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View Full Version : Do 1911's really gum up easily?


ruchik
06-26-2010, 9:27 AM
I've heard quite a few conflicting stories on this. Some people say that a well built 1911 is essentially a Glock; it can run forever, can run whatever you put through it, etc. Certainly, some reports of quality 1911's like SA's offerings seem to indicate they can run through basically any type of ammo with few or no malfunctions. Then there's the advice of only feeding a 1911 premium ammo, the slide starts to gum up around 100-200 rounds of continuous firing, etc. So I'd to hear from the folks at Calguns: is a quality 1911, such as the ones put out by Kimber, SA, Wilson Combat, etc. the equivalent of a Honda that requires not too much maintenance and care, or a Ferrari which is a high performance machine that requires premium fuel and almost religious maintenance?

sevensix2x51
06-26-2010, 9:31 AM
my kimber needs very little maintenance, and eats anything i feed it. i guess you could say its like a glock, but with a nice trigger. and its way cooler.

AJAX22
06-26-2010, 9:40 AM
Only fake 1911s that are not made to original browning specs

it's the 'match' super spiffy crap that screws up...... My gi colt had never screwed up

NoahH
06-26-2010, 10:01 AM
I've had my Kimber pro carry II for about four years now, haven't changed a thing and it shoots whatever I feed it.

Miltiades
06-26-2010, 10:12 AM
Is a quality 1911, such as the ones put out by Kimber, SA, Wilson Combat, etc. the equivalent of a Honda that requires not too much maintenance and care, or a Ferrari which is a high performance machine that requires premium fuel and almost religious maintenance?

I've had a dozen 1911s by Colt and Kimber over 20 years, and haven't had any problems with "gumming up". I always field strip and clean them after shooting, however, so they never have a buildup of residue on them. And before shooting I put a drop of oil on the slide rails so they are lubricated during use. I use name brand factory ammo - no reloads or Russian stuff. If you treat the 1911 like any piece of machinery you value, it will generally run quite well.

Rekrab
06-26-2010, 10:14 AM
I've gone 500 rounds of dirty ammo before cleaning mine once. Worked fine, it was so black on the inside I couldn't see the polished feed ramp.

Note though, I'm shooting a Rock with loose tolerances. You wouldn't want to do this with some high-end match 1911.

OneSevenDeuce
06-26-2010, 10:23 AM
I have an SA GI and I put about 400 rounds through it in one day. Not a single issue except for one FTF when I loaded a mag with some Winchester JHP. No "gumming" issues at all other than normal fouling you would see on any auto pistol.

CSACANNONEER
06-26-2010, 10:28 AM
I've never pushed my Kimbers past 2500 of hard cast lead bullets without cleaning them. Of course a Glock would have probably blown up after 500 rounds of lead without cleaning. So, I would never consider a 1911 to be "essentially a Glock". It would be an insult to 1911s everwhere.

GSG222
06-26-2010, 1:40 PM
If you want to shoot lead, a 1911 definitely performs better than a Glock - the latter is not designed to shoot lead. The beauty with 1911 is that they have their own personality. A match gun, for example, is so tightly fitted that the slide must be kept super clean and well lubricated in order to function. That's why you get the superb accuracy. On the other hand, a 1911 fitted for the battle field is often so loose that "it rattles". It won't be very accurate, but is super reliable. You can dip it in the mud and fire it without a problem. Most people would want to stay in the middle, with a 1911 that is reasonably accurate and reliable. And like the gun itself, it's an art to keep the right balance.

Malthusian
06-26-2010, 2:02 PM
I have an old Colt Series 70. I had a Bar Sto barrel custom fitted, a trigger job, match trigger
and a custom fitted bushing. I would say I am middle of the road. It shoots better then I can.

Legasat
06-26-2010, 2:07 PM
No problems with my Dan Wesson PM-7 so far (1100 rnds of various ammo).

nn3453
06-26-2010, 2:08 PM
I've never pushed my Kimbers past 2500 of hard cast lead bullets without cleaning them. Of course a Glock would have probably blown up after 500 rounds of lead without cleaning. So, I would never consider a 1911 to be "essentially a Glock". It would be an insult to 1911s everwhere.

:rolleyes:

tuna quesadilla
06-26-2010, 2:25 PM
I've heard quite a few conflicting stories on this. Some people say that a well built 1911 is essentially a Glock;

That's a horrible example. Sure, a good 1911 will feed FMJ ammo flawlessly, and some of them will even feed JHP. But they lack the features that make the Glock the excellent pistol that it is. A 1911 is an enthusiast's toy, not a serious combat pistol. 50 years ago it may have been the best that the world had to offer, but this is the year 2010 and there is newer, better technology. Embrace it.

7x57
06-26-2010, 2:28 PM
I did a rather casual experiment where I just quit cleaning my Kimber TLE II for a while to see what would happen. I think I started seeing feed issues after maybe 500-1000 rounds (I said it was casual). I don't think that's bad, but something to GI tolerances should be much more reliable.

So are any of the production 1911s as reliable as the GI issue pistols? I don't know how SA's imitation compares.

7x57

sevensix2x51
06-26-2010, 2:29 PM
That's a horrible example. Sure, a good 1911 will feed FMJ ammo flawlessly, and some of them will even feed JHP. But they lack the features that make the Glock the excellent pistol that it is. A 1911 is an enthusiast's toy, not a serious combat pistol. 50 years ago it may have been the best that the world had to offer, but this is the year 2010 and there is newer, better technology. Embrace it.

:eek::popcorn:

CSACANNONEER
06-26-2010, 3:01 PM
That's a horrible example. Sure, a good 1911 will feed FMJ ammo flawlessly, and some of them will even feed JHP. But they lack the features that make the Glock the excellent pistol that it is. A 1911 is an enthusiast's toy, not a serious combat pistol. 50 years ago it may have been the best that the world had to offer, but this is the year 2010 and there is newer, better technology. Embrace it.

All our special forces teams are using outdated guns? They can choose to carry whatever they want. So, why do so many of them carry 1911s? Why did LAPD SWAT go back to 1911s a few years ago? What do you know that these professionals, who's lives depend on their choice of guns, don't?

Greg-Dawg
06-26-2010, 3:09 PM
NEVER put Glock and 1911 in the same sentence. They are significantly different. As for dirt and grim, it depends on the ammo and number of rounds out of it.

marcus_bervus
06-26-2010, 3:23 PM
sorry to disappoint you, but a GLOCK is not a 1911!!! that is your first mistake!

tuna quesadilla
06-26-2010, 4:04 PM
All our special forces teams are using outdated guns? They can choose to carry whatever they want. So, why do so many of them carry 1911s? Why did LAPD SWAT go back to 1911s a few years ago? What do you know that these professionals, who's lives depend on their choice of guns, don't?

What's your point? As long as they can put forth the training to overcome the 1911's drawbacks (which they can, because that's what their CAREER revolves around), then why shouldn't they use the pistol they want to use? I never said the 1911 was a bad design, it's just horribly outdated and there are other pistols that are much more modern and user-friendly. Also note that the military (with a few clever exceptions) is limited to standard ball ammunition. One of the biggest reasons for re-adopting the 1911 is that they NEED the larger .45 caliber slug over the standard issue M9 w/ M882 ammo, because they cannot use the hollowpoints that make smaller calibers such as 9mm so much more effective. And with that, I'm done in this thread -- I don't much care for 1911 zealots. :rolleyes:

C.W.M.V.
06-26-2010, 4:11 PM
That's a horrible example. Sure, a good 1911 will feed FMJ ammo flawlessly, and some of them will even feed JHP. But they lack the features that make the Glock the excellent pistol that it is. A 1911 is an enthusiast's toy, not a serious combat pistol. 50 years ago it may have been the best that the world had to offer, but this is the year 2010 and there is newer, better technology. Embrace it.

Whoa there guy! First off I have to ask how much "serious" combat time do you have under your belt? No trying to say you don't have any, because I don't know, but you shouldn't talk about it if you've never been. If this is the opinion you have formed while under fire then cool, but too many people go throwing around the word "combat" to justify their arguments when the closest they have come is Call of Duty. If you've been I'm sure you'll understand what I mean.

That being said I spent some time with the special operations community while deployed. My first tour we were used by an S.F. group for security work. I want to say 5th group but I cant remember, the only time we saw or interacted with them was on mission. We would act as outer cordon when they went in to hit a target. Later when we went to "assist" (save the asses of :)) the Marine Corps in Fallujah we were attached to a "recon" unit supporting the first marines. I'm pretty sure they were force recon, as they had the look and swagger and did whatever they wanted but I never heard them call themselves Force Recon. During my second tour we did a few HVT raids with SF, they used us to insert, cordon, and withdraw their teams because they liked our Strykers.

I said that to say this-none of them carried glocks. Most carried some form of 1911. More than a few were colt 70 series. These guys get to pick their own weapons, and a lot of them went with 1911 type pistols. That told me alot. We were all very jealous because they had pistols that actually worked, while our 92f's were about as useful as a brick. The IP's carried glocks, not because they were good but because they were cheap. They didn't like sand very much.

Ditto what others have said-1911 in its original form is the ultimate combat pistol. Its like the AK of pistols, sturdy, reliable and reasonably accurate. Completely different animal from a glock. Id trust my life to my "budget" RIA officers model or my Colt 70 series.

What's your point? As long as they can put forth the training to overcome the 1911's drawbacks (which they can, because that's what their CAREER revolves around), then why shouldn't they use the pistol they want to use? I never said the 1911 was a bad design, it's just horribly outdated and there are other pistols that are much more modern and user-friendly. Also note that the military (with a few clever exceptions) is limited to standard ball ammunition. One of the biggest reasons for re-adopting the 1911 is that they NEED the larger .45 caliber slug over the standard issue M9 w/ M882 ammo, because they cannot use the hollowpoints that make smaller calibers such as 9mm so much more effective.

So, what your saying is that without special ammo the small caliber (9mm) is ineffective. I agree! 45 ACP all the way. As far as the 1911's "drawbacks", what are those?
EDIT(again): Horribly outdated? Would you call the B52 horribly outdated? Still does the job pretty well. When it comes down to it that "outdated design has been through the ringer more times than any glock, and its been refined over the course of nearly 100 years. I always preferd a weapon that always went bang to the new super cool high speed stuff.

kellito
06-26-2010, 5:02 PM
He doesn't care for 1911 guys, he is much more suited to glocktalk from the sounds of things, nothing he said is worth talking about, and he's not in this thread anymore. Let's stop adressing his opinions. Let's just say that all 1911's are different, and most are reliable and accurate pistols.


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Bentot
06-26-2010, 5:20 PM
Serious combat operators and bullseye shooters embrace the 1911. One reason Glock made it into law enforcement and limited military application is their aggressive marketing by offering low prices.

GSG222
06-26-2010, 5:36 PM
Let's not start another 1911-Glock war, as there is no winner. I think most would agree that they're as DIFFERENT as apples and oranges. So the best solution is to eat them all! I personally love both my 1911 and Glock, albeit for very different reasons.

Back to OP's question - yes it's not surprising to hear the conflicting opinions regarding 1911. It lies in the nature of 1911 - a beautifully designed, versatile handgun that can be highly accurate (low tolerance) or highly reliable (high tolerance). Most modern 1911s, such as Kimber and Wison Combat, intentionally sacrifice some reliability for increased accuracy. As a result, they do require reasonable maintainence. It's important to know what you truly need and choose the right 1911 that fits your profile and style, instead of just choosing a 1911. Like the Glock, it's a beautiful thing to own.

odysseus
06-26-2010, 5:48 PM
Oh boy, this topic can spread around like a grass fire.

Not sure on the aspects of "gum up" easily, but as said a quality 1911 built on GI tolerances should fire very well for some time before needing cleaning because of FTFs or FTEs. However a LOT of 1911s around are built to "match" tolerances, or manufacturer specs and can be pretty "tight".

A glock is a different animal completely, like many modern service weapons. This is an apple and oranges conversation really. Not something to really go deep on trying to compare. If FTFs or FTEs are very important to you and a fire always and feed anything is the top priority, buy with that in mind then.

leelaw
06-26-2010, 5:54 PM
The answer is: It depends.

For an M1911 tolerance 1911, no, it will not gum up faster than most other pistol platforms.

For some of the newer ones with hand-fitting, or match tolerances, they tend to be less dirt resistant. I've found with my match tolerance 1911 that I can run about 500-700 "dirty" ball ammo through it in one sitting before it begins to hiccup at all, and a couple drops of oil on the rails clears it up for several more hundred rounds.

I'm a bit anal about cleaning my guns, especially this one which I have assigned as a go-to pistol, so after the range trip it's detail cleaned, so YMMV.

SixtyDashOne
06-26-2010, 5:59 PM
That's a horrible example. Sure, a good 1911 will feed FMJ ammo flawlessly, and some of them will even feed JHP. But they lack the features that make the Glock the excellent pistol that it is. A 1911 is an enthusiast's toy, not a serious combat pistol. 50 years ago it may have been the best that the world had to offer, but this is the year 2010 and there is newer, better technology. Embrace it.


/fanboy

ruchik
06-26-2010, 6:10 PM
Ah sorry guys; never meant to compare a Glock and a 1911 in that way. I was referring to their track records, not features. Thanks for all the info.

CGK60
06-26-2010, 6:34 PM
I had a Ballister Molina that would gum up some after about 100 rds. My cheap firestorm will eat anything and everything and never gum up or jam.

NiteQwill
06-26-2010, 6:41 PM
Track record? The 1911 has a track record of umm... A century.

nagorb
06-26-2010, 6:45 PM
I've put at least 800 rds of mostly tula/wolf through my SA Loaded, only malfunction was with a JHP round. Haven't cleaned it since I first got it, I'm seeing how many I can put through it without cleaning until it starts to malfunction.

GM4spd
06-26-2010, 6:50 PM
Anyone seen any 92 year old Glock's that have been thru a few major
World Wars and still have their ORIGINAL parts? Don't think so.This includes a 92 year old original barrel
that is super clean(not pitted) in an era of corrosive ammo. This one
still works just fine! Pete

http://www.fototime.com/F867581EC4AD6B1/standard.jpg

PingPongBob
06-26-2010, 6:51 PM
I'm done in this thread -- I don't much care for 1911 zealots. :rolleyes:

good boy. now take your marbles to another table you might be able to win with. :rolleyes:

Gem1950
06-26-2010, 7:01 PM
Gumming or no gumming - When the Glock has been superseded by the next superior synthetic pistola there will still be people wishing they had a 1911.

Juice5610
06-26-2010, 7:12 PM
1911 > glock

Thats rigtht I said it! lol

To the OP I'm currently running a little test to see how long my 1911 can go before I need to clean it so far I'm at 350 rounds I will be adding 200 more on monday. My 1911 is a Kimber Warrior with 6,350 rounds through her :43:and only one FTE using federal hydra shock and one FTF using wolf ammo (both failures happened around the 400 round mark)

nn3453
06-26-2010, 7:17 PM
I love my 1911s. Not sure why people are trying to compare the two. It depends on the purpose. Hope this doesn't add fuel to the fire, but I'm terms of reliability, if you must compare, in action shooting, I've seen 1911s ftf or fte a lot more commonly compared to Glocks. Almost every 1911 action shooter I've met has run into a malfunction at least once, myself included.

elSquid
06-26-2010, 7:22 PM
I love to make the statement, "The 1911 pistol is the worlds finest close-quarters combat weapon," in my training program followed with the comment, "and King of feed-way stopages." I have to admit I see more 1911 pistols choke than most other modern designs. A good 1911 is a great thing -- a bad one is like a nagging wife. In the circles I travel, those who use 1911 pistols make sure they work flawlessly. If they don't, they're either fixed or someone else ends up owning it. There are a number of really good 1911s on the market today, but remember, you tend to get what you pay for. A "good cheap" 1911 doesn't seem to really exist.

Ken Hackathorn

-- Michael

Sunday
06-26-2010, 7:29 PM
The 1911 has been through some WWs and a few police actions and is still in use today by many so I would guess it isn't that bad. Nothing wrong with plastic guns in my opinion .

luckystrike
06-26-2010, 7:33 PM
All our special forces teams are using outdated guns? They can choose to carry whatever they want. So, why do so many of them carry 1911s? Why did LAPD SWAT go back to 1911s a few years ago? What do you know that these professionals, who's lives depend on their choice of guns, don't?


because they will be back on a ship, base or station in a matter of a few hours and will have some time to do some cleaning.

if you dont get the chance or time to do a little bit of cleaning, then thats just it.

kellito
06-26-2010, 7:55 PM
It will spend most of it's time in a holster, not much cleaning needed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

nn3453
06-26-2010, 7:56 PM
I love to make the statement, "The 1911 pistol is the worlds finest close-quarters combat weapon," in my training program followed with the comment, "and King of feed-way stopages." I have to admit I see more 1911 pistols choke than most other modern designs. A good 1911 is a great thing -- a bad one is like a nagging wife. In the circles I travel, those who use 1911 pistols make sure they work flawlessly. If they don't, they're either fixed or someone else ends up owning it. There are a number of really good 1911s on the market today, but remember, you tend to get what you pay for. A "good cheap" 1911 doesn't seem to really exist.

Ken Hackathorn

-- Michael
I was talking to Randy Lee a while back and his comment was "a 1911 is a great competition gun if you have a pit crew." :)

ruchik
06-26-2010, 9:34 PM
Hrmmm. I guess a better way of asking what I wanted to know was how long a 1911 could be fired before it really started to gum up and in particular, have failures to return to battery, as that SEEMS (not is, seems) to be a common problem amongst 1911's, regardless of make. From what I understand, the 1911 platform is a little less forgiving of dirtiness in general. Of course, that could just be a blanket statement thats blatantly incorrect, but it is what I have heard.

OneSevenDeuce
06-26-2010, 9:45 PM
Here is the deal. Many 1911s these days are made to very tight tolerances. Thus there is not much room for fouling to get in before the weapon starts having issues. You find this to be the case with a lot of the finely fitted competition models etc. Standard military issued 1911s used to have a relatively large amount of play between the slide and frame. This made it possible to function in a dirty condition, but is less than desirable for many civilian shooters. The 1911 is no more or less prone to failing than any other auto pistol. However so many people make 1911s, and tolerances are so different among manufacturers, that you sometimes have reliability issues with certain makes and models when mated with some people's maintenance habits. Your question is really impossible to answer across the board. It would depend on the make, and model of the 1911, and what ammo was used, the frequency of maintenance, the type of lubrication used etc.

If what you really want to know is, is the 1911 a reliable fire arm? The question is yes, as long as you do your part.

1911Operator
06-26-2010, 9:46 PM
only problems i have is the feed ram getting dirty and rounds not feeding, other then that no problems! just take care of that ramp and your good to go!

Dhena81
06-26-2010, 9:58 PM
The problem here is that the ultimate combat pistol is the Sig P220 or P226 sorry boys had to throw in the hell and back reliability in there.

1911Operator
06-26-2010, 10:07 PM
The problem here is that the ultimate combat pistol is the Sig P220 or P226 sorry boys had to throw in the hell and back reliability in there.

:offtopic:

chuckdc
06-26-2010, 11:35 PM
I have both and like both. i've fired hundreds of rounds in single days with both. I used to do IPSC with a 1911-style pistol, with a couple thousand rounds between cleanings. I shoot in a particularly dusty environment at the ranges I shoot at, and even though there was plenty of dust, dirt and junk, failures were exceedingly rare other than those caused by the occasional dud round, or slide contact with a barricade or other obstacle.
I went through the reserve police academy training with a Glock (mostly because the powers-that-be at the academy were NOT 1911 fans,and there was no point in antagonizing the instructors) I shot 500 rounds in one day, starting with a clean pistol. It would easily have handled more, but we were required to show up with a clean pistol each day.
I'm having a hard time seeing the point of talking about how many rounds you can go without cleaning. How often are you going to be on straight combat ops where you are going to fire your handgun hundreds to thousands of times without the chance to clean it? Who is carrying your crates of magazines into that situation? Seriously. You're more than likely to be using a rifle or carbine or whatever and the handgun is mostly a backup.

I hate to be injecting some sort of reality into the picture here, but come on.

terry4130
06-27-2010, 12:20 AM
I see it as someone saying you can drive you car 25K miles without an oil change on "XXX" oil. Maybe you can, but are you really? Maintanence is a part of this hobby/lifestyle. I'm into desert trucks and more time can be spent on "prep" and tuning than driving.

ruchik
06-27-2010, 12:43 AM
Good points all. So as I understand it, generally I get what I pay for in the 1911 world. Does this mean that the more expensive a 1911 gets, they generally have tighter tolerances? Is there a particular brand/make of 1911 that still has somewhat loose tolerances, apart from C&R 1911's?

Arondos
06-27-2010, 12:49 AM
The most have put through my RIA Tactical in a day is 500 rounds and it was still working fine. It gets cleaned after every range trip so most times 50-100 rounds. I am not going to rely on a dirty weapon. But it is nice to know it will work when it is dirty if I need it to.

Sinixstar
06-27-2010, 1:34 AM
Only fake 1911s that are not made to original browning specs

it's the 'match' super spiffy crap that screws up...... My gi colt had never screwed up


I wouldn't say that.

Generally speaking - a 1911 will gum up and foul under a few conditions.
Most of the time it has to do with somebody who is operating under mis-info that this happens to. Notably, some people have this idea that 1911s need to be absolutely covered in oil, to the point of dripping with the stuff, in order to function properly.

This actually causes more problems then it solves. An excess of oil will in many cases collect dirt and gunk, and turn into a thick mud/grease like substance that will jam everything up. If you shoot outdoors in a dry/dusty environment - this is an even bigger risk.

If a 1911 is maintained properly this is far less of a risk.
I've found it really has very little to do with being a "real" 1911 or not - it has to do with how the gun is being maintained, and by whom.

Sinixstar
06-27-2010, 1:37 AM
I have both and like both. i've fired hundreds of rounds in single days with both. I used to do IPSC with a 1911-style pistol, with a couple thousand rounds between cleanings. I shoot in a particularly dusty environment at the ranges I shoot at, and even though there was plenty of dust, dirt and junk, failures were exceedingly rare other than those caused by the occasional dud round, or slide contact with a barricade or other obstacle.
I went through the reserve police academy training with a Glock (mostly because the powers-that-be at the academy were NOT 1911 fans,and there was no point in antagonizing the instructors) I shot 500 rounds in one day, starting with a clean pistol. It would easily have handled more, but we were required to show up with a clean pistol each day.
I'm having a hard time seeing the point of talking about how many rounds you can go without cleaning. How often are you going to be on straight combat ops where you are going to fire your handgun hundreds to thousands of times without the chance to clean it? Who is carrying your crates of magazines into that situation? Seriously. You're more than likely to be using a rifle or carbine or whatever and the handgun is mostly a backup.

I hate to be injecting some sort of reality into the picture here, but come on.

The X rounds without cleaning speaks more to overall reliability.
If you have a gun that can't go 100 rounds without a failure, do you really want to trust your life to it? Even if it's completely clean when you start - what happens if you drop it in the dirt, and now have to trust it without cleaning. Is that something you really want to rely on? I wouldn't.

The general idea is - if a gun can hold up to the most extreme and adverse conditions reliably - then it can handle the ideal conditions without question.

rorschach
06-27-2010, 1:41 AM
A 1911 is an enthusiast's toy, not a serious combat pistol.

Quoted for the laughter this has brought me on an otherwise dreary day.:p

Rekrab
06-27-2010, 1:44 AM
Good points all. So as I understand it, generally I get what I pay for in the 1911 world. Does this mean that the more expensive a 1911 gets, they generally have tighter tolerances? Is there a particular brand/make of 1911 that still has somewhat loose tolerances, apart from C&R 1911's?

Any GI style 1911 is going to have looser tolerances. Rock Island, Springfield, Colt, etc. All their base models are going to have looser tolerances.

Sinixstar
06-27-2010, 1:47 AM
That's a horrible example. Sure, a good 1911 will feed FMJ ammo flawlessly, and some of them will even feed JHP. But they lack the features that make the Glock the excellent pistol that it is. A 1911 is an enthusiast's toy, not a serious combat pistol. 50 years ago it may have been the best that the world had to offer, but this is the year 2010 and there is newer, better technology. Embrace it.

Not a combat pistol?

I think there's a few people who would disagree with you. I think they're called "Marines"

http://mamboartstoday.com/images/1911_in_Iraq.jpg

And if you notice - that is NOT some shiny new Kimber, Wilson or Nighthawk Custom up there ;)



http://www.usgalco.com/Catalog/Testimonial/katrinaFromIraqCropped.jpg

J20DB
06-27-2010, 1:51 AM
My Colt XSE, RIA GI, and SA Loaded 9mm 1911s are every bit as reliable as my glocks are... with good magazines. It seems that 1911-style guns can be very picky about this. My stock Colt mags make better paperweights than ammo feeding devices, and the mag that came with my RIA isn't much better. With some Wilson Combat or Chip McCormick mags though, they run flawlessly.

1911Operator
06-27-2010, 1:54 AM
Not a combat pistol?

I think there's a few people who would disagree with you. I think they're called "Marines"

http://mamboartstoday.com/images/1911_in_Iraq.jpg

I was in the ARMY and my battalion commander (lt. colonel) had a stainless commander 1911. very nice! he tries to show off to me and my section chief by spinning it in his hand and almost dropped it! hahahaha

rorschach
06-27-2010, 1:58 AM
Why did LAPD SWAT go back to 1911s a few years ago? What do you know that these professionals, who's lives depend on their choice of guns, don't?

LA SWAT has been using 1911's for decades. IIRC, they had been using a hodgepodge mix of mostly WWII vintage 1911's that had been confiscated over the years, rebuilt and modified by the SWAT armorer. One can only assume these were getting pretty tired so the City bought replacements, which Kimber was awarded the contract for.

I recall reading an article about Larry Vickers where he stated that he fills the active duty hi-speed/lo-drag types orders first before any others, and that he's built duty pistols for many SF and Delta guys.

Sinixstar
06-27-2010, 2:05 AM
My Colt XSE, RIA GI, and SA Loaded 9mm 1911s are every bit as reliable as my glocks are... with good magazines. It seems that 1911-style guns can be very picky about this. My stock Colt mags make better paperweights than ammo feeding devices, and the mag that came with my RIA isn't much better. With some Wilson Combat or Chip McCormick mags though, they run flawlessly.

There's a reason why you can get cheap stamped 1911 mags for $5, but a good mag can run you upwards of $30-$40/each.

I made the mistake of buying a couple of those cheapies just because i figured - what the hell, it's only $5/each. Biggest waste of money ever. Mags were so far out of spec they wouldn't even clear the magwell - let alone feed ammo.

GSG222
06-27-2010, 6:57 AM
A lot of good info here - and some great insights (and pics)! Sometimes I ask myself why reliability has to be measured by "going x number of rounds without cleaning"? For me, I use my Kimber for target shooting and HD. I will never need to shoot 1000x in a row; and since I appreciate my investment in the gun, I will never abuse it by leaving it dirty after 100-200 rounds. I never had any problem with the Kimber. To me that is a 100% reliable gun. I don't care what might happen after the 500 rds or 1000rds without cleaning because it's out of my world of reality. As said, 1911 is not A gun (like a Glock), it's a type of gun that allows countless ways of customization/configuration/modification (whatever you want to call it). It's always a personal thing to carry a 1911. So choose the right 1911 for your personality and life style. If you do intend to use it for years without cleaning and let it "gummed up" with crap, you may not want a 1911 after all. Why ask for a BMW and go through the trouble to make it work if you know you will be driving in muddy waters pulling logs all the time?

CSACANNONEER
06-27-2010, 7:12 AM
What's your point? As long as they can put forth the training to overcome the 1911's drawbacks (which they can, because that's what their CAREER revolves around), then why shouldn't they use the pistol they want to use? I never said the 1911 was a bad design, it's just horribly outdated and there are other pistols that are much more modern and user-friendly. Also note that the military (with a few clever exceptions) is limited to standard ball ammunition. One of the biggest reasons for re-adopting the 1911 is that they NEED the larger .45 caliber slug over the standard issue M9 w/ M882 ammo, because they cannot use the hollowpoints that make smaller calibers such as 9mm so much more effective. And with that, I'm done in this thread -- I don't much care for 1911 zealots. :rolleyes:

I guess Glock should try to make a gun in .45acp then. That way, according to your thinking, every LEO and combat soldier would choose to carry one.:rolleyes: I don't much care for Glock zealots. :rolleyes:

I have both and know which one I feel more comfortable with.


because they will be back on a ship, base or station in a matter of a few hours and will have some time to do some cleaning.

if you dont get the chance or time to do a little bit of cleaning, then thats just it.

So, every SF operation is over in a few hours?:rolleyes:

LA SWAT has been using 1911's for decades. IIRC, they had been using a hodgepodge mix of mostly WWII vintage 1911's that had been confiscated over the years, rebuilt and modified by the SWAT armorer. One can only assume these were getting pretty tired so the City bought replacements, which Kimber was awarded the contract for.

I recall reading an article about Larry Vickers where he stated that he fills the active duty hi-speed/lo-drag types orders first before any others, and that he's built duty pistols for many SF and Delta guys.

I stand corrected about LAPD SWAT.

OneSevenDeuce
06-27-2010, 9:04 AM
Good points all. So as I understand it, generally I get what I pay for in the 1911 world. Does this mean that the more expensive a 1911 gets, they generally have tighter tolerances? Is there a particular brand/make of 1911 that still has somewhat loose tolerances, apart from C&R 1911's?

Eh, not necessarily. It really depends on what the pistol was made for. The more expensive 1911s are sometimes made for the people who need/can afford all the bells and whistles. Competition shooters, serious enthusiasts, etc. However just because a 1911 is expensive doesn't mean that it is a competition grade pistol with tight tolerances. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. You really have to go and check out a few. See if the slide has any up and down, or side to side play. It shouldn't rattle like a broken walkman, but the play should be ever so slight, if that's what you are looking for. Also, lock the slide back and toggle the barrel back and forth a little. If there is a lot of play between the barrel and the bushing then it is obviously a looser fitting pistol.

If you are looking for one with what I call "combat" tolerances (ie: a bit looser) as opposed to "competition" tolerances (ie: tightly fitted) then I recommend the SA Milspec. The GI is good too in this regard, but the sights are very tough to pick up. The GI, however, is a great pistol in it's own right and is really cool if you are looking for something close to what our dads and granddads carried into battle.

gasol1ne
06-27-2010, 10:28 AM
Hrmmm. I guess a better way of asking what I wanted to know was how long a 1911 could be fired before it really started to gum up and in particular, have failures to return to battery, as that SEEMS (not is, seems) to be a common problem amongst 1911's, regardless of make. From what I understand, the 1911 platform is a little less forgiving of dirtiness in general. Of course, that could just be a blanket statement thats blatantly incorrect, but it is what I have heard.

in my experience the answer to this would have to depend on what type of ammo you are shooting, how new the 1911 is, and if you are holding the gun correctly.

Most range ammo is dirty and will of course make your gun gum up faster. Also most range ammo is underpowered so it might have problems cycling the gun. With the high cost of .45 these days most people shoot range ammo, thats why i think most people experience this type of problem.

Since the 1911 is an all metal gun it generally will have to be broken in. I hear its very difficult to get an even coating on the gun so the rails have to wear off some excess finish and wear down the high spots. If your 1911 is new and hasnt been broken in, you might have problems. This ofcourse can be be fixed by you just sitting in front of the tv and racking the gun over and over. haha

Lastly i have noticed if you hold the gun with a weak grip and/or you limp wrist it, it will sometimes not go into battery. You have to make sure to hold it correctly and tight enough so that you are activating the grip safety. Also dont limp wrist. I think it might do something to the momentum of the slide i think and prevents it from going fully into battery.

This are just based on my observations and are just my humble conclusions.

AJAX22
06-27-2010, 11:10 AM
I wouldn't say that.

Generally speaking - a 1911 will gum up and foul under a few conditions.
Most of the time it has to do with somebody who is operating under mis-info that this happens to. Notably, some people have this idea that 1911s need to be absolutely covered in oil, to the point of dripping with the stuff, in order to function properly.

This actually causes more problems then it solves. An excess of oil will in many cases collect dirt and gunk, and turn into a thick mud/grease like substance that will jam everything up. If you shoot outdoors in a dry/dusty environment - this is an even bigger risk.

If a 1911 is maintained properly this is far less of a risk.
I've found it really has very little to do with being a "real" 1911 or not - it has to do with how the gun is being maintained, and by whom.

While improper maintenance is a serious cause of failure.

The fact remains that my 1943 USGI colt has never had a failure under any circumstances....

And it has seen quite heavy use... with sporadic maintenance (when on loan)

Browning had very specific tolerances and dimensions which modern 'match' and 'custom' 1911's deviate from significantly to try to make the guns more 'accurate'

The reality is that a bone stock factory USGI 1911 is more accurate than 99.99999 % of shooters, so an 'accurized' super spiffy whiz bang 1911 is just a silly concept.

I have a colt 1991A1 which has had more abuse than most pistols see in a lifetime, and it still functions flawlessly with little or no maintenance. (I purchased it specifically to drag through harsh environments when I didn't want to abuse my nicer 1911's)

AJAX22
06-27-2010, 11:16 AM
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/S5002378.jpg

Once A Marine
06-27-2010, 11:35 AM
Not a combat pistol?

I think there's a few people who would disagree with you. I think they're called "Marines" And if you notice - that is NOT some shiny new Kimber, Wilson or Nighthawk Custom up there ;)



Only a small subset of Marines use the M-45 MEUSOC pistol, and have done so since 1985. IIRC, they are custom built at Quantico using a variety of commericially avaiable parts.

As to the durability, I have fired old 1911A1s (before the M9 hit the armories) in some nasty conditions - the worst was splashing water, mud, and grit into the handgun when doing standing-to-prone shooting drills. First round fired, you could hear the grit and metal grinding as the slide moved, then stopped prior to completing the feed. A quick smack of the back of the slide rammed the slide forward, and the handgun would cycle like this for as many shots as necessary.

After the drill was completed, I'd find a nice sized puddle, rinse off the pistol, reholster and go through the drill again :)

luckystrike
06-27-2010, 8:01 PM
I guess Glock should try to make a gun in .45acp then. That way, according to your thinking, every LEO and combat soldier would choose to carry one.:rolleyes: I don't much care for Glock zealots. :rolleyes:

I have both and know which one I feel more comfortable with.




So, every SF operation is over in a few hours?:rolleyes:



I stand corrected about LAPD SWAT.

would you know the 1st thing about SOC?

CSACANNONEER
06-27-2010, 8:08 PM
would you know the 1st thing about SOC?

Please, feel free to edumacate me on the subject.

I am saying this very sincerely.

ruchik
06-27-2010, 8:25 PM
Do 1911's like to run dry or wet? Is there a particular finish you guys recommend that lets crud flake/wipe off easily? I'm thinking about giving NP3 a go.

C.W.M.V.
06-27-2010, 9:02 PM
luckystrike, are you implying your an operator?

nn3453
06-27-2010, 9:18 PM
I guess Glock should try to make a gun in .45acp then. That way, according to your thinking, every LEO and combat soldier would choose to carry one.:rolleyes: I don't much care for Glock zealots. :rolleyes:

I have both and know which one I feel more comfortable with.




So, every SF operation is over in a few hours?:rolleyes:



I stand corrected about LAPD SWAT.

Glock makes the 21/21SF. Mine shoots on par with most 1911s I've owned or shot. Again, why compare? I know which one I prefer in a pinch.

nickvig
06-27-2010, 9:33 PM
Do 1911's like to run dry or wet? Is there a particular finish you guys recommend that lets crud flake/wipe off easily? I'm thinking about giving NP3 a go.

Grease the rails and oil the internals and you'll be fine. No pistol really likes being run 'dry' per se. As far as finish is concerned, you really can't go wrong with standard blued carbon steel.

And I'll re-iterate this because it seems like it's being glossed over, but you'll find that a loose 1911 will generally run better than a tight one. As more and more custom 1911 builders began to make clones they tightened up the tolerances and this is what really creates the mis-information that the 1911 is not reliable.

The other issue is FTF on JHP as well as ball ammo because of the barrel and feed ramp. New Colts have a dimple at the 6 o'clock position on the barrel which greatly increases reliability in feeding the round. You won't find that style barrel in SA's, RIA's, or other GI style 1911's.

Sinixstar
06-27-2010, 9:53 PM
And I'll re-iterate this because it seems like it's being glossed over, but you'll find that a loose 1911 will generally run better than a tight one. As more and more custom 1911 builders began to make clones they tightened up the tolerances and this is what really creates the mis-information that the 1911 is not reliable.


In the world of polymer frame guns, people have to remember that with the 1911 you're running steel on steel. That generates a good amount of friction. The tighter the tolerances make it more likely to generate more metal/metal friction. Compare that to a modern polymer frame gun where you're running a steel slide over a polymer frame - and that's a lot less friction generated. You can run a might tighter fit as a result.

This is really the entire basis behind the 'break in' theory. Guns that are built excessively tight or with less precision (rail is laser beam straight) need to be 'broken in'. Really that break in is nothing more than wearing down and mating the parts to overcome those excessively tight tolerances.

Everybody likes to compare glock vs 1911 - and they forget that there is a huge difference when you get into how the guns will work based on the materials being used. They each have their pros and cons. Hard to say one is better, they're just different.


The other issue is FTF on JHP as well as ball ammo because of the barrel and feed ramp. New Colts have a dimple at the 6 o'clock position on the barrel which greatly increases reliability in feeding the round. You won't find that style barrel in SA's, RIA's, or other GI style 1911's.

this is also a function of modern design tweaks. Different mfg's have messed with the design of the feed ramp, throating of barrels, etc etc. You look at 10 different 1911s, and unless they're built to original spec - you'll probably find some variation between all of them in this regard. As a result - they will like different kinds of ammo. The original 1911 design was based on LRN ammo that was developed specifically for the 1911. The idea of JHPs and whatnot came around after the fact. As a result - guns that feed those JHPs are a result of design modification. Some of those modifications work better than others.

Sinixstar
06-27-2010, 9:57 PM
Grease the rails and oil the internals and you'll be fine. No pistol really likes being run 'dry' per se. As far as finish is concerned, you really can't go wrong with standard blued carbon steel.

I like to use a combination of methods for lube. I like the Wilson Ultimalube (white grease) on the rails, a drop of oil like MilTech-1 on the barrel/bushing, and something really light (CLP) on the more internal parts.

The main thing is paying attention to quantity. Like I said before - a lot of people seem to run 1911s dripping wet with oil. You just need a drop on the barrel to help with the bushings, a touch on the rails, and make sure the internals aren't bone dry. THAT'S IT.

leelaw
06-27-2010, 10:45 PM
In the world of polymer frame guns, people have to remember that with the 1911 you're running steel on steel. That generates a good amount of friction. The tighter the tolerances make it more likely to generate more metal/metal friction. Compare that to a modern polymer frame gun where you're running a steel slide over a polymer frame - and that's a lot less friction generated. You can run a might tighter fit as a result.

Uh...

Um..

Look at your favorite polymer-framed pistol. You see those little 90-degree thingies that stick up and the slide runs on? What are those made of?

(Hint: it's not polymer)

bigbob76
06-27-2010, 11:11 PM
I've never pushed my Kimbers past 2500 of hard cast lead bullets without cleaning them. Of course a Glock would have probably blown up after 500 rounds of lead without cleaning. So, I would never consider a 1911 to be "essentially a Glock". It would be an insult to 1911s everwhere.

I agree, even though I like Glocks.

johnthomas
06-28-2010, 1:06 AM
I have many handguns, I like my 1911 combat commander the best.
I shoot for fun and experience. If one day I have to depend on one of my weapons for my family or myself, I know that no matter which weapon I grab, it will be well maintained, not dirty and un-inspected for problems that you can only find with a clean gun. Why would you care if your weapon will go hundreds of rounds before it fails? I would hate to find out when I need it the most.

elSquid
06-28-2010, 1:50 AM
Do 1911's like to run dry or wet?

Wet. According to Larry Vickers, you can't overlube and lack of lube is a real problem for 1911s.

http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/lubricating-the-1911/

-- Michael

CSACANNONEER
06-28-2010, 5:25 AM
Glock makes the 21/21SF. Mine shoots on par with most 1911s I've owned or shot. Again, why compare? I know which one I prefer in a pinch.

I own a G21. Note the sarcastic smiley. I think you mean that YOU shoot both about equally.:43:

nn3453
06-28-2010, 8:02 AM
I own a G21. Note the sarcastic smiley. I think you mean that YOU shoot both about equally.:43:

Happy to be schooled by you any day. Just bring your gun and ammo :)

Kiba
06-28-2010, 8:43 AM
Wet. According to Larry Vickers, you can't overlube and lack of lube is a real problem for 1911s.


I agree 100% at least in the lack of lube part of his statement-- both my 1911's are slathered up good with SlideGlide. As Larry said, any excess lube you apply will be forced out during manual cycling of the slide after reassembly or during the first few rounds out of the gun. At that point you can wipe the excess lube off the gun and the little splatters off your safety glasses with a rag. :p I do think that you can put too much lube on to the point it's oozing out of everywhere and that tends to attract dirt & contamination-- there is a happy balance between too dry and dripping-wet.

As far as the original posters question... my experience has been that 1911's are very tolerant of lack of constant cleaning or long intervals between cleanings as long as there is sufficient lubrication still present. I find this to be true for my other pistols and semi-auto rifles as well-- even if you don't strip & clean them after every trip to the range they all stay reliable for very long periods between cleanings as long as they are lubricated properly.

I currently have two 1911-style pistols, one an STI 2011 in .40 (USPSA limited) and one a Limcat built 2011-framed .38 supercomp (USPSA open gun.) Both are pretty tight tolerance guns. Recently I grew tired of stripping & cleaning after every trip to the range so I started to extend out the cleaning intervals to see how far I could run them without malfunctions. Currently the .40 2011 currently has over 1600 rounds of Bear Creek 180 moly coated lead bullets over TiteGroup down the pipe since the last cleaning and is still running great and the Limcat has over 1200 rounds of 124 grainers over Viht 3N38 down the pipe since its last cleaning. Both still run strong and haven't had any malfunctions. The slides are still butter-smooth with no hint of grittiness. I have not added any lube since the last cleaning; the rails, slide, and barrel hood are still plenty "wet" for proper function. An end of the day wipe down of all the exterior surfaces that get handled with an oiled rag is something I always do as sweat contains chlorides which are quite corrosive if left to sit.

With over 1K+ rounds down the pipe since the last cleaning both guns are pretty filthy in the breech and feedramp area but still run great. The .38 Supercomp gun is cleaner mostly because the Viht powder burns cleaner than the Titegroup powder I use in the .40. Granted, the filth in the breech area is all "soft" combustion debris and isn't really too much of a concern IMO. If the guns were to get filled with dirt, grit, or sand I'd take them down and clean them as soon as I had the opportunity to prevent that kind of contamination from becoming lapping compound and grinding away at the important parts. What I've learned is that there are some kinds of contamination that should be removed & cleaned up as soon as you get the chance (grit, sand, etc) and others that really aren't that big of a deal such as combustion byproducts & powder residue (ammo brand dependant, of course.) If the gun feels smooth and is running reliably I'm not too worried but if the slide ever feels "gritty" then it gets cleaned and re-lubed.

The SlideGlide makes a big difference, it is a very "clingy" lube that is hard to displace. When I do clean the guns it gets plenty of lube in all the contact points with an acid brush then I cycle the slide a few times by hand and wipe off any excess lube that squeezes out. Granted, I don't glop it on there so thick it's dripping off the gun onto the bench; after a few cleaning & lubing sessions I have a feel for the "just right" quantity that is enough to coat all the critical wear points sufficiently but not so much the gun drops big globs of grease onto my hands and bench when I reassemble it. Usually after reassembly and a couple cycles of the slide there are just 2 little spots of grease squeeze-out at the back of the slide to wipe off.

That being said, while they are both still running 100% with that many rounds down the pipe, if I were to knowingly take the guns to a situation where reliabilty was a primary consideration (a match, home defense, etc.) I'd prefer them to be freshly cleaned and lubed but with at least a few rounds down the pipe for a function check.

Anyways, here's what 1K+ rounds through a 1911 looks like. While the breech and ramp areas are pretty grungy the slides still move as smooth as butter without any grittiness and ample quantities of Slide Glide is still clinging to the rails, guide rod, and barrel hood. It's a damn good grease, after being turned onto it by the USPSA guys I now use it on my FAL, M1A's, AR's, and bolt guns too. It's amazing how tenacious it is and how long it lasts!

Pics of my Limcat open blaster, about 1200 rounds since the last stripdown & cleaning:

http://home.comcast.net/~swedish_chef/stuff/ForumStuff/limdirt1.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~swedish_chef/stuff/ForumStuff/limdirt2.jpg

Pics of my STI Edge .40, over 1600 rounds since the last strip down & cleaning:

http://home.comcast.net/~swedish_chef/stuff/ForumStuff/edgedirt1.jpg

After seeing those pictures blown up on my monitor I think I might clean my 2011's tonight even though they still run 100%... that just looks nasty.

Feel free to flame me for letting my guns get so filthy! :p

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 8:48 AM
Uh...

Um..

Look at your favorite polymer-framed pistol. You see those little 90-degree thingies that stick up and the slide runs on? What are those made of?

(Hint: it's not polymer)


Understood - but you're talking about far less metal-to-metal contact area with far less friction being generated.

compare:
http://www.parts.cc/glock/disassembly/Images/PushoutBlockpin.jpg

to :

http://www.cromwell-intl.com/garand/pictures/debluing-dscf1006-tn.jpg

see any diffference? ;)

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 8:57 AM
Wet. According to Larry Vickers, you can't overlube and lack of lube is a real problem for 1911s.

http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/lubricating-the-1911/

-- Michael

I would tend to politely disagree with Mr Vickers.
His explanation of "You might have some excess lube fly in your face while shooting or seep onto your hand, but excessive lubricant affecting reliable function is fiction."

That's only part of the story.

As I mentioned - that excessive lube has a tendency to trap dust and dirt. Turning said lube into a dry crusty, gunky, chunk of foul rather than a smooth clean lube. I guess in some regard at that point you could argue that there is no lube left, and technically your gun is "dry", and thus that's why it's not functioning so great. I think this is the simpleton view on things.

Bottom line is - you just don't need a tremendous amount of lube. With some of the more modern products out there - just because you don't see it dripping off the gun, doesn't mean it's not there. All you need is a little bit of a film to reduce the friction between parts. As long as you have that - you're good. Having your gun "wet" gives you no clear advantage, but gives you the disadvantage of turning your gun into a ball of gunk.

Don't believe me - go shoot in the desert on a breezy day...

edit: this sums up that article nicely. Two statements from the same article, one from the beginning, one from the end:

I have seen the WRONG lubricant used, specifically in cold weather, which can definitely cause malfunctions
And remember the golden rule; Any lube is better than no lube.

Not only is it self contradictory - but it's wrong. The wrong lube can and will cause more damage to your gun than no lube. Using the wrong lube you can turn an oil into essentially a lapping compound that will wear the parts faster than if you were simply running them dry.
Never mind that as Larry points out himself - using the wrong lube in the wrong conditions can cause failure in and of it's self - such as using the wrong type of lube in extreme cold.

Gallows
06-28-2010, 9:02 AM
My 1911 has been nothing but good to me, until I tried feeding it some hollowpoints. Jammed after almost every other round.

Bullwinkle
06-28-2010, 9:53 AM
Every firearm needs cleaning and maintenance. To not do so is stupidity; but that's why we have Darwin Awards.

That said, I've personally never had a 1911 "gum" up. Please note I am a casual 1911 shooter; the most abuse any of my 1911's have ever taken was a multi-day course. However, it is not uncommon for me to shoot 150-200rds in an hour's range time with cheaper ammo. When I get home and strip the gun, it's filthy, but it still kept shooting while I was doing my best to melt the barrel. :)

And speaking of courses... look at schools like Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, etc with courses that span several days outdoors in the elements (whatever the "elements" might happen to be on any particular day). You're shooting all day w/o cleaning (up to 500rds on some days), dumping magazines in the dirt, sweaty grimy hands, etc; and when you do finally get back to your hotel room after class and can squeeze in a cleaning, it's probably only a cursory wipe down or quick bore snake more than an actual cleaning. Yet the guns keep going bang the next day. [Some will argue that only Glocks routinely make it through such courses without failing... but my own personal observation is that Glocks fail more than 1911's in that scenario. To be fair, however, I think all but one of those Glocks were rental pistols, so who knows how well they're maintained.]

And then you have combat conditions, like posters before me have noted.

So here's the deal. Take care of your firearm--1911, Glock, Sig, Beretta, whatever--and it'll take care of you. All these idiots who claim they can fire 5,000 rounds through their handgun without cleaning are not role models whom you should be looking up to or taking advice from; in fact, quite the opposite. At the very least, Mr. Murphy dictates that the gun will fail on the 5,001st round, which is the one you'll need most. Clean your gun after you shoot it; that's the best thing you can do for yourself and your 1911. If you get lazy and let your firearm sit around dirty for days, that's when you'll start noticing gumming, pitting, rusting, etc.

wu_dot_com
06-28-2010, 10:14 AM
I guess Glock should try to make a gun in .45acp then. That way, according to your thinking, every LEO and combat soldier would choose to carry one.:rolleyes: I don't much care for Glock zealots. :rolleyes:

I have both and know which one I feel more comfortable with.




So, every SF operation is over in a few hours?:rolleyes:



I thought there were a rumor that some SF bought some number of G21s. i think having lots of rounds is definitely better when you know you will miss a lot to accommodate for that bulky grip.:p

what! so what happened in black hawk down is not real. i remember in the movie everyone had to spent the night there. damn Hollywood; making up stories just so we can stay for that full 90 min.:D

wu_dot_com
06-28-2010, 10:19 AM
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/S5002378.jpg

why:eek:.... you are a very sick man to have put a 1911 through this....

you shall pay for your sins.

Snapping Twig
06-28-2010, 11:46 AM
That's a horrible example. Sure, a good 1911 will feed FMJ ammo flawlessly, and some of them will even feed JHP. But they lack the features that make the Glock the excellent pistol that it is. A 1911 is an enthusiast's toy, not a serious combat pistol. 50 years ago it may have been the best that the world had to offer, but this is the year 2010 and there is newer, better technology. Embrace it.

Were he alive today, Jeff Cooper might take issue with that statement.

My 1911 was used Saturday by 9 different students of varying skill level to fire over 300 rounds and nary a hickup. Add to this, it fires my cast 230g TC well in all drills from Mozambique and the School Drill to El Presidente.

Shoot it all day long, mix and match ammo, it hits what you aim at every time.

1911 is THE combat pistol IMO.

nn3453
06-28-2010, 11:48 AM
1911 is THE combat pistol IMO.

When you make absolute statements like that, that is when it get contentious. There is no such thing as "THE combat pistol." There are different guns and design and all major ones work well within certain specifications and requirements. Anyone could claim that the Glock, Sig, CZ, HK is "The combat pistol." No such thing. It is also equally ridiculous to think of Jeff Cooper, Browning, etc. as prophets and as though their word is gospel. They were great men, but there have been others and one doesn't have to agree with everything they said or did.

elSquid
06-28-2010, 11:52 AM
I would tend to politely disagree with Mr Vickers

Sorry, you can't. This is the inter web - you must take everything personally and you certainly cannot be polite about it. That's a sign of weakness. Arrrr. :chris:



As I mentioned - that excessive lube has a tendency to trap dust and dirt. Turning said lube into a dry crusty, gunky, chunk of foul rather than a smooth clean lube. I guess in some regard at that point you could argue that there is no lube left, and technically your gun is "dry", and thus that's why it's not functioning so great. I think this is the simpleton view on things.

Bottom line is - you just don't need a tremendous amount of lube. With some of the more modern products out there - just because you don't see it dripping off the gun, doesn't mean it's not there. All you need is a little bit of a film to reduce the friction between parts. As long as you have that - you're good. Having your gun "wet" gives you no clear advantage, but gives you the disadvantage of turning your gun into a ball of gunk.

Don't believe me - go shoot in the desert on a breezy day...

Based on your personal experience, how long does it take for an excessively lubed gun to run to malfunction on such a day?


edit: this sums up that article nicely. Two statements from the same article, one from the beginning, one from the end:


I didn't read it as contradictory. The first statement is the 'wrong' lube vs the 'right' lube, and the second is 'no lube' vs 'lube'. Logically, that would seem to state: right lube >> wrong lube >> no lube.



Not only is it self contradictory - but it's wrong. The wrong lube can and will cause more damage to your gun than no lube. Using the wrong lube you can turn an oil into essentially a lapping compound that will wear the parts faster than if you were simply running them dry.

If we take dust storms out of the scenario, in other environments is there any downside to using an excessive amount of the 'right' lube?

-- Michael


-- Michael

Colt
06-28-2010, 12:22 PM
To answer the original question - my Colt 1911s do not gum up. I have put as many as 500 rounds through it/them in one session (and without stopping, other than to reload mags) without issue.

As mentioned by others, there are a few things one needs to do with a 1911 to ensure reliability:

Make sure the pistol is clean
Lube properly (many opinions on this - I use Militec 1, and no issues)
Change springs when necessary - Recoil spring, Main spring, magazine springs, plunger tube spring, firing pin spring
Check extractor tension - look out for extractor "clocking"
Use the proper mags with proper followers (a lot of different opinions here, too)
Use correct weight springs, especially main spring and recoil spring

I love the 1911, but like any other mechanical device, one needs to conduct regular maintenance. Treat it right, and it works great.

Snapping Twig
06-28-2010, 12:34 PM
When you make absolute statements like that, that is when it get contentious. There is no such thing as "THE combat pistol." There are different guns and design and all major ones work well within certain specifications and requirements. Anyone could claim that the Glock, Sig, CZ, HK is "The combat pistol." No such thing. It is also equally ridiculous to think of Jeff Cooper, Browning, etc. as prophets and as though their word is gospel. They were great men, but there have been others and one doesn't have to agree with everything they said or did.

Jeebus, lighten up man!

I said IMO, did you miss that?

Jeff Cooper started Gunsight and developed modern firearm fighting techniques, now taught in various forms to all branches of government and military and civilian. You disregard that?

Browning was so far ahead of his time in firearms design, he's considered an icon, and rightly so. Is he the only one, of course not.

I think the 1911 is all that AND a ham sandwich, YMMV.

AJAX22
06-28-2010, 12:52 PM
why:eek:.... you are a very sick man to have put a 1911 through this....

you shall pay for your sins.

I didn't do anything to her but give her a good home after a hard life.

She's recovered evidence from a murder trial.... and the associated 'evidence' she was splattered with did a number on her.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=81038

Still, she goes bang first time every time... can't ask much more than that from a pistol...

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 1:07 PM
Based on your personal experience, how long does it take for an excessively lubed gun to run to malfunction on such a day?

Is there a magic number of "if you do this, your gun will fail in X rounds",no, of course not. No 2 guns are identical. The issue isn't a matter of guarantee failure - it's a matter of contributing causes. What increases the likelihood of a failure, or increases the likelihood of damage?

I used to follow the philosophy of "no such thing as too much" when it came to lube and my 1911. Then I shot on one of those breezy days in the desert. 250-300 rounds through my gun and I did more damage to it then the 3000 rounds prior, and the 3000+ since then combined. Frankly, I'm astonished the thing continued to fire at all. I'm not sure how much longer it would have lasted. Did I have any failures? Surprisingly no, but I also cut my outing short.

My .22 did not fair so luckily. It made it about 50-100 rounds before it started having problems. The bolt face got so plugged up with a dust/oil mixture that it wouldn't entirely go into battery. Then the extractor got so gummed up it wouldn't extract. There wasn't even that much oil there. Just a light layer I had put on previously to help with rust.

Does that mean EVERYONE will have these results? Not at all. Just that it's about looking at potential/possible outcomes. Excessive lube while it may not be an instant death sentence - contributes to the likelihood of problems.


I didn't read it as contradictory. The first statement is the 'wrong' lube vs the 'right' lube, and the second is 'no lube' vs 'lube'. Logically, that would seem to state: right lube >> wrong lube >> no lube.

If we take dust storms out of the scenario, in other environments is there any downside to using an excessive amount of the 'right' lube?


Extreme cold is one example. If you've got your gun slathered in grease/oil and get caught in -30, you're very very likely to have problems as that grease/oil hardens up in the cold. Exception to this is if you're using a lube designed for extreme cold. Most of these are designed to be used sparingly however...

That's certainly a case of no lube > wrong lube.

Your assertion that "right lube > wrong lube > no lube" is like saying drinking poisoned water is better than drinking no water. Well - yes and no. Poisoned water WILL kill you in the next X hours. No water MIGHT kill you in the same time period. Which is worse?

What it comes down to is again - likelihood of damage, or likelihood of damage that may result in failure.

Use the right amount of lube to get your gun to function correctly, without damage. No more, no less.

nn3453
06-28-2010, 1:10 PM
Jeebus, lighten up man!

I said IMO, did you miss that?

Jeff Cooper started Gunsight and developed modern firearm fighting techniques, now taught in various forms to all branches of government and military and civilian. You disregard that?

Did you actually read my post? I do not disregard that. Cooper was a great man. But enough with the absolutes. There is no such thing as "THE combat pistol."

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 1:13 PM
Tell ya what.

If yall are so confident there won't be any problems - do this.

Go outside and find a big handful of really fine sand. Mix it with oil until you have a nice thick paste. Proceed to rub your gun with it repeatedly for an hour or so. Be sure and take before/after photos...

wsmc27
06-28-2010, 1:15 PM
I think the 1911 is all that AND a ham sandwich, YMMV.

:D

Gettin' hungry now...time to hit the kitchen then clean my old Commander!

on topik: My .45s (the Commander and a old Gold Cup NM series 70) have never had any "gum up easily" thang and always work fine.

;)

wsmc27
06-28-2010, 1:17 PM
I didn't do anything to her but give her a good home after a hard life.
<snip>
Still, she goes bang first time every time... can't ask much more than that from a pistol...

You're a good man no matter what they say...

;)

arose789
06-28-2010, 1:21 PM
I think that depends on how many rounds have gun through the firearm. Just like any other gun maintaining your firearm will help in the long run. I have S&W it takes very little work to clean. Been very happy with it for a long time.

Ricky-Ray
06-28-2010, 1:33 PM
My SA Mil Spec eat's anything I feed it. The only problem I have is trying to find good deals on 45 acp to feed it all the time. :)

Bhobbs
06-28-2010, 1:36 PM
All I can say is my grandpa has his father's M1911 that he was issued in WW1, used as county sheriff, constable and as a target pistol. It has an unknown round count but I would guess pretty high. All the same parts from the day it was built except for a spring or two. We take it to the range every so often and put a box of .45 through it for function. That is one reason I want a M1911 so bad.

wsmc27
06-28-2010, 1:39 PM
All I can say is my grandpa has his father's M1911 that he was issued in WW1, used as county sheriff, constable and as a target pistol. It has an unknown round count but I would guess pretty high. All the same parts from the day it was built except for a spring or two. We take it to the range every so often and put a box of .45 through it for function. That is one reason I want a M1911 so bad.

Awesome to have that history in your family .45, congrats.

elSquid
06-28-2010, 2:11 PM
I used to follow the philosophy of "no such thing as too much" when it came to lube and my 1911. Then I shot on one of those breezy days in the desert. 250-300 rounds through my gun and I did more damage to it then the 3000 rounds prior, and the 3000+ since then combined. Frankly, I'm astonished the thing continued to fire at all. I'm not sure how much longer it would have lasted. Did I have any failures? Surprisingly no, but I also cut my outing short.

Ok, so no malfs. How did you measure the wear on your gun?

Were there any other incidents, or do you base your position on this single instance?


My .22 did not fair so luckily. It made it about 50-100 rounds before it started having problems. The bolt face got so plugged up with a dust/oil mixture that it wouldn't entirely go into battery. Then the extractor got so gummed up it wouldn't extract. There wasn't even that much oil there. Just a light layer I had put on previously to help with rust.


What granularity was the dust? What kind of oil? It's interesting that it failed with a light layer of oil... what would be the alternative? No oil? How well does your 22 run with no lube?

Extreme cold is one example. If you've got your gun slathered in grease/oil and get caught in -30, you're very very likely to have problems as that grease/oil hardens up in the cold. Exception to this is if you're using a lube designed for extreme cold. Most of these are designed to be used sparingly however...

That's certainly a case of no lube > wrong lube.

Unless the gun doesn't run with no lube. Unless the gun wears more with no lube.



Your assertion that "right lube > wrong lube > no lube" is like saying drinking poisoned water is better than drinking no water.

Actually, that's Larry Vicker's assertion. :shrug:

Your assertion that "right lube > wrong lube > no lube" is like saying drinking poisoned water is better than drinking no water. Well - yes and no. Poisoned water WILL kill you in the next X hours. No water MIGHT kill you in the same time period. Which is worse?

It depends on the poison, of course. Radioactive water might increase the chances of cancer, but if you aren't going to live past three days without it, that fact hardly matters.

The optimal solution in that scenario is to bring lots and lots of clean water, and lubricate one's throat liberally! ;)

-- Michael

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 2:18 PM
I'm not going to play this BS game of "prove your data".
I could ask you the same questions. Prove that i'm "wrong".

You can't - because we're just debating opinions.

It's my opinion, based on my experience and the things i've done with my guns - that excessive oil can create some problems..

You disagree. That's fine.
I'm simply presenting another view on the subject based on my experience.

** you should also note that your reliable source, Mr Vickers, shows no empirical data either, only "experience". I'm simply pointing out that my results have varied, as tends to be the case when one is talking "experience".

leelaw
06-28-2010, 2:58 PM
why:eek:.... you are a very sick man to have put a 1911 through this....

you shall pay for your sins.

In his defense, it was someone else's blood.

elSquid
06-28-2010, 3:05 PM
** you should also note that your reliable source, Mr Vickers, shows no empirical data either, only "experience". I'm simply pointing out that my results have varied, as tends to be the case when one is talking "experience".

Larry Vickers was an assaulter and instructor for Delta. The folks in Delta are probably the most experienced 1911 combat shooters in the world. Mr Vickers is a 1911 pistol smith of some renown. He's also a member of American Pistolsmiths guild.

You disagree with his statements. You base this on a single instance of you shooting your 1911 in the desert, where the gun did not malfunction. You have no idea how much your gun was "damaged" during said trip. Your own experience does not back up your statements.

Now, Mr Vickers could be wrong and you could be right, but I don't believe that you've put forth a very compelling argument.

-- Michael

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 3:08 PM
9 inches...

beat that.

-- Michael


Fixed that for you.
Bottom line is - I used to take the advice of people like Vickers. I found their advice did not work well for me. I could give a rat's *** what he did, or what he knows, or how close to the floor his balls hang. I took his advice and was not happy with the results. My gun did not run smoothly, and I felt it took on an unusual amount of damage under certain circumstances. When I cleaned it - I found an unusually high amount of dust/oil buildup. I did not feel that was a good thing - despite Mr Vickers' claims to the contrary.

As I've already mentioned - your results may vary. Mine certainly did. ;)

andalusi
06-28-2010, 3:09 PM
I've heard quite a few conflicting stories on this. Some people say that a well built 1911 is essentially a Glock; it can run forever, can run whatever you put through it, etc. Certainly, some reports of quality 1911's like SA's offerings seem to indicate they can run through basically any type of ammo with few or no malfunctions. Then there's the advice of only feeding a 1911 premium ammo, the slide starts to gum up around 100-200 rounds of continuous firing, etc. So I'd to hear from the folks at Calguns: is a quality 1911, such as the ones put out by Kimber, SA, Wilson Combat, etc. the equivalent of a Honda that requires not too much maintenance and care, or a Ferrari which is a high performance machine that requires premium fuel and almost religious maintenance?

Not that I've got to take it to the range as much as it deserves, but my Dan Wesson PM7 hasn't had any problems through the 300-400 or so rounds I've had the pleasure of shooting through it. I've only completely stripped it down for a cleaning once. It runs just fine with a couple of passes from a Boresnake and lubricating the slide.

Can't speak as to any other 1911 as I don't own any other, though I do dearly hope to rectify that sad state of affairs.

wu_dot_com
06-28-2010, 3:12 PM
I didn't do anything to her but give her a good home after a hard life.

She's recovered evidence from a murder trial.... and the associated 'evidence' she was splattered with did a number on her.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=81038

Still, she goes bang first time every time... can't ask much more than that from a pistol...

Ooo i see. you are a good man for given a now home for a 1911 that seen some harsh life.

willm952
06-28-2010, 3:12 PM
C.W.M.V batboy? Just curious.

Snapping Twig
06-28-2010, 3:14 PM
Did you actually read my post? I do not disregard that. Cooper was a great man. But enough with the absolutes. There is no such thing as "THE combat pistol."

Of course I did, did you read mine?

You fight best with what you train with. I trained with the 1911, therefore for me it is (in absolutes) THE best fighting handgun.

We both are entitled to our opinions, you have yours, I have mine.

Have you gone to a school to train with a firearm such as Gunsite? If so, perhaps you have a favorite, what works best for you.

Like I said before, I have, and for me it's the 1911.

Does that make me the expert - of course not. Nor does it make the 1911 the best for everyone. For me, yes, for others - not so much.

elSquid
06-28-2010, 3:24 PM
I did not feel that was a good thing - despite Mr Vickers' claims to the contrary.

Fair enough. If you like to make decisions based on "feelings", that's certainly your right to do so.

-- Michael

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 3:30 PM
Fair enough. If you like to make decisions based on "feelings", that's certainly your right to do so.

-- Michael

Oh please. Get over yourself.

If i tell you to clean your gun with battery acid, you try it and say "hey - i think maybe the advice this guy gave me isn't really so great, I think maybe this battery acid thing is damaging my gun".
Are you opinions invalid because you don't have scientific evidence to back it up? If i'm an expert with 30 years experience - does that somehow invalidate the fact that your gun is getting ruined? If you decide not to listen to me - are you just going based on "feelings"?

elSquid
06-28-2010, 3:36 PM
Oh please. Get over yourself.

If i tell you to clean your gun with battery acid, you try it and say "hey - i think maybe the advice this guy gave me isn't really so great, I think maybe this battery acid thing is damaging my gun".
Are you opinions invalid because you don't have scientific evidence to back it up? If i'm an expert with 30 years experience - does that somehow invalidate the fact that your gun is getting ruined? If you decide not to listen to me - are you just going based on "feelings"?

Your own personal experiences didn't contradict anything that Larry Vickers wrote. What else is there to say?

-- Michael

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 3:38 PM
Your own personal experiences didn't contradict anything that Larry Vickers wrote. What else is there to say?

-- Michael

Like I said - if you disagree with me - feel free to prove me wrong. Go mix up a mixture of sand/oil - and take it to your 1911. Let's see the results.

It's not about feeling or any other BS you're trying to make it out to be.


I was out shooting.
I observed my gun not running the way it normally does.
I also observed it was very dusty that day.
I also observed that my gun was unusually dirty, and showed signs of wear that hadn't been there before.
I stopped shooting.
When I cleaned the gun later, I found a lot of gritty, sandy, oily gunk in my gun, along with what appeared to be unusual wear where that gunk (yes that's a technical term) was found.
I concluded - reasonably so I think - that the combination of sand/oil was causing damage to my gun.

When you can prove THAT wrong - come talk to me.

If you want to spout off any more bull**** about what somebody else thinks, or how big you think your dick is - save it.

CSACANNONEER
06-28-2010, 3:51 PM
Happy to be schooled by you any day. Just bring your gun and ammo :)

That can be arranged sometime. What part of the state are you in?

mjpjr
06-28-2010, 3:52 PM
I look at it this way. A 1911 is the ar-15 of the handgun world and a glock is a little more like the ak-47 of the handgun world. The 1911 shoots more accurate, but requires a little more care and can have problems with dirt and sand like most weapons(or like an ar-15 in this case) The glock(or ak) can handle dirt and sand better, is less likely to jam, but not as accurate or precise or well built.
Most common cause of feeding problems I have seen over the years with 1911s and M-16 has been lack of lube.
As far as weapons jamming in sand storms, that will happen with a lot of lube or very little. I spent 10 months in a giant desert and watched everything from 1911s, M-16s, and M-60s jam and have problems FROM THE SAND, not the lube. The fastest fix was a quick shot of lube to get things working again if we did not have time to field strip it and clean properly.
At one point, almost every helicopter in theater was grounded because of the damage the sand was causing. Had nothing to do with oil.

elSquid
06-28-2010, 3:52 PM
Like I said - if you disagree with me - feel free to prove me wrong. Go mix up a mixture of sand/oil - and take it to your 1911. Let's see the results.

What value is there in my repeating your test? As you said, the gun ran without malfunction and you weren't able to measure any noticeable wear...right?

-- Michael

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 3:54 PM
What value is there in my repeating your test? As you said, the gun ran without malfunction and you weren't able to measure any noticeable wear...right?

-- Michael

Get a life.
Go parse meaning somewhere else.

Black Majik
06-28-2010, 3:55 PM
http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn1.gif

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 3:56 PM
As far as weapons jamming in sand storms, that will happen with a lot of lube or very little. I spent 10 months in a giant desert and watched everything from 1911s, M-16s, and M-60s jam and have problems FROM THE SAND, not the lube. The fastest fix was a quick shot of lube to get things working again if we did not have time to field strip it and clean properly.
At one point, almost every helicopter in theater was grounded because of the damage the sand was causing. Had nothing to do with oil.

Understood.

The point I was making was that It appeared in my situation that the oil was attracting sand/dust and causing it to build up where it shouldn't be. Not an entirely revolutionary idea...

More oil = more sand held in that oil.
Less oil = less sand held in that oil.

That's the direct experience i've had.

ruchik
06-28-2010, 3:58 PM
Another question. Is there an appreciable difference in accuracy between a Government-sized 1911 and an Officer-sized 1911?

Colt
06-28-2010, 4:05 PM
Another question. Is there an appreciable difference in accuracy between a Government-sized 1911 and an Officer-sized 1911?

Depends on who's doing the shooting...

In theory (and probably in practice) the longer barreled Government model should be more accurate at distance.

Bhobbs
06-28-2010, 4:06 PM
Awesome to have that history in your family .45, congrats.

It really is. He had his M1917 he was issued but my grandpa doesn't know what happened to it.

mjpjr
06-28-2010, 4:12 PM
Understood.

The point I was making was that It appeared in my situation that the oil was attracting sand/dust and causing it to build up where it shouldn't be. Not an entirely revolutionary idea...

More oil = more sand held in that oil.
Less oil = less sand held in that oil.

That's the direct experience i've had.

And you do have a very valid point. The dirt and dust will stick to the oil and make a mess. But the sand and dirt will get in there even without oil and then you have a two problems. Dirt in the weapon and no lube to help it function correctly. Best thing is to try not to use your weapons in sandy or dirty conditions unless you have to. And if you have to, be prepared to clean it or keep a can of spray lube ready. There is a reason we were trained to fieldstrip our M-16s in the dark and as fast as possible. Because little lube or a lot of lube, in dirty conditions, you can expect problems.
Personally, my 1911s have only giving me problems when I didn't lube them enough.

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 4:14 PM
Another question. Is there an appreciable difference in accuracy between a Government-sized 1911 and an Officer-sized 1911?

For most people - you're going to see a bigger difference in accuracy due to the shorter sight radius than anything you're going to get from differences in bullet stability or anything of that nature.

There are exceptions to the rule (like the guy who can shoot his sub-compact glock over 200 yards) - but generally speaking, the differences in "inherent accuracy" are negligible. You can look at mfg's like Wilson for evidence of this. 5'' guns are guaranteed 1'' groups at 25 yards. The shorter barreled guns are guaranteed 1.5'' groups at 25 yards.

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 4:19 PM
And you do have a very valid point. The dirt and dust will stick to the oil and make a mess. But the sand and dirt will get in there even without oil and then you have a two problems. Dirt in the weapon and no lube to help it function correctly. Best thing is to try not to use your weapons in sandy or dirty conditions unless you have to. And if you have to, be prepared to clean it or keep a can of spray lube ready. There is a reason we were trained to fieldstrip our M-16s in the dark and as fast as possible. Because little lube or a lot of lube, in dirty conditions, you can expect problems.
Personally, my 1911s have only giving me problems when I didn't lube them enough.

I guess the point is, what is "enough"?

Is "enough" dripping wet with oil, and then more every 100 rounds, or is "enough" exactly that - enough that the gun functions correctly and smoothly?

wu_dot_com
06-28-2010, 4:32 PM
I guess the point is, what is "enough"?

Is "enough" dripping wet with oil, and then more every 100 rounds, or is "enough" exactly that - enough that the gun functions correctly and smoothly?

i think by his point, enough lubrication means the gun is in an operable state. dripping oil or operational smoothness are not of the critical concern.

if dropping oil is what it takes for the gun to function in a combat situation, so be it; let it drip.

mjpjr
06-28-2010, 4:37 PM
I found it depends on the weapon. My S&W Sigma (Glock clone) needs very little lube to operate perfectly all day. My 1911's require more to operate properly and sometimes even a quick re-lube after a few hundred rounds of dirty target ammo.
But as I think you were trying to point out, any lube beyond "enough" lube for that weapon will only serve to attract and hold dust and dirt. But if dripping wet is what it takes to get it operating properly, then attracting dirt is a secondary concern.

stormy_clothing
06-28-2010, 4:39 PM
In the era of glock there really is no need for a combat 1911 - especially with limited capacity and inability to shoot reloads for many models.

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 4:42 PM
I found it depends on the weapon. My S&W Sigma (Glock clone) needs very little lube to operate perfectly all day. My 1911's require more to operate properly and sometimes even a quick re-lube after a few hundred rounds of dirty target ammo.
But as I think you were trying to point out, any lube beyond "enough" lube for that weapon will only serve to attract and hold dust and dirt. But if dripping wet is what it takes to get it operating properly, then attracting dirt is a secondary concern.

yes, that's precisely the point i was trying to make. Apparently that's an invalid suggestion since the great Larry Vickers doesn't have it on his site?

As for the "dripping wet to operate properly" - maybe i'm wrong, but if my gun ever requires that much lube to run - Dirt isn't even a secondary concern. the primary concern is "wtf is wrong with this thing?". It simply shouldn't ever NEED to be dripping wet to work right.

Chief-7700
06-28-2010, 4:51 PM
In the era of glock there really is no need for a combat 1911 - especially with limited capacity and inability to shoot reloads for many models.

Some people like plastic and some like steel. Debate which is better a Glock or a 1911 is a question that is a circular discussion that feeds off itself.

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 4:51 PM
In the era of glock there really is no need for a combat 1911 - especially with limited capacity and inability to shoot reloads for many models.

Inability to shoot reloads? where do you even get this?

wsmc27
06-28-2010, 4:53 PM
:lurk5:

AJAX22
06-28-2010, 4:54 PM
yes, that's precisely the point i was trying to make. Apparently that's an invalid suggestion since the great Larry Vickers doesn't have it on his site?

As for the "dripping wet to operate properly" - maybe i'm wrong, but if my gun ever requires that much lube to run - Dirt isn't even a secondary concern. the primary concern is "wtf is wrong with this thing?". It simply shouldn't ever NEED to be dripping wet to work right.


lol, You mean like how an AR15 is supposed to be run?

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 5:00 PM
lol, You mean like how an AR15 is supposed to be run?

Your AR15 != my 1911....

tacticalcity
06-28-2010, 5:07 PM
My 1911 has been nothing but good to me, until I tried feeding it some hollowpoints. Jammed after almost every other round.

Well, it probably did you a favor. Hallowpoints lead to lots of failure to stops. Too much engery dissapation and not enough penetration. I understand the argument in favor of them, and absolutely LOVED them for years. Recently switched back to FMJ for a little more effectiveness when running into chestbone, rib cage, and so on. Hitting vital organs is the key to stopping a bag guy in his tracks. Hollowpoints were supposed to decrease failure to stops by creating a large wound track and reducing thru-and-thrus, but the reports we are getting from law enforcement (most departments switched to them a few years back) is not encouraging.

I do understand the concern about using an FMJ inside a building such as a home. However, 98% of interior wall material, and 95% of exterior wall material simply is not going to stop a round no matter what type of round it is. Drywall and insalation simply is not gonna do it. Homes just aren't built they way they used to be. So do the math. What are odds you'll hit that 2% or 5% of material capable of stopping your less powerful round that has a significantly higher rate of failures to stop because it most likely will not penetrate thick bone? Just guessing on the numbers there, but I honestly think people choosing "indoor" safe ammo are to a degree kidding themselves that they are indeed safer. I do understand that if you have children in the home, you want to do everything you can to keep them safe. I would argue spending more money on training vs. buying more expensive ammo is the better way to go.

There are valid arguements on the otherside. They just don't hold up for me based on the above.

joedogboy
06-28-2010, 5:08 PM
Its like the AK of pistols, sturdy, reliable and reasonably accurate. Completely different animal from a glock.

I'll add another comparison: The 1911 and the M2 .50 cal mg are from the same era, and have many of the same qualities in common. They are both robust designs that have stood the test of time, and continue to prove the genius of their designer.

joedogboy
06-28-2010, 5:13 PM
In the era of glock there really is no need for a combat 1911 - especially with limited capacity and inability to shoot reloads for many models.

Do Glocks not take reloads well?


I haven't put many through mine, but I've put over a thousand reloads through my SA 1911A1. My only 1911 feed problems have occurred with certain magazines (evidently a bad angle on the follower) that I no longer use.

wu_dot_com
06-28-2010, 5:21 PM
Do Glocks not take reloads well?


I haven't put many through mine, but I've put over a thousand reloads through my SA 1911A1. My only 1911 feed problems have occurred with certain magazines (evidently a bad angle on the follower) that I no longer use.

you might want to throw in the fact that there is no problem running lead down your 1911, while you have to think twice when you are using a glock. :43:

what would those glock ownsers do when the zombies take over the world and you cannot find any FMJs around...:eek:

NiteQwill
06-28-2010, 5:29 PM
I smell a ban coming. ;)

mjpjr
06-28-2010, 5:58 PM
As for the "dripping wet to operate properly" - maybe i'm wrong, but if my gun ever requires that much lube to run - Dirt isn't even a secondary concern. the primary concern is "wtf is wrong with this thing?". It simply shouldn't ever NEED to be dripping wet to work right.
If the enemy is trying to kill you and your weapon jams because of dirt or sand, you wont be worried about it getting dripping wet to clear it out and get it operating again. Should never need to be dripping wet to start out with, but if thats what it takes to keep it operating in harsh conditions under fire, then dripping wet it is. Point is, take any 1911 or M-16, dry or dripping wet with oil and throw dirt and sand in it. It will have problems, oil or no oil. Now take same weapon and flush it out with spray lube. It will probably start working again. Of course its best to field strip and clean in that situation, but thats not always and option and a dripping wet functioning weapon is better then a "properly" lubed non functioning weapon any day.

wu_dot_com
06-28-2010, 6:13 PM
If the enemy is trying to kill you and your weapon jams because of dirt or sand, you wont be worried about it getting dripping wet to clear it out and get it operating again. Should never need to be dripping wet to start out with, but if thats what it takes to keep it operating in harsh conditions under fire, then dripping wet it is. Point is, take any 1911 or M-16, dry or dripping wet with oil and throw dirt and sand in it. It will have problems, oil or no oil. Now take same weapon and flush it out with spray lube. It will probably start working again. Of course its best to field strip and clean in that situation, but thats not always and option and a dripping wet functioning weapon is better then a "properly" lubed non functioning weapon any day.

since you said spray, i was suspecting flushing out the sand rather than actually lubricating the gun.

i think user the condition you are describing, even glocks would need flushing out every so often.

jescobedo
06-28-2010, 6:21 PM
all I hear is springfield, colts, kimber, glocks... what about a rock island 1911 ?? any good ?? just asking.

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 6:25 PM
If the enemy is trying to kill you and your weapon jams because of dirt or sand, you wont be worried about it getting dripping wet to clear it out and get it operating again. Should never need to be dripping wet to start out with, but if thats what it takes to keep it operating in harsh conditions under fire, then dripping wet it is. Point is, take any 1911 or M-16, dry or dripping wet with oil and throw dirt and sand in it. It will have problems, oil or no oil. Now take same weapon and flush it out with spray lube. It will probably start working again. Of course its best to field strip and clean in that situation, but thats not always and option and a dripping wet functioning weapon is better then a "properly" lubed non functioning weapon any day.

First - forget the spray lube. Take a hose to it. I bet it works just as well. When you're talking about *that* much dirt and sand, you're right, it doesn't matter.

Second, I understand all of that - but those are situations the vast vast majority of us are simply never going to face. I think there's a little bit of a disconnect when we're talking about "problems". Problems for somebody in the desert who's in the middle of a firefight - are a little bit different than problems for me at the range. For one, i'm not defending my life. For two, I don't have access to the military's budget, supply of parts, or armorers. So what I see as a "problem" is generally going to be a little more sensitive then what some others might view as a problem.
To that end - I don't want my 1911 to just WORK. I want to avoid undue wear and tear, since I have to fix that stuff out of pocket. That's why things like "hey - that excess oil is holding excess sand" are a problem in the first place. Is it making my gun completely lock up and stop functioning? Not explicitly - but it's making me stop shooting it - because I have to worry about more than simply "does it work?".

I understand entirely that if/when your life depends on it - a dripping wet gun is better then nothing. Again though - context. We're talking about extreme examples versus real world day to day use by the average state-side civilian. If you're in the military, in iraq, fighting a war- your results may vary - a LOT.

In real world day to day use (aka - going to the range) you may not be happy with everything that comes with having your gun dripping wet. There are some unintended side effects that you may not be pleasant about, even if your gun continues to function.

Is this making sense?

elSquid
06-28-2010, 6:47 PM
:lurk5:

-- Michael

CSACANNONEER
06-28-2010, 7:08 PM
Do Glocks not take reloads well?


I haven't put many through mine, but I've put over a thousand reloads through my SA 1911A1. My only 1911 feed problems have occurred with certain magazines (evidently a bad angle on the follower) that I no longer use.

When I worked at a range, we rented Glocks and sold reloads to shoot through them. I really doubt that many of our Glocks ended up with over 50,000 rounds through them before they got replaced but, most of those rounds would have been reloads.

mjpjr
06-28-2010, 7:08 PM
First - forget the spray lube. Take a hose to it. I bet it works just as well. When you're talking about *that* much dirt and sand, you're right, it doesn't matter.

To that end - I don't want my 1911 to just WORK. I want to avoid undue wear and tear, since I have to fix that stuff out of pocket. That's why things like "hey - that excess oil is holding excess sand" are a problem in the first place. Is it making my gun completely lock up and stop functioning? Not explicitly - but it's making me stop shooting it - because I have to worry about more than simply "does it work?".


Is this making sense?

Believe it or not, it doesnt take lot of dirt to mess up a 1911 or especially a M-16. But if you want to avoid undue wear, DON'T shoot your weapon in sandy or dusty conditions. No matter how much or little oil you use, it will cause more wear and possible problems. You are making sense but seem to miss the point. The oil is not your enemy, the conditions you were shooting are. If you insist on shooting your guns in those conditions, then outside of getting an AK, be prepared to clean them every few magazines or shoot them dripping wet. Quality and accurate weapons usually have tight fitting parts. Dirt or sand getting in between these parts with or without oil will cause problems and excessive wear.

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 7:13 PM
Believe it or not, it doesnt take lot of dirt to mess up a 1911 or especially a M-16. But if you want to avoid undue wear, DON'T shoot your weapon in sandy or dusty conditions. No matter how much or little oil you use, it will cause more wear and possible problems. You are making sense but seem to miss the point. The oil is not your enemy, the conditions you were shooting are. If you insist on shooting your guns in those conditions, then outside of getting an AK, be prepared to clean them every few magazines or shoot them dripping wet. Quality and accurate weapons usually have tight fitting parts. Dirt or sand getting in between these parts with or without oil will cause problems and excessive wear.

that's the really funny thing...

Believe it or not - when I stopped running it dripping wet... I stopped having a pasty coating all over my barrel and rails at the end of the day. It was dirty, but the parts weren't covered in mud.

Again - it's not about the extremes. There's a big difference between bone dry and dripping wet. There's also a big difference between perfectly clean, and the middle of an Iraqi sandstorm.

Most of us live in that world of middle-ground - where the arguments about the extreme just don't hold up.

mjpjr
06-28-2010, 7:41 PM
Then I shot on one of those breezy days in the desert. 250-300 rounds through my gun and I did more damage to it then the 3000 rounds prior, and the 3000+ since then combined. Frankly, I'm astonished the thing continued to fire at all. I'm not sure how much longer it would have lasted. Did I have any failures? Surprisingly no, but I also cut my outing short.

My .22 did not fair so luckily. It made it about 50-100 rounds before it started having problems. The bolt face got so plugged up with a dust/oil mixture that it wouldn't entirely go into battery. Then the extractor got so gummed up it wouldn't extract. There wasn't even that much oil there. Just a light layer I had put on previously to help with rust.



Extreme cold is one example. If you've got your gun slathered in grease/oil and get caught in -30, you're very very likely to have problems as that grease/oil hardens up in the cold. Exception to this is if you're using a lube designed for extreme cold. Most of these are designed to be used sparingly however...



Your shooting in the desert on a windy day and getting caught in -30 degree weather sounded a little extreme to me. So I brought up my experience with the desert to explain why someone would have problems with a lot of oil or with "just a light layer to prevent rust" :rolleyes: in those conditions.
I am glad you found the perfect amount for your guns. Enjoy.

Sinixstar
06-28-2010, 8:09 PM
forget it.

novabrian
06-28-2010, 8:12 PM
Yes never buy one.This is the reason they are changed every year ever since there inception!

Glock-matic
06-28-2010, 8:24 PM
There have been lots of studies done by Army ordinance and FBI on how much oil is too much. Both agencies recommend a light coat of oil. Guns and ammo did a reliability test a number of years ago using differing oils at various temperatures, they found the broadest reliability came from using a light teflon based lubricant.

As for designs, internet forums were born to give a voice to those not worth listening too. There are a lot of agencies that use 1911s, there are a lot of agencies that use Glocks. I, for one, would feel comfortable with either, depending on use and method of carry.

As far as the tacti-fool crowd, most have yet to fire a shot outside of controlled range conditions. When things get bad, simpler is almost always better. 1911s are simple designs, and glocks are simpler.

As for special forces, there are a variety of pistols being used, HK's are prevalent, as are sigs, 1911's, glocks, and even Berettas, on occasions. Most spec ops teams put primary focus on the rifle or carbine as a primary weapon, pistols are less of a priority and have limited roles (despite the constant hours of practice and training).

The preference for the 1911's is one of physics, 45 FMJs make bigger holes than smaller caliber FMJs. That being said, the Glock 21 (SF being excepted) fits the hand like holding a 4x4 post. Bringing JHPs into the equation, I would suspect 40's would have a much larger showing.

STAGE 2
06-28-2010, 9:37 PM
The preference for the 1911's is one of physics

I disagree. The preference for the 1911 is the trigger. There isn't a glock alive that can touch a properly worked 1911 trigger.

5ohguy
06-29-2010, 10:05 AM
The only reliability issues I've ever had with my SA mil-spec is when I used to little lubricant. After one horrendous jam at a local range, the range officer (an older gentleman who was carrying a 1911 on his hip) instructed me to use more oil.

In addition to grease on the rails, he said liberal use of oil is key because it helps the debris flow out of key areas. Now I haven't had one issue in 1000 rounds.

Now I run all my weapons wet.

23 Blast
06-29-2010, 10:36 AM
My $0.02. - I have owned a total of four 1911's

1. Armscor EFS : holy moly what a piece of crapollee. Would feed fine for about two magazines, then have all sorts of troubles. This even though it ce with some really nice magazines which my other 1911's absolutely loved (can't remember name offhand - started with "g" and mags had a polished look.

2. Springfield Armory GI - despite being bone-stock and an exact copy (more or less) of what our boys carried into the Bulge and onto Iwo Jima, my particular model must've been fitted too tight because I had lots of feeding issues with it. Wouldn't feed. Then wouldn't extract. Slide wouldn't lock back on empty mag. Just not much fun to shoot when I was dealing with a malfunction every few magazines.

3. Rock Island Armory 1911 in .38 Super. Had an extractor issue when I first got it, it was too tight which prevented proper feeding of the rounds. Once I adjusted it, she runs like a dream. Granted, I don't run hundreds of rounds through it without cleaning it, as ammo is pricey and I tend to be miserly when I shoot this gun, but after I adjusted the extractor tension, no problems whatsoever.

4. Colt XSE government model: Zero malfunctions that weren't ammo-related (usually primer failing to detonate). Just a great, great gun. I love it. Points like a dream and shoots like a laser beam. Has eaten many different kinds of ammo, from standard ball fmj, to jhp, to flatnosed lead reloads, flatnosed 200gr jacketed bowling pin loads, and everything in between. A great gun which, until I had to replace a broken safety lever recently, was absolutely trouble free.

Okay - that said, it pains me that of the 4 1911's I've owned, only the most expensive of them ran (and ran and ran) properly right out of the box. Even the cheap POS Armscor I bought was still roughly the se price as a Glock back then. Almost every other handgun I've bought have been, by contrast, much more reliable on average based on dollars spent.

Gallows
06-29-2010, 12:32 PM
Well, it probably did you a favor. Hallowpoints lead to lots of failure to stops. Too much engery dissapation and not enough penetration. I understand the argument in favor of them, and absolutely LOVED them for years. Recently switched back to FMJ for a little more effectiveness when running into chestbone, rib cage, and so on. Hitting vital organs is the key to stopping a bag guy in his tracks. Hollowpoints were supposed to decrease failure to stops by creating a large wound track and reducing thru-and-thrus, but the reports we are getting from law enforcement (most departments switched to them a few years back) is not encouraging.

I do understand the concern about using an FMJ inside a building such as a home. However, 98% of interior wall material, and 95% of exterior wall material simply is not going to stop a round no matter what type of round it is. Drywall and insalation simply is not gonna do it. Homes just aren't built they way they used to be. So do the math. What are odds you'll hit that 2% or 5% of material capable of stopping your less powerful round that has a significantly higher rate of failures to stop because it most likely will not penetrate thick bone? Just guessing on the numbers there, but I honestly think people choosing "indoor" safe ammo are to a degree kidding themselves that they are indeed safer. I do understand that if you have children in the home, you want to do everything you can to keep them safe. I would argue spending more money on training vs. buying more expensive ammo is the better way to go.

There are valid arguements on the otherside. They just don't hold up for me based on the above.

The reliability of using HPs was enough for me to stop using them period. I feel pretty comfortable using FMJs as a home defense round. Thanks for the reply, it was a good read.

Colt
06-29-2010, 5:40 PM
I'll add another comparison: The 1911 and the M2 .50 cal mg are from the same era, and have many of the same qualities in common. They are both robust designs that have stood the test of time, and continue to prove the genius of their designer.

Indeed - John Moses Browning knew what he was doing.

Blue
06-29-2010, 5:44 PM
Only problems I've ever had with my 1911's was crappy mags, once I bought good magazines my problems went away.

bruce381
06-29-2010, 6:07 PM
I skipped ahead here as far as lube vs no lube let me say this as a mfg of lubricants and metalworking fluids i know a little.

recently has a customer test various lubes mixed with lapping grit to see which one removed metal faster and had a smother finish.

Well NO lube and grit had highest metal removal rate.
All other lubes added to the grit had lower removal rate.

based on this testing IMHO lube plus grit is better than DRY with grit.
but me I will use the right lube and keep guns clean. no need to stretch things I have 2 1911 both custom so i want them to last.
bye the way I have gone 1000 rounds before without cleaning but then had FTF issues.
bruce