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View Full Version : Interstate intrafamilial non-roster handgun xfers in person


Ike Arumba
06-26-2010, 10:18 AM
My Utah-resident son came for a visit, and brought his non-rostered pistol to transfer to me. We went to Shooter's Paradise in Yuba City to do the transfer. The owner first said all we needed was the California DOJ form, but I managed to convince him that I was convinced that we needed to go through an FFL, to satisfy the Feds. Then he said he couldn't do it because the gun was not on the CA roster. I went away, and came back this morning with a printout of Bill Wiese's message "ATTN FFLs: Rostering doesn't apply to interfamilt xfers from outside CA" at http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=137527 . After reading it, he said he still couldn't do it, because my son didn't ship it to him via Fedex. I asked, "What difference does it make, whether he ships it to you or brings it in himself?" "My license," he answered, explaining that at least with Fedex, he would have a record to show BATFEXYZ. He further claimed that it was illegal for my son to transport his own gun across state lines with intent to transfer. He wanted my son to take the gun back home and ship it to him. I told him I guess we'll have to do that, but we'll use another FFL.

So what's the definitive rule here? Is there an unambiguous statement on this site covering interstate intrafamilial in-person transfers of off-roster handguns, and the detailed procedure the FFL needs to follow to accomplish it?

dantodd
06-26-2010, 10:22 AM
I believe that it is illegal per 18 USC 992 for anyone to transport a firearm interstate specifically to transfer that weapon.

johnthomas
06-26-2010, 10:51 AM
The only thing I could find on this on the ca doj website is in the frequently asked question section listed on the left side of the page.
It says your child can give you a gun if you are not prohibited to own one in California and the gun is legal in this state. If it were me, I would call doj and tell them my son is coming to California from another state in a couple of weeks and wants to give me a non-rostered handgun. What is the legal way of doing this?
I would not say that he is here and personally imported a non-rostered handgun already. On the surface, it already looks like he cannot bring a non-rostered handgun into California.
I cannot find regulation to your exact question, hold tight this weekend and if don't get an answer, think about calling DOJ.
Whatever you decide to do, get a law code and read it yourself.

hoffmang
06-26-2010, 10:58 AM
I believe that it is illegal per 18 USC 992 for anyone to transport a firearm interstate specifically to transfer that weapon.

I don't think that's correct. As long as he was intending to follow the laws in both his state of residence and the state of residence of the transferee (which in person intrafamily transfer was what he wanted to do) he's not violating Federal law.

-Gene

Librarian
06-26-2010, 11:52 AM
The only thing I could find on this on the ca doj website is in the frequently asked question section listed on the left side of the page.
It says your child can give you a gun if you are not prohibited to own one in California and the gun is legal in this state. If it were me, I would call doj and tell them my son is coming to California from another state in a couple of weeks and wants to give me a non-rostered handgun. What is the legal way of doing this?

Geez, no! They seem always to forget about interstate transfer requiring the FFL. Remember that calling DOJ doesn't get you to a policy-maker, usually.

Nothing in FedLaw says you cannot transport a gun across state lines for purposes of transfer; what it does say is, as Gene points out, that that transfer must follow the laws in the states of residence of both transferor and transferee (and Federal Law, in using the FFL and all that is required of FFLs).

See the wiki article (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Transferring_firearms_Interstate).

As to why that FFL thinks he needs something shipped to him FedEx, I dunno; if that's what he needs to run his business, that's what he's going to do, but I sure don't see any reason to require that.

Munk
06-26-2010, 12:56 PM
As to why that FFL thinks he needs something shipped to him FedEx, I dunno; if that's what he needs to run his business, that's what he's going to do, but I sure don't see any reason to require that.


It's because it's an "interstate" intrafamilial transfer. The business owner is in major CYA mode because of all the laws he has to juggle here. By shipping it via Fedex (USPS is a no-go for guns) he has "proof" that the gun was overnighted to him for purposes of a legal transfer. He's worried that without the proof, the DOJ could assume that the man illegally purchased the gun in a cash-and-carry transaction somewhere like the pheonix gun show, and is attempting to "legitimize" his ownership of it by using his son as an intermediary. All of which is completely retarded since the one doing the transfer is there... IN PERSON, and the firearm isn't illegal for either to possess (i assume).

(can't keep myself from doing "air quotes" when nonsense like this comes up, hah).


All in all, if he jumps through the hoops, pays shipping/transfer/dros, he'll be out around 150-250 (depends on the FFL's transfer fees).

gotsig
06-26-2010, 1:18 PM
I too was under the impression that the gun must be shipped to a Cal. FFL. With the gun being in Cal. already, I don't think an FFL is required, just send $19 & the correct form to DOJ. If I am wrong I'm sure somebody will correct me.

dantodd
06-26-2010, 1:29 PM
I don't think that's correct. As long as he was intending to follow the laws in both his state of residence and the state of residence of the transferee (which in person intrafamily transfer was what he wanted to do) he's not violating Federal law.

-Gene

I think it was simply a misunderstanding of 922(a)(1)(A) to think that bringing it in for the purpose of transferring it would be considered "engaging in the business of" especially when conflated with the wording of 922(a)(3). Mea culpa. Good to know too. Now I have an even better reason to try and get my mom to come out for a visit.

Librarian
06-26-2010, 2:30 PM
I too was under the impression that the gun must be shipped to a Cal. FFL. With the gun being in Cal. already, I don't think an FFL is required, just send $19 & the correct form to DOJ. If I am wrong I'm sure somebody will correct me.

Correction now present - read the first part at the Wiki link I posted: Federal Law

Interstate transfer has almost nothing to do with where, geographically, a particular gun may be, and everything to do with the respective states of residence of the buyer and seller. If the buyer and seller live in different states, a gun transaction will be an interstate transfer. The Feds do not have the 'intrafamilial' concept - that's uniquely (AFAIK) a California thing.

redneckshootist
06-26-2010, 8:06 PM
My Utah-resident son came for a visit, and brought his non-rostered pistol to transfer to me. We went to Shooter's Paradise in Yuba City to do the transfer. The owner first said all we needed was the California DOJ form, but I managed to convince him that I was convinced that we needed to go through an FFL, to satisfy the Feds. Then he said he couldn't do it because the gun was not on the CA roster. I went away, and came back this morning with a printout of Bill Wiese's message "ATTN FFLs: Rostering doesn't apply to interfamilt xfers from outside CA" at http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=137527 . After reading it, he said he still couldn't do it, because my son didn't ship it to him via Fedex. I asked, "What difference does it make, whether he ships it to you or brings it in himself?" "My license," he answered, explaining that at least with Fedex, he would have a record to show BATFEXYZ. He further claimed that it was illegal for my son to transport his own gun across state lines with intent to transfer. He wanted my son to take the gun back home and ship it to him. I told him I guess we'll have to do that, but we'll use another FFL.

So what's the definitive rule here? Is there an unambiguous statement on this site covering interstate intrafamilial in-person transfers of off-roster handguns, and the detailed procedure the FFL needs to follow to accomplish it?

my shop has done a few intrafamilar transfers just like this. The yuba city ffl didnt know what he was talking about. That dont surprise me though that ffl passes on a lot of fud. I get to hear pretty much all of it.

ZenMasta
06-26-2010, 8:22 PM
Regarding the roster issue. The guy is mistaken. The roster is irrelevant for hand gun transfers via private party... just read the california handgun safety guide page 35
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/hscsg.pdf

ke6guj
06-26-2010, 9:54 PM
Regarding the roster issue. The guy is mistaken. The roster is irrelevant for hand gun transfers via private party... just read the california handgun safety guide page 35
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/hscsg.pdfright, but CADOJ does not consider a transfer from an out-of-state resident to a CA-resident to be a "private party transfer" and the roster-exemption does not apply. The DROS system will not allow the FFL to enter an out-of-state address for the seller in the PPT software (might be an underground regulation that will need to be looked into).

Ike Arumba
06-26-2010, 10:41 PM
Thanks for the responses. It sounds like the correct way for the FFL to handle it is as Bill wrote in the other thread referring to Fedex/Ups delivery:

Thus, your dad/grandad/kid (lineal only) in Nebraska can ship the non-Rostered nonexempt handgun to your local CA FFL. The gun is DROSed+4473'd like a normal purchase - but on the DROS screen an exempt notation should be added: "12078PC intrafamily transfer".

except that only the second sentence applies because the gun was delivered in person. Is that right? Should the location for the exempt notation be obvious to the FFL? This fellow didn't seem to know how such a notation might be entered.

Well, this opportunity is lost. The family reunion is over, and my son has to take the gun back to Utah and ship it. I won't be bothering Shooter's Paradise with my business ever again.

Malthusian
06-28-2010, 4:51 AM
Ike Arumba;4521839]Thanks for the responses. It sounds like the correct way for the FFL to handle it is as Bill wrote in the other thread referring to Fedex/Ups delivery:

Also in Bill's thread was reference to a gift letter with the giver listing his relationship to the receiver. Model number etc for the FFL to save in his records along with the transfer information

I have been round and round with this issue with 3 local FFL's. They all insisted they cannot accept and transfer a firearm to me that is non roster from out of State from my father. All 3 said to simply bring the gun and fill out the DOJ form. A violation of Federal law. Fortunately for me I found the handgun I was looking for from a local PPT.

I know of a friend who brought over a gun from his Dad that was 20 years old. To the DOJ it would appear as a random voluntary registration. Hid dad had transferred most of the handguns to him 20 years ago before he moved out of State. The difference between the guns transferred to him 20 years ago and the recently added out of State gun is nil. He has never registered the guns his Dad gave him, as he is not required to. I concur that bringing over the gun across State lines is a violation of Federal law. Having already aquired the majoirty of his Dad's handguns before he left the State. I do know see how any one could ever prove any wrong doing.