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View Full Version : this is how you do it (AG/DOJ doesn't understand regulatory law)


bwiese
04-13-2006, 12:54 PM
While I don't condone the outcome of the battle, the techniques of the fight are laudable. Sec 11340 et al of Administrative Code is quite useful. No submarine regulations!

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/04/12/BAG2PI7JMF1.DTL&hw=Nathan+Barankin&sn=001&sc=1000

Underline/bolded areas in text are mine...

.................................................. .................................................
MARIN COUNTY
Killer Opens New Front on Execution Methods

Morales' suit says public didn't OK revised procedures

Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer
Wednesday, April 12, 2006


A condemned murderer from Stockton, whose challenge to the state's lethal injection procedures won him a stay of execution in February, has filed a new suit contending the state failed to consult the public before revising its methods of administering lethal drugs.

State officials submitted the new procedures last month to the federal judge who had blocked Michael Morales' execution. The changes include the continuous infusion of a sedative to keep the prisoner unconscious as he is put to death.

But in a suit filed April 4 in Marin County Superior Court, lawyers for Morales argue that execution procedures are state regulations that, under California law, require public notice, public comment and an opportunity for members of the public to request a hearing.

"We think it's of substantial interest to the public how people are executed,'' Brad Phillips, a lawyer for Morales, said Tuesday. Before putting any regulations into effect, he said, state officials "have to solicit comments, and they have to respond in writing.''

Phillips said he believes the former lethal injection procedures, in effect since 1996, were also adopted without public notice or comment. The suit seeks a court order nullifying the revisions and barring any executions until the state goes through the regulatory process.

Nathan Barankin, spokesman for Attorney General Bill Lockyer, said that when the issue has arisen in the past, prison officials have maintained that a method of execution is not subject to regulations requiring public input. Instead, he said, it is classified as an "institutional procedure'' that is drafted and revised by the San Quentin State Prison warden, with approval from the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation.

Morales, 46, was convicted of raping and murdering 17-year-old Terri Winchell in a vineyard near Lodi (San Joaquin County) in 1981. His appeals of his convictions and death sentence have been turned down, but U.S. District Judge Jeremy Fogel postponed his scheduled Feb. 21 execution because of concerns about California's lethal injection methods.

Fogel said San Quentin records raised the possibility that an inmate might be conscious and in severe pain during the final stages of an execution. He told prison officials they could proceed with Morales' execution only if they took certain precautions, such as having a doctor monitor the process and make sure the inmate was unconscious.

Two anesthesiologists initially agreed to oversee the execution but withdrew at the last minute, saying they were being asked to take actions that violated a physician's ethical duty not to participate in executions. Fogel issued a stay and has scheduled a hearing for May 2 to 3 in San Jose to determine whether California's procedures pose a significant risk of inflicting unnecessary pain, in violation of the constitutional ban on cruel and unusual punishment.

The state announced its new procedures in a filing with Fogel last month. The revised system would alter the doses of the three execution chemicals and provide for a continual flow of the sedative sodium pentothal from the initial dose until death is pronounced. State officials have not publicly explained all the details but say executions will not require a doctor's presence.

With Morales' execution still on hold, Phillips, his lawyer in the Marin County suit, said he would await the outcome of the federal court hearing before proceeding with his case.

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glen avon
04-13-2006, 1:16 PM
You believe everything a petitioner says? I have a bridge to sell you.

bwiese
04-13-2006, 1:24 PM
You believe everything a petitioner says? I have a bridge to sell you.

Oh no, I don't. It just seems to be - from the information related in article - a good, or at least interesting, method of attack.

glen avon
04-13-2006, 1:26 PM
great. bridge still for sale....

grammaton76
04-13-2006, 1:50 PM
Geez. If they want to ensure it's quick and painless, how about just putting their heads under a 10-ton metal block and letting it crush their skulls would go about as fast as possible - even less sensation than poking at him with a needle. And NO brain activity would be going on when everything above the shoulder is a very thin layer of jam...

mow
04-13-2006, 2:43 PM
State sponsored murder is still murder :p

blacklisted
04-13-2006, 3:00 PM
State sponsored murder is still murder :p

My response would be that we should privatize the death penalty. Let the citizens push the plunger on the syringe, but have like 10 syringes with 9 filled with saline.

:eek:

socalguns
04-13-2006, 3:51 PM
Too bad grammaton76, glen avon, and mow
like to miss the point.
They have public comment periods for all kinds benign law, but not something this life-altering :)

vrylak
04-13-2006, 4:24 PM
Bring back the guillotine.

xenophobe
04-13-2006, 4:42 PM
They should be fully concious, and they should feel every moment of pain, and they should also have to look into the eyes of the families that he took from.

Personally, they should let the family privately have at him with guns, bats, knives, or whatever implements they wanted, with a physician to keep the murderer alive as long as possible.

Murderers who rape and molest their victims should be tortured, Spanish Inquisition style.

mow
04-13-2006, 6:12 PM
Too bad grammaton76, glen avon, and mow
like to miss the point.
They have public comment periods for all kinds benign law, but not something this life-altering :)

huh?:confused:

Snuffalofogus
04-13-2006, 6:41 PM
great. bridge still for sale....


pm sent, is the bridge still for sale??

socalguns
04-13-2006, 11:40 PM
mow ;) mow :D

glen avon
04-14-2006, 9:13 AM
huh?:confused:

me too. :shocked:

artherd
04-14-2006, 11:25 AM
I'm interested in bridge. All cash, 5 day escrow.

-hanko
04-14-2006, 11:59 AM
State sponsored murder is still murder :p
Ever have a friend or a family member murdered??:mad: I do realize that it's always the victim that drove the killer to do his deed.:p

-hanko

donger
04-14-2006, 12:30 PM
State sponsored murder is still murder :p

So how do you feel about wars? It's federally sponsored.

I think it's a shame that the state spends millions of dollars and thousands of man hours housing, feeding, sheltering, and (hopefully) executing heinous murderers.

Mow, me thinks you've been living in the Bay Area for too long.:rolleyes:

Bacon
04-14-2006, 6:36 PM
Rope!
It's recycleable.

bbq_ribs
04-14-2006, 10:54 PM
Guillotines? Rope? bats?

WTF?!

We have a GREEN SOLUTION to this. It's totally NATURAL, and no nasty lab chemicals are involved at all!

It's called MOLTEN LAVA and Hawaii has plenty of it. :-D

An excellent and environmentally friendly way to dispose of meth heads and murderers. The Prius driving SF types should be all for it. ;)

rodgster
04-14-2006, 11:38 PM
Anyone who is against the death penalty has never had something bad happen to someone close to them.

That said, I'd personally be very very careful applying the ultimate punishment. I wouldn't want the blood of an innocent victim on my hands.

The Death penalty should be reserved for instances where there is NO DOUBT as to the defendant's guilt.

xenophobe
04-14-2006, 11:57 PM
The Death penalty should be reserved for instances where there is NO DOUBT as to the defendant's guilt.

And it should be handed out by the victims (if possible) and their families... medieval torture devices and cruel and unusual punishment notwithstanding...

adamsreeftank
04-15-2006, 12:00 AM
My response would be that we should privatize the death penalty. Let the citizens push the plunger on the syringe, but have like 10 syringes with 9 filled with saline.

:eek:

Are the extra 9 so you could sell more tickets?

Maybe they could make it a lottery. The winner gets to push the button. The runners up could put to sleep some un-adopted dogs or cats or something.

trinity9
04-15-2006, 8:09 AM
The Death penalty should be reserved for instances where there is NO DOUBT as to the defendant's guilt.

What if you're just kind of sure, but not really, but you really want someone to pay?

Then would it be okay?

Trinity

glen avon
04-15-2006, 11:36 AM
What if you're just kind of sure, but not really, but you really want someone to pay?

Then would it be okay?

Trinity

don't be a bleeding heart, I'm sure they were guilty of *something*. ;)

Boomer1961
04-15-2006, 12:28 PM
Why the death penalty?

It costs more to execute someone than it does to keep them in prison for life. Especially since it takes like an average of 14 years because we want to be certain to be right.

It also makes the state cold blooded executioners. This has an affect on all of the government and how they deal with the sheople. They are no longer treated as special and unique with a right to life and liberty and happiness. What is most quickest and expedient is what drives the government bureaucrats.

And then there is the greater punishment of being imprisoned for life. A quick execution is not as painful as trying to survive in prison for 60 years.

It does though help with some of those affected by the crime in allowing them to have closure to this loss, but some of these folks also have misgivings (right punishment, right guy, asked in court to personally condemn this person during death penalty phase).

It seems we as a nation are back wards on this one. Almost all of the wealthy industrialized nations have revoked this most ultimate penalty as they have the wealth/luxury to have alternatives.

We are in the club that includes Russia, China, Cuba, Iran, North Korea, etc when it comes to this matter. Not Britain, Spain, France, Italy, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Germany, Netherlands, . Even in the two developed democracies that still execute (Japan, South Korea) it is practiced on such a small scale, and seems to be there for those special occasions where killing a certain individual actually saves lives and South Korea is on the verge of joining the other 120 countries that have abolished it.

In very poor states without a good prison system and in great turmoil (IRAQ, Sudan, Somalia) it is completely understandable the value that the death penalty adds but I do not classify the US as being in this position. I do understand that not having a death penalty is a luxury of the more well to do countries like the US.

I have to say that at least on this issue I do not find myself agreeing with members at this forum though on most matters I do agree, like why does a $2 piece of plastic or a "SAFETY DEVICE" like a flash hider are forbidden fruit.

blacklisted
04-15-2006, 12:32 PM
Are the extra 9 so you could sell more tickets?

Maybe they could make it a lottery. The winner gets to push the button. The runners up could put to sleep some un-adopted dogs or cats or something.

It's so nobody knows who the one that actually kills the guy is. They do something similar with firing squads (some guns are loaded with blanks).

1911_sfca
04-15-2006, 10:14 PM
Why the death penalty?

The justice system is responsible for enforcing laws. And executing things like search warrants, arrest warrants, death warrants...

Our laws say that some crimes should be punished by death. That is the literal answer. Are you asking a philosophical question like why can't we all just get along?


It costs more to execute someone than it does to keep them in prison for life.

Source?

mow
04-16-2006, 9:48 AM
Ever have a friend or a family member murdered??:mad: I do realize that it's always the victim that drove the killer to do his deed.:p

-hanko

No I have not, but if the wrong person is executed that is murder. How would you feel if you were a family member of the victim and then found out that the wrong person was executed? I never said the victim did anything wrong! I said state sponsored murder is still murder. Speaking of the victim, do executions bring them back?

Do any of you know how many times the wrong person has been executed?

IMO the moment that happens once, the state has murdered, executions are flawed and they must stop...

So how do you feel about wars? It's federally sponsored.

I think it's a shame that the state spends millions of dollars and thousands of man hours housing, feeding, sheltering, and (hopefully) executing heinous murderers.

Mow, me thinks you've been living in the Bay Area for too long.:rolleyes:

Me thinks you rolling your eyes about where I live is pretty silly. I believe what I believe regardless of where I live.

Moe believes wars are innevitible and are used as a tool to spur our economy.

Do any of you have any idea what the average income of the people that actually get executed are? How many of them do you think are affluent?

I did a study on executions in college and let me tell you I was startled once I began investgating it, and after I finished the report I was no longer pro death penalty.

Our justice sytem is flawed period, can we all agree on that?