact that it looses energy causes a drop in speed and a resulting return to non-cavitating track as it exits the body. the exit wound can be quite small or very large depending upon where the cavitation effect begins/ends. Blood loss and internal damage is significantly greater than with handgun rounds. ER doctors and paramedics can almost always immediately recognize handgun vs. rifle wounds, as the differences are really that obvious.

I can go on if you like, but I have no intention of doing so if you are fundamentally unteachable.
ok thanks I GET IT, .223 is better then 9mm, I also understood this a while back after doin some research. either way 9mm is a very close runner up on the damage scale. and I still perfer it.

bohoki
07-12-2010, 4:48 PM
well that got the pos right

jdberger
07-12-2010, 4:53 PM
ok thanks I GET IT, .223 is better then 9mm, I also understood this a while back after doin some research. either way 9mm is a very close runner up on the damage scale. and I still perfer it.

9mm is a close runner up to what on the "damage scale"?

Not 223. Not even .357 magnum. Not .45 ACP or .40 S&W...

If you prefer 9mm - so be it (to be fair, I sometimes carry a P7), but don't blow smoke trying to convince us that it has anything equal to the damaging power of a bottlenecked rifle round.

1911Operator
07-12-2010, 5:20 PM
9mm is a close runner up to what on the "damage scale"?

Not 223. Not even .357 magnum. Not .45 ACP or .40 S&W...

If you prefer 9mm - so be it (to be fair, I sometimes carry a P7), but don't blow smoke trying to convince us that it has anything equal to the damaging power of a bottlenecked rifle round.
I would of thought 357 mag would do more damage, guess not. either way , if you get shot in the face it wont matter what its with, you gonna go down. 9mm is cheaper, consealable, can be shot out of a actual pistol, very easy to get a hold of. so thats why im goin with 9mm.

C.W.M.V.
07-12-2010, 5:21 PM
So that KPOS system sure looks sweet doesn't it? What all is involved in attaching a pistol to it? Snap on or more involved? I mean we are still talking about that, right?

1911Operator
07-12-2010, 5:38 PM
So that KPOS system sure looks sweet doesn't it? What all is involved in attaching a pistol to it? Snap on or more involved? I mean we are still talking about that, right?

lol yeah, I saw a vid on youtube and you just slide it in, theres a "quick detach" looking lever that pins the Glock into the KPOS system. very simple and quick to do. but, you need to install a glock charging lever on you glock. think it comes with the kit but im not sure. they make these for sigs and 1911's too.

znode
07-12-2010, 6:01 PM
I would of thought 357 mag would do more damage, guess not. either way , if you get shot in the face it wont matter what its with, you gonna go down. 9mm is cheaper, consealable, can be shot out of a actual pistol, very easy to get a hold of. so thats why im goin with 9mm.

Now you finally get it. You like pistols. Good. You prefer a pistol round to rifle rounds, good. That's your preference and opinion, and you have all the right to have them.

Just don't confuse your opinion with facts, like "close runner up on the damage scale", or "seen plenty of balistic(sic) tests done" (clearly you haven't, or didn't understand them, otherwise you wouldn't be making these claims), or "223 will go right threw(sic) a person", or ".223 is just a peircing(sic) round", or claiming that .223 is ANYWHERE close to .22WMR.

Instead of taking criticism gracefully and admitting your wrong in obvious facts that's accessible to anyone and 5 minutes of google, you instead decide to call anyone criticizing you trolls. What class.

A .223 at its hypervelocity range (<125yd out of a rifle barrel, <75yd out of a carbine) is designed to cavitate and shred by fragmentation or even complete disintegration, INSIDE thin-skinned, CXP2-class tissue. This applies even to non-HP, military FMJ, along the cannelure. When used on thin-skinned, human-sized animal (pretty much just human, most CXP2 has thicker skin) it has has absolutely no equal in any pistol*, whatsoever. This is not a matter of personal preference, it's a matter of research and facts by countless people in years of terminal ballistics.

*Yes, .223 will work better than .44Mag, .500, or even .460, on humans, especially considering ability for follow-up shots. We are thin-skinned, 200lb bags of water, which makes the fragmentation-based terminal ballistics of .223 especially powerful. On the other hand the magnum pistol calibers work much better than .223 in large game, or even medium game like deer, because .223 will waste too much energy outside of the skin and not achieve the same results. Same applies if said human is hiding behind cover. Terminal ballistics depends on momentum, energy, AND the type of target you are shooting at. Ignore any of them and you run the risk of being ineffective.

patriot_man
07-12-2010, 6:05 PM
Looks a lot like an MP9..

Table Rock Arms
07-12-2010, 6:17 PM
Scrolled down and watched the videos, and one of them said that it will work with any Glock but the G18. As far as I can see the only reason to get one would be if it worked with the G18.

Masterdebater
07-12-2010, 7:31 PM
wow... these kinds of threads where its supposed to be a discussion and then turns into a damn class ruin this site. no where did the op try to "convince" u 9mm was better than the 223 for everybody except for before u guys gave him solid facts the 9 doesnt have more knocking power as he put it, then like 3 of u bandwagon him to make him look like an idiot? u proved the fact that he was wrong about 9mm having more knocking down power than the 223, after that he proceeded to just tell u reasons HE preferred the 9 over the 223, yet u STILL persist to "ream" him with facts of this and that making this thread no completely useless besides pictures. thats redamndiculous. once u posted the proof, there wasnt any ****ed up info and was the end of it. i tried to read through this bullying **** thinking it would have an actual discussion about the topic but no. get over yourselves and go talk about ur shottys and deagles to ur xbox live buddys. i want the last 10 minutes of my life back.

Masterdebater
07-12-2010, 7:32 PM
oh and btw i think it looks like a cool kit id love to have one for my 9mm. dont see how to in cali tho knowing how it is and all

Notblake
07-12-2010, 8:11 PM
I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

I think id like the harder hitting 9mm over the .223

....

1911Operator
07-12-2010, 9:03 PM
wow... these kinds of threads where its supposed to be a discussion and then turns into a damn class ruin this site. no where did the op try to "convince" u 9mm was better than the 223 for everybody except for before u guys gave him solid facts the 9 doesnt have more knocking power as he put it, then like 3 of u bandwagon him to make him look like an idiot? u proved the fact that he was wrong about 9mm having more knocking down power than the 223, after that he proceeded to just tell u reasons HE preferred the 9 over the 223, yet u STILL persist to "ream" him with facts of this and that making this thread no completely useless besides pictures. thats redamndiculous. once u posted the proof, there wasnt any ****ed up info and was the end of it. i tried to read through this bullying **** thinking it would have an actual discussion about the topic but no. get over yourselves and go talk about ur shottys and deagles to ur xbox live buddys. i want the last 10 minutes of my life back.
THANK YOU!!!! i was proven wrong! and IMO I still perfer the 9mm! ppl cant accept that or something, I think some of these guys have never been wrong or something lol, but most had good points to prove it. anyways, thanks for the support.:D

1911Operator
07-12-2010, 9:08 PM
....

wow really? we have been over that and no need to be immature about it. you must be one of those guys thats never wrong....:rofl2:

C.W.M.V.
07-12-2010, 9:16 PM
...but ya Im with most of you guys here the KPOS looks really neat, too bad we wont get it here in this lifetime!

1911Operator
07-12-2010, 9:42 PM
...but ya Im with most of you guys here the KPOS looks really neat, too bad we wont get it here in this lifetime!

yeah I really want one. you could get it but just have to take the stock off , or start paper work for it.:rolleyes:

Masterdebater
07-12-2010, 9:44 PM
it definately looks badass is it expensive

ZombieTactics
07-12-2010, 9:50 PM
THANK YOU!!!! i was proven wrong! and IMO I still perfer the 9mm! ppl cant accept that or something ... I don't have a problem with it - or you - at all. I like 9mm a lot myself. :cool:

I also think the KPOS and similar PDW type stock kits are fun and cool. I can even see cases where they could be quite practical. Add an after market 6-inch barrel and it starts to get interesting.