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View Full Version : Another C&R question (and I did SEARCH)


jdberger
04-06-2006, 12:54 AM
Can a California FFL ship a C&R rifle directly to a C&R licensee? Or, does it have to go through DROS and a 01 FFL?

Example:

An FFL I know in ...let's say Taft... has a C&R rifle. I have an 03 C&R (and a COE). I live in NorCal.

Can the FFL ship straight to me?

Answers with the correct cite would be great. The DOJ site isn't very friendly.

Thanks to all....

timmy8151
04-06-2006, 6:58 AM
In addition to a C&R license, you need a Certificate of Eligibility in order for places like S.O.G. or Sarco to ship directly to you.

For C&R handguns, you must still have them DROS'd through and 01 dealer, but the COE eliminates the 10-day wait. The COE also eliminates the one-handgun-per-month limit on C&R handguns only.

I'm sorry but you're wrong. A COE is NOT needed for C&R FFL sales made outside of California. I've purchased nearly 15 C&R longguns out of state and had them delivered to my door.

ocabj
04-06-2006, 7:11 AM
The original question was CA FFL to CA C&R FFL.

No. A California 01FFL may not ship a rifle directly to a California C&R holder. It must be DROS'ed and 10-day wait takes place (unless you have COE, which eliminates the wait).

Yes. You can receive C&R rifles from parties out of State with your C&R FFL.

jdberger
04-06-2006, 7:32 AM
The original question was CA FFL to CA C&R FFL.

No. A California 01FFL may not ship a rifle directly to a California C&R holder. It must be DROS'ed and 10-day wait takes place (unless you have COE, which eliminates the wait).

Yes. You can receive C&R rifles from parties out of State with your C&R FFL.

Thanks. You get an A for paying attention.

That (above) is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of. I can accept a rifle from out of state without having to DROS it, but because I want to do business with a member of the California business community who pays taxes and local fees and all of that, the government wants to penalize me by forcing me to pay a $25 registration tax and whatever my local FFL charges?

What jackasses.

Guinness
04-06-2006, 7:54 AM
Personally, I've never and wont buy anything from dealers in CA with my C&R - Most all the larger sellers are out of state anyway, and its hard to beat their prices even with the shipping.. Aim, Empire Arms, Classic Arms, Interordanace etc.. All have been very good to deal with for me..

Besides, why give the State an extra $25 for a DROS that isnt needed. The C&R is your background by the BATF... Just keep a good log

ocabj
04-06-2006, 8:15 AM
The only time I bought a C&R rifle (C&R according to Federal law) from a CA dealer was a Yugo M59 SKS (not a M59/66). While it's a C&R, the "must be over 50 years old" State law prohibits me from buying the M59 from out of State via mail order. I know some out of State dealers will ship an M59 direct to a CA C&R holder, but I wouldn't risk it.

tenpercentfirearms
04-06-2006, 8:37 AM
Is there something that says it has to be over 50 years or does it just have to be on the C&R list for you to mail order it out of state?

If you have your C&R license, don't waste your time with a California dealer, just order one direct yourself. The only benefit is if you were in Taft and liked what you saw and wanted to skip the 10 day wait. I agree, this is the stupidest rule ever and it cost me a sale. Just order out of state and screw California for their stupidity. I would have appreciated the business too, but out of principle I wouldn't do it if I were you.

EOD Guy
04-06-2006, 10:22 AM
Is there something that says it has to be over 50 years or does it just have to be on the C&R list for you to mail order it out of state?

If you have your C&R license, don't waste your time with a California dealer, just order one direct yourself. The only benefit is if you were in Taft and liked what you saw and wanted to skip the 10 day wait. I agree, this is the stupidest rule ever and it cost me a sale. Just order out of state and screw California for their stupidity. I would have appreciated the business too, but out of principle I wouldn't do it if I were you.

With certain exceptions, California law requires that all firearms transfers be conducted through a California dealer. One of the exceptions is for C&R rifles and shotguns that are over 50 years old. California doesn't care if you are licensed or not.

I've posted this before, but here is a short synopsis of California law pertaining to C&R firearms. California Penal Code reference are provided.

There is a lot of confusion around concerning the California regulations on C&R Firearms. The first thing to remember is that California, with few exceptions, requires all firearms transfers in the state to be processed through a dealer [Penal Code 12072(d)]. There is no exception for C&R FFL holders. There is however, an exception to the dealer transfer requirement for C&R rifles and shotguns that are over 50 years old. [PC 12078(t)(2)] This exception is available to anyone legally able to possess firearms. California doesn’t care if you are licensed or not, that’s a Federal matter. The 50 year rifle and shotgun exception is the reason that C&R FFL holders in California can receive these types of firearms directly from an out of state supplier.

The California definition for a C&R firearm is exactly the same as that used by BATF in 27CFR. California references both Title 18 and 27 CFR for the definition. If the Feds say a firearm is C&R, so does the California DOJ.

There are a couple of exceptions to the firearms laws that are available to C&R FFL holders. If the licensee also holds a Certificate of Eligibility (COE) from the California DOJ, they are exempt from the 10-day waiting period when buying C&R firearms from a dealer. [PC 12078(t)(1)] The same C&R FFL holder with a COE is also exempt from the one handgun a month law for both C&R and modern handguns. [PC 12072(a)(9)(B)] You also would not need a handgun safety certificate when purchasing C&R handguns. [PC 12807(a)(6)]


Where the C&R FFL comes in handy is when the holder is out of the state. They may purchase any C&R firearm and bring it back to California. The exceptions of course include those “evil” “assault weapons”. Also, magazines with a capacity greater than 10 rounds cannot be brought back. Any C&R handguns purchased must be registered with the California DOJ within 5 days and are reported on Form BCIA 4100A along with a $19.00 payment for each handgun. [PC 12072(f)(3)]

ocabj
04-06-2006, 11:03 AM
Is there something that says it has to be over 50 years or does it just have to be on the C&R list for you to mail order it out of state.

The ATF generally classifies C&R firearms to be any firearm 50+ years old or any firearm listed on the ATF C&R list.

California State law indicates that C&R holder may only receive a C&R rifle from an out of state party if that rifle is older than 50 years.

As far as the reverse situation goes, a CA C&R holder shipping a C&R rifle that is less than 50 years old (ie: Yugo M59 SKS) to an out of State FFL, I don't think there's any State law prohibiting that. But don't quote me on that.

timmy8151
04-06-2006, 11:20 AM
The only time I bought a C&R rifle (C&R according to Federal law) from a CA dealer was a Yugo M59 SKS (not a M59/66). While it's a C&R, the "must be over 50 years old" State law prohibits me from buying the M59 from out of State via mail order. I know some out of State dealers will ship an M59 direct to a CA C&R holder, but I wouldn't risk it.

Interordnance shipped me a 59/66 with my C&R with the CA muzzle attachment. When I asked about the 50 year rule, they said that they got the ok from the DOJ to sell them as C&R.

unimog_88
04-06-2006, 11:45 AM
Interordnance shipped me a 59/66 with my C&R with the CA muzzle attachment. When I asked about the 50 year rule, they said that they got the ok from the DOJ to sell them as C&R.

Ohhhh... that's a good news. But I wonder if IO exactly knows what they are doing.

tenpercentfirearms
04-06-2006, 12:51 PM
As far as the reverse situation goes, a CA C&R holder shipping a C&R rifle that is less than 50 years old (ie: Yugo M59 SKS) to an out of State FFL, I don't think there's any State law prohibiting that. But don't quote me on that.Anyone can send a firearm through the proper common carrier to a Class 01 FFL. You don't need a C&R license to send guns to a Class 01 FFL anywhere in any state.

ocabj
04-06-2006, 1:37 PM
Anyone can send a firearm through the proper common carrier to a Class 01 FFL. You don't need a C&R license to send guns to a Class 01 FFL anywhere in any state.

Whoops. I needed to insert 'C&R' when I said "out of State FFL". But yes, you are correct regarding sending to a 01 FFL.

Interordnance shipped me a 59/66 with my C&R with the CA muzzle attachment. When I asked about the 50 year rule, they said that they got the ok from the DOJ to sell them as C&R.

I know AIM and J&G will not sell a 59/66 with the neutered grenade launcher directly to CA C&R FFL holders. J&G's reason was not because of the 50 year rule, but because of the fact that the M59/66 with the altered grenade launcher makes a permanent alteration of the firearm and since the firearm is no longer in the original 'as-issued' style condition, it loses C&R status at the Federal level. I don't want to argue that interpretation of the law, since that issue can be dedicated to a whole other thread altogether.

grammaton76
04-06-2006, 2:13 PM
Hmm, so what about transfers between 03 C&R guys in California? Say, both of you have a C&R license and wish to transfer. Does that have to go through an 01 as well?

ocabj
04-06-2006, 3:56 PM
Hmm, so what about transfers between 03 C&R guys in California? Say, both of you have a C&R license and wish to transfer. Does that have to go through an 01 as well?

The C&R FFL license is pretty much irrelevant when it comes to transferring a C&R rifle between two private parties. CA State law allows for the transfer of any long gun (non AW, of course) that is older than 50 years of age between two private parties without going through a 01 FFL for the PPT paperwork. I've sold a K31 and an Enfield to a friend of mine straight up. All I had to do was log it in my C&R "bound book" (which is a Federal requirement, not a State req).

My only concern in this kind of direct transfer is knowing whether or not the guy I'm selling it to is prohibited from owning a firearm (ie: felon, restraining order). I'd feel more comfortable if the CA buyer had a C&R FFL for peace of mind and to cover my a. But I guess a person could theoretically have a restraining order placed upon him/her and still possess a C&R FFL.

jdberger
04-06-2006, 8:59 PM
I agree, this is the stupidest rule ever and it cost me a sale. Just order out of state and screw California for their stupidity. I would have appreciated the business too, but out of principle I wouldn't do it if I were you.Nah you didn't. I'l give you a call tomorrow. I need a good excuse to head down south anyway.

gunshack
04-07-2006, 5:28 PM
California State law indicates that C&R holder may only receive a C&R rifle from an out of state party if that rifle is older than 50 years.

I don't know what makes you think that. There is nothing in CA's law that even mentions a C&R 50 years old or otherwise except for section 12078(t)(2) which relates to PPTs.

It obviously depends on who you ask at the DoJ, but if you send a letter you'll get the legal response back. I just got an M59/66 from Interordnance Wednesday. No laws were broken.:cool:

EOD Guy
04-07-2006, 5:47 PM
I don't know what makes you think that. There is nothing in CA's law that even mentions a C&R 50 years old or otherwise except for section 12078(t)(2) which relates to PPTs.

It obviously depends on who you ask at the DoJ, but if you send a letter you'll get the legal response back. I just got an M59/66 from Interordnance Wednesday. No laws were broken.:cool:

If it was less than 50 years old, the law was broken. California law requires that all firearms transfers be conducted through a California dealer. There is no exemption for C&R FFL holders. The 50 year old C&R exemption is an exception to that requirement.

EOD Guy
04-07-2006, 5:48 PM
I don't know what makes you think that. There is nothing in CA's law that even mentions a C&R 50 years old or otherwise except for section 12078(t)(2) which relates to PPTs.

It obviously depends on who you ask at the DoJ, but if you send a letter you'll get the legal response back. I just got an M59/66 from Interordnance Wednesday. No laws were broken.:cool:

If it was less than 50 years old, the law was broken. California law requires that most firearms transfers be conducted through a California dealer. There is no exemption for C&R FFL holders. The 50 year old C&R exemption is an exception to that requirement.

gunshack
04-07-2006, 5:54 PM
Please show me the law I broke.

icormba
04-07-2006, 7:20 PM
EOD Guy is pretty knowledgable on the C & R stuff from past posts I've seen, including this topic.

But then again... about a year ago everyone HERE was 99.9999% sure there was NO way to get a AR lower or AK reciever into California.

There are 0 laws in California that pertain to the mention of a 03FFL... only laws pertaining to the C & R guns themselves.

Also, if this is True:
California law requires that all firearms transfers be conducted through a California dealer.

Anyone who bought/ordered a CMP M1 Garand (any under 50 years old that is) would have broke the law!

gunshack
04-07-2006, 8:08 PM
Section 12070(a) defines what a dealer in the state can or cannot do, and subdivision (b)(17) gives the exemption to some one with a Type 03 and a COE. CA law has no bearing on what a dealer outside the state can do. The type 03 FFL is designed to allow the INTERSTATE transfer of firearms deemed C&Rs by the feds.

I still don't see where it says the interstate transfer of a C&R less than 50 years old to a Type 03 licensee is not allowed. And believe me, I've looked. This 50 year old thing is a myth, I wish it would die a quiet death!


From the Dangerous Weapons Control Law:
12070. (a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless he or she has been issued a license pursuant to Section 12071. Any person violating this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not include any of the following:
(17) The delivery of an unloaded firearm that is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, by a person licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto with a current certificate of eligibility issued pursuant to Section 12071 to a dealer.

icormba
04-07-2006, 8:13 PM
Yeah, but the 03FFL also says that a holder must abide by all state and local laws.

p.s. I couldn't find anything at the State or Local level either.

ocabj
04-07-2006, 9:49 PM
I still don't see where it says the interstate transfer of a C&R less than 50 years old to a Type 03 licensee is not allowed. And believe me, I've looked. This 50 year old thing is a myth, I wish it would die a quiet death!

The interpretation of the 50 year rule is stated by EOD Guy in an earlier reply. All firearms sales must go through a dealer (01 FFL). A 03FFL is not a dealer. It is a collector.

Any rifle 50 years or older may be transferred without the use of a dealer (01 FFL). This is how you are able to purchase a 50+ year old rifle from out of State within CA State law guidelines. The C&R FFL only addresses the Federal intrastate transfer of the firearm (which you yourself stated).

But someone did make a good point about late serial number Garands sold by the CMP to CA residents. The CMP tries to be aware of State laws and doesn't seem to have any problem sending late serial Garands to CA in previous years.

As far as that M59/66 you bought from Interordnance, you violated Federal law. That rifle, if it was permanently altered to be CA legal (removal of grenade launcher), is no longer a C&R rifle according to the ATF because it is no longer a Yugo M59/66 SKS as issued.

gunshack
04-07-2006, 10:22 PM
I bought a C&R with my Type 03 FFL. No laws were broken.

If you disagree with me, please prove me wrong.

Mssr. Eleganté
04-07-2006, 11:21 PM
The section of the law that you broke is 12072(d)...

12072(d) Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's license issued pursuant to Section 12071, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer of that firearm through either of the following:
(1) A licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Section 12082.
(2) A law enforcement agency pursuant to Section 12084.

In your transaction for the Yugo M59/66, neither party to the transaction held a dealer's license issued pursuant to Section 12071. You have a Collectors license, and I/O has a dealers license that was not issued pursuant to Section 12071.

The exeption to the above rule is for 50 year old long guns. The M59/66 is not 50 years old.

EOD Guy
04-08-2006, 4:53 AM
The interpretation of the 50 year rule is stated by EOD Guy in an earlier reply. All firearms sales must go through a dealer (01 FFL). A 03FFL is not a dealer. It is a collector.

Any rifle 50 years or older may be transferred without the use of a dealer (01 FFL). This is how you are able to purchase a 50+ year old rifle from out of State within CA State law guidelines. The C&R FFL only addresses the Federal intrastate transfer of the firearm (which you yourself stated).

But someone did make a good point about late serial number Garands sold by the CMP to CA residents. The CMP tries to be aware of State laws and doesn't seem to have any problem sending late serial Garands to CA in previous years.

As far as that M59/66 you bought from Interordnance, you violated Federal law. That rifle, if it was permanently altered to be CA legal (removal of grenade launcher), is no longer a C&R rifle according to the ATF because it is no longer a Yugo M59/66 SKS as issued.
The CMP is exempt from the Gun Control Act of 1968. California has recognized that exemption and allowed them to ship to California residents. A very small percentage of CMP firearms shipped to California are under 50 years old. Those are mostly .22 cal rifles.

EOD Guy
04-08-2006, 5:12 AM
Section 12070(a) defines what a dealer in the state can or cannot do, and subdivision (b)(17) gives the exemption to some one with a Type 03 and a COE. CA law has no bearing on what a dealer outside the state can do. The type 03 FFL is designed to allow the INTERSTATE transfer of firearms deemed C&Rs by the feds.

I still don't see where it says the interstate transfer of a C&R less than 50 years old to a Type 03 licensee is not allowed. And believe me, I've looked. This 50 year old thing is a myth, I wish it would die a quiet death!


From the Dangerous Weapons Control Law:

The section of the Penal Code you quoted only applies to the transfer of a C&R by a collector to a dealer.

Ammendment II quoted the section of the code that applies (although the provision for transfers through law enforcement agencies was repealed effective Jan 1). The 50 year rule that is at PC 12078(t)(2) is an exception to that requirement and it says nothing about only applying to private party transfers.

Also, 27CFR 478.58 requires you to comply with all state and local laws concerning your activity. Your FFL gives no immunity from state law.

icormba
04-08-2006, 9:30 AM
As far as that M59/66 you bought from Interordnance, you violated Federal law. That rifle, if it was permanently altered to be CA legal (removal of grenade launcher), is no longer a C&R rifle according to the ATF because it is no longer a Yugo M59/66 SKS as issued.

Interordnance's M59/66's still have the grenade launchers on them... they have a welded sleeve around the grenade launcher so they won't accommodate a grenade. Well, the 3 I bought from Irvington Arms are like that anyway. Then again, I don't have any grenades to check. :confused:

gunshack
04-08-2006, 9:43 AM
I never claimed immunity from state law, I claimed I didn't break it.

Amendment II makes the best argument yet. But what you fail to recognize is this is an interstate transaction, governed by the federal law.

Where does it say that only a dealer may receive a firearm from out of state? We know I can't order a new Remington 700 unless it goes to dealer, but what about a gunsmith who has firearms shipped to him from all over the country, yet is not licensed pursuant to 12071? It is legal for a gunsmith in CA to conduct buisness with nothing but a Type 01 FFL. Can he only receive firearms that are over 50 years old?

Anyway, we can go around and around about this with nothing more than our interpretations of an over-complex body of text. I've called the DoJ myself about this years ago, and got conflicting answers. I'm sending a letter to the DoJ and I will post the letter I get in return.

gunshack
04-08-2006, 9:49 AM
As far as that M59/66 you bought from Interordnance, you violated Federal law. That rifle, if it was permanently altered to be CA legal (removal of grenade launcher), is no longer a C&R rifle according to the ATF because it is no longer a Yugo M59/66 SKS as issued.

Interorndnance has a letter from the ATF stating their Californication sleeve doesn't revoke the C&R status of the M59/66.

EOD Guy
04-08-2006, 5:38 PM
I never claimed immunity from state law, I claimed I didn't break it.

Amendment II makes the best argument yet. But what you fail to recognize is this is an interstate transaction, governed by the federal law.

Where does it say that only a dealer may receive a firearm from out of state? We know I can't order a new Remington 700 unless it goes to dealer, but what about a gunsmith who has firearms shipped to him from all over the country, yet is not licensed pursuant to 12071? It is legal for a gunsmith in CA to conduct buisness with nothing but a Type 01 FFL. Can he only receive firearms that are over 50 years old?

Anyway, we can go around and around about this with nothing more than our interpretations of an over-complex body of text. I've called the DoJ myself about this years ago, and got conflicting answers. I'm sending a letter to the DoJ and I will post the letter I get in return.

A gunsmith in California must be licensed pursuant to the California Penal Code as a dealer. That is a Federal requirement. Gunsmiths must have a type 01 FFL and any other permits/licenses required by the state.

Face it, you are wrong and have no concept of the California Penal Code.

What you fail to understand is that Federal law requires you to comply with all state and local laws.

This will be my final post on this subject as I'm tired of arguing.