PDA

View Full Version : Concealed carry in a back pack


Mr_Monkeywrench
06-25-2010, 1:11 PM
Now I had a question. I live in a non CCW friendly county and Im going with my wife to South and East LA to visit her family. They live in a pretty rough neighborhood and she's had some cousins shot at. I had a question. I own a Maxpedition Fat boy:
http://www.maxpedition.com/store/pc/FATBOY-VERSIPACK-4p31.htm
and I was wondering, If I carry a pistol with lock on it and a magazine in the OUTSIDE magazine pouch (which would kind of make it open carry :confused:) they are all in separate compartments. Now would I be breaking any laws?

Untamed1972
06-25-2010, 1:31 PM
you can have the mag in the same pouch as the gun as long as it's not IN the gun and the zipper is locked you're GTG.

Mr_Monkeywrench
06-25-2010, 1:39 PM
this is probably a stupid question, but can the magazine be loaded?

OleCuss
06-25-2010, 1:43 PM
A point of clarification?

I want to emphasize that the zipper must be locked. Having a gun lock (like you get from the dealer when they sell you a pistol) on your pistol will not be sufficient. You have to have the pistol in a locked container.

I'm trying to remember what that will mean for you if you spend any time in a Gun-Free School Zone. . . If you aren't merely transporting through a GFSZ there might be issues? You can look it up on the Wiki.

OleCuss
06-25-2010, 1:43 PM
this is probably a stupid question, but can the magazine be loaded?

Yup!

Edit: Yup, it can be loaded. Not, "Yup, it's a stupid question". And seriously, the CalGuns wiki is your friend. Very little bad info there.

grammaton76
06-25-2010, 1:53 PM
and I was wondering, If I carry a pistol with lock on it and a magazine in the OUTSIDE magazine pouch (which would kind of make it open carry :confused:) they are all in separate compartments. Now would I be breaking any laws?

Keep the pistol and the magazine in the same pouch. You don't want your magazine getting exposed somehow and providing probable cause to search the rest of your gear.

I would recommend using the Blackhawk / Uncle Mike's hip pouch though, to be honest. That's how I LUCC.

Glock22Fan
06-25-2010, 2:09 PM
Or Dillon Precision's "Plan B", which looks like a day planner and costs around $26. You gotta carry it, but it is far less obvious than a belt pouch.

advocatusdiaboli
06-25-2010, 2:24 PM
That's like a tactical man purse, large size. I dig it though it probably screams "GUN" to LEOs. Fatboy Versipack (http://www.maxpedition.com/store/pc/...IPACK-4p31.htm)

Window_Seat
06-25-2010, 2:55 PM
That's like a tactical man purse, large size. I dig it though it probably screams "GUN" to LEOs. Fatboy Versipack (http://www.maxpedition.com/store/pc/...IPACK-4p31.htm)

^^+1^^

Although LEOs might also be aware that a person who goes to the trouble to pick up one of these are likely not as much of a threat as one who has a universal holster. Or that statement could make me seem naive.

On a related question, suppose an LEO detained one with this kind of backpack based on the backpack alone.

Scenario:

LEO: "I see you are carrying a Maxpedition CC backpack, is there a gun in there?"

BP holder: "I wish to remain silent per my rights under the 5th".

LEO does a Terry Stop (http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0392_0001_ZS.html) & searches and then arrests. There was no violation prior (eg. jaywalking, etc.), the only thing that set the LEO off was the fact that he recognizes the backpack as one which is specifically designed as a CC backpack. Therefore there was no PC to detain in the first place because the person with the bag was walking from his car to maybe... a gym to work out.

Is the CC holder off the hook based on the fact that the LEO detained without any PC, and there are no prior 911 calls, and the LEO did not observe the person doing anything suspicious (eg. looking into cars, walking back & forth, standing in the middle of the street, etc.)?

Erik.

Untamed1972
06-25-2010, 3:00 PM
^^+1^^

Although LEOs might also be aware that a person who goes to the trouble to pick up one of these are likely not as much of a threat as one who has a universal holster. Or that statement could make me seem naive.

On a related question, suppose an LEO detained one with this kind of backpack based on the backpack alone.

Scenario:

LEO: "I see you are carrying a Maxpedition CC backpack, is there a gun in there?"

BP holder: "I wish to remain silent per my rights under the 5th".

LEO does a Terry Stop (http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0392_0001_ZS.html) & searches and then arrests. There was no violation prior (eg. jaywalking, etc.), the only thing that set the LEO off was the fact that he recognizes the backpack as one which is specifically designed as a CC backpack. Therefore there was no PC to detain in the first place because the person with the bag was walking from his car to maybe... a gym to work out.

Is the CC holder off the hook based on the fact that the LEO detained without any PC, and there are no prior 911 calls, and the LEO did not observe the person doing anything suspicious (eg. looking into cars, walking back & forth, standing in the middle of the street, etc.)?

Erik.

What is the person being arrested for you in your scenario? If the gun is loaded and zipper is locked then there was no violation for which to a arrest? Or are you saying the person was carrying loaded and concealed w/o a permit?

Of for the record to the OP.....if you're carrying unloaded in a locked case/container then you are NOT carrying concealed. You are obeying the law which requires your gun to be transported in a locked container.

winnre
06-25-2010, 3:04 PM
Of for the record to the OP.....if you're carrying unloaded in a locked case/container then you are NOT carrying concealed. You are obeying the law which requires your gun to be transported in a locked container.


So... rather than carry UOC carry in a locked container. That way you get concealability without needing the permit...?

grammaton76
06-25-2010, 3:10 PM
So... rather than carry UOC carry in a locked container. That way you get concealability without needing the permit...?

Read up on LUCC (Locked Unloaded Concealed Carry). Some of us have been doing precisely this for years now.

On a related question, suppose an LEO detained one with this kind of backpack based on the backpack alone.

Scenario:

LEO: "I see you are carrying a Maxpedition CC backpack, is there a gun in there?"

You're seriously overthinking this. You know that "sore thumb" hip pouch? That's on my hip just about every day in the evenings.

Never. Been. Stopped.

Rarely even looked at twice. It's all in how you carry yourself. The other part here is, look like the kind of person that would have a valid CCW too. SPARE ME the "it's my right to wear tattoos, be covered in piercings, dress like a gang banger, have weird hair, and not have the police look twice at me" bullcrap. It may be your right, but it's not the way the world works and there are tactical reasons for looking like a standard office drone. Anyone who knows me knows I've got plenty of individuality, even dressed in business casual all day.

You should be prepared to refuse access to it up to and including the point of being arrested for some bogus "obstruction" charge or something. Without you opening your mouth, there's really no PC they can generate for it. Moreover, they'll have had to violate your 4th (?) amendment rights in order to get to the point where they know for sure there IS a gun there.

Do yourself a favor - get a CC case and put an airsoft gun or a blue gun in it. Go about your daily life. I assure you that unless you start acting twitchy, you'll notice that no one really looks.

http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/RefLegalCaLUCC

This is what the one I use looks like:
http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/RefBlackhawkBeltPouchHolster

ElkHunterSL
06-25-2010, 3:11 PM
And to confirm...if my gun is in a locked container its ok to have the magazine in the same container, but the magazine cannot be in the gun in the locked container even though the gun isn't chambered?

grammaton76
06-25-2010, 3:20 PM
And to confirm...if my gun is in a locked container its ok to have the magazine in the same container, but the magazine cannot be in the gun in the locked container even though the gun isn't chambered?

You can store an EMPTY magazine in the gun if you want. In fact, that may even be a good idea to keep lint out of it. Just not a loaded mag.

If your container is large, storing an empty mag in the gun will also prevent the 1/10,000 chance that the mag and gun will shift around enough to stick the mag in the gun within the container as you hike.

ElkHunterSL
06-25-2010, 3:25 PM
Great thanks. I'm headed to a CCW class tomorrow and was curious about transport.

winnre
06-25-2010, 3:27 PM
Read up on LUCC (Locked Unloaded Concealed Carry). Some of us have been doing precisely this for years now.



This is all news to me, wow. Learn something every day. Now to be a legitimate "lock" what are the requirements? Plastic flex-cuffs that I open with a knife in 1/2 second? Four number dial lock?

JOEKILLA
06-25-2010, 3:44 PM
How about one of these, locked and inside a backpack?

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/policestuff_2112_24950710

Mr_Monkeywrench
06-25-2010, 6:34 PM
This bag which I have does not have double zippers. So if I cut a small hole in the material and ran a lock through the one zipper and through the hole, would that suffice?

dantodd
06-25-2010, 7:08 PM
How about one of these, locked and inside a backpack?

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/policestuff_2112_24950710

Perfectly fine. Many people carry locked containers that aren't simply gun rugs because they want to carry them directly rather than in a back pack and carrying a gun rug around would garner unwanted attention.

adamsreeftank
06-25-2010, 7:41 PM
How about one of these, locked and inside a backpack?

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/policestuff_2112_24950710

I like that. Where can I get them?

TurboChrisB
06-25-2010, 8:14 PM
LA Police gear has them for $8.99 I got two and they are as nice as they look

http://www.lapolicegear.com/moc-diplomat-pistol-case.html

winnre
06-25-2010, 8:22 PM
Great price! Ordered one!

N6ATF
06-25-2010, 8:24 PM
Do any Versipacks have 2 zippers to be locked together? I thought it was just 1 and you had to get creative with paracord and a pen/pencil holder to lock it.

Ha:
http://img136.exs.cx/img136/1867/mmmwwwfriendly1fk.jpg

Mr_Monkeywrench
06-25-2010, 9:11 PM
Do any Versipacks have 2 zippers to be locked together? I thought it was just 1 and you had to get creative with paracord and a pen/pencil holder to lock it.

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing and also, would a zip tie be considered a "lock"?

GuyW
06-25-2010, 9:17 PM
If your container is large, storing an empty mag in the gun will also prevent the 1/10,000 chance that the mag and gun will shift around enough to stick the mag in the gun within the container as you hike.

It also helps prevent an unscrupulous LEO from shoving your loaded mag into the mag-less gun....

.

Crom
06-25-2010, 9:20 PM
Great thread. You could also buy one of these and carry the case inside a backpack or other bag.

http://www.center-of-mass.com/Store_InCarGunSafe.htm

Crom
06-25-2010, 9:24 PM
Yeah, I was wondering the same thing and also, would a zip tie be considered a "lock"?

No. The penal code says:


Calif. Penal code section 12026.1. (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=53019721455+2+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve) (2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in
accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.

Mr_Monkeywrench
06-25-2010, 9:31 PM
thanks for the Info :)

Uriah02
06-25-2010, 9:38 PM
Or Dillon Precision's "Plan B", which looks like a day planner and costs around $26. You gotta carry it, but it is far less obvious than a belt pouch.

It doesn't look like it has lock friendly zippers for LUCC, but great for CCW.

Crom
06-25-2010, 10:12 PM
Read up on LUCC (Locked Unloaded Concealed Carry). Some of us have been doing precisely this for years now.

http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/RefLegalCaLUCC

This is what the one I use looks like:
http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/RefBlackhawkBeltPouchHolster


Thanks for your post. Especially the gunwiki link. It took me a while to digest it, but there is very important information contained in the 'Legal Points' section. It has taken me an hour to digest it but it does a really good job of explaining the locked case exemptions which are very important because understanding the exemptions is critical to staying within the bounds of the law.

I strongly recommend anyone who LUCC's to read that.
:)

advocatusdiaboli
06-25-2010, 10:20 PM
Even the silent zippers (i.e. with nylon paracord) can be locked. The problem with this law, as I have come to see it, is it is extremely vague on many key points about "locked" and "locks" and "containers" and makes it akin to (in another sense) Gene H. calls "wobble". Oaklander and others have contributed that these is no case law to resolve this vague area. He proposed the "10-seocnd rule" which to this day, although soundly proposed, has not bee tested in the courts. So we are on our own to do our level best and hope the LEOs know what they are doing and, if not, to keep it colorless so CFG helps us out of the ensuing mess. Man, do we need POI incorporation under McDonald more than ever.

grammaton76
06-25-2010, 11:26 PM
Thanks for your post. Especially the gunwiki link. It took me a while to digest it, but there is very important information contained in the 'Legal Points' section. It has taken me an hour to digest it but it does a really good job of explaining the locked case exemptions which are very important because understanding the exemptions is critical to staying within the bounds of the law.

I strongly recommend anyone who LUCC's to read that.
:)

*grin* Thanks - you wouldn't believe how much reading I had to do on here and in the CPC before I felt comfy enough to write that. I think I had it in draft status for close to a year. :)

Thrasher416
06-26-2010, 3:19 AM
Ha:
http://img136.exs.cx/img136/1867/mmmwwwfriendly1fk.jpg

^LMAO that made my day :D

badandy
06-26-2010, 4:50 AM
So... gun and loaded clips, not installed but in the same compartment, of my backpack on a motorcycle is OK as long as zippers are locked? Or must the mags remain unloaded?

Can/must ammo be in a separate compartment?

Is my gun case acceptable with the supplied "cablelock" and then zippers may be unlocked? Or must the zippers be locked... period. If so the gun and mags need not be in a case...?

I couldn't reach it if I tried, if the gun and mags are in a locked case in my backpack... and loaded or unloaded clips?

I do NOT have a CCW permit.

I would be less likely to be questioned if there wasn't a lock on the zippers.



Just read the WIKI...

Gun and loaded clips OK as long as in a locked case within my backpack, plastic case locked with supplied cable lock. Am I correct? Additional ammo can be anywhere?

gunsmith
06-26-2010, 3:09 PM
*grin* Thanks - you wouldn't believe how much reading I had to do on here and in the CPC before I felt comfy enough to write that. I think I had it in draft status for close to a year. :)


its a great read and well done, I've started sending it via email to the various gunnies I know

jl123
06-26-2010, 3:32 PM
So... gun and loaded clips, not installed but in the same compartment, of my backpack on a motorcycle is OK as long as zippers are locked? Or must the mags remain unloaded?
Zippers locked, Mags loaded.....OK

Can/must ammo be in a separate compartment?
Same compartment.....OK

Is my gun case acceptable with the supplied "cablelock" and then zippers may be unlocked? Or must the zippers be locked... period. If so the gun and mags need not be in a case...?
Case or backpack have to be locked.....gun lock not OK.



I would be less likely to be questioned if there wasn't a lock on the zippers.



Just read the WIKI...

Gun and loaded clips OK as long as in a locked case within my backpack, plastic case locked with supplied cable lock. Am I correct? Additional ammo can be anywhere?
Case or backpack have to be locked....pretty much everything else sounds OK

....

Experimentalist
06-26-2010, 5:02 PM
Here's how I LUCC:

xxgL7IeSaGE

A discussion is here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=306925

I hope to have some updates to share soon. I've added a removable cover so the elastic bands are not the only thing covering the gun.

Hopefully I'll be showing this at the Dinner on Monday (I will not be bringing any firearms - it's still a prototype and the case will be empty)

jerryg1776
06-26-2010, 6:51 PM
I have used a bank money bag with a built in lock before to carry..... meets the standard of a locked case and is very very tough.

http://www.staples.com/MMF-Industries-Nylon-Locking-Night-Deposit-Bag-Navy/product_513457?cmArea=SEARCH

Added - Inside a backpack to clarify.

kel-tec-innovations
06-26-2010, 8:45 PM
Its not different than transporting a firearm on a motorcycle inside a backpack

KylaGWolf
06-26-2010, 10:26 PM
The problem of using unenforced zippers is you run the risk of those zippers being popped open and then the lock being rendered useless and a possible you broke the law accusation. There are plenty of belt pouches and the like that keep the legal risk to a minimum if you are going to LUOC.