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ChuckBooty
06-26-2010, 9:16 PM
A little back story: The end of the year my daughter's 3rd grade class were all made to memorize and recite the 1st Amendment.
As my daughter was approaching her D-Day she asked me to help her memorize it. She was, thus far, just trying to do it by memory. That is to say, she had NO IDEA what she was actually saying or what it meant. This gave me a great chance to go, line by line, and explain what each statement actually MEANT (she rolled her eyes as I started because she knows how I am with this stuff....lol). It worked out GREAT and it gave me a chance (as I do sometimes) to talk to her about the Constitution and to also talk to her about the reality of our education system. I walk a fine line when I do that because I don't want to undermine her teachers authority. Mostly I do it by asking her opinion on things....which is what happened here.

I told her what the SECOND amendment was, read it to her, and told her what it meant. Then I told her that a lot of teachers won't actually teach the second amendment because they personally don't like guns. And I asked her what she thought about that. Being that she's the smartest 3rd Grader on the planet, she said (paraphrasing) that it was sneaky for a teacher to only present one side of the issue because, without BOTH sides, kids won't be able to make up their own minds.

So I gave her some homework (school...homework...uh...hm) anyways....I told her that the next time the class is talking about the 1st amendment, ask her teach what the SECOND amendment is. I gave her strict instructions NOT to challenge her teacher or to start some kind of debate (keep in mind...she's in 3rd grade here) but to just ask the question and tell me what she says (keeping in mind the conversation that we just had about it). So the next day, she asks her teacher. To which the teacher replied, "I don't know...we'll have to look it up sometime.". And changed the subject!

While I'm obviously disappointed in the teachers answer...it feels good to be right in my daughters eyes. That way she'll listen to me NEXT time we have this type of discussion.

stitchnicklas
06-26-2010, 9:31 PM
sad reality of crappy schools

bigtoe416
06-26-2010, 9:31 PM
Wow. I friggin hate liars, and EVERYBODY knows what the second amendment says. I've recently been trying to memorize the entire bill of rights, I'm nearly there, just need the last two, which by comparison, are extremely short.

jamesob
06-26-2010, 9:33 PM
its been like that a long time. i remember in junior high when we did the the bill of rights everything was verbatim and the second was keep and bear arms, and that was it. and that was in 1984

POLICESTATE
06-26-2010, 9:36 PM
It's okay to lie to kids to protect them right?

THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

No wonder kids do drugs in record numbers.

jshoebot
06-26-2010, 9:41 PM
I read the thread title and I couldn't wait to read the story haha. I love it when these threads pop up every so often. I'm glad you had a chance to educate your daughter on the one amendment that lets us protect all the others!

CABilly
06-26-2010, 10:02 PM
Teacher probably didn't want to deal with the headache of explaining both the 2A and zero-tolerance policies to a bunch of curious kids.

ChuckBooty
06-26-2010, 10:18 PM
Teacher probably didn't want to deal with the headache of explaining both the 2A and zero-tolerance policies to a bunch of curious kids.

I agree. I think that she felt that it would send a mixed message to the kids. This school punishes children if they DARE to pretend to have guns on the playground (so no pretending to be cops and robbers, no playing Marines, no GI Joe, no soldiers, no nothing). In fact, when my younger one was in Kindergarten she told me that a kid in her class made a "gun" out of those over-sized leggos. The teacher made all the kids put their toys away immediately and the kid got into trouble.

I actually had another little mini-lesson with my kids (two daughters at the same school) when she told me this. At first, my daughter just kinda thought that the rule was fine, since "guns can hurt people". Then I asked her how she thought these rules made the kids feel whose parents were police officers and carried a gun every day. And what about the kids whose parents were military (like I am)? Are WE bad for having guns? She thought about it for a second and said...."no, that's not very nice for my school to do, is it?".

I just left it at that. My kids are still little so, like I said earlier, I am always consensus that I don't undermine the teacher or the schools authority. But I DO make sure that I get them to think for themselves. We have two sayings that I have them repeat (and they're always accompanied with rolled eyes and cries of , "Daaaah-DEEEE!" lol).

1) NEVER hit first but ALWAYS hit back
2) ALWAYS follow the rules but ALWAYS question authority

Any other parents walking this tight-rope with their kids?

Eat Dirt
06-26-2010, 10:28 PM
sad reality of crappy schools

How True .......

No1. Crappy schools

No.2 . One Good Parent !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bigtwin
06-26-2010, 10:46 PM
Awesome to you Chuck!:clap: I very much applaud your thinking there!
My little girl is only two months old and I somewhat dred when she has to go to school and deal with that type of thing. I only hope I can do it like you did.
Nice parenting skill there!

WoodTurner
06-26-2010, 11:50 PM
I remember back in third and fourth grade, my friends and I would always play "Army" and no one ever had a problem with it. Then we hit fifth grade, went to recess to play our favorite game, and got in trouble. We were told no "gun fingers" and no "gun noises." School got very boring from then on.
After thinking about it, that's about when my grades started to drop.... :confused:


1) NEVER hit first but ALWAYS hit back
2) ALWAYS follow the rules but ALWAYS question authority
nice, +1

Fate
06-27-2010, 12:02 AM
I agree. I think that she felt that it would send a mixed message to the kids. This school punishes children if they DARE to pretend to have guns on the playground (so no pretending to be cops and robbers, no playing Marines, no GI Joe, no soldiers, no nothing). In fact, when my younger one was in Kindergarten she told me that a kid in her class made a "gun" out of those over-sized leggos. The teacher made all the kids put their toys away immediately and the kid got into trouble.

And after Monday, maybe schools can be sued for "zero tolerance" nonsense. I mean, students have recognized 1st amendment rights at school. Why not second amendment (after McDonald) ;)

Hooray for the return of cops and robbers and finger guns!

Sinixstar
06-27-2010, 12:28 AM
If you have reason to believe the teacher is trying to pull one over on your kids - take it up with the principle/school board.

Really though - and please don't take offence to this - it's a little counter productive for you to do stuff like this. Each class is going to have a syllabus that it follows. Was the teacher trying to pull one over on your daughter? Maybe, who knows. More than likely however, the teacher is just trying to follow the syllabus that's been established. Hence the generic "i don't know we'll have to look it up sometime" answer. It was still time to talk about the 1st amendment - so that's the topic the teacher kept it on.

Frankly - i don't see anything wrong with that. If the teacher had tried to lie about the meaning of the 2nd, or spread some kind of false information - I could see getting upset. Frankly thought - it's kind of disturbing you would use your 3rd grade daughter to try to push against the schools like that. It doesn't accomplish anything...

Curtis
06-27-2010, 12:30 AM
1) NEVER hit first but ALWAYS hit back
2) ALWAYS follow the rules but ALWAYS question authority

Any other parents walking this tight-rope with their kids?

I hope to be half as good as you when my boys get to that stage. We haven't had to deal with any of these types of issues with the school.

I agree with your statements, but they won't work with my boys yet. Being three 6 year old boys, the "always hit back" is normal at the moment....I need to work on the context. They always question authority....so we are focusing on respect at the moment.

Funny story about how they pick things up and apply what you say. We have been working on what to do when...... So we did the fire escape, how and when to call 911, etc. I added "what do you do if someone breaks into the house." Nolan was quick to say, "go to mom's room, get the gun and shoot the bad guy." Dad was proud. Mom....not so much.

dantodd
06-27-2010, 12:37 AM
Frankly - i don't see anything wrong with that. If the teacher had tried to lie about the meaning of the 2nd, or spread some kind of false information - I could see getting upset. Frankly thought - it's kind of disturbing you would use your 3rd grade daughter to try to push against the schools like that. It doesn't accomplish anything...

You appear to be unable to recognize a life lesson for a child and have mistaken one for an attempt to "push against the schools." While I won't attempt to speak for Chuck what I got out of the story is a way to instill in your children, from an early age, both a sense of questioning authority and a recognition that those in authority are not infallible. These are important lessons and when taught in the way Chuck seems to be teaching them, playing by the rules while working to change them, they are especially useful.

Sinixstar
06-27-2010, 12:41 AM
You appear to be unable to recognize a life lesson for a child and have mistaken one for an attempt to "push against the schools." While I won't attempt to speak for Chuck what I got out of the story is a way to instill in your children, from an early age, both a sense of questioning authority and a recognition that those in authority are not infallible. These are important lessons and when taught in the way Chuck seems to be teaching them, playing by the rules while working to change them, they are especially useful.


What exactly was being questioned? Again - I could understand if say - the class had learned 9/10 of the original amendments - but conveniently skipped over the 2nd - or if some mis-information had been given out. That wasn't the case. It was time to learn about "the first amendment" - and that's what they were doing.

It wasn't questioning - it was bringing up something unrelated for personal reasons. In the process, the kid's teacher has now also been tipped off that there's likely a "gun nut" in the house who put her up to asking about the 2nd. Seeing as it's highly unlikely for a 3rd grader to bring up a "controversial" subject like that on their own.

But hey - keep up the good work?

obeygiant
06-27-2010, 12:52 AM
What exactly was being questioned? Again - I could understand if say - the class had learned 9/10 of the original amendments - but conveniently skipped over the 2nd - or if some mis-information had been given out. That wasn't the case. It was time to learn about "the first amendment" - and that's what they were doing.

It wasn't questioning - it was bringing up something unrelated for personal reasons. In the process, the kid's teacher has now also been tipped off that there's likely a "gun nut" in the house who put her up to asking about the 2nd. Seeing as it's highly unlikely for a 3rd grader to bring up a "controversial" subject like that on their own.

But hey - keep up the good work?
You must have missed this part:
I gave her strict instructions NOT to challenge her teacher or to start some kind of debate (keep in mind...she's in 3rd grade here) but to just ask the question and tell me what she says (keeping in mind the conversation that we just had about it). So the next day, she asks her teacher. To which the teacher replied, "I don't know...we'll have to look it up sometime.". And changed the subject!
.

If you had kids then you would also understand that it is entirely normal for them to ask "what is the second?" in this type of setting.

dantodd
06-27-2010, 12:56 AM
Seeing as it's highly unlikely for a 3rd grader to bring up a "controversial" subject like that on their own.


What is controversial about asking what is second when this is first?

Sinixstar
06-27-2010, 1:10 AM
.I told her that the next time the class is talking about the 1st amendment, ask her teach what the SECOND amendment is. I gave her strict instructions NOT to challenge her teacher or to start some kind of debate (keep in mind...she's in 3rd grade here) but to just ask the question and tell me what she says (keeping in mind the conversation that we just had about it).


I don't have a problem with the fact the kid asked the question.

I have a problem with a father putting his kid up to it. If you don't see the flaw in that - we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I fully agree with the concept of 'questioning authority'. I have a problem when parents put their kids up to **** they themselves with they could do, but cannot.


also note : if it was that "natural" a question, again, father wouldn't have had to initiate the discussion, and put the kid up to it and give strict instructions not to make it an issue with the teacher. Also - if it wasn't a "controversial" subject for some people, no need for instructions to keep it a light question.

obeygiant
06-27-2010, 1:18 AM
I don't have a problem with the fact the kid asked the question.

I have a problem with a father putting his kid up to it. If you don't see the flaw in that - we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I fully agree with the concept of 'questioning authority'. I have a problem when parents put their kids up to **** they themselves with they could do, but cannot.

also note : if it was that "natural" a question, again, father wouldn't have had to initiate the discussion, and put the kid up to it and give strict instructions not to make it an issue with the teacher. Also - if it wasn't a "controversial" subject for some people, no need for instructions to keep it a light question


Do you have kids? If not, then consider the fact that chuckbooty was taking the time to understand what was being taught to his kid and more importantly opening a dialogue with his child about what she had learned at school.

dantodd
06-27-2010, 1:23 AM
I fully agree with the concept of 'questioning authority'. I have a problem when parents put their kids up to **** they themselves with they could do, but cannot.

You really seem to miss the point of raising kids. A child watches what a parent DOES and copies that behavior. I am quite confident that Chuck is capable of asking the teacher the question but wants his daughter to feel comfortable asking such questions herself so that she builds independence and doesn't have to rely on someone else to stand up for her at every turn. If you read the OP he also encouraged her to interpret the answer the teacher gave in class rather than waiting to hear the response and then telling his daughter what to think.

Of course everyone here wants to instill a strong respect for the right to keep and bear arms in their children. It's sort of the point of our little group. To expect otherwise would be foolish.

As for your assertion that the teacher was simply trying to stay on syllabus that really comes off as disingenuous. Would it really take too much time out of the curriculum to say, "the second amendment is about the right to keep and bear arms, we're just concentrating on the first amendment right now."? Shouldn't take more than 15 seconds and surely the syllabus isn't so tightly scheduled that this is too much of a burden. Clearly the teacher either honestly doesn't know what the second amendment is or his/her own political views on it prevents him/her from addressing the issue in an unbiased manner.

I think it is quite possible that a 3rd grade teacher doesn't know what the 2nd amendment says or means off the top of his/her head.

Sinixstar
06-27-2010, 1:30 AM
I'm not missing the point. The point is - I think it's wrong for a parent to put their kids up to something like this. Having the conversation at home, teaching them yourself - by all means, do it. My parents did it with me - and that's why i grew up to do things like- gee, question authority? Giving your kids "assignments" to go back to school and ask the teacher questions on your behalf is... yea. not so good.


Clearly the teacher either honestly doesn't know what the second amendment is or his/her own political views on it prevents him/her from addressing the issue in an unbiased manner.


Clearly to who? It certainly isn't clear to me.


I think it is quite possible that a 3rd grade teacher doesn't know what the 2nd amendment says or means off the top of his/her head.

And I think it's quite possible that people here are intellectually dishonest just because that dishonesty happens to be loosely gun-related.

Sinixstar
06-27-2010, 1:33 AM
Also - for the record - the "i don't know, we'll have to look it up sometime" isn't that outrageous of an answer. It's a tactic teachers use to help encourage a feeling of discovery.

If the teacher gives a boiler plate answer that just glosses over a subject without really giving any real understandable information - you basically kill the kid's interest in the subject. If you give an answer that you don't know and you'll have to learn together - it keeps the kid's interest in the subject higher. It instills a feeling that the teacher is guiding and helping the kids discover information rather than simply dictating facts. Again, that keeps kid's curiosity and interest in learning at a higher level, and keeps them more engaged then a simple BS answer.


but hey - ya know - keep on assuming...

dantodd
06-27-2010, 1:44 AM
I think it is quite possible that a 3rd grade teacher doesn't know what the 2nd amendment says or means off the top of his/her head.

And I think it's quite possible that people here are intellectually dishonest just because that dishonesty happens to be loosely gun-related.

must be time for bed because either your last made no sense or I am simply unable to grok it after being up for 21 hours on 3 hours sleep.

Sinixstar
06-27-2010, 1:50 AM
must be time for bed because either your last made no sense or I am simply unable to grok it after being up for 21 hours on 3 hours sleep.

It means people will happily look the other way about things that are otherwise unacceptable - just because it has to do with guns somehow.

If this were the other way around - and a parent sent their kid to school with a mission to sabotage the discussion of the 2nd amendment and push an anti-gun agenda - we'd be all up in arms about the parents pushing their personal agenda.

Yet - it's okay if this guy does it for a 'pro - 2nd' agenda? IMO - no, it's not. It's no different. If you have a problem with what the teachers are teaching, take it up with the school. Don't put kids in the position of being pawn in your political game...

press1280
06-27-2010, 3:09 AM
The teacher may not know what the 2A is. The teachers for kids that age probably don't have to know much about the Constitution themselves, just try to work on basic English and Math. Now, if a civics teacher in high school doesn't know the 2A, then we're REALLY in trouble.

I think it's too early for the "indoctrination" alarm bells to be sounding. The First Amendment is pretty broad and covers activities that all people do all the time.

Stealth
06-27-2010, 6:20 AM
To which the teacher replied, "I don't know...we'll have to look it up sometime."

Is your daughter's Teacher known as "Mrs. Brady" ?

gd-bh
06-27-2010, 6:34 AM
The teacher may not know what the 2A is. The teachers for kids that age probably don't have to know much about the Constitution themselves, just try to work on basic English and Math. Now, if a civics teacher in high school doesn't know the 2A, then we're REALLY in trouble.

I think it's too early for the "indoctrination" alarm bells to be sounding. The First Amendment is pretty broad and covers activities that all people do all the time.

The only way that teacher could NOT know what the 2nd Amendment is, is if she herself never made it out of the third grade. AFAIK, teachers need a college degree, as well as extra curriculum for their teaching credential. Now if you got all the way through that, and don't know what the 2nd Amendment is, there is far more wrong with our educational system than can ever be fixed.

As far as too early to indoctrinate the kids....look at the anti-drug/smoking nazi's...they start that in kindergarten now days. It is at a young age when kids learn the most/are the most impressionable. So it makes sense to start the indoctrination early. And I commend the OP for recognizing it, and countering the pure B.S. spouted by the school systems these days. As a father, there isn't a more important job than to teach your kids how to sniff out B.S. and to question the motive behind it.

dantodd
06-27-2010, 6:41 AM
It means people will happily look the other way about things that are otherwise unacceptable - just because it has to do with guns somehow.

If this were the other way around - and a parent sent their kid to school with a mission to sabotage the discussion of the 2nd amendment and push an anti-gun agenda - we'd be all up in arms about the parents pushing their personal agenda.

Yet - it's okay if this guy does it for a 'pro - 2nd' agenda? IMO - no, it's not. It's no different. If you have a problem with what the teachers are teaching, take it up with the school. Don't put kids in the position of being pawn in your political game...

1) Your post was unintelligible if that was your point.

2) I cannot speak for others but I retain no such "intellectual dishonesty"

3) I saw no such "mission to sabotage" and if someone who was anti-gun had their child ask the same question I would have no problem with it. The point was to create a learning experience for the child, not to sabotage a teacher.

4) I missed where Chuck said that he knew the teacher's personal opinion or how they would deal with the question. He did prepare his daughter for what he might expect someone to do who is anti-gun but nowhere was that preparation for the purposes of sabotaging or disrupting the class.

5) You seem wayyyy too sensitive to how a man chooses to educate his children. Talking to your kids about things like this and instilling your values in them should be an every day occurrence. The fact that this particular life-lesson took place in a school should make no difference. Kids learn a lot of "stuff" at school that is not in the curriculum, they learn it from other kids or from the teachers and staff and sometimes it's good to make sure your kids get perspective on the biases that might exist. This seems a good way to introduce them to the issue. A very simple question was asked that gave her cause to believe that sometimes teachers MAY have an agenda which will come through in what they teach.

Stealth
06-27-2010, 6:53 AM
Yet - it's okay if this guy does it for a 'pro - 2nd' agenda? IMO - no, it's not. It's no different. If you have a problem with what the teachers are teaching, take it up with the school. Don't put kids in the position of being pawn in your political game...

Pawn? Poltical game? We have 26 more amendments to teach. Why just stop at the 1st? Ironically it is the 1st amendment that gives everyone, including a 3rd grader the right to talk about the other 26.

CSACANNONEER
06-27-2010, 7:06 AM
I'm not positive that the teacher was lieing. Unfortunately, I am willing to bet that many teachers do not know anything more about the Consititution and it's amendments than what is in the text book they are teaching.

I say, give the teacher a day or two to look it up and get back to the class. If she is a decent teacher, she will want to correctly answer her student's questions. When she doesn't, you can call her and ask her why. Better yet, write her and see if you can get her to answer in writting.

bodger
06-27-2010, 7:11 AM
This thread makes me wonder if the Second Amendment is discussed in schools at all anymore. Or if the education system considers it too hot a topic to inform students of any age that they have the right to own firearms, no matter how convoluted the laws may be that try to thwart the basic right.

I can't recall if it was ever discussed when I was in school. Of course, in those days, we could bring guns to school and leave them in our car if we were going hunting after school. Or just have them in our car without explaining anything.
In the late 1960's in rural Ohio, it just wasn't an issue.

HowardW56
06-27-2010, 7:40 AM
Teacher probably didn't want to deal with the headache of explaining both the 2A and zero-tolerance policies to a bunch of curious kids.

That and the calls from Anti-gun parents upset that she discussed "arms"

ChuckBooty
06-27-2010, 8:01 AM
There was no "political games" here. And it's absolutely STUPID to think that I send my daughter in to somehow sabotage the class discussion. Where was the political statement here? I told my daughter what she might expect throughout her scholastic career when it comes to the 2nd Amendment. She asked a NORMAL question at an appropriate time during class (ok...so this is the 1st amendment, what's the 2nd?). And she accepted the answer that her teacher gave her without further question or challenge (just because she already KNEW what to expect and KNEW what the answer was is irrelevent to everyone involved except for her. It was HER lesson).

So...and I read your posts a few times, with an open mind...I don't really see the problem here. I'm not even indoctrinating my OWN children. I teach them firearm safety and I teach them how to shoot. But thats so that they can make up their OWN mind on whether or not they want to own firearms when they come to be of age. It's all about education. And I want my kids to think BEYOND the institutional, slanted, and biased education that they're going to be taught in Calfornia schools.
Basically, my philosophy is for my kids to do their BEST on every assignment, get their A's, but to be able to recognize when somebody (yes, even an educator) has an agenda.

FatalKitty
06-27-2010, 8:06 AM
The teacher did the right thing.
How was she to know that the question came from a pro-gun home... or from a very anti-gun home.
These topics are sensitive, and despite the undedniable truth of the existance of the second ammendment; there is school policy to consider, which means someones career. There is also parental concern, which could = someones career.
Perhaps this teacher is pro-2a but wanted to take to you before she gave a private lesson or have you show your child what it is and later explain that she agreed.
In a world where schools are so against anything gun related.... there no sense in her making a martyr of herself.

I hope all that made sense I and typing from my phone and still half asleep

ChuckBooty
06-27-2010, 8:13 AM
And Sinixstar, I don't know if you're a parent or not, but your philosophy seems to be to just blindly trust your childrens education to the school district. IMO that philosophy robs kids of the ability to reach their full intellectual potential. I mean....do you really want the school districts in California to be the sole influence on the next generation of citizens? That type of thinking is how we got the CURRENT generation of apathetic, ill-informed, teenagers.
Here's what will happen to our children if we do what you seem to be suggesting.

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gunsmith
06-27-2010, 8:25 AM
CA schoolbooks high school level say the 2A only means that the Nat Guard can have rifles.
One of these days we need to take that on.

Trigger Guard
06-27-2010, 8:28 AM
If you have reason to believe the teacher is trying to pull one over on your kids - take it up with the principle/school board.

Really though - and please don't take offence to this - it's a little counter productive for you to do stuff like this. Each class is going to have a syllabus that it follows. Was the teacher trying to pull one over on your daughter? Maybe, who knows. More than likely however, the teacher is just trying to follow the syllabus that's been established. Hence the generic "i don't know we'll have to look it up sometime" answer. It was still time to talk about the 1st amendment - so that's the topic the teacher kept it on.

Frankly - i don't see anything wrong with that. If the teacher had tried to lie about the meaning of the 2nd, or spread some kind of false information - I could see getting upset. Frankly thought - it's kind of disturbing you would use your 3rd grade daughter to try to push against the schools like that. It doesn't accomplish anything...

Sorry if I am intruding but... This is exactly what creates the "dumb down" of our school children. They know very well how to take an ambitious, curious and intrigued child and tell them (politely) to sit down and shut up! To raise a smarter kid, we must help the child run with any curiosity or question that they might have. Critical thinking cannot be had by removing the the child's willingness to ask questions.

bodger
06-27-2010, 8:32 AM
The teacher did the right thing.
How was she to know that the question came from a pro-gun home... or from a very anti-gun home.
These topics are sensitive, and despite the undedniable truth of the existance of the second ammendment; there is school policy to consider, which means someones career. There is also parental concern, which could = someones career.
Perhaps this teacher is pro-2a but wanted to take to you before she gave a private lesson or have you show your child what it is and later explain that she agreed.
In a world where schools are so against anything gun related.... there no sense in her making a martyr of herself.

I hope all that made sense I and typing from my phone and still half asleep

I see your point, but I think any teacher should be able to explain what the Second Amendment is without crossing any lines that could be construed as improper.
Stating a fact without bias in one direction or the other shouldn't raise parental concerns, and if it did, the onus would be on the parents to prove that the teacher was foisting a position that exceeded the boundaries of explaining the facts as they relate to what is in the Constitution.

If in doubt, the teacher could read the Second Amendment out loud in the classroom. If a parent had a problem with that, they should go to Monticello and shake their fist at Thomas Jefferson's tomb.

CitaDeL
06-27-2010, 8:53 AM
So I gave her some homework (school...homework...uh...hm) anyways....I told her that the next time the class is talking about the 1st amendment, ask her teach what the SECOND amendment is. So the next day, she asks her teacher. To which the teacher replied, "I don't know...we'll have to look it up sometime.". And changed the subject!

Can you blame her? The Supreme Court is only now defining what the 2nd amendment means after more than 200 years of discussion, debate and diffusion- and you want a teacher of 8 year olds to tackle articulating it without prior parental approval? Laudable effort- but you got what you should have expected from a public school drone.

If I ever manage to have a family of my own, they wont step foot in a state school, just to avoid this kind of crap.

N6ATF
06-27-2010, 8:54 AM
Teacher should read it verbatim, then say "I may lose my job for telling you anything more. Ask your parents what it means."

ChuckBooty
06-27-2010, 9:04 AM
Can you blame her? The Supreme Court is only now defining what the 2nd amendment means after more than 200 years of discussion, debate and diffusion- and you want a teacher of 8 year olds to tackle articulating it without prior parental approval? Laudable effort- but you got what you should have expected from a public school drone.

If I ever manage to have a family of my own, they wont step foot in a state school, just to avoid this kind of crap.

There are constitutional challenges in the courts every day...so how hard would it be for the teacher (who had the constitution right in front of her by the way) to read it?

And to answer your question, no. I didn't expect the teacher to answer. And neither did my daughter.

And this isn't exactly a normal state school. http://www.temeculaprep.com/ It's one of the ONLY schools in California that lists Dec 21st as the start of "CHRISTMAS BREAK". So it's not like it's a bastion of liberal propaganda. That's why my kids are there to begin with.

frankm
06-27-2010, 9:24 AM
God, I hate commies. You did a good job!

GuyW
06-27-2010, 9:24 AM
CA schoolbooks high school level say the 2A only means that the Nat Guard can have rifles.
One of these days we need to take that on.

That's a worthy lawsuit...
.

MT1
06-27-2010, 9:31 AM
You did an excellent job of letting your daughter see how the system works a little, while at the same time not being one of those parents that uses their kids to fight against it.

IMO the teacher had a good response considering the volatile environment they work in, she could have been severely reprimanded had some discussion on the 2nd gotten back to a parent who made a big stink about it....which is it's own problem as was said earlier - pacification and catering to the parents that want false truths taught to their children.

Chk Chk Boom
06-27-2010, 9:40 AM
http://www.coderjournal.com/uploads/2008/05/duty_calls.png

Just sayin'

ChuckBooty
06-27-2010, 9:41 AM
You did an excellent job of letting your daughter see how the system works a little, while at the same time not being one of those parents that uses their kids to fight against it.


Thank you! That was my intention. Like I said before, it's like walking a tight-rope. I don't want the schools to indoctrinate my kids and I don't want ME to indoctrinate them either. That's why I ask them questions instead of just lecturing them. I want them to THINK as opposed to blindly following.

And I make it clear to them that they are to follow the rules at the school. Trust me....if one of my kids gets in trouble at school for making a "gun" with their finger and thumb and pretending to shoot "bad guys" on the play ground, they'll be grounded at home too. They know that, while the rule is STUPID and unfair....it's still the rule and they WILL follow it.

IrishPirate
06-27-2010, 9:49 AM
by third grade, kids should be learning ALL of the bill of rights...good for you for teaching her the 1st and 2nd, but there are 8 more to go that are equally important

Kodemonkey
06-27-2010, 9:52 AM
My wife is a teacher and an NRA member. However, when I asked her about this topic she said she could see the need to avoid the topic. She doesn't agree with it, but it only takes one nutjob parent to freak out and it becomes a huge hassle - and if she isn't tenured she would almost certainly lose her job in this market. My wife lost her job as a teacher because the principal had a friend that she wanted to hire and she "needed to create an opening". Guess you wasn't tenured? All she had to say was it was a personality conflict and its totally legal. Teachers have to politic and be lawyers more and more these days because the parents will sue the school over anything. Teaching isn't so much about education anymore as it is about trying to please everybody. Think about 150 different parents all with different cultural backgrounds and not trying to offend any of them (probably easier in elementary school as you are dealing with only 30 or so parents). So teachers are forced to take the point of least hassle if they want to keep their career. Once you have a non re-elect on you record or worse a dismissal you have to disclose that on your job app and you won't even get an interview. Your career is essentially over. So, yeah, I can see that it is wrong but it isn't necessarily the teacher's fault. Its more a fault of the politics that is so entrenched in the CA education system.

tiko
06-27-2010, 9:56 AM
My son 3rd grade teacher does hunting, so does the husband of my daughter 1st grade teacher. That school is still conservative (Roseville district).

7x57
06-27-2010, 9:57 AM
If in doubt, the teacher could read the Second Amendment out loud in the classroom. If a parent had a problem with that, they should got to Monticello and shake their fist at Thomas Jefferson's tomb.

:rofl:

:thumbsup:

7x57

joedogboy
06-27-2010, 10:06 AM
What exactly was being questioned? Again - I could understand if say - the class had learned 9/10 of the original amendments - but conveniently skipped over the 2nd - or if some mis-information had been given out. That wasn't the case. It was time to learn about "the first amendment" - and that's what they were doing.

It wasn't questioning - it was bringing up something unrelated for personal reasons. In the process, the kid's teacher has now also been tipped off that there's likely a "gun nut" in the house who put her up to asking about the 2nd. Seeing as it's highly unlikely for a 3rd grader to bring up a "controversial" subject like that on their own.

But hey - keep up the good work?

With my 1st/2nd summer science class I started day one with our class rules.

It went something like this:

Me: "We are going to have three rules in our class this summer. Our first rule is that we LISTEN when it's another person's turn to talk."

Student: "Mr. Joe, Mr. Joe, what's the SECOND rule?"

Me: "Our second rule is that we ASK QUESTIONS when we want to know something. Let's all agree that we will raise our hands and wait to be called on when we have a question, okay?"

Students: "Okay Mr. Joe!"

Student: "What's the THIRD rule?"

Me: "Our third rule is that we PARTICIPATE in class. Who can tell me what participate means - remember to raise your hand..."

When you tell kids that something is the FIRST of a group, they will immediately become curious about the SECOND of the group as well. This is curiosity, and is a natural thing that we want to encourage in children (and that good teachers encourage in their students).

7x57
06-27-2010, 10:07 AM
I don't want the schools to indoctrinate my kids and I don't want ME to indoctrinate them either. That's why I ask them questions instead of just lecturing them. I want them to THINK as opposed to blindly following.


I think you've actually bought in to part of the problem here. Your *job* is to indoctrinate--the core purpose of education has always been understood to be the Transmission of Value. You can't help it--every single thing she learns is a kind of indoctrination. The only question is whether it is *your* values that are being taught.

The idea that there is such a thing as a "value neutral" education is a fraud that has one purpose--to keep *you* from teaching your values while the school gets to indoctrinate every day. School is *always* indoctrination--your only choice is whether your values are also represented.

When you ask questions, you are implicitly teaching her to attempt to reason to an answer herself instead of accepting one given to her. *That* is indoctrination in a value you have, the value that says critical thinking is of great importance.

To be clear: I'm not saying you did wrong at all--you did exactly right. I am saying you did more right than you give yourself credit for.

Your basic duty as a parent is to teach your core values as well as you can, and to try to ensure that the school to which you entrust her also reflects your values. If you don't accept that, you simply have blindly given her moral and intellectual education to another.


And I make it clear to them that they are to follow the rules at the school. Trust me....if one of my kids gets in trouble at school for making a "gun" with their finger and thumb and pretending to shoot "bad guys" on the play ground, they'll be grounded at home too. They know that, while the rule is STUPID and unfair....it's still the rule and they WILL follow it.

I've had the same thing. I told my boy's preschool teacher I expected him to follow their rules while he was there, including not making guns out of lego bricks--just don't make any extra rules for me, because daddy thinks gun control means using both hands. :D At home--well, daddy thinks lego guns are fun too, and I couldn't care less whether they think that's a bad example or not.

As a boy I had a lego crossbow/gun design that shot hard enough to raise welts--he just doesn't know The Rules well enough for me to show him that kind of lego gun yet.

7x57

joedogboy
06-27-2010, 10:21 AM
As my daughter was approaching her D-Day she asked me to help her memorize it. She was, thus far, just trying to do it by memory. That is to say, she had NO IDEA what she was actually saying or what it meant. This gave me a great chance to go, line by line, and explain what each statement actually MEANT (she rolled her eyes as I started because she knows how I am with this stuff....lol). It worked out GREAT and it gave me a chance (as I do sometimes) to talk to her about the Constitution and to also talk to her about the reality of our education system. I walk a fine line when I do that because I don't want to undermine her teachers authority. Mostly I do it by asking her opinion on things....which is what happened here.

Keep in mind that you, the parent, are the most important "teacher" in your child's life, and that it is your duty as a parent to educate your child.

The school system is there to fill in some blank spaces (not every parent is ready or able to teach reading or geometry), ensure that a certain variety of things are covered (as required by laws made by our elected representatives), to smooth out some rough edges, and otherwise assist you in educating your child. In some - tragic - cases, the parents take no responsibility for actively teaching their children anything, other than the negative and self-centered lifestyle behaviors that the children witness at home, on tv, and in their neighborhoods.

I'm hoping that the teacher actually intended for the assignment to start conversations at home that allow parents to share their own personal values and views with the students - just as it did for you and your daughter. I know that I set up many assignments with just such a hope - that the family will become involved and provide specific education that I am not allowed to
really cover in my classroom for fear of losing my job.

Sinixstar
06-27-2010, 12:57 PM
guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
Glad so many people are willing to look the other way on a bonehead move.

Like I said before - keep the uh - good work?

GuyW
06-27-2010, 1:22 PM
This is a home run...

Keep in mind that you, the parent, are the most important "teacher" in your child's life, and that it is your duty as a parent to educate your child.

The school system is there to fill in some blank spaces (not every parent is ready or able to teach reading or geometry), ensure that a certain variety of things are covered (as required by laws made by our elected representatives), to smooth out some rough edges, and otherwise assist you in educating your child. In some - tragic - cases, the parents take no responsibility for actively teaching their children anything, other than the negative and self-centered lifestyle behaviors that the children witness at home, on tv, and in their neighborhoods.

I'm hoping that the teacher actually intended for the assignment to start conversations at home that allow parents to share their own personal values and views with the students - just as it did for you and your daughter. I know that I set up many assignments with just such a hope - that the family will become involved and provide specific education that I am not allowed to
really cover in my classroom for fear of losing my job.

Vectrexer
06-27-2010, 1:35 PM
If you have reason to believe the teacher is trying to pull one over on your kids - take it up with the principle/school board.

Really though - and please don't take offense to this - it's a little counter productive for you to do stuff like this. Each class is going to have a syllabus that it follows. Was the teacher trying to pull one over on your daughter? Maybe, who knows. More than likely however, the teacher is just trying to follow the syllabus that's been established. Hence the generic "i don't know we'll have to look it up sometime" answer. It was still time to talk about the 1st amendment - so that's the topic the teacher kept it on.

Frankly - i don't see anything wrong with that. If the teacher had tried to lie about the meaning of the 2nd, or spread some kind of false information - I could see getting upset. Frankly thought - it's kind of disturbing you would use your 3rd grade daughter to try to push against the schools like that. It doesn't accomplish anything...


Didn't accomplish anything? What? You don't count thinking for yourself as something? You don't count dissecting and analyzing human behavior as it relates to learning as educational? As well as a whole host of other topics that father's activity sparked. If not, then just stick your head back into the sand. I think he did right to have the daughter as the question and be done with it. No challenge. Just bring up the topic and let it play out as needed. If nothing else he elevated his daughter's sense of investigation. Always good for a scientific mind.

Sinixstar
06-27-2010, 2:17 PM
Didn't accomplish anything? What? You don't count thinking for yourself as something? You don't count dissecting and analyzing human behavior as it relates to learning as educational? *** well as a whole host of other topics that father's activity sparked. If not, then just stick your head back into the sand. I think he did right to have the daughter as the question and be done with it. No challenge. Just bring up the topic and let it play out as needed. If nothing else he elevated his daughter's sense of investigation. Always good for a scientific mind.

wow - and you people are trying to accuse me of not being able to "get it"?

go back and try again.

smarter
06-27-2010, 2:56 PM
To which the teacher replied, "I don't know...we'll have to look it up sometime.". And changed the subject!


Should take her tenure away and hire someone who does know!!

joedogboy
06-27-2010, 3:05 PM
This is a home run...

It seems that many of the people who are most critical of public or "government" schools are also people who abdicate all responsibility for their children's education to the schools, and then are not happy that the school doesn't teach what they think their kids should learn.

Sinixstar
06-27-2010, 3:06 PM
It seems that many of the people who are most critical of public or "government" schools are also people who abdicate all responsibility for their children's education to the schools, and then are not happy that the school doesn't teach what they think their kids should learn.


I'm just not convinced you "get it". Do you have kids?

SJgunguy24
06-27-2010, 3:19 PM
Pawn? Poltical game? We have 26 more amendments to teach. Why just stop at the 1st? Ironically it is the 1st amendment that gives everyone, including a 3rd grader the right to talk about the other 26.

Yes and the second amendment protects all of the others. One of the most hypocritical things anybody can do is wrap themselves in the constitution and the flag but completely disregard everything but the 1st, 4th, and the 5th amendment.

I like to ask people about the 13th and they go slack jawed and drool. That's the one that ended slavery dummy.

ChuckBooty
06-27-2010, 5:59 PM
guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
Glad so many people are willing to look the other way on a bonehead move.

Like I said before - keep the uh - good work?

I don't understand your position here.

Do you NOT believe that parents have a right and duty to raise their children to be critical thinkers? This had NOTHING to do with confronting the teacher or the school district on their ideology. This was a private lesson that I taught my daughter. And it goes beyond just the 2nd amendment issue too....she learned that there might be a bit more to this world than the narrow criteria being taught to her by California's department of education.

Do you think that we, as parents, should just allow the so-called "experts" to raise our children? If not, how do YOU suggest we teach our children these lessons?

We can agree to disagree if you'd like. But I'd rather understand your point of view.

Radiant
06-27-2010, 6:21 PM
Chuckbooty,

I just can't see any evidence to prove that the teacher would not tell your kid about the 2nd because they are agaist guns. But it did stir up the kind of responses I'd expect, namely how dumb teachers are and how bad the schools are etc.

All that from your little story and a bunch of readers that want an opportunity to slam a teacher and a school they don't know.

Now, for a moment, take a look at what happens if the teacher tells your child that the 2nd recognises the right we all have to keep and bear arms. That that right will not be infringed according to the ammendment.

All the other kids go home and tell their parents that the teacher says all of them and all others have the right to have guns. Everyone, all the people. Do you have any idea what the response to that would be? "When can I get mine Daddy?". It would look like parents against the constitution and against the school. The teacher would be seen as a gun nut and layed off until the issue was settled. And since it's not even settled in the Supreme Court, that could be a while.

I suggest your argument is with an uninformed public, not with a school that represesnts that public and it's views and wants to stay out of controversy. Further, I suggest that assuming the teacher either doesn't know or is against guns and preaching her own agenda is a conclusion that you really are not in a position to make. But it does give you a chance to grandstand about how terrible the schools are and allows you to make fun of them from a distance and rile up others who also want to slam what they don't understand.

Teach your child the things they don't learn in school, yourself. Show them another point of view. Visit the school and get involved there yourself. Talk to other parents. That's what I did and I have a very successful daughter that is curious and affective. Now, her kids are being exposed to information from many sources to.

ChuckBooty
06-27-2010, 6:45 PM
I think you're reading way too much into the whole thing. What it boils down to is that the constitution (and all of it's subsequent amendments) DOES exist as a historical document. A student asks a question about what is ON that document. The teacher SHOULD have answered the question.

I'm not saying that she should have given a lesson on firearms or a speech about the importance of firearm safety and effective marksmanship. I'm just saying that the teacher could have simply said, "the second amendment gives Americans the right to keep and bear arms". Simple, concise, and more importantly, FACTUAL.

Radiant
06-27-2010, 7:04 PM
[QUOTE=
I'm not saying that she should have given a lesson on firearms or a speech about the importance of firearm safety and effective marksmanship. I'm just saying that the teacher could have simply said, "the second amendment gives Americans the right to keep and bear arms". Simple, concise, and more importantly, FACTUAL.[/QUOTE]


That would have been a fine response from the teacher. And mostly, appropriate. Better than "I don't know", but still not really factual. The wording uses "people" and it says "shall not be infringed". It recognizes or defines a right, more than it does "give" a right.

Best would have been to just read it to your daughter and supply all students with a list of them. By teaching all of them, none are singled out by a few folks for their own agenda. Maybe she was starting the list when all this came up. A good way to start the lesson would have been to give out the list at the start.

Sinixstar
06-27-2010, 7:09 PM
I don't understand your position here.

Do you NOT believe that parents have a right and duty to raise their children to be critical thinkers? This had NOTHING to do with confronting the teacher or the school district on their ideology. This was a private lesson that I taught my daughter. And it goes beyond just the 2nd amendment issue too....she learned that there might be a bit more to this world than the narrow criteria being taught to her by California's department of education.

Do you think that we, as parents, should just allow the so-called "experts" to raise our children? If not, how do YOU suggest we teach our children these lessons?

We can agree to disagree if you'd like. But I'd rather understand your point of view.


Let me try to explain this again...

Teaching your kid to think for themselves, not just blindly digest what they're told, etc - all good and noble things. For that you should be proud.

Sending your kid to school with an "assignment" to provoke the teacher into a 2nd amendment discussion - pathetic.

Is that clear enough?

Seesm
06-27-2010, 7:18 PM
Obviously we do not have thousands of years to teach children everything but it saddens me and quite laughable that they would not want to teach ALL the amendments...

Bottom line:
The teacher is a lame A** and so if the school...

I would go in to the school and offer up yourself to teach a improptu class on ALL of them. :)

Let's teach our kids something that may be able to show them WHERE we came so we can decide where we are going.

Radiant
06-27-2010, 7:23 PM
Seesm,

How have you been able to conclude from the story that the school does not "want" to teach all the ammendments?

ChuckBooty
06-27-2010, 7:33 PM
Sending your kid to school with an "assignment" to provoke the teacher into a 2nd amendment discussion - pathetic.

Is that clear enough?

OK...I see what you're saying. You either didn't read my description of what happened or you don't understand what it means to provoke. Lets see if I can help:

Definitions of provoke:

* arouse: call forth (emotions, feelings, and responses); "arouse pity"; "raise a smile"; "evoke sympathy"

* evoke or provoke to appear or occur; "Her behavior provoked a quarrel between the couple"

* provide the needed stimulus for

* harass: annoy continually or chronically; "He is known to harry his staff when he is overworked"; "This man harasses his female co-workers"

Where was the provocation? They were discussing the 1st amendment and a normal question from a student would be "well what is the SECOND one?". When the teacher gave her answer, my daughter (as per my instructions) nodded and dropped the subject.

We can "agree to disagree" if you'd like...but don't try to twist and mis-characterize what actually happened here.

Sinixstar
06-27-2010, 7:49 PM
OK...I see what you're saying. You either didn't read my description of what happened or you don't understand what it means to provoke. Lets see if I can help:



Where was the provocation? They were discussing the 1st amendment and a normal question from a student would be "well what is the SECOND one?". When the teacher gave her answer, my daughter (as per my instructions) nodded and dropped the subject.

We can "agree to disagree" if you'd like...but don't try to twist and mis-characterize what actually happened here.

The reason why i reject this line of thinking as BS - is because your daughter clearly didn't come up with that question on her own. You had to put her up to it. Yes - in theory, it would be a perfectly legitimate question, but given the circumstances it was not, since she was asking to satisfy YOUR curiosity...


* arouse: call forth (emotions, feelings, and responses); "arouse pity"; "raise a smile"; "evoke sympathy"

* evoke or provoke to appear or occur; "Her behavior provoked a quarrel between the couple"

* provide the needed stimulus for

* harass: annoy continually or chronically; "He is known to harry his staff when he is overworked"; "This man harasses his female co-workers"

Yes - you sent her into the classroom armed with a question to ask, trying to get the answer you assumed the teacher would give.
By your own definition you quoted - you were attempting to provoke an anti-2nd answer from the teacher. She (the teacher) instead did a check swing and chose not to take that one after all, and now you're pissed?

(excuse the baseball analogy, but i'm watching the Yankees/Dodgers game..)

Sinixstar
06-27-2010, 7:57 PM
Just for the sake of clarity - i went back and re-read the original post.

As a result - I stand by my statements 110%.

She came to you regarding an assignment that was specifically about the 1st amendment. It wasn't about the constitution where the 2nd got glossed over - by your words, it was specifically the 1st amendment.

You sent her back to class with a skepticism about her school teachers, and the urge to ask questions about an unrelated subject (2nd amendment when the assignment is about the 1st) based on that skepticism.

Sorry - but I think that's slimy.

dantodd
06-27-2010, 8:15 PM
Sorry - but I think that's slimy.

By the numerous and derogatory posts you have made here about ChuckBooty we actually all understood this long ago.

Santa Cruz Armory
06-27-2010, 8:50 PM
Another reason my daughter is in private Christian school. The public school system is, and has been a JOKE for decades. The disgusting leftist drivel that the majority of teachers and professors teach makes me nauseous!

I fully believe education starts in the home, but also believe that the parents have to do more than just trust "school" to provide real life education. Teachers WILL teach their slant. It's our responsibility as parents to correct or reinforce what the teachers feed our kids. Bottom line... it sounds like ChuckBooty is involved in his daughters life. That's a HUGE advantage for her right there.

Fine job ChuckBooty! Sinixstar is just looking for debate. Hopefully he doesn't really believe that crap he's trying to feed us.

joedogboy
06-27-2010, 9:29 PM
I'm just not convinced you "get it". Do you have kids?

Yes. As many as 200 each year since 2005. ;)

But I only have them for part of the day, and only for 180 days each year.

So of course I am not going to be able to teach them as much as their parents need to be teaching them.

ChuckBooty
06-27-2010, 9:29 PM
Just for the sake of clarity - i went back and re-read the original post.

As a result - I stand by my statements 110%.

She came to you regarding an assignment that was specifically about the 1st amendment. It wasn't about the constitution where the 2nd got glossed over - by your words, it was specifically the 1st amendment.

You sent her back to class with a skepticism about her school teachers, and the urge to ask questions about an unrelated subject (2nd amendment when the assignment is about the 1st) based on that skepticism.

Sorry - but I think that's slimy.

Can't disagree with you there. I DID take an assignment that was about the 1st amendment (which she still can recite from memory to this day, by the way) and turn it into more. I took the opportunity to show her that there is more for her to learn other than the standard cookie-cutter stuff she's learning in school.

My purpose WAS to give her a healthy skepticism, not just about her teachers, but of EVERYONE who is in "power". My goal with my children is that they go through their scholastic career and learn the material, but to also question WHY they are learning the material and to question WHAT might be left OUT of that material.

Nobody was provoked here...the teacher had NO IDEA that my daughter already knew the answer to that question. But I feel bad for the kids whose parents share your philosophy because they DON'T know the answer to that question.

The parents who share YOUR philosophy are content to let someone ELSE be the center of influence in their childrens lives. They're content to let the Department of Education shape and mold them into the type of citizen that the DOE wants.

I'm not a perfect Dad (nobody is), but I can tell you that I will ALWAYS strive to lead my children into becoming dynamic and critical thinking Americans. But I suppose that I (and other parents who lead their kids in the same direction) should be grateful for you and your ilk....the world will always need sheep. How else will the Shepards get their wool?

HkFan416
06-27-2010, 10:22 PM
Awesome, you seem like a great dad :)

Meplat
06-27-2010, 11:16 PM
You must be a CTA member.:43:

What exactly was being questioned? Again - I could understand if say - the class had learned 9/10 of the original amendments - but conveniently skipped over the 2nd - or if some mis-information had been given out. That wasn't the case. It was time to learn about "the first amendment" - and that's what they were doing.

It wasn't questioning - it was bringing up something unrelated for personal reasons. In the process, the kid's teacher has now also been tipped off that there's likely a "gun nut" in the house who put her up to asking about the 2nd. Seeing as it's highly unlikely for a 3rd grader to bring up a "controversial" subject like that on their own.

But hey - keep up the good work?

Meplat
06-27-2010, 11:23 PM
So, don't teach your kids to question the PC bull scat they are being spoon fed. Good lord help us!

I don't have a problem with the fact the kid asked the question.

I have a problem with a father putting his kid up to it. If you don't see the flaw in that - we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I fully agree with the concept of 'questioning authority'. I have a problem when parents put their kids up to **** they themselves with they could do, but cannot.


also note : if it was that "natural" a question, again, father wouldn't have had to initiate the discussion, and put the kid up to it and give strict instructions not to make it an issue with the teacher. Also - if it wasn't a "controversial" subject for some people, no need for instructions to keep it a light question.

Meplat
06-27-2010, 11:32 PM
Do you know that a very high percentage of public school teachers send their own children to private schools?:p

Also - for the record - the "i don't know, we'll have to look it up sometime" isn't that outrageous of an answer. It's a tactic teachers use to help encourage a feeling of discovery.

If the teacher gives a boiler plate answer that just glosses over a subject without really giving any real understandable information - you basically kill the kid's interest in the subject. If you give an answer that you don't know and you'll have to learn together - it keeps the kid's interest in the subject higher. It instills a feeling that the teacher is guiding and helping the kids discover information rather than simply dictating facts. Again, that keeps kid's curiosity and interest in learning at a higher level, and keeps them more engaged then a simple BS answer.


but hey - ya know - keep on assuming...

Meplat
06-27-2010, 11:56 PM
Sinixstar might be just fine with that?

And Sinixstar, I don't know if you're a parent or not, but your philosophy seems to be to just blindly trust your childrens education to the school district. IMO that philosophy robs kids of the ability to reach their full intellectual potential. I mean....do you really want the school districts in California to be the sole influence on the next generation of citizens? That type of thinking is how we got the CURRENT generation of apathetic, ill-informed, teenagers.
Here's what will happen to our children if we do what you seem to be suggesting.

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Anchors
06-28-2010, 12:09 AM
CA schoolbooks high school level say the 2A only means that the Nat Guard can have rifles.
One of these days we need to take that on.

Really?
That sucks.
I went to school in Arizona and definitely went more in depth than that into 2A even before high school.
Even though Phoenix is a high crime area, no one is really afraid of guns.
We all saw guns almost on a daily basis.

Also, in my Political Science class that was REQUIRED (as part of GenEd) by the state of CA to be taken in college, my professor discussed many controversial issues. He delved into gun rights and 2A quite a bit in lectures, as well as the rest of the BoR and the constitution in general.
From what I inferred he detested both conservatives and liberals and strongly supported civil liberties and gun rights, but let the class of 300+ students take whatever they wanted from his class. He had no qualms about making people uncomfortable though. He has a law degree and a PhD. Great guy! and he taught truly because he loved it, he already made his money in life through law and "risk analysis" so he was willing to teach at a community college for MUCH less than his time is worth.

(Sorry, a bit off topic. Just thought I'd shed some silver-lining on the California educational system.)

bjl333
06-28-2010, 12:14 AM
When I was in elementary school we had to memorize all of the amendments. The second was not glazed over. This was about 15 years ago.



+1 ... but quite a bit longer !!!

colossians323
06-28-2010, 3:05 AM
So the next day, she asks her teacher. To which the teacher replied, "I don't know...we'll have to look it up sometime.". And changed the subject!

While I'm obviously disappointed in the teachers answer...it feels good to be right in my daughters eyes. That way she'll listen to me NEXT time we have this type of discussion.

Reason 936 why not to send your kids to the state owned reeducation kamps;)

Scratch705
06-28-2010, 4:34 AM
Also, in my Political Science class that was REQUIRED (as part of GenEd) by the state of CA to be taken in college, my professor discussed many controversial issues. He delved into gun rights and 2A quite a bit in lectures, as well as the rest of the BoR and the constitution in general.
From what I inferred he detested both conservatives and liberals and strongly supported civil liberties and gun rights, but let the class of 300+ students take whatever they wanted from his class. He had no qualms about making people uncomfortable though. He has a law degree and a PhD. Great guy! and he taught truly because he loved it, he already made his money in life through law and "risk analysis" so he was willing to teach at a community college for MUCH less than his time is worth.

(Sorry, a bit off topic. Just thought I'd shed some silver-lining on the California educational system.)

not mine........ my prof hated libertarians, loves keynesian economics, seems to dislike the GOP. he never made it truely clear what his political stance was (or i just didn't know enough about politics to get a judge). and our textbook had 1 paragraph on 2nd Amendment out of the whole 700 page book. and of course during lecture, it was quickly glossed over and he focused more on 1st

yellowfin
06-28-2010, 4:45 AM
A professor who endorses Keynesian "economics" lacks any credibility whatsoever.

Neo Sharkey
06-28-2010, 6:54 AM
ChuckBooty is right, the teacher is pushing her agenda. It wouldn't have taken that much time to read off the Bill of Rights, and then discuss each one in turn. Funny how the left expects us to sit quietly while they try to convince our kids of their point of view in the name of "fairness" but they rush to shut us down when its our turn.

Chuck, good on you for teaching your daughter right.

Private school costs a bunch (gee, wonder why we never got a school voucher program) but at least there they aren't pushing the far left agenda. My boy is in second grade, and the worst he's come home with so far is that we should turn off the water & lights if we aren't using them.

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 7:04 AM
LOL - you people crack me up.
Seriously. Can't grasp simple concepts - yet you want to throw insults my way as if *I* don't get it....


Beat a little harder guys - your chests ain't red enough yet...

Stealth
06-28-2010, 7:05 AM
You sent her back to class with a skepticism about her school teachers, and the urge to ask questions about an unrelated subject (2nd amendment when the assignment is about the 1st) based on that skepticism.

Both are amendments. Both are in the highest document of law in this nation. How are they not related?

Kids should have skepticism. It was skepticism that had many great minds that made life better. What if Gallieo agreed with the church? What if science did not ask questions?

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 7:16 AM
Both are amendments. Both are in the highest document of law in this nation. How are they not related?

Kids should have skepticism. It was skepticism that had many great minds that made life better. What if Gallieo agreed with the church? What if science did not ask questions?


Because that's NOT WHAT THE ASSIGNMENT WAS ABOUT!

The 2nd amendment is NOT RELEVANT TO AN ASSIGNMENT TO MEMORIZE THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

They are SEPARATE AMENDMENTS. 1st != 2nd.
1!=2
2!=1

How f'ing hard is it for people to understand this SIMPLE CONCEPT?


This isn't to say the 2nd isn't important and shouldn't be covered. Just that it was not the topic at hand. It was not relevant to the assignment. It was not appropriate to try to hijack a conversation about the first and turn it into a conversation about the 2nd.

Put it in a different context:

If my son/daughter is in science class - and they have an assignment specific to newton's first law of motion ("Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it."). I decide to say "well - i think newton's 2nd law of motion is more important, i'm going to teach him that". If i send my son/daughter back to class armed with information about the 2nd law of motion and not the 1st - i would expect my kid to fail. Why? Because as important as the 2nd is - the topic at hand was the 1st....

It's not making any political statements. Sometimes there is no political statement to be made. It's just a matter of what is the topic at hand?
How f'ing difficult is that to understand?

joedogboy
06-28-2010, 7:32 AM
Because that's NOT WHAT THE ASSIGNMENT WAS ABOUT!

The 2nd amendment is NOT RELEVANT TO AN ASSIGNMENT TO MEMORIZE THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

They are SEPARATE AMENDMENTS. 1st != 2nd.
1!=2

2!=1

How f'ing hard is it for people to understand this SIMPLE CONCEPT?

You obviously don't understand the concept of engaging students in dynamic learning.

If you engage students in dynamic learning about the First Law of Thermodynamics, they will immediately want to know what the Second Law of Thermodynamics is.

This follow on interest is indicative of higher order thinking on the part of students, as well as effective teaching on the part of the teacher.

While the teacher may not have felt comfortable answering questions about the Second Amendment - either due to personal beliefs (doesn't want to teach their own version, or doesn't want to teach it at all) or fear of repercussions from the "thought police" that pervade educational administration - teachers should be prepared for such a logical follow on question. They should also be prepared for follow on questions about the First amendment, and how it is applied (i.e. the current doctrine of "separation of church and state" and the suppression of Christianity in the public arena while other religions are embraced under the cloak of "diversity education"). This is what teaching is about.

In this case, it seems that the teacher created an assignment that allowed/encouraged students to involve their parents in a discussion of the Bill of Rights, and their own family values - which is exactly what the OP did.

The OP clearly did not ignore the assignment about the First Amendment, but gave his child additional information about other elements of the Bill of Rights. He also (quite rightly) encouraged his child to realize that people - even educators - have personal agendas, and that there are ways to reveal what these agendas may be. He didn't undermine the teacher's authority, or send his daughter in to absolutely disrupt and derail the lesson. He encouraged her to ask a logical follow on question, to take note of the answer, and to think critically.

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 7:37 AM
You obviously don't understand the concept of engaging students in dynamic learning.

If you engage students in dynamic learning about the First Law of Thermodynamics, they will immediately want to know what the Second Law of Thermodynamics is.

This follow on interest is indicative of higher order thinking on the part of students, as well as effective teaching on the part of the teacher.

While the teacher may not have felt comfortable answering questions about the Second Amendment - either due to personal beliefs (doesn't want to teach their own version, or doesn't want to teach it at all) or fear of repercussions from the "thought police" that pervade educational administration - teachers should be prepared for such a logical follow on question. They should also be prepared for follow on questions about the First amendment, and how it is applied (i.e. the current doctrine of "separation of church and state" and the suppression of Christianity in the public arena while other religions are embraced under the cloak of "diversity education"). This is what teaching is about.

In this case, it seems that the teacher created an assignment that allowed/encouraged students to involve their parents in a discussion of the Bill of Rights, and their own family values - which is exactly what the OP did.

I understand that - but clearly the assignment was more limited in scope to specifically the 1st. As evidenced by the fact that everything about the assignment was about the 1st, and the teacher breezed over questions about other amendments.

ChuckBooty
06-28-2010, 7:39 AM
Put it in a different context:

If my son/daughter is in science class - and they have an assignment specific to newton's first law of motion ("Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it."). I decide to say "well - i think newton's 2nd law of motion is more important, i'm going to teach him that". If i send my son/daughter back to class armed with information about the 2nd law of motion and not the 1st - i would expect my kid to fail. Why? Because as important as the 2nd is - the topic at hand was the 1st....


Your still misrepresenting the facts here. That's NOT what happened. To use your analogy it is more like this:

Your kid MASTERS the 1st law of motion so you decide to keep the learning going and you teach him/her the second one.

Then you explain that, while the second law is just as valid and just as important as the one that he/she just learned, a lot of times the school district and teachers won't teach that one because some people don't LIKE the second law and they don't want the KIDS to like the second law either. In fact, you say, why don't you just ask your teacher what the second law is while you're talking about the first one. Just see what she says. Don't start a debate and DON'T let her know that you already know the answer. Just test the system a bit.

Stealth
06-28-2010, 7:40 AM
It's just a matter of what is the topic at hand?
How f'ing difficult is that to understand?

There are no boundaries on a topic. If you introduce a lesson in a classroom and it leads to more, shouldn't that be good?

Why are you wanting to restrict or focus only on the specific target of the 1st amendment in this case? Why can't you understand that it lead for a child and a parent too not only communicate what the child learns in school but offered a parent to be involved and teach more? You have to critize it and put a negative response to a otherwise positive situtation

If you teach based on the idea that you should only focus on the specifics and not allow it to grow, then you are essentially teaching and reinforcing the idea to our childern "Hey it's not good to think outside the box"

You are then teaching a generation of people to only think what they are told to think. Now how difficult is this for YOU to understand?

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 7:42 AM
jesus christ - i give up.

You're right - everything and anything should turn into a conversation on the 2nd.

How silly of me to think that there's anything to life OTHER then the 2nd...

i give up.

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 7:45 AM
Your still misrepresenting the facts here. That's NOT what happened. To use your analogy it is more like this:

Your kid MASTERS the 1st law of motion so you decide to keep the learning going and you teach him/her the second one.

Then you explain that, while the second law is just as valid and just as important as the one that he/she just learned, a lot of times the school district and teachers won't teach that one because some people don't LIKE the second law and they don't want the KIDS to like the second law either. In fact, you say, why don't you just ask your teacher what the second law is while you're talking about the first one. Just see what she says. Don't start a debate and DON'T let her know that you already know the answer. Just test the system a bit.

Clearly the rest of the class hasn't "mastered" the first as well as your daughter.

Maybe you should talk to the school and have her bumped up a grade or put in a gifted and talented program - clearly she's lightyears beyond everybody else.

daveinwoodland
06-28-2010, 7:45 AM
My neighbor is a long haul truck driver and he recently had his Grandson with him for a 5 day drive that included cities in New Mexico. He told his Grandson to stay in the truck at one particular spot because there had been trouble in the past.

He asked why and Grandpa told him that this was one of the largest Navajo Indian reservations in the US.

He replied "Those are Indians?" to which his Grandpa said yes, most of those people right there are Navajos. To which he replied "Grandpa, our teacher told us we killed all the Indians"

Grandpa is going to have a discussion with said teacher.

ChuckBooty
06-28-2010, 8:02 AM
Clearly the rest of the class hasn't "mastered" the first as well as your daughter.

Maybe you should talk to the school and have her bumped up a grade or put in a gifted and talented program - clearly she's lightyears beyond everybody else.

No...the whole class is that bright. It's a good school!

N6ATF
06-28-2010, 8:32 AM
jesus christ - i give up.

You're right - everything and anything should turn into a conversation on the 2nd.

How silly of me to think that there's anything to life OTHER then the 2nd...

i give up.

You've just now realized that members of a gun forum would want their children to learn about guns despite educational systems' antipathy to the topic? :p

Our lives, our right to free speech, are forfeit without self-defense.

thegratenate
06-28-2010, 8:48 AM
Good for you CB.

The bright side is that the teacher had the restraint to not try and "explain" to the students how outdated and irrelevant (she thinks) the Second Amendment is. If a teacher is not prepared to provide unbiased information on a subject I am much happier if they refrain from teaching it.

On the subject of the Amendments, my son just finished the sixth grade and one of his assignments was to explain which amendment he thought was the most important, I had to gently coax him away from the Second, I was afraid that the concept may have been a little much for the mind of his young teacher.

Meplat
06-28-2010, 8:56 AM
You seem to be irrationally and highly emotionally invested in the picking of an extremely small nit.:rolleyes:


Because that's NOT WHAT THE ASSIGNMENT WAS ABOUT!

The 2nd amendment is NOT RELEVANT TO AN ASSIGNMENT TO MEMORIZE THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

They are SEPARATE AMENDMENTS. 1st != 2nd.
1!=2
2!=1

How f'ing hard is it for people to understand this SIMPLE CONCEPT?


This isn't to say the 2nd isn't important and shouldn't be covered. Just that it was not the topic at hand. It was not relevant to the assignment. It was not appropriate to try to hijack a conversation about the first and turn it into a conversation about the 2nd.

Put it in a different context:

If my son/daughter is in science class - and they have an assignment specific to newton's first law of motion ("Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it."). I decide to say "well - i think newton's 2nd law of motion is more important, i'm going to teach him that". If i send my son/daughter back to class armed with information about the 2nd law of motion and not the 1st - i would expect my kid to fail. Why? Because as important as the 2nd is - the topic at hand was the 1st....

It's not making any political statements. Sometimes there is no political statement to be made. It's just a matter of what is the topic at hand?
How f'ing difficult is that to understand?

Merc1138
06-28-2010, 9:02 AM
Regardless of your opinion of the 2nd, or of the teacher's opinion, the way you describe how your daughter reported the teacher's reaction, sounds like the teacher was intentionally avoiding a debate regarding a loaded question that the student may or may not have been put up to.

Now claiming she didn't remember, that was silly. However as far as the teacher not deciding to teach the students(and your daughter) her or her own personal views, dodged the question. This teacher may come up with some lesson involving the 2nd amendment later on when he/she is actually prepared for it, instead of just a response to an out of left field question.

This doesn't mean your daughter's teacher is some liberal gun grabbing hippie whacko nutjob. It means the teacher is either an idiot and seriously forgot, or didn't want to change subjects.

Meplat
06-28-2010, 9:04 AM
I thought you just gave up?


Clearly the rest of the class hasn't "mastered" the first as well as your daughter.

Maybe you should talk to the school and have her bumped up a grade or put in a gifted and talented program - clearly she's lightyears beyond everybody else.

ZRX61
06-28-2010, 9:15 AM
My kid is about to start 7th grade, at her elementary school the kids aren't allowed to say "gun"....

One day I hope she does a paper or a project where she can use this photo of my *guns*....... ;)


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v317/ZRX61/ZRXGarage/3-28-10006.jpg

Just this past week she got a fairly comprehensive airbrush kit to play with & picked it up right away, so it's only a matter of time before she progresses to my *high caliber* guns ...

H.M.
06-28-2010, 9:16 AM
ChuckBooty, you are doing a great job. Wish we had more parents like you.

Here is your only problem:

....I don't undermine the teacher or the schools authority....

Get some!

ChuckBooty
06-28-2010, 11:15 AM
Regardless of your opinion of the 2nd, or of the teacher's opinion, the way you describe how your daughter reported the teacher's reaction, sounds like the teacher was intentionally avoiding a debate regarding a loaded question that the student may or may not have been put up to.

Now claiming she didn't remember, that was silly. However as far as the teacher not deciding to teach the students(and your daughter) her or her own personal views, dodged the question. This teacher may come up with some lesson involving the 2nd amendment later on when he/she is actually prepared for it, instead of just a response to an out of left field question.

This doesn't mean your daughter's teacher is some liberal gun grabbing hippie whacko nutjob. It means the teacher is either an idiot and seriously forgot, or didn't want to change subjects.

Right...and I never said that the teacher was a commie or anything. I actually know for a fact that she's NOT. Her husband is an active duty Marine and deployed to Afghanistan right now. The issue most likely is that she is AFRAID to address the issue because of the pressue that the school district is putting on them. And I told that to my daughter too....but that doesnt change the fact that it was an easy question and is was on topic. The teacher SHOULD have answered it, IMO.

ChuckBooty
06-28-2010, 11:16 AM
My kid is about to start 7th grade, at her elementary school the kids aren't allowed to say "gun"....

One day I hope she does a paper or a project where she can use this photo of my *guns*....... ;)


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v317/ZRX61/ZRXGarage/3-28-10006.jpg

Just this past week she got a fairly comprehensive airbrush kit to play with & picked it up right away, so it's only a matter of time before she progresses to my *high caliber* guns ...

Dude...if you EVER need a canvas to practice on. I've got a real nice left arm that is half-empty! ;)

=Mike=
06-28-2010, 11:19 AM
Well, this has been a good read, thanks Booty.:D

Edge
06-28-2010, 11:58 AM
i give up.

Good, because you're just being argumentative and inflammatory. Ironically, what you are accusing the op of.

I think it is our duty as parents to teach our children alternative views of what they are taught in school, BECAUSE of the liberal bias that has come to pervade the teachings in our public schools systems.

If our education system remained politically neutral, it wouldn't be such an issue.

Peaceful John
06-28-2010, 12:59 PM
...it feels good to be right in my daughters eyes. That way she'll listen to me NEXT time we have this type of discussion.

Enjoy it while you can, Chuck. This sort of thing has a short half-life with daughters!

DTOM CA!
06-28-2010, 1:04 PM
My wife is a 2nd grade teacher in O.C. and is a supporter of the 2A although she does not an avid gun person. She would not have answered the 2A question because it is not P.C. to talk about guns at her school. It could easily cost her job with a misinterpreted answer. All it would take is for another kid to overhear the conversation as "My Teacher says we are allowed to have guns". Kids in the 2nd and 3rd grade don't always get exactly what the Teacher means and that could ruin a career. My Wife would also assume that the child's parents were anti gun and would not want the wrong understanding to get back to them. Call it CYA but it is not worth losing a 22 + year career over. That still does not make it right.
As a parent all my kids have seen and know the Eddie the Eagle video and I have told them about the Second Amendment. I have also told them not to talk about, draw or do anything else about guns while at school. Most schools have a zero tolerance policy on guns.
Trust me there are a lot more "out in the open" things going on at our public schools I could tell you about. My oldest Son had to sit through "An inconvenient truth" in High School last week with no opposing side. We are putting our 8th grade Son into private school for some of these reasons.

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 1:27 PM
Good, because you're just being argumentative and inflammatory. Ironically, what you are accusing the op of.

There's plenty I would like to say if I was just being argumentative and inflammatory....



I think it is our duty as parents to teach our children alternative views of what they are taught in school
Agreed, and where did I disagree with that?


BECAUSE of the liberal bias that has come to pervade the teachings in our public schools systems.


I think saying BECAUSE of is short sighted. There's plenty we should be teaching our kids outside of school simply because short of 1-on-1 private tutoring, there is absolutely no way to make sure kids learn everything we want them to learn. Forget bias - school just can't possibly teach kids everything they need to know.



If our education system remained politically neutral, it wouldn't be such an issue.
The irony here is astounding.
The education system is not politically neutral, so we must send our kids into school with politically charged agendas to create "balance".

Again - if you have a problem with what's being taught, write a letter, pick up the phone, go down the school. Take it up with the powers that be. Don't put your kids in the middle of your personal politics. This is especially bad when you consider that in the grand scheme of things - it has had little effect. Did you change anything at the school? Did you make your opinions known to anyone in power to change it?

If you feel that strongly about it - do something about it.
Like it or not - these are complicated issues. Complicated enough that a lot of very very smart adults can't even 100% navigate the minefield of what's going on today. Yet you expect to thrust a third grader into a proxy debate between a parent and a teacher on the subject with no unintended consequences..

again - keep up the "good work". You've achieved absolutely nothing.

Mikeb
06-28-2010, 2:53 PM
Dude...if you EVER need a canvas to practice on. I've got a real nice left arm that is half-empty! ;)

UHH those are airless paint guns. They can shoot paint right though your arm.
take care
Mike

Merc1138
06-28-2010, 3:02 PM
Right...and I never said that the teacher was a commie or anything. I actually know for a fact that she's NOT. Her husband is an active duty Marine and deployed to Afghanistan right now. The issue most likely is that she is AFRAID to address the issue because of the pressue that the school district is putting on them. And I told that to my daughter too....but that doesnt change the fact that it was an easy question and is was on topic. The teacher SHOULD have answered it, IMO.

I still honestly wouldn't consider it on topic. The truth is, for your daughter in the 3rd grade to be questioning lessons on the constitution and it's amendments is definitely not typical of 3rd graders. That's great, get her some more advanced learning materials for home(as a student stuck in the GATE program when I was in school myself... forget that nonsense, but that's a debate all on it's own, and seriously one of the biggest mistakes I ever dealt with in school. If you want I can shoot you a brief PM regarding why). If the teacher wanted to discuss the 1st, and her lesson plan was for the 1st, that's what I would expect her to discuss. No, your daughter is not "normal"(not saying that as a bad thing), and I can see how 3rd graders could get confused discussing the entire bill of rights all at once.

What I'd do if I were you, is simply contact the teacher stating that you're curious about her future lesson plans regarding the rest of the amendments and how they would fit into the studies of the children in her classroom. If she says she won't cover them, ask why. Don't demand that she cover them all simultaneously. Remember, your daughter still has many years of school ahead to learn all of this in the classroom, and obviously has a parent that cares enough and is willing to help in her studies outside of the state mandated schoolroom.

joedogboy
06-28-2010, 3:18 PM
Looks like the OP did a good job of taking advantage of a teachable moment created by the classroom teacher's assignment. It's too bad that the classroom teacher didn't feel comfortable rolling with that teachable moment in class.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-teachable-moment.htm

=Mike=
06-28-2010, 3:29 PM
again - keep up the "good work". You've achieved absolutely nothing.


I knew you didn't give up, just had to regroup.
What liberal, leftist, obama lovin website, sent you here to rattle the nest?

juicemansam
06-28-2010, 3:32 PM
1) NEVER hit first but ALWAYS hit back
2) ALWAYS follow the rules but ALWAYS question authority


My parents always told my brothers and I to stand up for ourselves if we were in the right, even against them.

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 3:33 PM
I knew you didn't give up, just had to regroup.
What liberal, leftist, obama lovin website, sent you here to rattle the nest?

yep - you got me :rolleyes:

dadoody
06-28-2010, 3:40 PM
A little back story: The end of the year my daughter's 3rd grade class were all made to memorize and recite the 1st Amendment.
As my daughter was approaching her D-Day she asked me to help her memorize it. She was, thus far, just trying to do it by memory. That is to say, she had NO IDEA what she was actually saying or what it meant. This gave me a great chance to go, line by line, and explain what each statement actually MEANT (she rolled her eyes as I started because she knows how I am with this stuff....lol). It worked out GREAT and it gave me a chance (as I do sometimes) to talk to her about the Constitution and to also talk to her about the reality of our education system. I walk a fine line when I do that because I don't want to undermine her teachers authority. Mostly I do it by asking her opinion on things....which is what happened here.

I told her what the SECOND amendment was, read it to her, and told her what it meant. Then I told her that a lot of teachers won't actually teach the second amendment because they personally don't like guns. And I asked her what she thought about that. Being that she's the smartest 3rd Grader on the planet, she said (paraphrasing) that it was sneaky for a teacher to only present one side of the issue because, without BOTH sides, kids won't be able to make up their own minds.

So I gave her some homework (school...homework...uh...hm) anyways....I told her that the next time the class is talking about the 1st amendment, ask her teach what the SECOND amendment is. I gave her strict instructions NOT to challenge her teacher or to start some kind of debate (keep in mind...she's in 3rd grade here) but to just ask the question and tell me what she says (keeping in mind the conversation that we just had about it). So the next day, she asks her teacher. To which the teacher replied, "I don't know...we'll have to look it up sometime.". And changed the subject!

While I'm obviously disappointed in the teachers answer...it feels good to be right in my daughters eyes. That way she'll listen to me NEXT time we have this type of discussion.

The 1st amendment is the only one I can remember them really going over. The rest of them might as well be invisible to most of these teachers.

=Mike=
06-28-2010, 3:45 PM
yep - you got me :rolleyes:

So then we're done here, OP has his s**t together, and sinixstar was sent here by acorn.

Now let scroll down and go buy something and let this s**t die.

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 3:53 PM
So then we're done here, OP has his s**t together, and sinixstar was sent here by acorn.

Now let scroll down and go buy something and let this s**t die.

Wanna buy a bridge? How's about some ocean front property?

=Mike=
06-28-2010, 4:10 PM
Wanna buy a bridge? How's about some ocean front property?

Sry, no can do, but I hear ("the non marxist, non constitution braking") obama is in the market.

AggregatVier
06-28-2010, 8:25 PM
OK, since after all these pages Sinixstar has avoided answering direct questions it must be he's young, has no kids of his own, and is a teacher. And he likes the position of one-man-right-with-God as he struggles to enlighten the unwashed masses lapping at his castle.

And he will never admit to being wrong. Must have gone to USC.

TJMOICBW

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 8:48 PM
OK, since after all these pages Sinixstar has avoided answering direct questions it must be he's young, has no kids of his own, and is a teacher. And he likes the position of one-man-right-with-God as he struggles to enlighten the unwashed masses lapping at his castle.

And he will never admit to being wrong. Must have gone to USC.

TJMOICBW


I didn't bother answering those questions because their irrelevant.
"Question the source" isn't really a valid form of debate...

For the record - you're right. I'm 30 (young) and don't have (nor want) kids.

Also for the record - I've been that kid with shall we say "strong willed" parents who send their kids to school with "assignments". Let me tell you - it is not a comfortable or enlightening place to be. Kids will do a lot of things to avoid letting their parents down - but they don't always enjoy it. If you think you're doing your kids favors with this crap - think again.

ChuckBooty
06-28-2010, 10:08 PM
I didn't bother answering those questions because their irrelevant.
"Question the source" isn't really a valid form of debate...

For the record - you're right. I'm 30 (young) and don't have (nor want) kids.

Also for the record - I've been that kid with shall we say "strong willed" parents who send their kids to school with "assignments". Let me tell you - it is not a comfortable or enlightening place to be. Kids will do a lot of things to avoid letting their parents down - but they don't always enjoy it. If you think you're doing your kids favors with this crap - think again.

Look man...I didn't do anything here that would have caused confrontation. My daughter simply asked a question. She did it at a time that it seemed like a natural question. And she did not question the answer. It was solely for her benefit and her enlightenment. Maybe your dad send you to school to debate and cause trouble...but that's YOUR dad. Not my kids dad. This whole time you've been ignoring key elements of my description of the events because you can't (or don't want to) get over what your parents did to you.

And for the record....i'm sorry you went through that. And I'll keep that in mind next time I'm "walking the tight rope" and challenging my kids to consider more than the criteria set forth by the CA DOE.

ChuckBooty
06-28-2010, 10:10 PM
Oh...and if you ARE a teacher than I completely understand why this would upset you. The teacher still THINKS that she has 100% credibility with my kid and she does not. Thats got to be uncomfortable for you (if you ARE a teacher) because it forces you to face the possibility that there just MIGHT be one or two of YOUR students who have come to the same realization....that adults, yes..even teachers, are fallible.

Flat Broke
06-28-2010, 11:14 PM
I didn't bother answering those questions because their irrelevant.
"Question the source" isn't really a valid form of debate...

For the record - you're right. I'm 30 (young) and don't have (nor want) kids.

I'm just going to go out on a limb and hope he isn't a teacher because parents probably wouldn't be too stoked about their kids having a tough time understanding why they're struggling with english ;)

And Sinixstar, I'm just busting your balls and trying to lighten this up a little, so don't sweat it.

Chris

joedogboy
06-29-2010, 7:19 AM
Oh...and if you ARE a teacher than I completely understand why this would upset you. The teacher still THINKS that she has 100% credibility with my kid and she does not. Thats got to be uncomfortable for you (if you ARE a teacher) because it forces you to face the possibility that there just MIGHT be one or two of YOUR students who have come to the same realization....that adults, yes..even teachers, are fallible.

I am a teacher and I think it's great. If you had her being argumentative and challenging the classroom teacher, that could be a problem, but you just had her ask a question and then let it go. Real teachers like it when kids ask questions - especially when they are related to the topic (i.e. the Bill of Rights) and expand the knowledge base of the class (adding 2A knowledge to 1A knowledge). The "single issue" child starts to get on the nerves of both the teacher and the class - such as the student who tries to link everything to "racism", "evil capitalists", or slavery, several times each day - but a student who asks an occasional "issue" question should be welcomed.
One of the purposes of public education IS indoctrination - we are supposed to be helping to create citizens who can read, think critically, and make decisions for themselves based on their knowledge and values. These are critical elements of a successful "democracy" (representative democracy or republic, in our case). Students need to be trained to think beyond the assignment/textbook, to ask follow on questions, to think about cause & effect relationships, and to understand the history of our nation and the evolution of our laws.
Classroom teachers can't do all of this on their own - because there are too many special interest groups that insist that the classroom be the forum in which their own ideology is taught. It is important that parents ensure that their children learn important elements of citizenship from their families - at home, at church/synagogue/temple/mosque/sacred grove/(wherever followers of your belief system gather), in organizations such as the Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts, and in whatever other ways that you, as a parent, feel will help your child to become a productive citizen with a full range of life options.
If your child needs a graphic demonstration of the limits of the public school, that's fine - and you engineered it well. This will allow you to keep a balance in her education, between what they can teach her at school, and what you can teach her outside of school.

Sinixstar
06-29-2010, 7:40 AM
This whole time you've been ignoring key elements of my description of the events because you can't (or don't want to) get over what your parents did to you.

I'm not ignoring anything. I just don't find your rationalization acceptable. If you have such a problem with how your kid is being taught, if you have such a mis-trust of the system and the teachers - either your kid needs to come out of that school, or at the very least you need to make your concerns heard with the school. If it's not such an issue that you take it seriously enough to at least address with the school, how on earth can you say it's so serious that you need to plant a seed of mistrust in your kid's head at that age? that's a fairly simple question, and nothing in your rationalizations or "description of events" really explains that.

Oh...and if you ARE a teacher than I completely understand why this would upset you. The teacher still THINKS that she has 100% credibility with my kid and she does not. Thats got to be uncomfortable for you (if you ARE a teacher) because it forces you to face the possibility that there just MIGHT be one or two of YOUR students who have come to the same realization....that adults, yes..even teachers, are fallible.

Okay - but again the question goes back to - why undermine the teacher's credibility. What did she do that is so horrible that she should not be trusted now? Did she intentionally lie to you or your daughter?

Barabas
06-29-2010, 7:43 AM
Sinixstar, when did teaching children critical thinking skills become abhorrent to you?

Sinixstar
06-29-2010, 7:50 AM
Sinixstar, when did teaching children critical thinking skills become abhorrent to you?

It hasn't.

dantodd
06-29-2010, 7:52 AM
Can't we all get along

-- Rodney King

Decoligny
06-29-2010, 8:41 AM
Dude...if you EVER need a canvas to practice on. I've got a real nice left arm that is half-empty! ;)

Dude, why would you want someone to spraypaint your left arm?

If you want a tattoo, then you need this type of gun.

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/tattoo-2.jpg


This, however, is a paint spray gun, very similar to the three shown previously.
http://www.allproducts.com/tool/gunbest/paint_spray_gun-l.jpg