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View Full Version : Chabot Rangemaster: ammo in your bag means your gun is loaded


GunsRUs
06-27-2010, 4:43 PM
I took a class with the Rangemaster there (Maunder). He told the class very strongly that having ammo in the same locked container as the gun even if the ammo was

1) loose
2) not of the same caliber as the gun

would have you convicted of carry a loaded gun.

Those with more knowledge and clout than me here, please set him straight! My wife took the class with me and is now scared to death of my pistol as she thinks I will go to jail for driving to and from the range with it.

Nessal
06-27-2010, 4:45 PM
......

HowardW56
06-27-2010, 4:46 PM
Read http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Defining_loaded_in_California#People_v._Clark

SJgunguy24
06-27-2010, 4:47 PM
Direct fro the CHP website

I will be traveling to California and want to carry my weapon. I currently have a concealed weapon permit. How can I legally transport my weapon while driving through the state?
California law does not recognize concealed weapon permits from other states; therefore, they would not be held valid. If you wish to transport a handgun during your California visit, it should be carried unloaded in a locked container. In the absence of a suitable container, you may secure the unloaded handgun in the locked trunk of a passenger car. Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well.

If you have additional questions, contact the California Department of Justice at 916-227-3703

CCWFacts
06-27-2010, 4:57 PM
I've heard this same story, at various times, at basically every shooting range I've been to in California. I always leave loaded mags in the same bag or locked container, but not in or attached to the gun. it's legal. If they see it they always tell me I'm going to get busted. Um, for what?

bwiese
06-27-2010, 5:00 PM
Urban legend.

And yes, quite a few cops think the same thing - perhaps they went to the same class and "learned" it there.

hoffmang
06-27-2010, 5:00 PM
Rangemasters are not lawyers and often prove that...

-Gene

Python2
06-27-2010, 5:03 PM
And you say he is a rangemaster? Jeesh......wonder where he is getting all that information, must have been a friend of Iggy.

Fjold
06-27-2010, 5:07 PM
And you say he is a rangemaster? Jeesh......wonder where he is getting all that information, must have been a friend of Iggy.

He was taught by another range master in the same class.

Sometimes you just can't fix "stupid".

bwiese
06-27-2010, 5:09 PM
He was taught by another range master in the same class.

Sometimes you just can't fix "stupid".

John Maunder isn't stupid, and runs a nice range, but this just goes to show about reliance on urban legend or from a cop.

SJgunguy24
06-27-2010, 5:10 PM
He was taught by another range master in the same class.

Sometimes you just can't fix "stupid".

Yes you can, it's often painful and maybe expensive.

CenterX
06-27-2010, 5:11 PM
My wife came back from a local Handgun Safety Class saying the same thing.
She said that one trainer said it was so and the other said it isn't but that many police are told to arrest anyway. A lawyer I used to shoot with (notice past tense) said the same thing a few different times. Ain't changing my behavior based on unwritten rules.

SJgunguy24
06-27-2010, 5:17 PM
My wife came back from a local Handgun Safety Class saying the same thing.
She said that one trainer said it was so and the other said it isn't but that many police are told to arrest anyway. A lawyer I used to shoot with (notice past tense) said the same thing a few different times. Ain't changing my behavior based on unwritten rules.

Arrest a person for breaking a non existant law off of something they "heard"?

With budgets being as tight as they are you would think a little training would pay for itself if that can avoid a couple of false inprisonment lawsuits. Hell maybe kidnapping could be charged because they are basing an arrest off info that is clearly hearsay and 1000% wrong.

HowardW56
06-27-2010, 5:20 PM
Rangemasters are not lawyers and often prove that...

-Gene

I think it's part of their training
If you don't know, make something up.

His brother-in-law's cousins, wife's uncle was a cop in Alabama and told him so...

He thinks he is the ultimate authority of everything relating to firearms.

SJgunguy24
06-27-2010, 5:25 PM
I think it's part of their training
If you don't know, make something up.

His brother-in-law's cousins, wife's uncle was a cop in Alabama and told him so...

He thinks he is the ultimate authority of everything relating to firearms.


Yep, or the "I'm a cop, I know what I'm talking about" mindset.
I've had tons of cops tell me they lock in 30's to BB equipped guns all the time, felony or not. Which sucks the high hard one because they will throw somebody in jail for the very same thing, even though it's no less of a crime when they do it.

CSDGuy
06-27-2010, 5:28 PM
In the Pre-Clark world, I was taught the same thing. The idea back then was that ammo within reach of someone with a firearm, or ammo in the same compartment as a firearm constituted a "loaded firearm." Think along the same lines as the current gang member "loaded firearm" statutes. He either has not actually read People v Clark or it's his understanding that it applies only to shotguns...

gunsmith
06-27-2010, 5:33 PM
what I do is bet them 20 dollars they can't prove it- or maybe bet him a free range day that's he wrong.

Skidmark
06-27-2010, 5:40 PM
John Maunder isn't stupid, and runs a nice range, but this just goes to show about reliance on urban legend or from a cop.

Exactly. Chabot is a very nice place to shoot, and SAFE - thanks in large part to Maunder.

mswanson223
06-27-2010, 5:45 PM
Hey if CHP says its cool then its cool.

GunsRUs
06-27-2010, 6:03 PM
John Maunder isn't stupid, and runs a nice range, but this just goes to show about reliance on urban legend or from a cop.

I think that you have nailed it. He just needs somebody with some more weight than me to set him straight.

He is teaching a class to ~10 or 15 new gun owners each month and installing the fear of God into them on this issue.

dantodd
06-27-2010, 6:05 PM
John Maunder isn't stupid, and runs a nice range, but this just goes to show about reliance on urban legend or from a cop.

Sounds like you know him pretty well. Perhaps a little nudge from a "trusted source on firearms law" is in order to prevent this FUD from being passed any farther.

Fjold
06-27-2010, 6:27 PM
Exactly. Chabot is a very nice place to shoot, and SAFE - thanks in large part to Maunder.

I don't know the man or the range. The sum total of all my knowledge about him is that he "teaches" something wrong in his range master class.





You can fix stupid but it is often terminal.

SJgunguy24
06-27-2010, 6:29 PM
Sounds like you know him pretty well. Perhaps a little nudge from a "trusted source on firearms law" is in order to prevent this FUD from being passed any farther.

Send him this link.http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/answers.html#05

If he won't believe the CHP then he might think the world is flat.

510dat
06-27-2010, 6:33 PM
how about a letter on CGF letterhead pointing out the case law, that CHP note, and a couple of appropriate examples?

It's his shop, and he can run it any way he wants to, but he has an ethical duty to give students accurate information. If he's getting this wrong, what else is he getting wrong?

joelogic
06-27-2010, 6:38 PM
FYI, the last time we aired something out about an employee of Chabot on this site they cancelled two shooting matches for a year.

Cant find the original thread.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=240192&highlight=cancellation

Fjold
06-27-2010, 6:41 PM
how about a letter on CGF letterhead pointing out the case law, that CHP note, and a couple of appropriate examples?

It's his shop, and he can run it any way he wants to, but he has an ethical duty to give students accurate information. If he's getting this wrong, what else is he getting wrong?

Smart, :notworthy: That's the $64,000 question.

Zebra
06-27-2010, 7:11 PM
I know the range, I talked to the man and this just does not sound right.
I'd like to hear the other side!

Frank

I don't know the man or the range. The sum total of all my knowledge about him is that he "teaches" something wrong in his range master class.





You can fix stupid but it is often terminal.

SJgunguy24
06-27-2010, 8:17 PM
When I took my hunters safety course in Norco it was taugh by a off duty police officer. He told me the old myth that ANY gun in your vehicle had to be in a locked container and OUT of arms reach. He said ammo had to be clearly in a seperate area of the vehicle.
Boy was he wrong.

I like to ask if that is their opinion or the law. If that is law to please cite the PC so I may look it up myself. If that is their opinion, please keep that to themselves. I have opinions on many subjects but I will not voice my opinion and say that is the law.

cadurand
06-27-2010, 8:27 PM
I think using the term stupid is uncalled for.

It is sad that he's passing bad info to his "students". Might be worth a return trip to let him know his information is dated.

It's hard to keep up with all the laws no matter who you are. Give the benefit of the doubt and try to solve the problem.

Maybe he's got email and you can send him a friendly message.

Nevermore
06-27-2010, 10:40 PM
FYI, the last time we aired something out about an employee of Chabot on this site they cancelled two shooting matches for a year.

Cant find the original thread.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=240192&highlight=cancellation

So? Then let them. Actions speak louder than words, and if someone pointing out that they're wrong about the law has them react against their own interests and those of their prospective customers, then maybe they aren't such great friends of the Second Amendment. That kind of action clearly tells people, 'My ego is more important than getting the law correct.'

I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader whether or not that's someone they want to patronize with their business.

tiki
06-27-2010, 10:57 PM
Yes you can, it's often painful and maybe expensive.

And as Chicago will find out tomorrow, it sometimes requires the Supreme Court.

otteray
06-27-2010, 11:00 PM
I think using the term stupid is uncalled for.

It is sad that he's passing bad info to his "students". Might be worth a return trip to let him know his information is dated.

It's hard to keep up with all the laws no matter who you are. Give the benefit of the doubt and try to solve the problem.

Maybe he's got email and you can send him a friendly message.

I agree. Dated info.
Somebody , heck, anybody here, that shoots there, please update this good gunny who means well.
Isn't that one of the major things that we're all about at this site? Dispelling urban legends whenever we can, either as a group or individually?

Mstrty
06-27-2010, 11:46 PM
I took a class with the Rangemaster there (Maunder). He told the class very strongly that having ammo in the same locked container as the gun even if the ammo was

1) loose
2) not of the same caliber as the gun

would have you convicted of carry a loaded gun.

Those with more knowledge and clout than me here, please set him straight! My wife took the class with me and is now scared to death of my pistol as she thinks I will go to jail for driving to and from the range with it.

Was the Range master smoking a joint or wearing his pants low with a red or blue bandana. Cause I believe gun laws are a little different for the stoned or gang members. cant even have a holster

exact answer coming soon someone will be along to confirm or correct me.:D

bwiese
06-27-2010, 11:49 PM
Easy boys, down...

Relatively small error. I'll have a chat upcoming holiday.

CG holds its Norcal ShootNQs there and the range is most accomodating.
We have a great time there.

I have to say from a practical standpoint a lotta cops don't know this either so if you're into grief avoidance it still may be useful conduct.

abusalim81
06-28-2010, 12:39 AM
He needs to go back to gun school and get edumecated!

RRichie09
06-28-2010, 2:20 AM
When I called the local Sherrif's office I was told that ammo cannot be kept with the gun twice. I'm new to guns, but whether or not this is correct information, if the officer that pulls you over thinks that ammo can not be kept in the same bag/container as your gun then does it really matter at that point what the law says or does not say?

You might potentially end up in jail and face legal bills.

bwiese
06-28-2010, 2:23 AM
When I called the local Sherrif's office I was told that ammo cannot be kept with the gun twice. I'm new to guns, but whether or not this is correct information, if the officer that pulls you over thinks that ammo can not be kept in the same bag/container as your gun then does it really matter at that point what the law says or does not say?

You might potentially end up in jail and face legal bills.

Hmm - PROBABLY book'n'release O.R. if you're cleancut and nothing else is wrong.

CGF is glad to handle these. Once we solve one or two in an area and the DA/agencies are "on notice", fun begins if they repeat....

Being able to pull up the CHP or DOJ statements above about the legality on your iPhone can be helpful.

Ron-Solo
06-28-2010, 9:03 AM
Many years ago there was case law (I can't recall the case) that said if the ammo and gun were in immediate proximity, the gun was considered loaded. This case law is no longer valid and hasn't been for many years, but unfortunately, the legend lives on.

Things like this die hard, because there is NO LEADERSHIP coming out of the DOJ Bureau of Firearms, which should be educating all of the LE agencies in the state. The DOJ should be putting out training bulletins and updating the information concerning firearms instructors.

The NRA and CRPA should also require remedial training for instructors and rangemasters who carry their credentials. There should be an expiration date on such credentials to insure they instructor/rangemaster receives the current info. What was the law 20 years ago, is not always the law not.

Peace Officers are required to have in-service training approve by the state every two years. Sadly, updates on firearms laws arenot always included because the actual agency selects the course material from that approved by the state. If the agency has an anti-gun Chief/Sheriff there's a good chance you wont see any firearms law updates unless required by the state.

With budget issues, along with the other training that is mandated by the state (first aid/CPR/Correctional-custody/pursuits/DV/etc) most agencies struggle to keep up with those issues and don't get to expand on others. They choose the training based on what they feel exposes the department to the most liability.

Many of us spend our own time and money to keep current on issues that our departments do see as that same priority as you and I might. I've been at it 32 years, and remember very clearly when the proximity ruling was valid. I've survived 32 years by knowing what I'm doing in all aspects, which required that I keep up on case law, as well as codified law.

It is not that rangemasters, LE, instructors are intentionally spreading bad info, they just haven't kept current on the law. It is constantly changing, like today's ruling on McDonald :) will have an impact, but we will have to be patient to see what changes are made.

D-Man
06-28-2010, 9:11 AM
People v Walker from 1996 was the primary case where this was decided. Ammo in the bag is not a loaded weapon!

BigDogatPlay
06-28-2010, 9:53 AM
When I called the local Sherrif's office I was told that ammo cannot be kept with the gun twice. I'm new to guns, but whether or not this is correct information, if the officer that pulls you over thinks that ammo can not be kept in the same bag/container as your gun then does it really matter at that point what the law says or does not say?

You might potentially end up in jail and face legal bills.

What county, if you don't mind my asking? And did you speak with deputies or with a non-sworn person in the business office?

As a concerned citizen and a gun owner who does not want to get in trouble inadvertently you might want to print the CHP and DoJ statements, as well as a link to People v. Clark and prepare a nice letter to the big sheriff and follow that up with a courtesy phone call.

Ron-Solo is right about legends living on.... and about a distinct lack of leadership from CADoJ as regards training. For too many years the BoF (former Division) has spent far too much effort trying to go after AWs that aren't while not spending enough time percolating the straight scoop down to the 58 DAs and local LEA.

Seesm
06-28-2010, 12:37 PM
Bill as we all KNOW John Maunder is wrong why not call him and explain the LAWS to HIM...?

motorhead
06-28-2010, 1:03 PM
a guy told me he was taught this at his ccw course. ex leo instructor, of course. they also told him he could get a ccw in l.a..

biofire
06-28-2010, 1:27 PM
Could everyone please treat John with civility? I've taken John's class and had private instruction with him. He is an outstanding teacher and a helluva nice guy, and runs a great range. Maybe he should know this law, but he might also be trying to teach newbies good habits that will keep them from shooting themselves when they case and uncase their guns. Of course, we could just call and ask him.

Skidmark
06-28-2010, 1:54 PM
Could everyone please treat John with civility? I've taken John's class and had private instruction with him. He is an outstanding teacher and a helluva nice guy, and runs a great range. Maybe he should know this law, but he might also be trying to teach newbies good habits that will keep them from shooting themselves when they case and uncase their guns. Of course, we could just call and ask him.

I've also taken courses from Maunder. But I do so to learn better techniques, not to educate myself on gunlaw. I bit my tongue several times when he's gone off on tangents not related to firearms safety and technique, since the quality of the instruction was quite good, and far outweighed any need to get into an argument with him on unrelated points. That being said, I haven't heard him mention the misinformation about ammoe in a bag being equivalent of a loaded firearm.

RRichie09
06-28-2010, 4:02 PM
What county, if you don't mind my asking? And did you speak with deputies or with a non-sworn person in the business office?

As a concerned citizen and a gun owner who does not want to get in trouble inadvertently you might want to print the CHP and DoJ statements, as well as a link to People v. Clark and prepare a nice letter to the big sheriff and follow that up with a courtesy phone call.




I live in Los Angeles county and I spoke with a deputy both times. The receptionist transfered my call to a deputy as soon as she heard my question. Interestingly, the second deputy told me that if I rode my motorcycle with an AR disassembled into a lower and upper in my backpack I would be carrying a concealed weapon. I thought only pistols could not be concealed.

I have started printing out important information to keep in a binder that I will keep in my range bag just in case I get pulled over.

Thank you for the additional information, I will certainly follow your advice.

dantodd
06-28-2010, 4:06 PM
Could everyone please treat John with civility? I've taken John's class and had private instruction with him. He is an outstanding teacher and a helluva nice guy, and runs a great range. Maybe he should know this law, but he might also be trying to teach newbies good habits that will keep them from shooting themselves when they case and uncase their guns. Of course, we could just call and ask him.

I agree that it is important to treat everyone with civility until and unless they demonstrate that they don't deserve such treatment.

However; there is no "maybe" about it, he SHOULD know the law if he runs a range. He should DEFINITELY know the law if he is teaching gun courses and includes legal information in those classes.

510dat
06-28-2010, 4:06 PM
I thought only pistols could not be concealed.


True; you cannot be convicted of concealing a rifle. It's quite possible that you could be arrested for transporting a loaded fire arm by an ignorant cop, but you wouldn't be convicted (assuming there are no loaded mags in the rifle). Disassembling the AR only helps your case.

biofire
06-28-2010, 5:31 PM
I agree that it is important to treat everyone with civility until and unless they demonstrate that they don't deserve such treatment.

However; there is no "maybe" about it, he SHOULD know the law if he runs a range. He should DEFINITELY know the law if he is teaching gun courses and includes legal information in those classes.

Point taken.

AAShooter
06-28-2010, 5:48 PM
You have to be careful when talking about long guns. If they fall in to the "assault weapon" category, further restrictions apply.

I suggest the book at: http://www.gunlawpress.com/ to understand the laws more fully.

LazyBoy
06-28-2010, 5:57 PM
I took a class with the Rangemaster there (Maunder). He told the class very strongly that having ammo in the same locked container as the gun even if the ammo was

1) loose
2) not of the same caliber as the gun

would have you convicted of carry a loaded gun.

Those with more knowledge and clout than me here, please set him straight! My wife took the class with me and is now scared to death of my pistol as she thinks I will go to jail for driving to and from the range with it.

I think most Leo are taught this when they go to the academy. I was taking a patrol procedures class and we got to the discussion on firearms they told the whole class the same thing. I knew he was wrong but I didn't want to disrupt the class.

AAShooter
06-28-2010, 6:33 PM
I think the bottom line in this discussion is that the law is often misunderstood by firearms owners and law enforcement officers alike. Personally, when transporting firearms (excluding CCW tools) I like to secure my firearms such they are locked and the ammunition is separate from the firearms. Many will lock their ammo up in a separate container.

This may be far from what is required; however, almost all firearms owner and law enforcement officers quickly realize it complies with the law and is likely to avoid hassles.

Even if I am in the right, I don't want to have to answer the questions have you ever been arrested even if the charge is dropped because an error was made.

MrEd
06-28-2010, 9:50 PM
We all have been wrong at some time in our lives , I have been to Chabot many times and can confirm what Bill says , he is a great guy . Calling him stupid is really uncalled for . Sure it would be nice if someone told him what the law is . But shouldn't we treat our fellow gunnies with a little kindness ? He might be wrong on the law but that does not make him a bad guy . Those who know him can attest to the contrary .

joedogboy
06-28-2010, 11:16 PM
I agree. Dated info.
Somebody , heck, anybody here, that shoots there, please update this good gunny who means well.
Isn't that one of the major things that we're all about at this site? Dispelling urban legends whenever we can, either as a group or individually?

This came up in one of the Administration of Justice classes I took back in 1991. At that point in time, we found three different definitions in CA state law for what constituted a loaded firearm, and one included "within reach" - while a careful reading implied that the broader definitions only applied in certain situations, it was up to individual interpretation - which meant that you could be safe, or potentially be very sorry.
Our instructor used this as an example of how the law can be vague and how easy it is for someone to unintentionally violate the law.


I'm glad that there is some case law that cleared that up since then.

Ron-Solo
06-28-2010, 11:23 PM
People v Walker from 1996 was the primary case where this was decided. Ammo in the bag is not a loaded weapon!

Sounds about right.

PsychGuy274
06-28-2010, 11:32 PM
I had this same thing happen to me at a range in SoCal. I had my shotgun in a scabbard slung across my back. The action was visibly open and it had a cable lock through it. However, I have a shell holder on the buttstock that had some shells in it. I was told by the guy at the counter that I was in possession of a loaded firearm. I proceeded to explain how I wasn't as per PC 12031 (g) and People v. Clark. I told him that if their business had a POLICY against carrying ammunition in the buttstock then I would happily and willingly comply, but I was not doing anything illegal.

That night I sent the owner an email describing my problem with how one of his staff members handled the situation. I explained how it is dangerous to spread myths about the legality of certain things concerning firearms because it just adds to the pool of FUD and misinformation already in circulation in our society. I received an email of apology from him the next day. He was very polite and helpful and said he was going to talk to his employees about what loaded actually means.

johnny_22
06-29-2010, 10:30 AM
My California Police Officers Legal Sourcebook has the right answer. I haven't updated it since September 2006!