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Mark in Eureka
04-07-2006, 12:19 AM
Just a thought, could we get around the entire assault weapon concept by just have a smooth bore barrel on the upper receiver. PC 12276 a refers to "All of the following specified rifles" in its listings of proscribes weapons. If they were not rifles, but smooth bores would that make a difference? Would it make it harder to stop the importation of both named and/or off list receivers since they could now be used for a non rifled weapon? Maybe called a small bore single pellet shotgun. Or maybe resurrect the term musket for a smooth bored long gun that is not a shotgun or a rifle?

NeoWeird
04-07-2006, 12:28 AM
Could be.

As you pointed out shotguns are defined by both the DOJ and ATF as being smoothbore, so a while ago I asked the question of if a shotgun with a rifled bore was a rifle or shotgun, since it was a shotgun by name but a rifle by defnintion (I was asking to see the legality of making a magazine fed semi-auto shotgun). The return response was that if it had a rifled bore it was a rifle, even if it fired shotgun shells. I don't see why it wouldn't work the other way around.

Just keep in mind that Shotgun laws are generally a bit more restrictive than rifle laws. For example, having an M4 style rifle with a fixed mag would be fine, but make it with a smoothbore and it's a semi-auto shotgun with a pistol grip and collapsable stock and is an assault weapon.

It's good thinking, but you got it backwards. It would HURT a rifle to make it fit the defintion of a shotgun, but it HELPS a shotgun to be defined as a rifle.

adamsreeftank
04-07-2006, 1:43 AM
Also a shotgun has a longer minimum barrel length. Around 18 as opposed to around 16 for a rifle.

Mark in Eureka
04-07-2006, 1:39 PM
Yes, but over 250 years ago there only Shotguns and Muskets and Shotgunsas long arms . Later when the process of rifling was developed, the end product was named a Rifle, and Muskets died out.

rkt88edmo
04-07-2006, 1:42 PM
Smooth bore black powder ARs? :confused:

Just a thought, could we get around the entire assault weapon concept by just have a smooth bore barrel on the upper receiver. PC 12276 a refers to "All of the following specified rifles" in its listings of proscribes weapons. If they were not rifles, but smooth bores would that make a difference? Would it make it harder to stop the importation of both named and/or off list receivers since they could now be used for a non rifled weapon? Maybe called a small bore single pellet shotgun. Or maybe resurrect the term musket for a smooth bored long gun that is not a shotgun or a rifle?

CALI-gula
04-07-2006, 1:46 PM
That is a good idea, but in reality, I would rather keep a fixed mag desgination than to move to a smooth-bore gun (unless shotgun). High speed bullet on a smooth bore would be anyone's guess as to where it would go down range; no spin at high speed; and with such high pressures, copper or lead build up in a smooth bore might be devistating, even if for pistol rounds. "Kabooms" would become a common event.

Probably not a good idea, but I like the ambition to deconstruct Roberti-Roos/SB23 in any way possible.

grammaton76
04-07-2006, 1:51 PM
(I was asking to see the legality of making a magazine fed semi-auto shotgun). The return response was that if it had a rifled bore it was a rifle, even if it fired shotgun shells. I don't see why it wouldn't work the other way around.

So, a Saiga-12-oid with a rifled barrel would be perfectly ok firing 12ga shells, as long as it had no pistol grip or collapsible stock?

Hmm... the possibilities for Evil abound... I wonder what'd happen if a gun store were to purchase said beast, swap over to a rifled barrel, and then sell it in CA...

Note I'm saying Saiga-12-oid, not Saiga-12. The S12 is on 'the list', however I imagine there are some comparably nifty designs out there off of the list...

tenpercentfirearms
04-09-2006, 8:13 AM
So rifled shotgun barrels can be between 16" and 18"? Who wants to be the test case on that one? After Ruby Ridge I won't be volunteering.

NeoWeird
04-10-2006, 6:05 AM
So rifled shotgun barrels can be between 16" and 18"? Who wants to be the test case on that one? After Ruby Ridge I won't be volunteering.

What did I miss that happened at Ruby Ridge? I swear I should never go on vacation again. You leave on top of everything (or at least that you know of) and even weeks later you find you missed stuff.

As for the Saiga-ish shotgun, I would assume it would be legit. This was the question I sent in:

In paragraph (21) or subdivision (c) of Section 12020 a shotgun is defined as "a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger."

Under that defintion would a weapon designed to fire either a single projectile, or a number of projectiles, from a fixed shotgun shell out of a rifled bore be classified as rifle under the definition of a rifle as per paragraph (20) or subdivision (c) of Section 12020?

And this was the response:

Mr. ******,

Thank you for your inquiry to the Firearms Division.

Considering the hybrid weapon you described, since the object is fired from a rifled bore, it would be determined a rifle and not a shotgun (pursuant to PC 12020 (c)(20)).

If you have further questions regarding firearms, please visit our website at www.ag.ca.gov/firearms or contact us at (916) 263-4887.

The email itself was from "Jeffery Booth", but I always found it funny he didn't leave his personal contact information like I have seen in other responses from the DOJ. It always made me wonder if it was an unofficial statement and didn't want his name on it.

Anyone balls enough to try it?

tenpercentfirearms
04-10-2006, 7:34 AM
Anyone balls enough to try it?I heard you need a cart to carry around your stones. Go for it! :D

antarius
04-10-2006, 7:53 AM
That is a good idea, but in reality, I would rather keep a fixed mag desgination than to move to a smooth-bore gun (unless shotgun). High speed bullet on a smooth bore would be anyone's guess as to where it would go down range; no spin at high speed; and with such high pressures, copper or lead build up in a smooth bore might be devistating, even if for pistol rounds. "Kabooms" would become a common event.

Probably not a good idea, but I like the ambition to deconstruct Roberti-Roos/SB23 in any way possible.
The Abrams M1A2 tank has a smooth bore barrel. Somehow it works just fine, while moving at 60mph and firing at moving targets down range.

Somehow I think the barrel on the Abrams M1A2 is slightly more expensive than our RRA uppers though. :)

DrjonesUSA
04-10-2006, 10:36 AM
What did I miss that happened at Ruby Ridge? I swear I should never go on vacation again. You leave on top of everything (or at least that you know of) and even weeks later you find you missed stuff.



Federal agents murdered a mother holding her baby, after they shot her son in the back, all over a shotgun that was allegedly 1/4 of an inch too short.

Satex
04-10-2006, 10:48 AM
ummm, smooth bore tank barrels fire GUIDED munitions! Those puppies don't fly a ballistic trajectory to the target, they fly more like a guided missile.
There is a reason rifling was invented, spin stabilization is a powerful feature adding orders of magnitude more accuracy than non rifled barrels.

I do however recall that DARPA put out some research money for guided bullets fired from small arms! I think that would be cool as hell!

The Abrams M1A2 tank has a smooth bore barrel. Somehow it works just fine, while moving at 60mph and firing at moving targets down range.

Somehow I think the barrel on the Abrams M1A2 is slightly more expensive than our RRA uppers though. :)