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View Full Version : so how many times has "GLOCK LEG" actually happend


Shady
07-11-2010, 5:32 PM
there is tons of info on the net saying it is VERY COMMON but I assume that is probably FUD

97F1504RAD
07-11-2010, 5:37 PM
I would not say it's common just seems to happen to those that get careless.

gorenut
07-11-2010, 5:40 PM
I think most the cases of it are due to people messing with the trigger to get a lighter pull. Not that there's anything wrong with doing that, but I can imagine the risks of ad/nd being much greater

joefreas
07-11-2010, 5:42 PM
I saw the pics on here and a video of a cop at a school giving a talk shoot himself in the leg. He kept giving the speech even after he was shot. Heres the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-Qdx6vky0

JTROKS
07-11-2010, 6:15 PM
Finger off the trigger when holstering any handguns.

l8apex
07-11-2010, 6:21 PM
It happens as much as any other pistol w/ a wing nut behind the trigger. Glocks get more press than most since there are more out there than other brands. Finger on the trigger during reholstering or getting part of the holster caught in the trigger guard = ND.

SixtyDashOne
07-11-2010, 6:24 PM
Plexico Burress and that ATF "I'm the only one professional enough to carry a Glock fotay" guy are the only two confirmed cases I know of. Not to say that there's not more but these are the only two I've seen.

DaveT319
07-11-2010, 6:25 PM
The only way it happens is if you are dumb enough to have your finger on the trigger when drawing/holstering. Use common sense and good fundamentals and it will never happen.

Dave

Noah3683
07-11-2010, 6:27 PM
Plexico Burress and that ATF "I'm the only one professional enough to carry a Glock fotay" guy are the only two confirmed cases I know of. Not to say that there's not more but these are the only two I've seen.

He was DEA. Maybe he had been undercover too long and was still on drugs himself.

winnre
07-11-2010, 6:40 PM
So there is a TERM for it and it affects GLOCK owners? One brand to avoid, thank you!

faterikcartman
07-11-2010, 6:43 PM
A campus cop did it with his Beretta when I was at university.

UserM4
07-11-2010, 6:48 PM
I'm sure it can happen with any gun. Thumb safety all but eliminates holstering discharges but it may hamper self defense during a stress induced situation although I've never heard of a reported case and people with 1911's haven't had a problem with them for almost 100 years. :p A decocker in a traditional DA/SA gun would probably be the happy medium (although that ^^campus cop probably decocked his Beretta before holstering, however unlikely that sounds). Also one that doesn't require pulling the trigger to field strip might reduce some of the incidents of negligent discharges.

Fot
07-11-2010, 6:49 PM
One time too many.. ban all Glocks!!!!!

oddjob
07-11-2010, 6:51 PM
Both of my former agencies switched to Glocks. The percentage of AD's have risen quite a bit. One leg, two hands and numerous cars and such. The gun is safe, but the brain short circuts at times. In MY OPINION only its the nature of the design of the weapon and training. Remember that LEO trains to the lowest common denominator. Most are not "gun folks" like people on this forum.

For years we taught LEO to keep their finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target. Now with a Glock (or XD) its "unless your field stripping." Now the brain knows "finger on the trigger" is OK for other than shooting. Don't picture yourself or members here, but think of that idiot cousin/family member of yours (we all have at least one) with a Glock and the safety rules. We had an academy recruit who heard the command to administratively download his Glock. He emptied his Glock by firing into the berm!! Remember "lowest common denominator". Nothing happened to him by the way.

Now picture that family member saying "finger off the trigger till the sights are on the target???" Then how can I clean the Glock?? You know what I mean.

Shady
07-11-2010, 6:58 PM
so is it more safe to have a 5 lb trigger

ZombieTactics
07-11-2010, 6:59 PM
I think the nature of the design lends itself to a greater possibility of an AD, and perhaps a greater number of actual incidents per guns sold. Specifically, I think it's more prone to ADs when worn IWB or in belly band holsters, especially those which do not cover the trigger guard completely.

The Glock is (IMHO) a near-perfect design for a duty weapon worn OWB, unconcealed. Other use cases seem potentially problematic.

UserM4
07-11-2010, 7:09 PM
I think the nature of the design lends itself to a greater possibility of an AD, and perhaps a greater number of actual incidents per guns sold. Specifically, I think it's more prone to ADs when worn IWB or in belly band holsters, especially those which do not cover the trigger guard completely.

The is (IMHO) a near-perfect design for a duty weapon worn OWB, unconcealed. Other use cases seem potentially problematic.

They need to flare the trigger guard out sideways at the point directly under the trigger like the USP. Working in conjunction with the Glock's trigger in a trigger safety, this would help quite a bit imo.
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/6682/usptriggerguardsmall.jpg

DannyZRC
07-11-2010, 7:15 PM
discomfort with glock leg led me to an HK pistol with an LEM trigger, thumb on hammer while holstering = no AD, and like a glock there are no conditionals to the operation of the gun, no multistep procedures.

the XD was my runner up, but I sure do love my P2000.

I don't believe glock leg to be common, but I plan to own my pistol for the next 60-70 years, so that sure is a lot of time to roll those dice over and over.

oddjob
07-11-2010, 7:18 PM
One of the AD's I was thinking of was when one of our guys sat in a car. The chain around his neck (the long kind that holds key cards) looped into the trigger guard area and around it. The chain pulled and bang. Off to the hospital.

cpt_majestic
07-11-2010, 7:28 PM
I saw the pics on here and a video of a cop at a school giving a talk shoot himself in the leg. He kept giving the speech even after he was shot. Heres the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-Qdx6vky0

Sad thing is he was talking about gun safety, it makes you scratch your head for sure. :eek:

DREADNOUGHT78
07-11-2010, 7:32 PM
In that video of the Glock guy shooting himself he just screwed up. He pulls his mag shows clear to the man next to him slaps the mag back in then sends the slide home......Well what happened next speaks volumes for an obviously over confident shooter and his lack of trigger discipline. I shoot the Glock 22 and use it for IDPA and although it is not combat or any other life threatening situation it does create some adrenaline. But no matter how much adrenaline I have or how winded I may be I always am 100% concentrated when holstering my weapon. I have seen first hand what a bullet can do to a femur and it is serious.So to say that this weapon is any more dangerous than the next is dependent on how much discipline the shooter has and how serious he is when he is shooting it.

xxINKxx
07-11-2010, 7:38 PM
so is it more safe to have a 5 lb trigger

No, its safer to keep your finger off the trigger til your ready to shoot.

l8apex
07-11-2010, 7:48 PM
This is not a hardware problem, [B]it is a software problem [training, training, training.] If we start blaming the platform rather than the operator, we're not different than those that want to ban guns. Think about it for a second. A ND is a ND, it's the operators fault -period.

UserM4
07-11-2010, 7:59 PM
This is not a hardware problem, [B]it is a software problem [training, training, training.] If we start blaming the platform rather than the operator, we're not different than those that want to ban guns. Think about it for a second. A ND is a ND, it's the operators fault -period.

You've never made a mistake in your life? Not agreeing with the anti's here, has nothing to do with that. People make mistakes. End of story. BTW, did you read Oddjob's post about the lowest common denominator?

Gryff
07-11-2010, 8:24 PM
The issue I see is with any short-trigger-pull handgun without an external safety is during the holstering process. Especially with IWB holsters, there is the potential for an AD not because of poor finger discipline, but because of the potential of a foreign object (like part of your shirt) getting in the trigger guard and putting pressure on the trigger.

This isn't FUD because I had it happen to me when I was trying some holsters with a Glock 23. While re-holstering using an IWB holster, I heard the gun go "click." I nearly jumped out of my skin thinking "WTF?!!!"

I realized my shirt had gotten caught in the trigger guard and the trigger was pulled when I seated then gun fully in the holster. I thank god that it only happened when the gun was unloaded.

This isn't saying that Glocks suck. Just that the design's limitation is such that you have to re-holster the gun with care.

Rule .308
07-11-2010, 8:24 PM
You've never made a mistake in your life? Not agreeing with the anti's here, has nothing to do with that. People make mistakes. End of story. BTW, did you read Oddjob's post about the lowest common denominator?

Whether we have made a mistake or not is not the guy's point, his point is that the pistol is not a fault here. A very simple case of "it's the monkey, not the machine".

First 2 ND's I heard of, and these were from people I knew: 1) guy was playing quick draw with a single action revolver, bullet entered in the top outside of his calf and exited by his heel, blowing the crap out of it too. 2) Numb skull was actually scratching the side of his head with the muzzle end of a 22 semi auto when it discharged, he was scratching at about the 4:00 position and the bullet buzzed around the outside of his skull, under the skin, and the doctor removed it from under the skin above his right brow!!

I knew both of these idiots personally and it went on long before the advent of either the internet or the Glock. Idiots are where you find them regardless of their hardware.

winnre
07-11-2010, 8:42 PM
so is it more safe to have a 5 lb trigger

Never have a trigger lighter than your brain.

nitrofc
07-11-2010, 8:49 PM
Whether we have made a mistake or not is not the guy's point, his point is that the pistol is not a fault here. A very simple case of "it's the monkey, not the machine".

First 2 ND's I heard of, and these were from people I knew: 1) guy was playing quick draw with a single action revolver, bullet entered in the top outside of his calf and exited by his heel, blowing the crap out of it too. 2) Numb skull was actually scratching the side of his head with the muzzle end of a 22 semi auto when it discharged, he was scratching at about the 4:00 position and the bullet buzzed around the outside of his skull, under the skin, and the doctor removed it from under the skin above his right brow!!

I knew both of these idiots personally and it went on long before the advent of either the internet or the Glock. Idiots are where you find them regardless of their hardware.

And how silly we all thought it was that it was mandatory to pass the California H.S.C. exam to purchase a handgun.

What was it?
"THE SIX BASIC GUN SAFETY RULES"?
"3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot."

The dude with the .22 was lucky......must of freaked him out badly.

missiondude
07-11-2010, 8:53 PM
Always reholster any gun slowly and carefully. I have seen some competitive shooters that are faster on the reholster than their draw. No match or gunfight was ever lost due to a slow carefull reholster. I have actually seen reholstering that would fire a TDA such as a S&W 3rd gen if anything was caught in the trigger...

UserM4
07-11-2010, 8:53 PM
Whether we have made a mistake or not is not the guy's point, his point is that the pistol is not a fault here. A very simple case of "it's the monkey, not the machine".


Ofcourse, guns don't kill people. People kill people. I get it. Just trying to say that over the past 100 years, you don't really see this with 1911's. Hence Glock Leg and not 1911 Leg. :p

$P-Ritch$
07-11-2010, 8:55 PM
This is not a hardware problem, [B]it is a software problem [training, training, training.] If we start blaming the platform rather than the operator, we're not different than those that want to ban guns. Think about it for a second. A ND is a ND, it's the operators fault -period.

+1, I can't believe how much people buy into that "it's less safe without a decocker or manual safety" nonsense. If you shoot yourself while holstering your weapon the only type of malfunction you encountered was a cerebral one.

Two things to remember while holstering:
-No one ever won a gunfight due to quickest return to the holster, take your time.
-While you ease it in, if something doesn't feel right STOP. If circumstances permit, looking at your holster as you are putting the gun into it.

I've drawn and reholstered my glock probably in 1,000's and not once have I come close to an ND. No complacency, no problem.

UserM4
07-11-2010, 9:04 PM
+1, I can't believe how much people buy into that "it's less safe without a decocker or manual safety" nonsense.


Someone in logistics of DHS thinks so. Just sayin.

nitrofc
07-11-2010, 9:15 PM
Well look at it this way....
"As of 1992, Glock has sold approximately 350,000 pistols in over 45 countries."

Someone like the "Fotay" dude on youtube first comes to mind....but where are the other "many times"?

Would really like to know.

$P-Ritch$
07-11-2010, 9:16 PM
Someone in logistics of DHS thinks so. Just sayin.

I am not familiar with DHS, I just looked at their website. Are they some sort of equipment consultants for the military or something? I was a logistics NCO in the army and I'm not familiar with them.

I'm not knocking on some military guys not knowing their stuff, but they are out there. Just because someone is/was very highspeed does not make their opinons gospel. I would always listen to what they had to say, think it through for myself, and reach my own conclusion. That is the same way that I made up my mind on whether the glock is a less safe design or not.

jdg30
07-11-2010, 9:19 PM
Common sense would dictate that you can shoot yourself in the leg with any gun that you holster or unholster and have your finger on the trigger. Glocks aren't any more dangerous than other guns. It's not going to go off by itself and as long as you pay attention to what you are doing you will not have any problems. It's not a problem with Glocks, it's the person handling the gun, and with basic gun handling skills the problem will be avoided.

DannyZRC
07-11-2010, 9:20 PM
This is not a hardware problem, [B]it is a software problem [training, training, training.] If we start blaming the platform rather than the operator, we're not different than those that want to ban guns. Think about it for a second. A ND is a ND, it's the operators fault -period.

so a motorcycle with a suicide clutch & jockey shifter is just as safe as one with a hand clutch and foot shifter?

is it just training, training, training?

the human is part of the equation, those designs that better account for the human factor are _better_

UserM4
07-11-2010, 9:32 PM
Well look at it this way....
"As of 1992, Glock has sold approximately 350,000 pistols in over 45 countries."

Someone like the "Fotay" dude on youtube first comes to mind....but where are the other "many times"?

Would really like to know.

More than you'd think. Here's a handful from just one news article from 2002.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/729088/posts

Another old article. Long read but interesting.
"...In the 10 years since D.C. police adopted the Glock 9mm to combat the growing firepower of drug dealers, there have been more than 120 accidental discharges of the handgun. Police officers have killed at least one citizen they didn't intend to kill and have wounded at least nine citizens they didn't intend to wound. Nineteen officers have shot themselves or other officers accidentally. At least eight victims or surviving relatives have sued the District alleging injuries from accidental discharges..."

"...D.C. police officials repeatedly studied the phenomenon of accidental discharges, invariably concluding that there was no fundamental problem with the Glock itself – as long as users were properly trained. Officials chose not to modify the Glock trigger, as New York City police did in 1990, to require a more forceful tug to fire the gun. In 1994, D.C. police recorded more accidental discharges than the Chicago or Los Angeles forces, two far bigger departments, according to discharge records from the departments. Last year, the accident rate for D.C. police was 50 percent greater than that of New York police..."
With training, accidents are reduced as this article states but it's still there. And a lot of it. And we're talking about cops, not some red neck that thinks target practice is shooting the beer bottle that he just chugged. :p
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/dcpolice/deadlyforce/police4page1.htm

Glock may have never lost a lawsuit but they've settled plenty out of court. Which again proves that there's a lot of ND's with Glocks.
http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/entry/4512.jsp

igorts
07-11-2010, 9:36 PM
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Shoppers+recall+scary,+quiet+scene%3B+Man+shot+him self+in+testicles%3B+He...-a0228149433



I bet he doesn't have the balls to try that again...
and yes, it was a glock

Josh3239
07-11-2010, 9:37 PM
The only "human factor" is whether they are being safe and responsible or not. And that is training. Guns are meant to fire when the trigger is pulled, the Glock will fire when you pull the trigger. If you don't want your Glock to fire, don't pull the trigger. The Glock has several safeties and if someone manages to shoot themselves with a Glock or any handgun for that matter, they are being unsafe, not the handgun. If the safeties aren't enough for you you can buy after market safetys such as the Siderlock, Safe-T-Bloks, Comminoli (external safety mod), or the Vanguard Trigger Guard Holster.

so a motorcycle with a suicide clutch & jockey shifter is just as safe as one with a hand clutch and foot shifter?

is it just training, training, training?

the human is part of the equation, those designs that better account for the human factor are _better_

Günter
07-11-2010, 9:38 PM
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igorts
07-11-2010, 9:40 PM
LOL

UserM4
07-11-2010, 9:44 PM
I laughed.

Corbin Dallas
07-11-2010, 9:44 PM
Both of my former agencies switched to Glocks. The percentage of AD's have risen quite a bit. One leg, two hands and numerous cars and such. The gun is safe, but the brain short circuts at times. In MY OPINION only its the nature of the design of the weapon and training. Remember that LEO trains to the lowest common denominator. Most are not "gun folks" like people on this forum.

For years we taught LEO to keep their finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target. Now with a Glock (or XD) its "unless your field stripping." Now the brain knows "finger on the trigger" is OK for other than shooting. Don't picture yourself or members here, but think of that idiot cousin/family member of yours (we all have at least one) with a Glock and the safety rules. We had an academy recruit who heard the command to administratively download his Glock. He emptied his Glock by firing into the berm!! Remember "lowest common denominator". Nothing happened to him by the way.

Now picture that family member saying "finger off the trigger till the sights are on the target???" Then how can I clean the Glock?? You know what I mean.


Spot on.

LCD = Dumbest person in the room.


To be honest, it doesn't matter what sidearm you have. Finger off trigger at ALL times unless you are ready to shoot.

nitrofc
07-11-2010, 9:45 PM
"the District's Metropolitan Police Department placed one of the most advanced pistols in the world into the hands of hundreds of ill-prepared, undertrained police recruits."

Bummer!




More than you'd think. Here's a handful from just one news article from 2002.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/729088/posts

Another old article. Long read but interesting.
"...In the 10 years since D.C. police adopted the Glock 9mm to combat the growing firepower of drug dealers, there have been more than 120 accidental discharges of the handgun. Police officers have killed at least one citizen they didn't intend to kill and have wounded at least nine citizens they didn't intend to wound. Nineteen officers have shot themselves or other officers accidentally. At least eight victims or surviving relatives have sued the District alleging injuries from accidental discharges..."

"...D.C. police officials repeatedly studied the phenomenon of accidental discharges, invariably concluding that there was no fundamental problem with the Glock itself – as long as users were properly trained. Officials chose not to modify the Glock trigger, as New York City police did in 1990, to require a more forceful tug to fire the gun. In 1994, D.C. police recorded more accidental discharges than the Chicago or Los Angeles forces, two far bigger departments, according to discharge records from the departments. Last year, the accident rate for D.C. police was 50 percent greater than that of New York police..."
With training, accidents are reduced as this article states but it's still there. And a lot of it. And we're talking about cops, not some red neck that thinks target practice is shooting the beer bottle that he just chugged. :p
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/dcpolice/deadlyforce/police4page1.htm

Glock may have never lost a lawsuit but they've settled plenty out of court. Which again proves that there's a lot of ND's with Glocks.
http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/entry/4512.jsp

UserM4
07-11-2010, 9:48 PM
"the District's Metropolitan Police Department placed one of the most advanced pistols in the world into the hands of hundreds of ill-prepared, undertrained police recruits."

Bummer!

Exactly! How many professional operators do you see walking into the gun store and buying a Glock? Last I checked, all you needed to do was answer 30 questions, fill out a form, pay the man, wait your 10 days, and you've become an official bad *** mofo with your Glock Fotay!

nitrofc
07-11-2010, 9:52 PM
Exactly! How many professional operators do you see walking into the gun store and buying a Glock? Last I checked, all you needed to do was answer 30 questions, fill out a form, pay the man, wait your 10 days, and you've become an official bad *** mofo with your Glock Fotay!

Just witnessed it the other day...4 year S.W.A.T.
Watched him purchase a brand new in the Box G23.

Very professional operator.

UserM4
07-11-2010, 10:00 PM
Just witnessed it the other day...4 year S.W.A.T.
Watched him purchase a brand new in the Box G23.

Very professional operator.

Ok, I was being rhetorical. :/ Anyways, I'm all for training but you can't overlook the fact that the majority of owners don't have the necessary training so Glocks should be for LE only. :p Ok just kidding, but someone, was it you?, asked how many people shoot themselves besides the DEA guy and I cited examples. That's all. I'm all for Glocks, Go G19!! and G17!! and G34, and 30SF too!!

UserM4
07-11-2010, 10:09 PM
So, in order to be an operator you can only use specific brands/models of handguns or else that person is just a wannabe?

How do all those handgun training course quotes go?
-Any gun will do if you will do.
-Amateurs debate hardware while professionals talk software.

No, but he quoted the article stating that Glocks required extraordinary training because there were A LOT of ND's after switching to Glocks from revolvers.

nitrofc
07-11-2010, 10:11 PM
Ok, I was being rhetorical. :/ Anyways, I'm all for training but you can't overlook the fact that the majority of owners don't have the necessary training so Glocks should be for LE only. :p Ok just kidding, but someone, was it you?, asked how many people shoot themselves besides the DEA guy and I cited examples. That's all. I'm all for Glocks, Go G19!! and G17!! and G34, and 30SF too!!

I hear ya!

Guess I still don't understand what's so hard about the "Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot" part with some people.

Accidents do happen....but, IMO no excuse for not having your head into what your doing at all times when it comes down to holding onto any handgun.

Good night!

DannyZRC
07-11-2010, 10:15 PM
The only "human factor" is whether they are being safe and responsible or not. And that is training. Guns are meant to fire when the trigger is pulled, the Glock will fire when you pull the trigger. If you don't want your Glock to fire, don't pull the trigger. The Glock has several safeties and if someone manages to shoot themselves with a Glock or any handgun for that matter, they are being unsafe, not the handgun. If the safeties aren't enough for you you can buy after market safetys such as the Siderlock, Safe-T-Bloks, Comminoli (external safety mod), or the Vanguard Trigger Guard Holster.

so a firearm with a 2lb trigger is just as safe as one with a 12lb trigger?

and the only thing that ever pulls triggers is an intentioned finger motion, right? nobody ever caught a gun in a strap or shirt?

if the glock is safe, do the mods you mentioned make it safer? can something be safer? is safety binary, or continual?

I reiterate my belief that a design which better understands the human factor is a better design. If design A tolerates mistakes better than design B, then design A is superior.

saying that a design tolerates a lack of mistakes just as well as another is silliness, all designs tolerate a lack of mistakes completely.

UserM4
07-11-2010, 10:16 PM
I hear ya!

Guess I still don't understand what's so hard about the "Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot" part with some people.

Accidents do happen....but, IMO no excuse for not having your head into what your doing at all times when it comes down to holding onto any handgun.

Good night!

What boggles my mind, after teaching what I know and am passionate about to several new friends is that even when I'm firm with the safety rules and keep an eye out and point it out each and every time with authority, they still hook their finger on the trigger when handling a firearm! That is what drove me to believe that you can't teach some people without slowing everyone else down ergo, you have to send them to special education. :p Software is definitely a problem with a select few and Glocks will definitely be not for them. Shoot, maybe I'm looking at it all wrong. Maybe firearms are not for them.

thayne
07-11-2010, 10:16 PM
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OMG LMAO!

rrr70
07-11-2010, 10:16 PM
The issue I see is with any short-trigger-pull handgun without an external safety is during the holstering process. Especially with IWB holsters, there is the potential for an AD not because of poor finger discipline, but because of the potential of a foreign object (like part of your shirt) getting in the trigger guard and putting pressure on the trigger.

This isn't FUD because I had it happen to me when I was trying some holsters with a Glock 23. While re-holstering using an IWB holster, I heard the gun go "click." I nearly jumped out of my skin thinking "WTF?!!!"

I realized my shirt had gotten caught in the trigger guard and the trigger was pulled when I seated then gun fully in the holster. I thank god that it only happened when the gun was unloaded.

This isn't saying that Glocks suck. Just that the design's limitation is such that you have to re-holster the gun with care.

I have IWB holsters for both G19 and G30. Never had an issues with either. IWB just require a bit more attention when reholstering.
Nothing wrong with GLOCK or any other gun. It's a user error.

xLusi0n
07-11-2010, 10:28 PM
A 5lb trigger vs. an 8 lb trigger isn't going to make a difference for a ND if you have your finger on the trigger or if it gets caught on something while reholstering.

For 99% of the situation, a fast draw is important, but not a fast reholster. When you reholster, take your time.

On the draw, you hopefully have a holster that wouldn't let you put your finger in the trigger well untill its out anyway. Your movement of the gun up and out should be so smooth (fast) that your finger is barely making its way to the trigger as you start pushing the gun out (if you're drawing to shoot - otherwise your finger shouldn't be in there then).

joefreas
07-11-2010, 11:08 PM
This is why I switched to a HK for my carry gun. I didn't feel comfortable with one in the chamber with the Glock and I didn't want to have to rack the slide after the draw. The HK is double action so I can have one in the chamber and have a long pull on the first shot. The safety can be used and is easily turned off with one hand.

I have had some weird things happen throughout the years. One instance I remember was loading some work stuff into the rear driver side of my car. When I was closing the door the corner of the frame hit directly on my holster where the trigger was. It was things like this that made me stop carrying Glocks.

Notblake
07-11-2010, 11:11 PM
probably as common as beretta leg, 1911 leg, sig leg, hk leg ECT.........

UserM4
07-11-2010, 11:19 PM
This is why I switched to a HK for my carry gun. I didn't feel comfortable with one in the chamber with the Glock and I didn't want to have to rack the slide after the draw. The HK is double action so I can have one in the chamber and have a long pull on the first shot. The safety can be used and is easily turned off with one hand.

I have had some weird things happen throughout the years. One instance I remember was loading some work stuff into the rear driver side of my car. When I was closing the door the corner of the frame hit directly on my holster where the trigger was. It was things like this that made me stop carrying Glocks.

I've had a well trained bud fumble and drop his gun at the range and his instant reaction was to grab it. He knew better but it was just automatic. After that, I read on PoliceOne.com about a female officer that did the same thing at the range but unfortunately she shot herself and died. Another officer had her gun, for unknown reasons wasn't holstered or something, get a clothes hanger caught inside the trigger housing in the back of her patrol car and she shot herself. When you handle firearms, accidents, not negligence, happen.

oddjob
07-11-2010, 11:45 PM
I was a rangemaster for the past 27 years. I'm retired now. Some of the things that I know of that has caused AD's besides the old brain have been; thumb straps, trigger shoes (remember those on revolvers?), chains around the neck, cables, the "hook" in bathroom stalls (brain included on this one!!) and snaps on load bearing vests.

For those that mentioned about "finger off the trigger till the sights are on the target". Thats one of Cooper's rule, but with the Glock style handgun the system violates it (gotta pull the trigger to field strip it). This leads me to the next paragraph.

My son is currently going through a police academy. His class has 56 cadets. He said about half the class has NEVER handled a handgun (the academy uses Glock 17's). About 5 are "into" handguns. The rest are ok with a firearm. Its easy to say "keep you finger off.......", but then we say (me included) except when field stripping. It can be a training problem when the trigger is used for something other than making the gun go bang (remember the lowest common denominator).

Don't get me wrong I think the Glock is a fine, reliable handgun. Even I have one (It does sit on the "time out" shelf of my safe). I just think for general issue for the "average" LEO it may not be the best. I feel the trigger should only make the gun go bang and nothing else. It is a good value for the money from a management perspective. I would opt for the Sig or H&K USP system.

Shady
07-22-2010, 2:01 PM
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hahahhah
didnt that guy shoot himself in the dick

JonM
07-22-2010, 3:41 PM
I recall reading another thread on a forum in which someone was asking questions about Mexican Carry of a Glock (unholstered, in the waistband). Obviously almost everyone urged the OP not to do it, and told him that if he absolutely had to, at least use something with a grip or external safety like a 1911 or XD. There was also a poster who said that he was friends with an emergency room nurse, and that the hospital she worked at had treated enough ND's with Glocks during re-holstering that they coined the term "Glock Stripe". Although this pretty much qualifies as hearsay, if there is a grain of truth to it, one may wonder about being extra cautious when re-holstering a Glock.

JTsanchez
07-22-2010, 3:57 PM
Anyone who is afraid of glock leg please avoid glocks and leave them for me.

stormy_clothing
07-22-2010, 4:02 PM
if theres only been a couple dozen idiots among 12 trillion glock owners I'd call that an anomaly personally.

nn3453
07-22-2010, 4:06 PM
I had placed my Glock on the bench at the range. It shot me in the leg when I was not looking. Don't buy Glocks. Most unsafe design ever.

arc
07-22-2010, 4:10 PM
There was also a poster who said that he was friends with an emergency room nurse, and that the hospital she worked at had treated enough ND's with Glocks during re-holstering that they coined the term "Glock Stripe". Although this pretty much qualifies as hearsay, if there is a grain of truth to it, one may wonder about being extra cautious when re-holstering a Glock.

As you say, it's hearsay. I'm always suspicious of anything that comes from "emergency room" workers. Keep in mind the only people that they come in contact with are the people who need to go to the emergency room for one reason or another.

-James

gorenut
07-22-2010, 4:22 PM
I'm going to have to agree with the points that DannyZRC made. I'm not saying Glocks are horribly unsafe guns for the user (I like them a lot), just that I don't see how anyone can think that a gun modified with a 3lb trigger with no safeties is just as "safe" as alternatives out there. Its not only the human factor, but there are just so many variables out there that can snag on to a trigger in a fast-paced scenario. Good holster discipline does help negate external factors, but a lot can happen in between the time the weapon is holstered to draw/ready position.

Legasat
07-22-2010, 4:40 PM
I saw the pics on here and a video of a cop at a school giving a talk shoot himself in the leg. He kept giving the speech even after he was shot. Heres the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-Qdx6vky0

That video never gets old.

I'm just sayin...

stix213
07-22-2010, 6:13 PM
Glocks are unsafe by design, for your family's safety immediately PPT all your Glocks to me for proper disposal :p


But seriously, its just like any device where some models have safety features that others may lack. Is a car made before airbags inherently an unsafe car? It may be safer to have airbags, but there is more than specific features that go into safety of any device.

A gun with an external safety can keep you from hurting yourself when you make a dumb mistake. If you don't trust yourself not to pull the trigger when you don't mean to, then a Glock is probably not for you. But in that case, should any gun be for you?

(Only handgun I currently own is a Glock 26, with a 3LB trigger - great gun and the trigger doesn't snag since you'd have to fully depress the trigger safety to activate the trigger. I always index the thing until ready to fire and have never ND'd the thing but have put about 2k rounds through it since I picked it up - as always with firearms... careful careful careful)

lehn20
07-22-2010, 10:51 PM
Finger off the trigger and NO NO on Serpa holsters!

BigDogatPlay
07-22-2010, 11:08 PM
Don't get me wrong I think the Glock is a fine, reliable handgun. Even I have one (It does sit on the "time out" shelf of my safe). I just think for general issue for the "average" LEO it may not be the best. I feel the trigger should only make the gun go bang and nothing else. It is a good value for the money from a management perspective. I would opt for the Sig or H&K USP system.

I concur 100% with each and every word of the above. I have long believed that the Glock is a superb military firearm, but that it severely lacks as a choice for law enforcement use.

Glock leg, butt, locker room bench, floor and even head are all more common in the LEO world than you might think. I'm personally aware of four ND's where there was injury over the years, jut in my general neck of the woods, and that doesn't count the well known, You Tubed ones like the DEA doofus.

When Glock first came on the LEO market, it was billed as being able to be deployed with absolutely no conversion training. And the NDs came on like crazy. I recall at least one documented incident where a long time revolver using officer busted a cap in the back of a teenagers head while trying to search him, killing the kid, after converting to Glock.

It comes down to training, training, training... whether LEO, soldier or citizen exercising their God given rights.

rrr70
07-22-2010, 11:11 PM
Finger off the trigger and NO NO on Serpa holsters!

What's wrong with Serpas?

Mute
07-22-2010, 11:13 PM
Given how many striker fired guns of very similar design are out there nowadays, I'm going to guess the number is fairly small otherwise we'd be hearing a great deal more about this particular issue.

Grumpyoldretiredcop
07-22-2010, 11:15 PM
My former agency switched to Glocks nearly a decade ago. Up to the time I retired, a couple of years ago, we'd had no cases of "Glock leg" or NDs that I was made aware of (and as a Rangemaster, I would have been). We cycled all deputies that were issued Glocks, and all other deputies who opted for other semi-autos, through transition training. That may have been the key to our lack of Glock NDs.

We had, on the other hand, at least a couple of ND's involving 1911s, 2 involving AR rifles (one right in the archway of the Civic Center... I wonder if the hole was ever patched?) and one that did involve injury... a dropped S&W semi-auto that the deputy tried to catch.

I've used Serpa holsters for years. If you don't have recto-cranial inversion, you won't get hurt using them.

'Nuff said.

1911su16b870
07-22-2010, 11:17 PM
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Boy that is one funny video... :rofl:

ZombieTactics
07-23-2010, 6:50 AM
What's wrong with Serpas?
Nothing is really wrong with the Serpa2 design, but it relates to the phenomenon that we are discussing. The Glock trigger is light enough that there is a potential issue with the way the Serpa design operates. Some users have been known to curl their fingers and depress the release paddle with their finger tips while drawing ... and then their finger slips onto the trigger after it clears the holster ... bang!

The recommended technique is to "flat finger" the paddle, which places you in the correct "stupid finger OFF OF the TRIGGER" position when drawing, but some people just can't seem to get that in their heads or get their finger to cooperate.

For some funny reason, this doesn't seem to happen with any other pistol but the Glock. :rolleyes: It's likely the case that other guns with slightly heavier actions are less prone to NDs even when failing to observe proper technique. I just can't imagine this happening with and DA-action revolver, for instance, or even a M&P or Ruger SR9. With an XD the trigger is proabably just as light (or lighter), but there is enough slop in the trigger for a little "whoops room" safety regarding this issue.

As such, some training facilities have banned the Serpa2 holster altogether. It's just easier than saying "you can't use Serpa2 with Glocks here ... there's an issue". If you think about it from a business perspective, it makes more sense to ban a relatively inexpensive accessory than to open up a whole can of worms about the design of the worlds most popular pistol.

It should be noted that many schools also ban "race gun" modifications, more out fear of Glocks than anything else. So, 1911 pistols with very light SA triggers are fine ... but not Glocks with heavier triggers, but modified lighter than factory. It just isn't presented that way ... again why open that can of worms?

I think the Glock design is damned near ideal as a duty weapon. The lack of a secondary safety mechanism of some kind simply presents some training issues, and makes it a less intelligent choice for certain kinds of deployment or carry methods. It's especially stupid as hell to Mexican-carry a Glock when you are going out dancing at a club, for instance.

247Nino
07-23-2010, 8:21 AM
I now use this as a training aid.

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/286/nin3238.jpg

247Nino
07-23-2010, 8:27 AM
to add: IF ANYONE IS HAVING TROUBLE WITH TRIGGER DISCIPLINE, Maybe you need to join my Corps and go to boot camp. They offer free basic weapons safety and handling courses.

1-800-MARINES

Two Shots
07-23-2010, 8:43 AM
+1, I can't believe how much people buy into that "it's less safe without a decocker or manual safety" nonsense. If you shoot yourself while holstering your weapon the only type of malfunction you encountered was a cerebral one.


+1
I know two people who got shot by thier own weapon, one person (MP) shot hisself with a 1911 while reholstering it, the second was a LEO that was "adjusting" his S&W Revolver in his holster.

Munk
07-23-2010, 11:25 AM
+1
I know two people who got shot by thier own weapon, one person (MP) shot hisself with a 1911 while reholstering it, the second was a LEO that was "adjusting" his S&W Revolver in his holster.


.... I can see that with the 1911, since he'd be pressing down (probably with finger on trigger, or trigger snag), but the revolver throws me. Was he keeping the hammer cocked while holstered?


One thing i'd like to hear about is how many times a Beretta G series has been responsible for an ND like this. They have no safety, just a decocker only. The DA trigger pull is fairly strong unless you swap it to the DAO version's spring.

(i still love the video where the instructor shoots himself in the middle of class)

Colt
07-23-2010, 11:57 AM
I thought "Glock leg" is now known as "doing the Plaxico."

Table Rock Arms
07-23-2010, 12:42 PM
so a motorcycle with a suicide clutch & jockey shifter is just as safe as one with a hand clutch and foot shifter?

is it just training, training, training?

the human is part of the equation, those designs that better account for the human factor are _better_

In order to make this analogy work you would have to ask if they are both just as safe to put back in the garage. And I would say that if you were pushing both of them back into the garage then they would be equally safe. If you were riding them into your garage then not so much.

ZombieTactics
07-23-2010, 1:07 PM
I'm not sure how much I want to beat this dead horse, but the issue can be demonstrated without too much trouble.:


Get 2 or more handguns ... one should be an unmodified Glock.
UNLOAD the dang things.
Get a piece of strapping or a shoelace or something about that width.
Loop it through the trigger guard of the first gun (do the Glock last).
Cock the gun, rack the slide ... you know the drill.
Point it in a safe direction and push the GUN (don't pull the strapping) slowly forward or down - while holding the strapping with the other hand - until it goes click.
Do this for the next gun.
Do the Glock last ... you'll have a "day-um, aha!" moment.


The Glock trigger is excellent in the way it breaks. It's also demonstrably more likely to go bang from foreign objects caught inside the guard. I don't for one hot second suggest that this makes the Glock "unsafe" ... only "less safe in certain cases". It's up to the owner to use their head about these kinds of things. Some won't/can't/don't. They sadly may need to learn a little more dramatically.

Thus endeth the lesson.

451040
07-23-2010, 4:09 PM
if theres only been a couple dozen idiots among 12 trillion glock owners I'd call that an anomaly personally.

Yup.

Finger off the trigger and NO NO on Serpa holsters!

What's wrong with Serpas?

Nothing in regards to drawing from one.

Josh3239
07-23-2010, 4:39 PM
Tactical Response is one of the schools that has banned the Blackhawk SERPA. I have a SERPA and do understand.


Why no Serpa holsters?

An answer from our friend Paul Gomez: Begin Quote “Over the last year, I have developed some serious concerns with the Blackhawk Serpa Active Retention holster design. Various persons have brought these concerns to the attention of Blackhawk on several occasions and Blackhawk has chosen to ignore these very real issues.

The ‘Serpa Active Retention’ design consists of a plastic L-shaped component which functions as the release button [from the outside of the holster] and as the lock [which engages inside the trigger guard]. The short leg of the L-shaped lever pivots inward [toward the pistol], while the locking tab pivots outward to release the pistol from the holster.

According to the Blackhawk website, ”The release is made using your normal drawing motion, with the trigger finger beside the holster body. … As your trigger finger naturally comes to rest on the SERPA lock’s release mechanism, simply push the mechanism as you draw the weapon and it releases the gun for a smooth, fast draw.”

While Blackhawk may intend for the end-user to apply inboard pressure with the flat of the index finger, under stress, shooters tend to push the button with the tip of their index finger. After all, this is the manner in which most people have the most repetitions pushing buttons such as keys on a keypad or phone or ringing doorbells. When the finger pushes in on the release button and the user initiates the upward motion of the draw stroke, the finger tends to stay in motion and as the trigger guard clears the holster, the finger enters the trigger guard and contacts the trigger, with possibly tragic results.

I am aware of two instances where trained personnel have shot themselves using this holster in conjunction with Glock pistols. In August of 2004, a situation occurred with a live weapon that resulted in the shooter losing a 10cm piece of her femur. The other occurred with nonlethal training ammunitions in a force-on-force event in April of 2005. The impact of the NLTA was in the same area as the actual gunshot wound previously mentioned.

Following each of these events, Blackhawk was contacted and advised of the problems observed and concerns raised. In the first instance, they claimed that they were unaware of any previous issues with the design and insisted that the design had been ‘thoroughly tested by law enforcement and military personnel’.

After the second event, they were contacted by at least two people. Again, they stated that they were unaware of any concerns and had heard nothing similar from any sources.” End Quote

RobG
07-23-2010, 4:49 PM
How many times has it happened? No one probably knows for sure. But, every stereotype starts out with a grain of truth...

turbogg
07-23-2010, 4:53 PM
I saw the pics on here and a video of a cop at a school giving a talk shoot himself in the leg. Heres the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-Qdx6vky0

Great handgun safety expert! At least he didn't kill anyone!

7x57
07-23-2010, 5:41 PM
The problem here is a false dichotomy: either Glocks are less safe, or they're just like any other gun.

Phooey. Some guns have specific training requirements. Traditional single-actions must not be carried with one under the hammer. They are not less safe (contra the lawyers): they are safe when carried according to standard practice. But plenty of otherwise properly trained people, especially nowadays, don't know that. We just don't care because nobody carries a single-action pistol except the diehards, and they already know. At least in my opinion, you also should not cover someone with the pistol cocked and the finger anywhere near the trigger, because the single-action trigger pull is just too light and short for most people under stress.

Some guns are also less forgiving if you break the rules, and this I think is the "problem" with Glocks. What are we told a mechanical safety is? An extra margin *if the rules are broken*. That's the "problem" with Glocks--they don't have that extra margin. They are designed to work just like a double-action revolver--but the trigger pull is better. Better for shooting, anyway. Unsafe? Nope--if you follow the rules, no problem.

But what if you don't? There is very little to save you. No external safety, no revolver trigger pull, no grip safety. I don't think that makes them less safe--I think it makes them less forgiving of errors.

So, assuming there is a ND problem with Glocks, I'd say it is simply revealing training issues. The question then is: are we going to live with those training issues? Of course, I want to say *NO*! But it appears we are already doing that. If we *must*, then, perhaps, it makes sense to try to get an extra margin of safety. But I do not want to pretend that this is anything other than trying to paper over people carrying guns that aren't properly trained.

And that's my point, I guess--if we really are going to have poorly trained cops on the street, do we bow to that reality? I don't want to, but....

7x57