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ZombieKiller
06-25-2010, 9:58 AM
So a friend of mine went downtown in this certain city for lunch....

He had just picked up his brand new LMT....He didn't want to leave it in his trunk because it was a "shady" spot. He decides to bring his new rifle in his discreet padded case to lunch so it does not get stolen- seemed reasonable.

Question-

Was it legal for him to carry his rifle- unloaded, no ammo- in a case to lunch with him?..I know the type of case does not matter- but it was very very discreet..kinda cool actually. Nobody even gave a second look. I know the law prohibits the concealed handguns- but are long guns covered? Is this considered carrying a concealed weapon? I thought it was....but I don't actually know..

Thanks in advance for the wisdom....

CSACANNONEER
06-25-2010, 10:06 AM
A firearm with a +16" barrel does not fit te legal definition or "a firearm capable of being concealed". So, there is no legal way he could have been chargedconvicted of a CCW violation. Of course, I will assume that if he was in a GFSZ, it was in a locked case. If he was not in a GFSZ or other GFZ, it's up to the bussiness(es) that he was patronizing to allow it or not.

winnre
06-25-2010, 10:14 AM
Have him put this on the pistol grip...


http://www.nightviewproductions.com/images/products/N0506-Severed%20Hand_pro.jpg

ZombieKiller
06-25-2010, 10:23 AM
Can you get that hand in black? My friend is black....

winnre
06-25-2010, 10:26 AM
How about no skin, just blood?


http://www.celebrations-party.co.uk/acatalog/ManacledSeveredHand.jpg

dieselpower
06-25-2010, 11:15 AM
Ok, lets talk about this. The firearm was concealed. While 12025 talks of weapons capable of being concealed, the act of concealing a firearm is illegal..is it not?

12025 and the exclusions to it talk about transporting and carring cancealable firearms. Can you point to a law stating longarms are excluded from concealed carry law?

CSACANNONEER
06-25-2010, 11:34 AM
Ok, lets talk about this. The firearm was concealed. While 12025 talks of weapons capable of being concealed, the act of concealing a firearm is illegal..is it not?

12025 and the exclusions to it talk about transporting and carring cancealable firearms. Can you point to a law stating longarms are excluded from concealed carry law?

By definition, they do not qualify as being "capable of being concealed". Can you point to a law that contradicts the law which defines what is capable of being concealed? Yea, I didn't think so.

Dangerpin
06-25-2010, 1:18 PM
Ok, lets talk about this. The firearm was concealed. While 12025 talks of weapons capable of being concealed, the act of concealing a firearm is illegal..is it not?


Or in other words, only the act of concealing a concealable firearm is illegal. Concealing an unconcealable firearm is voodoo.

dieselpower
06-25-2010, 1:22 PM
By definition, they do not qualify as being "capable of being concealed". Can you point to a law that contradicts the law which defines what is capable of being concealed? Yea, I didn't think so.

its really not nesessry to be a jerk when we are talking about a civil debate here. Maybe you should wait for a reply before you force feed your line of thought down my throat. The fact you asked me to provide a rule of law, then stated i couldnt means you don't understand common civil debate.

This is why these threads get heated, when someone starts being a complete jerk, when the same reply at a kitchen table would win you a kick to the *** out the door. Just because you are safe hiding behind your computer doesnt give you the right to act this way.

12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which contains or consists of any flechette dart, any bullet containing or carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst trigger activator, any nunchaku, any short-barreled shotgun, any short-barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol, any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy, sandclub, sap, or sandbag.

12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when he or she does any of the following:

(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.



12026.2. (a) Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the following:
5) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going directly to, or coming directly from, a fixed place of business or private residential property for the purpose of the lawful repair or the lawful transfer, sale, or loan of that firearm.
(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a), while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d), and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

So I RESPECTFULLY ask again, since this person was in fact carring a firearm that was concealed from view, became legal simply because it was a rifle? I have more to say, but will wait your reply.

ojisan
06-25-2010, 1:34 PM
OP: Yes, it was legal.
It's safest to have the case locked in case you accidentally enter into a GFSZ.
Here's a thread on "Guitar Parties", keep searching and there is more info to be had.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=310939&highlight=guitar

DanHuuN
06-25-2010, 1:41 PM
Legal!

"12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when he or she does any of the following:

(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person."

Since it is in a case, it is not ON "his or her person" it's more so in "his or her POSSESSION."

You're friend is A-OK!

dieselpower
06-25-2010, 2:04 PM
Legal!

"12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when he or she does any of the following:

(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person."

Since it is in a case, it is not ON "his or her person" it's more so in "his or her POSSESSION."

You're friend is A-OK!

which means I can walk around with an unloaded glock in a purse...Right???? I can also carry full magazines for said Glock in the same purse...RIGHT???

you cant have it both ways without showing a rifle is exempt somehow from being..." OTHER FIREARM"....

CSACANNONEER
06-25-2010, 2:04 PM
its really not nesessry to be a jerk when we are talking about a civil debate here. Maybe you should wait for a reply before you force feed your line of thought down my throat. The fact you asked me to provide a rule of law, then stated i couldnt means you don't understand common civil debate.

This is why these threads get heated, when someone starts being a complete jerk, when the same reply at a kitchen table would win you a kick to the *** out the door. Just because you are safe hiding behind your computer doesnt give you the right to act this way.

12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which contains or consists of any flechette dart, any bullet containing or carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst trigger activator, any nunchaku, any short-barreled shotgun, any short-barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol, any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy, sandclub, sap, or sandbag.

12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when he or she does any of the following:

(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.



12026.2. (a) Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the following:
5) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going directly to, or coming directly from, a fixed place of business or private residential property for the purpose of the lawful repair or the lawful transfer, sale, or loan of that firearm.
(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a), while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d), and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

So I RESPECTFULLY ask again, since this person was in fact carring a firearm that was concealed from view, became legal simply because it was a rifle? I have more to say, but will wait your reply.

Sorry for being a jerk. I'm probably one of the easiest calgunners to find (I've had 100s of calgunners come to my homes). So, I really don't think that I'm hiding behind a keyboard. (On a personal note, your still more than welcome to come see/shoot a Saiga and an AK or two to compare them.)


I thought it was completely clear in post #2 that since a long gun does not fit the definition of a "firearm capable of being concealed", there is no way that one could rightfully be convicted of concealing a rifle. The fact that federal law REQUIRES all firearms (with certain exceptions) to be transported through GFSZs in locked containers, should be enough proof that it is legal to do so. "Undetectable firearms" are things like cel phone guns, wallet guns, guns capable of firing while in a briefcase, etc.

Going back to the original post, I believe that it would also have been legal for him to carry a handgun into the restaurant as long as it was unloaded, in a locked container and the bossiness was not a posted GFZ.

Of course, I'm not an attorney. My thoughts are given for entertainment value only and should not be viewed as legal advise. If you want to know how a situation might play out in your area, contact your County DA's office. Every DA will have a slightly different opinion of how to interpret the law and each will decide to prosecute or not based on their own interpretation of the law.

Vtec44
06-25-2010, 2:09 PM
I thought it was completely clear in post #2 that since a long gun does not fit the definition of a "firearm capable of being concealed", there is no way that one could rightfully be convicted of concealing a rifle.

For clarification purposes can you, or anyone, point me to the PC in which it defines a firearm with 16" barrel is considered non-concealable?

dieselpower
06-25-2010, 2:15 PM
Sorry for being a jerk. I'm probably one of the easiest calgunners to find (I've had 100s of calgunners come to my homes). So, I really don't think that I'm hiding behind a keyboard. (On a personal note, your still more than welcome to come see/shoot a Saiga and an AK or two to compare them.)


I thought it was completely clear in post #2 that since a long gun does not fit the definition of a "firearm capable of being concealed", there is no way that one could rightfully be convicted of concealing a rifle. The fact that federal law REQUIRES all firearms (with certain exceptions) to be transported through GFSZs in locked containers, should be enough proof that it is legal to do so. "Undetectable firearms" are things like cel phone guns, wallet guns, guns capable of firing while in a briefcase, etc.

Going back to the original post, I believe that it would also have been legal for him to carry a handgun into the restaurant as long as it was unloaded, in a locked container and the bossiness was not a posted GFZ.

Of course, I'm not an attorney. My thoughts are given for entertainment value only and should not be viewed as legal advise. If you want to know how a situation might play out in your area, contact your County DA's office. Every DA will have a slightly different opinion of how to interpret the law and each will decide to prosecute or not based on their own interpretation of the law.

Thank you on both counts.

IICR
The pivot in the arguement on rifles being ok to be carried in an unlocked case rests on if a rifle can be concealed, not on them being ruled that can't. So if someone can prove they have been ruled to be exempt,this stops all LEO slinging the rifle to the side and put on a trench coat. the coat then fully conceals the rifle from view, making the rifle a concealable firearm and illegal to carry in an unlocked case.

DanHuuN
06-25-2010, 2:20 PM
which means I can walk around with an unloaded glock in a purse...Right???? I can also carry full magazines for said Glock in the same purse...RIGHT???

you cant have it both ways without showing a rifle is exempt somehow from being..." OTHER FIREARM"....

No, I'm not sure of the P.C. on it, but Handguns need to be in a locked container. Long guns dont need to locked.

Also, a loaded magazine in the same "container" as a firearm in legal. Ultimately it is whether or not the firearm(s) itself is loaded.

I had this issue in Hunterspoint where I work in SF. My DL came back as "revoked" so they were going to tow my car and had to clear everything. The officer told me that my ammo and gun had to be separated in 2 different "containers." FUD. I told him to show me the P.C. where my firearm and ammo needed to be separate. NOTHING.

Fate
06-25-2010, 2:21 PM
For clarification purposes can you, or anyone, point me to the PC in which it defines a firearm with 16" barrel is considered non-concealable?

Easy...

12001. (a) (1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol,"
"revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person"
shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a
weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any
explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less
than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that
has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be
interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.

Dangerpin
06-25-2010, 2:22 PM
12001. (a)(1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.

DanHuuN
06-25-2010, 2:26 PM
SHOTGUNS AND RIFLES

Nonconcealable firearms (rifles and shotguns) are not generally covered within the provisions of California Penal Code section 12025 and therefore are not required to be transported in a locked container. However, as with any firearm, nonconcealable firearms must be unloaded while they are being transported. A rifle or shotgun that is defined as an assault weapon pursuant to Penal Code 12276 or 12276.1 must be transported in accordance with Penal Code section 12026.1.

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/travel.php

dieselpower
06-25-2010, 2:26 PM
Thank you fate and Danger.

We now see clearly and legally a rifle is not covered under concealed carry laws.

edit, Sorry Dan, no points for quoting web pages, even ones from .gov. Its the law as written or nothing else.

DanHuuN
06-25-2010, 2:29 PM
edit, Sorry Dan, no points for quoting web pages, even ones from .gov. Its the law as written or nothing else.

Lol, not trying get points, simply using the resources available to put down the info.

dieselpower
06-25-2010, 2:33 PM
Lol, not trying get points, simply using the resources available to put down the info.

LOL..its cool man. I am a firm believer in opencarry.org and just wanted to push some buttons here. people dont just need quick answers, they need the facts.

give a man a fish, or teach a man to fish, even better, teach him to make a fishing pole.

CSACANNONEER
06-25-2010, 2:35 PM
SHOTGUNS AND RIFLES

Nonconcealable firearms (rifles and shotguns) are not generally covered within the provisions of California Penal Code section 12025 and therefore are not required to be transported in a locked container. However, as with any firearm, nonconcealable firearms must be unloaded while they are being transported. A rifle or shotgun that is defined as an assault weapon pursuant to Penal Code 12276 or 12276.1 must be transported in accordance with Penal Code section 12026.1.

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/travel.php

Not only shotguns and rifles fall into this category. ALL firearms with +16" barrels do. This means, one could have a SBR or SBS with a +16" barrel but, it's OAL makes it a SBR or SBS. Or, it could be a title one firearm with a +16" barrel and not should stock. Think about a 1919, AR long gun with a +16" barrel but, no stock has ever been attached to it, a PG only Mossberg 500 which has never had a should stock (not a "shotgun" by legal definition), etc.

ojisan
06-25-2010, 2:36 PM
The officer told me that my ammo and gun had to be separated in 2 different "containers." FUD. I told him to show me the P.C. where my firearm and ammo needed to be separate. NOTHING.

Just info...Federal law is guns and ammo separate and not within reach of the driver. Lots of old timers still go by this Federal law because that's all they know and that is all there was back in the day.

Sec. 926A. Interstate transportation of firearms
Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or
regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person
who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting,
shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a
firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully
possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully
possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the
firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being
transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the
passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in
the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driverís
compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked
container other than the glove compartment or console.

faterikcartman
06-25-2010, 2:37 PM
As an aside, I have walked through casino floors several times with a cased long gun. I hope casinos in Nevada aren't gun free zones.

CSACANNONEER
06-25-2010, 2:40 PM
As an aside, I have walked through casino floors several times with a cased long gun. I hope casinos in Nevada aren't gun free zones.

No, I think you walked through casinos with your band instruments. Right? But, casinos are not GFZs. Some even hold gun shows in them.

winnre
06-25-2010, 2:43 PM
from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion

That's because explosions only happen in black powder firearms. I remember the case where the guy walked for CCW because the weapon was not a weapon according to the law. With this in mind, I guess air guns are still safe.

ke6guj
06-25-2010, 2:44 PM
No, I think you walked through casinos with your band instruments. Right? But, casinos are not GFZs. Some even hold gun shows in them.yup, I've seen that. You could see the tourists going :eek: with all the attendees walking through the gaming floor with rifles slung over their back when they were walking from the convention area in order to get to their cars.

CSACANNONEER
06-25-2010, 2:46 PM
yup, I've seen that. You could see the tourists going :eek: with all the attendees walking through the gaming floor with rifles slung over their back when they were walking from the convention area in order to get to their cars.

Funny thing, I never noticed that at SHOT though. I have seen some weird reactions at the GSR in Reno though.

faterikcartman
06-25-2010, 2:49 PM
yup, I've seen that. You could see the tourists going :eek: with all the attendees walking through the gaming floor with rifles slung over their back when they were walking from the convention area in order to get to their cars.

Not during SHOT or a show, just traveling to Reno or LV for a shoot I will stay in a casino hotel.

The best one was a drunk dude carrying on about how he knew I had a gun in there and asking if I were a mob hit man. He must have seen Bugsy or Casino too many times. Funny though.

I hope the OP doesn't mind a thread hijack here since his question has been answered, but my municipality bans the discharge of firearms, but doesn't define firearms. Anyone here (many seem very knowledgeable) want to venture a guess about whether or not firing an air rifle is legal?

Vtec44
06-25-2010, 2:58 PM
Thanks guys for posting the PC code. :)

paul0660
06-25-2010, 3:14 PM
Sec. 926A. Interstate transportation of firearms
Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or
regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person
who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting,
shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a
firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully
possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully
possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the
firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being
transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the
passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in
the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driverís
compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked
container other than the glove compartment or console.

I read this a few times, and do not see where it says ammo and gun need to be separated.........

Fate
06-25-2010, 3:14 PM
LOL..its cool man. I am a firm believer in opencarry.org and just wanted to push some buttons here. people dont just need quick answers, they need the facts.

give a man a fish, or teach a man to fish, even better, teach him to make a fishing pole.
So you admit to trolling. I wondered how anyone could truthfully be so consistently off base (in multiple threads) when quoting the Penal Code. Now I get it. You're a troll.

Dangerpin
06-25-2010, 3:32 PM
I read this a few times, and do not see where it says ammo and gun need to be separated.........

I'm totally with you on that.

dieselpower
06-25-2010, 3:40 PM
Just info...Federal law is guns and ammo separate and not within reach of the driver. Lots of old timers still go by this Federal law because that's all they know and that is all there was back in the day.

Sec. 926A. Interstate transportation of firearms
Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or
regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person
who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting,
shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a
firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully
possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully
possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the
firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being
transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the
passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in
the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s
compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked
container other than the glove compartment or console.

I view 926a like I now view 12026.1

they are both exceptions to the rule, not the rule. This helped me understand 12026.1 when i was told 926a was the same thing.

926a states, when no other law is broken, a person can transport between States, a firearm and ammo, to and from any legal place, as long as the firearm is unloaded and in a locked container not accessable to persons.

Its just like you you read 12026.1 you think the only way to transport a firearm is in a locked case, when that isnt true. 12026.1 is an exeption to 12025.

926a Interstate transportation of firearms, not transporting firearm within a State. Crossing a State line with a personal firearm means I am subject to each States laws. Its only when they are not personnel firearms or I am staying, where i can run afoul of 926a.
At least thats what i was told.

safewaysecurity
06-25-2010, 3:53 PM
Haha yea I remember when the GSR in Reno had a Gun Show and al these Redneck looking people werewalking away with rifles to the parking lot. All the california looking people were like OMGZZZ WTF!!!??!?! I actually saw the most redneck thing ever at that gun show. It was your typical picnic cooler but it was converted into an electric wheel chair... but is it legal to carry a 16" + firearm like an AR-15 in the streets of cali legally since you said they don't have to be in a lock container because they are not concealable.

ke6guj
06-25-2010, 3:54 PM
Funny thing, I never noticed that at SHOT though. I have seen some weird reactions at the GSR in Reno though.

Well, since at SHOT, you don't have a lot of personal owned long guns being carried by attendees, it isnt' as common, but one year that I went to SHOT, early 2000's, there was a collector gun show held in the Mandalay Bay convention center that same weekend that went to as well. In that case, there were plenty of long guns slung over shoulders walking from the convention center through the gaming floor to the parking lot.

That gun show is where I saw, for the first time, a Holland & Holland bespoke shotgun with matching barrels in .410, 28g, 20g, and 12g. Price, a nice $280,000 IIRC :eek:

DanHuuN
06-25-2010, 4:01 PM
So you admit to trolling. I wondered how anyone could truthfully be so consistently off base (in multiple threads) when quoting the Penal Code. Now I get it. You're a troll.

+1 on this!

paul0660
06-25-2010, 4:24 PM
At least thats what i was told.


LOL

CSACANNONEER
06-25-2010, 8:11 PM
Well, since at SHOT, you don't have a lot of personal owned long guns being carried by attendees, it isnt' as common, but one year that I went to SHOT, early 2000's, there was a collector gun show held in the Mandalay Bay convention center that same weekend that went to as well. In that case, there were plenty of long guns slung over shoulders walking from the convention center through the gaming floor to the parking lot.

That gun show is where I saw, for the first time, a Holland & Holland bespoke shotgun with matching barrels in .410, 28g, 20g, and 12g. Price, a nice $280,000 IIRC :eek:

I forget what year that was. But, I remember it since, it was my first SHOT Show.

randy
06-26-2010, 12:02 AM
Getting back to the original post I would have left it in the car. Much less chance of getting it stolen than hassled that way.

maxwellca21
06-26-2010, 12:14 AM
Can you get that hand in black? My friend is black....

lol