PDA

View Full Version : Carrying Loaded Magazines?


ElkHunterSL
06-27-2010, 12:01 PM
I had a strange experience yesterday. I went to LAX Firing Line. I transported my XD in it's case with an empty magazine in it.

In the cutout part of the case where my magazines go I had my 2nd magazine with 8 rounds in it.

At LAX Firing Line they take your bag from you and inspect everything. The gentleman had me open my gun case and asked me if I was LEO. I said No, and he then informed me it's illegal to carry my magazines loaded.

I didn't argue with him, I just apologized and went about my day.

Was I wrong to carry my magazine loaded in the same locked container as my gun, which had an empty magazine in it.

Rivers
06-27-2010, 12:16 PM
No. You were legal unless you otherwise are a "prohibited" person like a known gang member which I assume you are not.

Shotgun Man
06-27-2010, 12:19 PM
I don't think I would have apologized. Maybe a sarcastic thanks.

sevensix2x51
06-27-2010, 12:32 PM
i never transport my magazines empty. what if i need to shoot my firearm in a hurry? legal, unless the mag is latched into the firearm. then its considered "loaded." :)

ElkHunterSL
06-27-2010, 12:40 PM
Thanks. I didn't think what I was doing was wrong. My case was locked. The empty magazine was in my XD.

I didn't feel like arguing with the guy and I was there with a group so didn't want to cause problems with the group, plus I was there qualifying for my CCW so figured if I started something they may ask me to leave and then I'd be SOL on my CCW.

AndrewMendez
06-27-2010, 12:42 PM
I don't know what is worse, him asking if you where a cop, indicating that only LEO's are entitled to CCW's or the fact that he does not have any idea the difference between a loaded gun and a loaded magazine next to a gun. This is like helping out at the gun shows and someone waking up to me and telling me "Hey, I want to buy this gun, but "**** ***** gun store said it was illegal in that configuration" when referring to a bullet button.

littlejake
06-27-2010, 12:49 PM
The range is spreading FUD. If they wish to make it a range rule that you enter without loaded mags, it's their property; and they can make that rule.

The FUD goes back to when a codified definition of loaded had words such as -- "in or attached to the firearm in anyway." That definition of loaded has been restricted by case law... Thanks to Hoffmang for the cite: People v. Clark (1996) 45 Cal.App.4th 1147 , 53 Cal.Rptr.2d 99.

Clark was a bad guy; but they tried to pin a loaded weapon rap on him for being in a place where there was a shotgun with shells in the buttstock storage. People v Clark said, not loaded... ammo had to be in a position where it could be moved into firing position by operating the gun, such as a loaded mag in the mag well.

Legally you were OK. BTW -- I'm not a lawyer.. so don't take what I say as the Gospel... but you have the case law to inquire of our legal minds on these boards.

ElkHunterSL
06-27-2010, 1:27 PM
The range is spreading FUD. If they wish to make it a range rule that you enter without loaded mags, it's their property; and they can make that rule.

When I left I read the range rules and they actually do have a range rule regarding no loaded mags unless on the firing line.

Which I would have understood if he had said, "FYI your not allowed to bring loaded mags into our lobby". But he clearly said I wasn't allowed to transport (in general).

Glad to know I was not in the wrong.

winnre
06-27-2010, 1:50 PM
I went in with three mags loaded, they did not care about that but they asked how many rounds they held. I said ten, they were fine.

Turbinator
06-27-2010, 2:27 PM
You did the right thing. You knew he was wrong, but you didn't argue. The only thing you might be able to do next time is bring in the legal citation and help educate the shop - although some shops don't take kindly to being educated.

Turby

manuelcardenas77
06-27-2010, 7:01 PM
You did the right thing. You knew he was wrong, but you didn't argue. The only thing you might be able to do next time is bring in the legal citation and help educate the shop - although some shops don't take kindly to being educated.

Turby That would be funny maybe someone should them a Email??

3B830
06-27-2010, 10:47 PM
Read this ElkHunter...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=4526489#post4526489

Bill Carson
06-27-2010, 11:08 PM
FUD

Bill O'Rites
07-09-2010, 2:04 AM
They told me the same FUD last week and I politely told him I thought that was FUD but thanks anyway for the point of view. He did add that it came from an LEO owner or co-owner, iirc. My mag was just in the same locked case not even touching the gun.

PsychGuy274
07-09-2010, 2:26 AM
You were 100% legal. There is nothing illegal about carrying loaded magazines in the same case as a firearm; as long as the firearm itself wasn't loaded. I had a similar experience and told the person he was wrong and he ended up apologizing to me :)

fd15k
07-09-2010, 6:00 AM
LAX firing range is a nasty little place. I especially "love" how they got no private parking there (well, they do, for whole 2 cars), so you have to park some place else and walk there with your guns on the public street :rolleyes: They were also on KTLA or similar station after McDonald, giving more FUD.

tenpercentfirearms
07-09-2010, 6:55 AM
That is why I love Kern County. I shoot for free five minutes from my house and there are no inspectors to look at my goodies.

CSACANNONEER
07-09-2010, 6:59 AM
That is why I love Kern County. I shoot for free five minutes from my house and there are no inspectors to look at my goodies.

I'm in LA county and I shoot for free AT my house.:D

21654
07-09-2010, 7:06 AM
LAX firing range is a nasty little place. I especially "love" how they got no private parking there (well, they do, for whole 2 cars), so you have to park some place else and walk there with your guns on the public street :rolleyes: They were also on KTLA or similar station after McDonald, giving more FUD.

Yeah ... and those two cars are almost always employee's vehicles.

SJgunguy24
07-09-2010, 8:13 AM
Print this out and show it to them, it's from the CHP website about out of state CCW's.

I will be traveling to California and want to carry my weapon. I currently have a concealed weapon permit. How can I legally transport my weapon while driving through the state?

California law does not recognize concealed weapon permits from other states; therefore, they would not be held valid. If you wish to transport a handgun during your California visit, it should be carried unloaded in a locked container. In the absence of a suitable container, you may secure the unloaded handgun in the locked trunk of a passenger car. Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well.

neuron
07-09-2010, 11:11 PM
When I left I read the range rules and they actually do have a range rule regarding no loaded mags unless on the firing line...

Yeah, well that is THEIR rule, regarding what they want you to do when you are on their private property. It does not have the force of STATE or FEDERAL
firearms laws...So, if you are in "violation" of their "rules," they have the right to ask you to comply or leave their premises. If you refuse, the most you are guilty of is trespass. I'd comply with their request, tell them to have a nice day, and at the smae time tell them not to count on my patronizing their range in the future and further informing them that I will recommend to all my friends to avoid patronizing them...:) This way they may change their attitude.

norcal.xd
07-10-2010, 8:47 AM
Thanks. I didn't think what I was doing was wrong. My case was locked. The empty magazine was in my XD.

I didn't feel like arguing with the guy and I was there with a group so didn't want to cause problems with the group, plus I was there qualifying for my CCW so figured if I started something they may ask me to leave and then I'd be SOL on my CCW.

you can have loaded mags in the case. thats how i carry my xd, but do not carry any mags in your gun while transporting it. in ca a empty mag inserted into a gun in concealed. this is how i transport mine. i actually cut alittle so it can hold 3 mags now. http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab45/halfcrunk/gunpicsandconcertpics059.jpg

paul0660
07-10-2010, 9:03 AM
in ca a empty mag inserted into a gun in concealed.

I am not clear on what you mean, and don't recall anything in the PC about empty mags in guns. Are you referring to some case law?

Dr Rockso
07-10-2010, 9:12 AM
in ca a empty mag inserted into a gun in concealed.
Hear that one at a gun shop, too?

bodger
07-10-2010, 9:16 AM
I LUCC a lot and with the mags full. As I have understood from what the law dogs have stated on CG (and the cites they post) this is completely legal.

I do recall something being said about not referring to a magazine that has ammunition in it as "loaded", the term "full" or "containing ammunition" being the preferred descriptions. Don't know why or what difference it makes, if any. It's just speech.

And then there is the problem of concealing a magazine that contains ammunition. If I recall, that isn't legal.

hoffmang
07-10-2010, 9:21 AM
There is no such thing as a loaded magazine. There are magazines with rounds in them. The only thing that can be considered loaded is a firearm... Don't place magazines with rounds in them in the magazine well of a firearm unless you want a loaded firearm. Magazines with rounds in them in the same container with an unloaded firearm are completely legal.

-Gene

AlexDD
07-10-2010, 9:33 AM
And then there is the problem of concealing a magazine that contains ammunition. If I recall, that isn't legal.

Does any one have the court case or code for this?

I remember reading this in a thread way back.

More specifically, say I am going back from the range, my handgun is in a locked container/bag unloaded, but I forget and put a loaded mag in a separate unlocked bag or separate compartment on the bag with no lock.

Librarian
07-10-2010, 10:45 AM
Does any one have the court case or code for this?

I remember reading this in a thread way back.

More specifically, say I am going back from the range, my handgun is in a locked container/bag unloaded, but I forget and put a loaded mag in a separate unlocked bag or separate compartment on the bag with no lock.

The situation you describe is not a problem. Only the gun must be locked for transport, not the ammunition.

See the article (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Defining_loaded_in_California) at the Calguns Foundation Wiki.

The possible issue with concealed magazines with ammunition in them arises principally with UOC, and is based on People v Hale (1974) 43 CalApp.3rd 353, 356.

ElkHunterSL
07-10-2010, 4:21 PM
Thanks Everybody for your input. Greatly Appreciated.

AlexDD
07-10-2010, 4:25 PM
The situation you describe is not a problem. Only the gun must be locked for transport, not the ammunition.

See the article (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Defining_loaded_in_California) at the Calguns Foundation Wiki.

The possible issue with concealed magazines with ammunition in them arises principally with UOC, and is based on People v Hale (1974) 43 CalApp.3rd 353, 356.

Thank you.

WTSGDYBBR
07-10-2010, 4:51 PM
Can you have a firearm locked in a locked case in your locked trunk but have loaded clips in your glove department of your car ?

CSACANNONEER
07-10-2010, 5:21 PM
Can you have a firearm locked in a locked case in your locked trunk but have loaded clips in your glove department of your car ?

Unless you are in a GFSZ, you can have unlocked and unloaded firearms on your front seat with loaded magazines sitting next to them. Now, if you put a handgun in a container, it must be a locked container (a locked trunk is a locked container). But, you can have loaded magazines in the same container if you so desire. As far as loaded "clips" sure, I have a bunch of loaded clips just sitting in my door pockets. Although clips are not magazines (they are used to load magazines), there are no laws about transporting either loaded clips or magazines as long as they are not inserted into a firearm.

Librarian
07-10-2010, 5:22 PM
Can you have a firearm locked in a locked case in your locked trunk but have loaded clips in your glove department of your car ?

If the firearm is unloaded, yes - or anyplace else in the car you find convenient.

Seesm
07-10-2010, 5:49 PM
Sounds like maybe we need a CGN day there were EVERYONE comes with mags full of bullets to show unity.
And then drop off the PC that shows its legal.

And tell them to STOP SPREADING FUD!!!

luckystrike
07-10-2010, 7:27 PM
same thing with the lady at basspro, she was the one that does the demonstration when you pick up the pistol, I dont recal her name but shes 'short and stout' she said "nope if you have loaded magazines even in the same car its loaded and your gonna go to jail" I rolled my eves and said ooooooook.

vta
07-10-2010, 7:49 PM
Gun range operators are not 2nd amendment lawyers and neither are LEOs. They just happen to be in a position of power and some like use it to intimidate and spread FUD which is a very very unfortunate. I would politely disagree with their interpretation of the law and continue on with your business. Whether that means staying and spending your money at that establishment or leaving is up to you.

I would consider printing the following on a piece paper and leaving it in the locked gun case. (Source: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12020.php)

Not that you would ever want to start an argument with anyone at the range but just in case an uninformed LEO decides to make your life miserable, you can refer the the official language in the CA Penal Code.


California Penal Code:

Section 12026.1 (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device.

Section 12031 (g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

Ishooter
07-10-2010, 9:29 PM
If LAX Firing Line is a private shooting range, then they may have their own policy and they expect anyone using their range to follow their policy. As for any private property, the property owner can ask you to leave and that's legal and common sense. You can contact the range owner or manager to find out about their policy for your specific case. Then you can decide you can can just hang up the phone, or make a big deal out of it. :D

paul0660
07-10-2010, 9:56 PM
Please continue this discussion over here:



http://www.calccw.com/Forums/general-ccw-discussion/15765-does-ammo-magazine-loaded-gun.html

But set aside some time beforehand.

Librarian
07-10-2010, 10:16 PM
I would consider printing the following on a piece paper and leaving it in the locked gun case. (Source: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12020.php)

Not that you would ever want to start an argument with anyone at the range but just in case an uninformed LEO decides to make your life miserable, you can refer the the official language in the CA Penal Code.

In this case, the letter of the law is the problem, because it has been re-interpreted by case law - People v Clark (1996). See the Wiki article (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Defining_loaded_in_California). Keep instead some of the law enforcement training materials linked there.

hoffmang
07-10-2010, 11:55 PM
Please continue this discussion over here:



http://www.calccw.com/Forums/general-ccw-discussion/15765-does-ammo-magazine-loaded-gun.html

But set aside some time beforehand.

CGF is 4-0 on the interpretation of People v. Clark.

Those who remain afraid will be sheep. If everything else you're up to is legal, then you can actually follow the law as written and not the fear-mongering of "gun owners" who don't understand that the state works for you...

-Gene

manuelcardenas77
07-11-2010, 12:58 AM
Good stuff!

loather
07-11-2010, 10:22 AM
Those who remain afraid will be sheep. If everything else you're up to is legal, then you can actually follow the law as written and not the fear-mongering of "gun owners" who don't understand that the state works for you...


Except when it comes to legislation in regards to our firearms rights. Then they're working against us. :\

diginit
07-11-2010, 11:14 AM
Unless you are in a GFSZ, you can have unlocked and unloaded LONG GUNS on your front seat with loaded magazines sitting next to them. Now, ANY FIREARM CAPABLE OF BEING CONCIELED, must be a locked container (a locked trunk is a locked container).PROVIDING THERE IN NO ACCESS OR PASSTHROUGH TO THE INTERIOR OF THE VEHICLE. But, you can have loaded magazines in the same container if you so desire. As far as loaded "clips" sure, I have a bunch of loaded clips just sitting in my door pockets. Although clips are not magazines (they are used to load magazines), there are no laws about transporting either loaded clips or magazines as long as they are not inserted into a firearm.

Sorry CSA, Had to Fix it for ya....
We don't want our newbies in jail, Do we?

hoffmang
07-11-2010, 3:43 PM
Except when it comes to legislation in regards to our firearms rights. Then they're working against us. :\

Nah, they're just in need of some time with their bosses and co-equal government branches. Government will serve gun owners again soon enough.

-Gene

Liberty1
07-11-2010, 4:05 PM
Now, ANY FIREARM CAPABLE OF BEING CONCEALED, must be a locked container (a locked trunk is a locked container).PROVIDING THERE IN NO ACCESS OR PASS THROUGH TO THE INTERIOR OF THE VEHICLE.

Sorry CSA, Had to Fix it for ya....
We don't want our newbies in jail, Do we?

Out side of GFSZs only concealed handguns* must be transported/carried pursuant to a 12025 exemption in 12027 (capability of concealment is not the determinant).

*RAWs not discussed

SigAlert
07-11-2010, 6:47 PM
I don't understand why my bag has to be inspected before I'm allowed to enter LAX. If they're that worried about their clientele, it might be in my best interest to find a safer range to shoot at.

On the plus side, they do have a wide variety of ammo.

pMcW
07-11-2010, 9:30 PM
I was at a local range the other day, shooting trap. One of the shooters took a look at my buddy's Shotgun with shells in a stock pouch, and asked: "Is that black shotgun yours?"

"No, it's his..." said I, indicating my friend.

"Did you bring it in the car that way?" said he, with a wide-eyed knowing look.

"Yes," my friend responded, "in a locked case..." (the barrel was also removed from the receiver, but we never mentioned that to him.)

"Don't you know that is a felony??" said the guy, with conviction. "That's considered loaded; the ammo is connected to the gun..."

"No, it's not..." I interjected, "established case law says that the ammunition must be able to be moved into firing position by the action of the weapon for it to be considered loaded..."

"OK" he finally said, skeptically (after about three times back and forth of 'yes-it-is'/'no-it-isn't') "suit yourself, but I wouldn't do it..."

I responded that I didn't generally do that; that yes, you might get hassled or even arrested for doing so, but that you would prevail in court; and that he shouldn't go around spreading such disinformation.

His response was to ask: "Did you know that if you have a magazine that contains ammunition in your pocket, it is considered a concealed weapon?"

I was amused that his response to my refutation of his FUD was to throw out different FUD. I was just waiting for him to bring up keeping ammo in the container with your gun...

Anyway, he then challenged me with "Where did you get your information? I got mine from the NRA!"

I just shook my head at that, but before I decided whether I should mention calguns.net (I suspected he might not be the type to trust the interwebs-- in retrospect, I regret my hesitation) their round started, and he walked away.

I wonder if the NRA is really spreading that sort of FUD?

hoffmang
07-11-2010, 11:08 PM
I wonder if the NRA is really spreading that sort of FUD?

In one word: no.

-Gene

diginit
07-28-2010, 8:50 PM
Out side of GFSZs only concealed handguns* must be transported/carried pursuant to a 12025 exemption in 12027 (capability of concealment is not the determinant).

*RAWs not discussed

Where is the exemption to this one?

12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the following applies to the firearm: (1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment. (2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container. (b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter. (c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device.

Librarian
07-28-2010, 9:04 PM
Um, what?

12026.1 is an exemption from prosecution for violating 12025, provided you follow the instructions you bolded.

diginit
07-28-2010, 9:23 PM
Can you please give me the PC? The way everyone seems to understand the law, I would go to jail for having an unloaded 1911 on the passenger seat. Even If I buy a new pistol. It cannot leave the store unless it is in a locked case. Why? You are telling me I can just carry it out of the shop and put it on the seat if it is not in a case?
I'm not hunting, on a range or fishing (well, alittle).

TempleKnight
07-28-2010, 9:52 PM
In one word: no.

-Gene

This is from the NRA website. It could easily be misunderstood.

"In California, a firearm is considered loaded if unexpended ammunition capable of being used in the firearm is attached in any manner to the firearm."

diginit
07-28-2010, 10:12 PM
Thanks, I'm very suprised to hear the NRA spreading FUD. I'm familiar with the definition of loaded as per the Heller case #1. It is a round in the chamber ready to fire and/or in a magazine ATTATCHED to the weapon. It is Not attatched in ANY manner. You can have rounds in the stock or on a side mount shell holder.
But with all the FUD I've been reading and hearing, I think we need flow Chart for legal carry of an unloaded firearm to clear things up. Providing AB1934 goes our way and our constitution is not again violated. Any creditable volanteers???

Fate
07-28-2010, 10:13 PM
you can have loaded mags in the case. thats how i carry my xd, but do not carry any mags in your gun while transporting it. in ca a empty mag inserted into a gun in concealed.

You're wrong.

An empty mag in the gun does nothing of the sort and is 100% legal to transport an unloaded gun that way.

dantodd
07-28-2010, 10:22 PM
This is from the NRA website. It could easily be misunderstood.

"In California, a firearm is considered loaded if unexpended ammunition capable of being used in the firearm is attached in any manner to the firearm."

That is taken from the statute. It has since been modified by case law but naturally the legislature isn't in a big hurry to change the wording of the law because the current wording is much more strict even though it is irrelevant.

diginit
07-28-2010, 10:34 PM
naturally the legislature isn't in a big hurry to change the wording of the law because the current wording is much more strict even though it is irrelevant.

Now THAT should be illegal!

Librarian
07-28-2010, 11:00 PM
Can you please give me the PC? The way everyone seems to understand the law, I would go to jail for having an unloaded 1911 on the passenger seat. Even If I buy a new pistol. It cannot leave the store unless it is in a locked case. Why? You are telling me I can just carry it out of the shop and put it on the seat if it is not in a case?
I'm not hunting, on a range or fishing (well, alittle).

There's 2 things to consider here, in different parts of the law: Gun Free School Zones (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Gun_Free_School_Zones) in which you CANNOT unloaded open carry, and everywhere else (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Transporting) (not a prohibited area) where you CAN, if not necessarily wisely in all cases.